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It is really a lame kind of puritanism to get into a moral panic over the IoM. Fact is GW plagiarise EVERYTHING for making their IP. The IoM is smorgasbord rip off of historical Rome, the Holy Roman Empire, Tsarist Russia, Spanish Inquisition, Communist Russia and also other fiction including Dune (god emperor), Starship Troopers, Lovecraft and so much else.

40k Stalinist: I gotta admit that I love the IoM for the commissars, forced labour gulags, arbitrary executions, cult of personality and brainwashing but I am not 100% sure the totalitarianism that I see and love in 40k wears the right colour shirt? Maybe we should unironically send some inquisitors round to root out the wrongthink?

Tiberias wrote:


I think you entirely missed my point. At no point in any post in this thread or other threads you and I have spoken about this have I argued that the imperium is in any way justified or right in what they are doing to mutants, untrained psykers etc.
Also my point about other races was not about how they are worth less then humans within the lore, but how they work differently both their anatomy and psykic resonance in the warp and that is just a fact within the lore.

You said that the Imperium was taking the expedient path in protecting itself from psykers and mutants, which is not true. So no, I didn't miss your point, I just don't agree with it.

Tiberias wrote:
I am not quite sure anymore what your point is. You say GW should focus more on the ugly sides of the imperium. If they write about the heroic cadian solider to pick up the example from before, do they have to spell out in that same novel that the imperium is evil and a total crapstate? Is it about the ratio between the number of novels and shortstories where they write about the heroic cadian soldier as compared to stories about cadian soldiers killing innocent mutants for no reason?

When the Imperium is invariably portrayed as the heroes of stories but on the other hand they're in favor of murderous eugenics, ethnic cleansing, and other stuff, and factions like the Eldar and Kroot aren't, but are portrayed more villainously more often, there's a problem. The ratio is important for the purposes of presentation, yes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 RegularGuy wrote:
My God, it's like growing up in the 80s with Satanic Panic all over again.. No, playing a wizard will not make your child a devil worshiper. No, playing warhammer will not make your child or anyone else into a Nazi. No, censorship and a crusade to rid the world of all wrongthink is not the answer.

On the other hand, supporting the IoM as justified or laudable is morally wrongheaded too.

soviet13 wrote:
I don't think it's correct to say that the setting is no longer presented ironically. I think it's fair to say that things are often now presented from an Imperial propaganda perspective, and this can make the satire seem to have been diluted, but it's still there. I suspect they think it goes without saying that the IoM is a horrible fascist state and that they don't therefore need to spell it out directly. It may be that some of that subtext gets lost when translated to other markets and cultures including the US.

Well no, it's more than that. There's been a significant shift over the years towards portraying Imperium characters in a less satirical light, with Guilliman being probably the highest profile example. There's really no satire to Guilliman - he's basically just a classic serious hero protagonist - and he's now effectively the face of the Imperium. Even the forces he's portrayed as fighting against are more hide-bound bureaucrats than fascists. I'm not suggesting it's GW's intent, but it's very easy for an authoritarian-minded person to look at Guilliman's story and read it as a heroic strong-man outsider battling against a "deep state."

GW's painted themselves into a bit of a corner here with a shift in the tone, ironically in what I think must have been an attempt to appeal to a wider, more diverse audience.

I guess the Tyranid faction was an evil plot by GW to promote communism. Or maybe they just ripped off Starship Troopers, take your pick.

Well but that sort-of makes the opposite point, doesn't it? Nobody looks at GSC and thinks "that's what we should emulate! they're the good guys!" The whole faction is designed as a satire of worker rebellions, with the sucker-punch at the end being that after you've overthrown your oppressors, the aliens you hailed as your savior show up and eat your brains.

Meanwhile, it's very possible to look at Guilliman and say "he's the good guy!" and from there someone so inclined can pretty easily get to: "he just needs to get rid of all the swamp-dwelling deep state operatives and he can make the Imperium of Man great again the way it used to be!"

By creating unabashed heroes to be the Imperium's new POV characters - and particularly by reaching back into the Imperium's supposedly glorious past to do so - they've created a narrative that can be read in a pro-alt-right way in a way the prior one couldn't. It certainly isn't intended to be - if nothing else, alt-right stuff is bad for business - but it *can* be.

Personally I don't think it takes very long or a very deep study to notice that the IOM and Marines are not good guys, even my 10 year old decided his chapter was a renegade from the IOM and doesn't partake in all their nonsense. If a kid that old can figure it out, we don't need to wring our hands unduly I think.

In fact, we locked on the theory that the Emperor is really a the Chaos God Malice, and that explains the ins and outs of the imperium and why it is the way it is pretty well. Mind you we were able to keep in mind that all of this is fiction anyway without any trouble.

So as far as OP's original fear:

because when you are faced with it, really faced with the realization that supporting Warhammer 40k monetarily (by purchasing its products etc.) or otherwise – might grow a franchise that will only encourage more fascists more than most any other IP…is sort of a disgusting possibility. Again, please disprove me on any of this if you’re able; it’s why I’m here.

We want to deny that, thoroughly – but I fear it’s just the truth. That IS the fact of the matter, I fear, even if it is only to a small degree, which is unfortunately unlike any other IP I’m aware of. And boy is today not a great day and age to be encouraging hatred in.

I find it experientially to be unfounded. Just as fear from the old neighbor lady about Harry Potter turning my child into a stanist was equally unfounded.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Well but that sort-of makes the opposite point, doesn't it? Nobody looks at GSC and thinks "that's what we should emulate! they're the good guys!" The whole faction is designed as a satire of worker rebellions, with the sucker-punch at the end being that after you've overthrown your oppressors, the aliens you hailed as your savior show up and eat your brains.

Meanwhile, it's very possible to look at Guilliman and say "he's the good guy!" and from there someone so inclined can pretty easily get to: "he just needs to get rid of all the swamp-dwelling deep state operatives and he can make the Imperium of Man great again the way it used to be!"

By creating unabashed heroes to be the Imperium's new POV characters - and particularly by reaching back into the Imperium's supposedly glorious past to do so - they've created a narrative that can be read in a pro-alt-right way in a way the prior one couldn't. It certainly isn't intended to be - if nothing else, alt-right stuff is bad for business - but it *can* be.

The IoM aren't the "good guys" unless you are just being anthropocentric, which ironically would be actual racism. Every faction in 40k universe are shades of grey, or rather grimdark, the IoM included. A lot of what makes them grimdark / dystopian was plagiarised from the history of communism actually. Eg: commissars, purges.

 SolarCross wrote:
I guess the Tyranid faction was an evil plot by GW to promote communism. Or maybe they just ripped off Starship Troopers, take your pick.

Definitely one of those.

We should have a 9+ page thread to determine wich.

 SolarCross wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Well but that sort-of makes the opposite point, doesn't it? Nobody looks at GSC and thinks "that's what we should emulate! they're the good guys!" The whole faction is designed as a satire of worker rebellions, with the sucker-punch at the end being that after you've overthrown your oppressors, the aliens you hailed as your savior show up and eat your brains.

Meanwhile, it's very possible to look at Guilliman and say "he's the good guy!" and from there someone so inclined can pretty easily get to: "he just needs to get rid of all the swamp-dwelling deep state operatives and he can make the Imperium of Man great again the way it used to be!"

By creating unabashed heroes to be the Imperium's new POV characters - and particularly by reaching back into the Imperium's supposedly glorious past to do so - they've created a narrative that can be read in a pro-alt-right way in a way the prior one couldn't. It certainly isn't intended to be - if nothing else, alt-right stuff is bad for business - but it *can* be.

The IoM aren't the "good guys" unless you are just being anthropocentric, which ironically would be actual racism. Every faction in 40k universe are shades of grey, or rather grimdark, the IoM included. A lot of what makes them grimdark / dystopian was plagiarised from the history of communism actually. Eg: commissars, purges.

plagurized from communism, fascism, the worst excesses of capitalism etc. 40k basicly took the the worst huimanity has done to itself under every system and packaged them together

Well but again that's kinda the point: we now have the major Imperium POV character *not* being grimdark in any significant way. He'd fit in in your average superhero movie with no real problem. And he's got a whole bunch of new literal ubermenschen to do his bidding as he seeks to Make the Imperium Great Again, and his message is basically: it's not the fault of the Emperor that the Imperium sucks so much, it's the fault of the deep state that has corrupted his vision. And the solution is to give all power to the strong military man who knows best how to protect us all from the enemies within and without.

I'm not saying this is the read GW intends - it clearly isn't - but it's made possible by the shift towards more conventionally heroic POV characters. Although GW was trying to do the complete opposite, it's created a bit of an opening for the alt-right to project its own idiocy onto the setting, in a way that just didn't work in the older version of the IP. It's not a coincidence that we're having this discussion about fascism and 40k in 2020, and not in 1985 or 1990.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Well but again that's kinda the point: we now have the major Imperium POV character *not* being grimdark in any significant way. He'd fit in in your average superhero movie with no real problem. And he's got a whole bunch of new literal ubermenschen to do his bidding as he seeks to Make the Imperium Great Again, and his message is basically: it's not the fault of the Emperor that the Imperium sucks so much, it's the fault of the deep state that has corrupted his vision. And the solution is to give all power to the strong military man who knows best how to protect us all from the enemies within and without.

I'm not saying this is the read GW intends - it clearly isn't - but it's made possible by the shift towards more conventionally heroic POV characters. Although GW was trying to do the complete opposite, it's created a bit of an opening for the alt-right to project its own idiocy onto the setting, in a way that just didn't work in the older version of the IP. It's not a coincidence that we're having this discussion about fascism and 40k in 2020, and not in 1985 or 1990.

I also want to point out a certain political group literally took the design of the emperor and just stuck their chosen politician's head on the body. They don't see the IoM as the bad guy apparently, but as a goal to aim for.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Well but again that's kinda the point: we now have the major Imperium POV character *not* being grimdark in any significant way. He'd fit in in your average superhero movie with no real problem. And he's got a whole bunch of new literal ubermenschen to do his bidding as he seeks to Make the Imperium Great Again, and his message is basically: it's not the fault of the Emperor that the Imperium sucks so much, it's the fault of the deep state that has corrupted his vision. And the solution is to give all power to the strong military man who knows best how to protect us all from the enemies within and without.

The novel Dark Imperium doesn't seem to suggest that at all. Guilliman is pretty disillusioned with the Emperor, as well as with the current Imperium. He seems to be fighting to preserve some kind of human polity while hoping to change it towards something a bit less insane...though the hints we get are that he is having to make compromises of convenience in order to maintain the fight against the myriad of threats. Also he keeps being forced to run around troubleshooting and therefore does not seem to succeed in enacting permanent rational change. He is like a torch shedding a little light around him, but the darkness closes in again as soon as he moves elsewhere, and he seems to be failing overall in actually making significant lasting reform. We are seeing a non-grimdark hero fighting and failing to change the grimdark Imperium. So far at best he is just shoring it up militarily so that it doesn't totally collapse, so he's winning battles but losing the long war.

Guilliman may very well be trying to save everything and therefore failing to save anything.

 Wolfblade wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Well but again that's kinda the point: we now have the major Imperium POV character *not* being grimdark in any significant way. He'd fit in in your average superhero movie with no real problem. And he's got a whole bunch of new literal ubermenschen to do his bidding as he seeks to Make the Imperium Great Again, and his message is basically: it's not the fault of the Emperor that the Imperium sucks so much, it's the fault of the deep state that has corrupted his vision. And the solution is to give all power to the strong military man who knows best how to protect us all from the enemies within and without.

I'm not saying this is the read GW intends - it clearly isn't - but it's made possible by the shift towards more conventionally heroic POV characters. Although GW was trying to do the complete opposite, it's created a bit of an opening for the alt-right to project its own idiocy onto the setting, in a way that just didn't work in the older version of the IP. It's not a coincidence that we're having this discussion about fascism and 40k in 2020, and not in 1985 or 1990.

I also want to point out a certain political group literally took the design of the emperor and just stuck their chosen politician's head on the body. They don't see the IoM as the bad guy apparently, but as a goal to aim for.

I thought that was a float in Italy for a festival? And that was parody and more mockery than trying to show them in a positive light?

Well right, but again, that can be worked into the alt right interpretation: Guilliman is struggling against the power of the swamp and the deep state, and what he needs is more ruthless strong men who can do what needs to be done to purge the enemies within in order to protect humanity. If anything, in this read Guilliman's flaw is that he isn't as ruthless as the Emperor was.

This doesn't seem likely to be the story GW is trying to tell, but it shows how you can get in a muddle by introducing non-satirical, non-grimdark elements into what was a grimdark satire. It's hard for the viewer to know what they're supposed to make of it, and that tends to result in people just seeing in it whatever they are predisposed to see.

Arcanis161 wrote:

 Wolfblade wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Well but again that's kinda the point: we now have the major Imperium POV character *not* being grimdark in any significant way. He'd fit in in your average superhero movie with no real problem. And he's got a whole bunch of new literal ubermenschen to do his bidding as he seeks to Make the Imperium Great Again, and his message is basically: it's not the fault of the Emperor that the Imperium sucks so much, it's the fault of the deep state that has corrupted his vision. And the solution is to give all power to the strong military man who knows best how to protect us all from the enemies within and without.

I'm not saying this is the read GW intends - it clearly isn't - but it's made possible by the shift towards more conventionally heroic POV characters. Although GW was trying to do the complete opposite, it's created a bit of an opening for the alt-right to project its own idiocy onto the setting, in a way that just didn't work in the older version of the IP. It's not a coincidence that we're having this discussion about fascism and 40k in 2020, and not in 1985 or 1990.

I also want to point out a certain political group literally took the design of the emperor and just stuck their chosen politician's head on the body. They don't see the IoM as the bad guy apparently, but as a goal to aim for.

I thought that was a float in Italy for a festival? And that was parody and more mockery than trying to show them in a positive light?

I don't think it matters what the original intention was considering those who support it take and view it as a serious tribute to him and his perceived greatness and ignore the context around it and have replicated it in various forms of artwork.

FWIW I think there is a much larger number of alt-righters using the Trump-Emperor thing as a meme who know nothing or next to nothing about 40k and just think it looks cool than actual 40k fans doing it.

Either way, that's probably far enough to pursue that particular tangent.

Didn't read through the whole thread but some of this stuff sounds pretty depressing.

Tony Cottrell should apologise for his remark to that gentleman. Piss poor coming from someone like him.
And this Arch dude has something against Saamelaiset? He is on my naughty list now. Saamedikki FTW!

GW needs to reintroduce Rainbow Warriors back as a canonized SM Chapter, needs to write some BL books about female inquisitors exterminating overly zealous SM factions, and as a cherry on top, Lion El Johnson needs to come out of the closet. Dark Angels chapter's history is pretty queer, it needs to be highlighted more.

In hindsight, the RT lore was a bit smarter in how it dealt with the setting. Bring back more of it!

Human ideologies and behaviors effectively encourage hatred, not the games, not the movies, not the comics. The only way games, movies, comics can encourage hatred is when they are used like a media to spread an ideology, but usually when something like that happens, the customers start to complain and they quit the franchise, but thankfully this is something that isn't yet happened in the GW games. So I think we can say W40k can have a lot of flaws, but not this one.

Hecaton wrote:

Tiberias wrote:


I think you entirely missed my point. At no point in any post in this thread or other threads you and I have spoken about this have I argued that the imperium is in any way justified or right in what they are doing to mutants, untrained psykers etc.
Also my point about other races was not about how they are worth less then humans within the lore, but how they work differently both their anatomy and psykic resonance in the warp and that is just a fact within the lore.

You said that the Imperium was taking the expedient path in protecting itself from psykers and mutants, which is not true. So no, I didn't miss your point, I just don't agree with it.

Careful there now. I said that they do that, but at no point did I say they take the expedient path by doing that. I said it poses an interesting and uncomfortable quetion to the reader. Don't put words in my mouth, I really don't like that.

 tauist wrote:
Didn't read through the whole thread but some of this stuff sounds pretty depressing.

Tony Cottrell should apologise for his remark to that gentleman. Piss poor coming from someone like him.
And this Arch dude has something against Saamelaiset? He is on my naughty list now. Saamedikki FTW!

GW needs to reintroduce Rainbow Warriors back as a canonized SM Chapter, needs to write some BL books about female inquisitors exterminating overly zealous SM factions, and as a cherry on top, Lion El Johnson needs to come out of the closet. Dark Angels chapter's history is pretty queer, it needs to be highlighted more.

In hindsight, the RT lore was a bit smarter in how it dealt with the setting. Bring back more of it!

I think they should play against type and have the Rainbow Warriors be like... blood sacrifice Aztecs who fell to Khorne. Don't need to make them queer.

The Lion, OTOH, just needs to come out of the closet.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Tiberias wrote:


Careful there now. I said that they do that, but at no point did I say they take the expedient path by doing that. I said it poses an interesting and uncomfortable quetion to the reader. Don't put words in my mouth, I really don't like that.

I'm not putting words in your mouth. You were saying that the physically deformed (or "mutants") posed an existential threat to the Imperium, which is just flat out untrue. Even psykers can be dealt with without genocide, as every species except for the humans in the IoM does. The point is this - they are only dangerous to the Imperium because the Imperium stubbornly refuses to employ non-genocidal means of dealing with them. So it's not really an uncomfortable question posed to the reader, unless you take the latter-day GW fluff as canon and go "Oh, all the good people are into genocide, why aren't I?"

@Hecaton

Yes, yes you are. I said they pose a threat and they do. I said the Imperium doesn't differentiate the individual case, because they don't care. Human unchecked psykers pose a threat to open a gateway for demons since human minds are more susceptible towards the whispers of demons and that is established lore. Genestealer cults also exist for example so mutants can pose a threat to a human populated planet, that is also established lore.
I did NOT say that how the imperium deals with it was expedient, but rather how brutally they don't care todifferentiate the individual case poses and interesting question to the reader and I've explained this multiple times now. Stop playing gotcha with me, I was really trying to have a conversation in good faith with you and engage with the points you had made, but I'm almost done trying to do that when you continue to try to color me like I support something like that. [b]

 tauist wrote:

GW needs to reintroduce Rainbow Warriors back as a canonized SM Chapter,...

Rainbow Warriors never left. Not sure what you're picturing them as, but they're supposed to be Polynesian - inspired.

No.
It's like the people who think Tyler Durden was a role model or that ceasers legion was a good choice for the mojave.
They missed the point, it's not the source materials fault they are stupid.

 insaniak wrote:

 tauist wrote:

GW needs to reintroduce Rainbow Warriors back as a canonized SM Chapter,...

Rainbow Warriors never left. Not sure what you're picturing them as, but they're supposed to be Polynesian - inspired.

Any recent examples of them in the lore? I seem to have missed them

Tiberias wrote:
@Hecaton

Yes, yes you are.

Nope.

Tiberias wrote:

I said they pose a threat and they do.

You're just blatantly wrong here. How are non-psychic mutants inherently a threat to the Imperium?

Tiberias wrote:

I said the Imperium doesn't differentiate the individual case, because they don't care.

If that's the case, then given what I said above, it paints the Imperium as morally bankrupt, no uncomfortable questions asked. If, as you say, it's asking unconfortable questions of the reader because it's so effective, or, in other words, expedient, then I'm right about what you said.

Tiberias wrote:

Human unchecked psykers pose a threat to open a gateway for demons since human minds are more susceptible towards the whispers of demons and that is established lore.

Human psykers aren't any more or less vulnerable to demons than other races' psykers. The Imperium just refuses to deal with the problem in an intelligent way and would rather tyrannize and murder. This is emphatically *not* established lore.

Tiberias wrote:

Genestealer cults also exist for example so mutants can pose a threat to a human populated planet, that is also established lore.

Genestealers don't create mutants, they create human/alien hybrida. Moreover, killing kids with harelips doesn't stop genestealer infestations, it just makes the problem worse because your population will start looking elsewhere for succour. But the Imperium is full speed ahead on the kid-murdering.

Tiberias wrote:

I did NOT say that how the imperium deals with it was expedient, but rather how brutally they don't care todifferentiate the individual case poses and interesting question to the reader and I've explained this multiple times now. Stop playing gotcha with me, I was really trying to have a conversation in good faith with you and engage with the points you had made, but I'm almost done trying to do that when you continue to try to color me like I support something like that. [b]

You didn't use that word, but you implied it when you said that the Imperium's treatment of those born with physical deformities should posit uncomfortable questions. Put simply, the Imperiums's treatment of such people is both needlessly cruel and absolutely ineffective at protecting itself. It's actually counterproductive, because if your kid is born with a harelip, or his limbs didn't develop properly because of the toxic chemicals in the factory you're forced to work in 15 hours a day mutating your sperm cells, why would you stay loyal to the Imperium? Your local Chaos cult thinks your kid's abnormalities are blessings from the gods, and is willing to help you hide them from the authorities.

You're continuing to work on circular logic that justifies the Imperium's atrocities from an out-of-universe perspective, and of course I'm going to call that out, because that's fethed UK p.

The_Grim_Angel wrote:
Human ideologies and behaviors effectively encourage hatred, not the games, not the movies, not the comics. The only way games, movies, comics can encourage hatred is when they are used like a media to spread an ideology, but usually when something like that happens, the customers start to complain and they quit the franchise, but thankfully this is something that isn't yet happened in the GW games. So I think we can say W40k can have a lot of flaws, but not this one.

Great point. This is essentially what I was trying to espouse last night.

40k is essentially just a grim backdrop where stories of armoured super soldiers stomping aliens can be set. You really do not need to look much deeper than that in anything other than imaginative speculation. You could contrast this to works like 1984 or brave new world, where the ideology is explicitly part of the story and also the message to be digested and thought about by the reader.

A similar example would be the 2000ad setting. The authoritarian hellscape of the megacities patrolled by extra judicial 'judges' who subjectively apply the law and pass sentences without any form of trial sounds to me as a liberal like some terrible nightmare, but I still enjoy the setting as a fictional backdrop for stories about 'good' guys stomping bad guys.

There is toxicity in the 40k community, but I think it has nothing to do with the lore. Rather I think it's connected to the competative nature of the game. That means WAAC people can sometimes choose go indulge in 40k and use their poor attitude to infect communities. Same with people who have superiority complex who think their models/collections are better or more legit than others.

The competative side of 40k has been reinforced by the increasing tournament scene. Now im not saying tournaments is bad, it just that it attracts people with weird attitude aswell as good ones.

As to the lore attracting nazis or whatever, its bs.

Hecaton wrote:

Tiberias wrote:
@Hecaton

Yes, yes you are.

Nope.

Yes you are.

Hecaton wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

I said they pose a threat and they do.

You're just blatantly wrong here. How are non-psychic mutants inherently a threat to the Imperium?

I didn't say that nor did I imply it. I said the imperium doesn't care to differentiate, which is evil and morally reprehensible for the last time, I don't know how often I have to spell this out for you.

Hecaton wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

I said the Imperium doesn't differentiate the individual case, because they don't care.

If that's the case, then given what I said above, it paints the Imperium as morally bankrupt, no uncomfortable questions asked. If, as you say, it's asking unconfortable questions of the reader because it's so effective, or, in other words, expedient, then I'm right about what you said.

And I agreed multiple times that the imperium is morally bankrupt. Both in this thread and multiple other threads about this topic I don't understand how this is a point of contention unless you seriously never properly read any of my posts.

Hecaton wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

Human unchecked psykers pose a threat to open a gateway for demons since human minds are more susceptible towards the whispers of demons and that is established lore.

Human psykers aren't any more or less vulnerable to demons than other races' psykers. The Imperium just refuses to deal with the problem in an intelligent way and would rather tyrannize and murder. This is emphatically *not* established lore.

Yes they are, this was the whole point of the emperor trying to complete his webway project as fast as possible, he wanted to limit exposure to the warp and guide humanity towards their evolution as a psykic race. Since you don't seem to get any of my points I'm still gonna spell it out for you. The emperor is still NOT a good guy, he is a genocidal maniac who dragged humanity forward kicking and screaming.

Hecaton wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

Genestealer cults also exist for example so mutants can pose a threat to a human populated planet, that is also established lore.

Genestealers don't create mutants, they create human/alien hybrida. Moreover, killing kids with harelips doesn't stop genestealer infestations, it just makes the problem worse because your population will start looking elsewhere for succour. But the Imperium is full speed ahead on the kid-murdering.

That is just arguing semantics now, the imperium can't and/or doesn't care to visually distinguish between alien/human hybrid and mutant. Again, is that evil YES for the last time.

Hecaton wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

I did NOT say that how the imperium deals with it was expedient, but rather how brutally they don't care todifferentiate the individual case poses and interesting question to the reader and I've explained this multiple times now. Stop playing gotcha with me, I was really trying to have a conversation in good faith with you and engage with the points you had made, but I'm almost done trying to do that when you continue to try to color me like I support something like that. [b]

You didn't use that word, but you implied it when you said that the Imperium's treatment of those born with physical deformities should posit uncomfortable questions. Put simply, the Imperiums's treatment of such people is both needlessly cruel and absolutely ineffective at protecting itself. It's actually counterproductive, because if your kid is born with a harelip, or his limbs didn't develop properly because of the toxic chemicals in the factory you're forced to work in 15 hours a day mutating your sperm cells, why would you stay loyal to the Imperium? Your local Chaos cult thinks your kid's abnormalities are blessings from the gods, and is willing to help you hide them from the authorities.

I didn't argue or imply any of that, are you kidding me? The uncomfortable question for me was this, again: We in our real life history have devolved into such cruelty for much less. If these threats were real or more tangible, would we devolve into such cruelty again and much more easily so?

Hecaton wrote:

You're continuing to work on circular logic that justifies the Imperium's atrocities from an out-of-universe perspective, and of course I'm going to call that out, because that's fethed UK p.

It's really ironic accusing me of using circular logic here. And accusing me of justifying the atrocities of the imperium is just absolutely beyond ridiculous. I am getting the impression that you did not actually read any of my posts or are purposuefully misinterpreting them to now try to colour me in a certain light. I am now done taking you seriously in any way shape or form.

Hoping that people will "get the joke" is not a guaranteed thing, as I said in my post back on page 5-6 using 4chan and incels as an example. This doesn't mean 40k will turn people into fascists*, but it will certainly appeal to them unless GW and the Community makes it clearer that the IoM is not a thing to emulate or admire. And the issue there is that GW themselves are basically doing nothing to address that whatsoever.

People earlier in this thread talk about how "obvious" it is that the Imperium is terrible and the bad guy, but I will bet good money you're all making these assumptions based on lore and background you read 20+ years ago. Try opening up and reading the 9th Edition Rulebook sometime and having a read of the lore. Sure, you can say it's written from an Imperial perspective, but there is no hint of irony or critique in it what presents, there are no smoking guns of "everything you just read is a load of bs". It is all presented as immutable and objective fact. The Imperium is justified in everything it does because of Apocalyptic Race War, Xenos are all to be exterminated and never to be trusted because of ancestral misdeeds and their inferiority to the superior Human form, the only way to avoid eternal damnation is to submit to worship of the Emperor completely and utterly and ask no questions. Nowhere is this more apparent in the lore for Marines, in both rulebook and Codex, where the negative aspects of them are completely downplayed and the usages of words like "Hero" and "Heroics" and "Defenders of Humanity" have increased tenfold. And this isn't even getting into the meta discussion surrounding Marines, where marketing on streams and Warcom will absolutely not address their problematic elements whatsoever. And of course it won't, because it's marketing, but it's basically the first thing people see and what they remember most. Hell, just look at how they market anything else; they're not afraid to address the scary or evil aspects of those things. Necrons are rightly treated as being evil and scary and that's a big selling point!

This thread is actually a perfect example of some not getting the joke or irony and the bringing up of Guilliman earlier encapsulates it perfectly. I won't repeat what others said about Guilliman's return and his portrayal being the most obvious example of turning the IoM into the good guys and how problematic that is, but in this very thread we've had people claiming that the tragedy of 40k IoM is how it fell from the lofty idealistic heights of the 30k Imperium. If you honestly believe that then congratulations you didn't "get the joke" and you didn't pick up on the "obvious" message. The Imperium of 10,000 years ago is just as vile and monstrous with the only differences being a slightly more efficient bureaucracy for 30k and the religious ideals of 40k being worn openly, rather than hidden behind some flimsy bs about the Imperial Truth (which in its entire structure is intensely religious and apes religious iconography and methods constantly anyway). If your skin didn't fething crawl in Horus Rising when Sindermann is giving a religious sermon that basically consists of saying "we're right because we're right and that means we are justified in anything we do" then yeah, I dunno. Or how about later in those early books with the Interex and how they live peacefully and in harmony with Aliens and how all of our PoV characters are disgusted and repulsed by it.

*Although in recent years I've seen an uptick of younger kids playing games in GW stores loudly and gleefully exclaiming how they're going to "purge the filthy xenos!" Which does make me a little uncomfortable I'm not gonna lie.