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Hecaton wrote:

Tiberias wrote:



On the other hand, supporting the IoM as justified or laudable is morally wrongheaded too.

And no one is lauding the IoM ITT.

 Bosskelot wrote:
*Although in recent years I've seen an uptick of younger kids playing games in GW stores loudly and gleefully exclaiming how they're going to "purge the filthy xenos!" Which does make me a little uncomfortable I'm not gonna lie.

I mean, that's part of the fun, isn't it?

But on a more serious note, why is that making you uncomfortable? It's clearly in the context of the game, it's like RPing a warrior in D&D and being happy that you managed to kill a dragon - why would that affect you like that?

 Bosskelot wrote:

*Although in recent years I've seen an uptick of younger kids playing games in GW stores loudly and gleefully exclaiming how they're going to "purge the filthy xenos!" Which does make me a little uncomfortable I'm not gonna lie.

How is someone saying a verbatim phrase from the setting whilst in a venue facilitating that setting in any way worrying?

 Wolfblade wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Well but again that's kinda the point: we now have the major Imperium POV character *not* being grimdark in any significant way. He'd fit in in your average superhero movie with no real problem. And he's got a whole bunch of new literal ubermenschen to do his bidding as he seeks to Make the Imperium Great Again, and his message is basically: it's not the fault of the Emperor that the Imperium sucks so much, it's the fault of the deep state that has corrupted his vision. And the solution is to give all power to the strong military man who knows best how to protect us all from the enemies within and without.

I'm not saying this is the read GW intends - it clearly isn't - but it's made possible by the shift towards more conventionally heroic POV characters. Although GW was trying to do the complete opposite, it's created a bit of an opening for the alt-right to project its own idiocy onto the setting, in a way that just didn't work in the older version of the IP. It's not a coincidence that we're having this discussion about fascism and 40k in 2020, and not in 1985 or 1990.

I also want to point out a certain political group literally took the design of the emperor and just stuck their chosen politician's head on the body. They don't see the IoM as the bad guy apparently, but as a goal to aim for.

I'm just going to note the Horus Heresy depicts the emperor as an incompetant narcisist whose utterly devoid of empathy and thus doomed to fail as a result....

BrianDavion wrote:


I'm just going to note the Horus Heresy depicts the emperor as an incompetant narcisist whose utterly devoid of empathy and thus doomed to fail as a result....

Problem is that those are all pretty much requirements for a fascistic strong man persona and people who are vulnerable to the arguments of fascism rarely see those qualities as weaknesses.

To me? No.

I am able to understand that a game is a game and it won’t alter my thinking or perspective in any way.
Back stories and fluff are just reading material and nothing more.

What does encourage hatred (in me at least) is when political/religious beliefs are forced on to something entirely separate from them.
There are people who’s entire point of existence seems to be to find or create patterns where none exist, or to alter context to fit an agenda.

If people are unable to keep reality and fantasy a separate entity then they are on a collision course with a wall.

However, this also comes from the fact that a lot of people are offended by everything these days.
There is a chance that just saying hi to someone could offend someone in some way.


Keep reality and war games separate, it’s a simple thing to do.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

 Bosskelot wrote:

*Although in recent years I've seen an uptick of younger kids playing games in GW stores loudly and gleefully exclaiming how they're going to "purge the filthy xenos!" Which does make me a little uncomfortable I'm not gonna lie.

How is someone saying a verbatim phrase from the setting whilst in a venue facilitating that setting in any way worrying?

I remember back in the day (late 90's) at the local GW store they used to determine first turn by who had the most compelling warcry (until the neighbouring stores got unhappy because apparently a bunch of teenagers screaming out "For the Emperor!!!" and "Waaaagh!!" at the top of their lungs a few times an hour was scaring off customers, lol).

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
No.
It's like the people who think Tyler Durden was a role model or that ceasers legion was a good choice for the mojave.
They missed the point, it's not the source materials fault they are stupid.

I dunno, it definitely does seem like there's a pattern of "the way something looks on the surface is all that matters to anyone" that shines through in all of these writings. You're not going to look at the cover of the 8th edition rulebook, point to the dude posed like God in the roof of the sistine chapel, surrounded by white light and go "ah yes, the bad guy."

It does seem like any time a villainous character is allowed to look cool and seem "savvy" or "smart" in a piece of media, there's a whole legion of idiots who will idolize them in a way they don't tend to idolize, say, Sauron from LOTR. They always seem to follow a similar pattern, too: Tyler Durden, Heath Ledger Joker, Hans Landa, The Punisher - them being Cool and Badass is the text, them being wrong is the subtext.

I also think it's pretty telling how many people will complain any time a character like that is portrayed like they reasonably would be - the reaction to Anakin Skywalker being portrayed as a whiny, bitchy manchild whose greatest victories in the films all involved murdering helpless, basically unarmed people was pretty negative because people just want Darth Vader to be a Cool Badass.

Jackal90: the creators of the game put political themes into it, you know? Like the did it on purpose. Because it makes it more compelling.

And I think no one is really saying that 40K is going to turn people fascist or whatever, we are commenting on it being popular with fascists.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:
But again, is that just being ascribed to it after the fact? Are sci do writers a bunch of closet racists? Seems unlikely. I'm sure some of the older ones may have had opinions of their time, but that's about it.

As for them all speaking English, well I'd suggest that might be more to do with the popularity of the language in the real world, aswell as English speaking nations having the socio economic environment where writers/filmmakers etc could actually prosper.

I heard in the spanish rulebooks they all speak spanish. If the GW writers could address this inconsistency I think I'd appreciate it, it's a major plot hole. Which rulebook language is canonical?

the_scotsman wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
No.
It's like the people who think Tyler Durden was a role model or that ceasers legion was a good choice for the mojave.
They missed the point, it's not the source materials fault they are stupid.

I dunno, it definitely does seem like there's a pattern of "the way something looks on the surface is all that matters to anyone" that shines through in all of these writings. You're not going to look at the cover of the 8th edition rulebook, point to the dude posed like God in the roof of the sistine chapel, surrounded by white light and go "ah yes, the bad guy."

It does seem like any time a villainous character is allowed to look cool and seem "savvy" or "smart" in a piece of media, there's a whole legion of idiots who will idolize them in a way they don't tend to idolize, say, Sauron from LOTR. They always seem to follow a similar pattern, too: Tyler Durden, Heath Ledger Joker, Hans Landa, The Punisher - them being Cool and Badass is the text, them being wrong is the subtext.

I also think it's pretty telling how many people will complain any time a character like that is portrayed like they reasonably would be - the reaction to Anakin Skywalker being portrayed as a whiny, bitchy manchild whose greatest victories in the films all involved murdering helpless, basically unarmed people was pretty negative because people just want Darth Vader to be a Cool Badass.

People often like anti heroes or villains as much as heroes. It doesn't mean anything.

 Da Boss wrote:
Jackal90: the creators of the game put political themes into it, you know? Like the did it on purpose. Because it makes it more compelling.

And I think no one is really saying that 40K is going to turn people fascist or whatever, we are commenting on it being popular with fascists.

You should go back to the start of this thread - that is exactly what some people are saying.

I honestly think some are either being hyperbolic in this thread and/or they have a serious problem with the separation of fantasy and reality.

At this rate I'm expecting people to be demanding that Animaniacs publishes a warning after Pinky and the Brain that world domination is not a healthy thing etc...

At some level you have to trust that the majority of people are able to separate reality from fantasy; that they are able to scream about killing orks and then go on with their life quite normally without trying to kill anyone ever.



Also people keep saying that the community/GW needs to "reject" the extremist groups, yet by and large I've not seen any real acceptance of them. Most people already reject them on some level (eg they might watch Arch Warhammer's lore videos, even though they don't support or are unaware of his racist attitude outside of those videos). What else do you want? Armed mobs and pitchforks? If anything ignoring them is a very powerful weapon - giving them attention and highlighting them and mentioning them over and over bumps them up in attention and gives them exposure. Ignoring them leaves them alone; prevents their expansion and generally leaves them isolated (which they mostly already are).

 Da Boss wrote:
Jackal90: the creators of the game put political themes into it, you know? Like the did it on purpose. Because it makes it more compelling.

And I think no one is really saying that 40K is going to turn people fascist or whatever, we are commenting on it being popular with fascists.

lots of things are popular with fascists, I mean hell, the reaction to stuff like star trek discovery suggests the alt right has taken to thinking of trek as theirs. *shrugs* I don't get it eaither

Hecaton wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Aye, I just want to introduce more of those human societies into the setting so that they exist as examples and it is not as hopless to go against the IoM. But OT for this thread, just an example of what you can do as a gamer if you don't like this stuff.

Don't associate with those people and don't encourage them. Also, when you get the chance, call GW out on how they're steering too hard into a heroic IoM.

Yep. Just curate your play group. Several years ago now I took over organizing our local group as the previous person who was kind of "in charge" moved away, and over time you just learn scumbags exist, and you don't have to allow them to play toy soldiers in your group.

I mean yeah I know lots of things are popular with fascists. They often like craft beer and norse mythology and all sorts of gak I like. But we're talking about Warhammer here, and it's not a conversation designed to "shut down warhammer" or something, just a discussion on the topic.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:



Problem is that those are all pretty much requirements for a fascistic strong man persona and people who are vulnerable to the arguments of fascism rarely see those qualities as weaknesses.

there is no political system in the world right now where a strong leader isn't wanted. Even in democratic systems you have party heads, factions leaders etc. Saying that this is somehow fasist specific is not very accurate. all humans breath, does this mean that the act of breathing is some sort of -ism too, because those people do it too.

I heard in the spanish rulebooks they all speak spanish. If the GW writers could address this inconsistency I think I'd appreciate it, it's a major plot hole. Which rulebook language is canonical?

Don't the english books always hold the highest level of canon? I mean otherwise there would be some really funny stuff in w40k, if we took some of the black library books translated in to polish as true.

So in my very limited 5 years in the hobby, I have encountered:

Player wearing star of Rhodesia badge on jacket
Players using racist language in GW store, but playing it off as jokes
Same but homophobic or transphobic language
Models and units painted with clear Nazi or 3rd Reich iconography
Models and units painted/modelled to look like KKK members
Players getting upset/bothered because my guard/custodians had black and brown skin
Players actively making attacks against my female characters because they said "women don't belong on the battlefield"
Players that called my Tallarn Guard, Sand N-words.

40k is full of fascists and idiot children. But no, I do not think the hobby is racist or fascist. I do think it's got a rallying cry/dog whistle towards those people though.

I also think GW has done a LOT this year to stop that sort of stuff. This really helped me see it in a better light though:

 Da Boss wrote:
Jackal90: the creators of the game put political themes into it, you know? Like the did it on purpose. Because it makes it more compelling.

And I think no one is really saying that 40K is going to turn people fascist or whatever, we are commenting on it being popular with fascists.

So what if it is? What's your point or end goal here? Is it to stop them being allowed to play or like the models? Because I would suggest that aswell as being impossible and unnecessary, it's also very illiberal and leaning towards that authoritarianism that I would assume you are very much against to attempt that. Why are people bothered about what other people believe? As long as it isn't affecting you directly, who cares? Trying to get them booted out of the hobby isn't going to change their opinions, so I assume it's just a matter of ideologically purifying your hobby space. The problem then arises, more often than not, that this devolves into a purity spiral with the window for what is acceptable getting smaller and smaller. (There is a very interesting BBC radio 4 podcast about this very thing happening to online knitting communities.) Just leave them be, if you don't like their ideas, don't associate.

This is the main problem I had with the statement in June. Those folks I deem to be ideological troublemakers took it as carte blanche to start attacking people on twitter, almost immediately.

 SolarCross wrote:


The IoM aren't the "good guys" unless you are just being anthropocentric, which ironically would be actual racism. Every faction in 40k universe are shades of grey, or rather grimdark, the IoM included. A lot of what makes them grimdark / dystopian was plagiarised from the history of communism actually. Eg: commissars, purges.

Wait so you want to tell me that the right stance to have, as I assume racism is the wrong stance, that being team human in w40k and real life is somehow the wrong stance to hold? w40k players should be pro eldar and orks?

BrianDavion wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Jackal90: the creators of the game put political themes into it, you know? Like the did it on purpose. Because it makes it more compelling.

And I think no one is really saying that 40K is going to turn people fascist or whatever, we are commenting on it being popular with fascists.

lots of things are popular with fascists, I mean hell, the reaction to stuff like star trek discovery suggests the alt right has taken to thinking of trek as theirs. *shrugs* I don't get it eaither

As one matures you realise that people like things people like.
That liking the same things you like doesn't mean people have to hold the same social, political or moral values in any way shape or form.

40K isn't something that only one segment of society likes, its got potential for many many segments to engage with and enjoy. For the vast majority of situations this is a POSITIVE thing as it creates new interactions; broadens horizons and brings different communities and groups and backgrounds together.

And yes along the way there will be some nasty people in there too; by and large the social aspects of 40K keep it to a minimum; sure the internet gives some a podium to shout from; but by and large the appeal of the game broadens horizons and helps engage and forge new understandings. It's a social game at its core and the more outreach we, as gamers, and GW as company does the more diverse the social groups become - to the general betterment of those groups.




In the end you've got to learn not to worry that someone "nasty" in your view, likes the same thing you do. It doesn't mean there's something wrong with 40K or reading, or golfing or football or whatever. It just means those people also engage with the same thing you do. Doesn't mean you have to engage with them; nor that engaging with your hobby is somehow supporting the views of those other people.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
No.
It's like the people who think Tyler Durden was a role model or that ceasers legion was a good choice for the mojave.
They missed the point, it's not the source materials fault they are stupid.

I dunno, it definitely does seem like there's a pattern of "the way something looks on the surface is all that matters to anyone" that shines through in all of these writings. You're not going to look at the cover of the 8th edition rulebook, point to the dude posed like God in the roof of the sistine chapel, surrounded by white light and go "ah yes, the bad guy."

It does seem like any time a villainous character is allowed to look cool and seem "savvy" or "smart" in a piece of media, there's a whole legion of idiots who will idolize them in a way they don't tend to idolize, say, Sauron from LOTR. They always seem to follow a similar pattern, too: Tyler Durden, Heath Ledger Joker, Hans Landa, The Punisher - them being Cool and Badass is the text, them being wrong is the subtext.

I also think it's pretty telling how many people will complain any time a character like that is portrayed like they reasonably would be - the reaction to Anakin Skywalker being portrayed as a whiny, bitchy manchild whose greatest victories in the films all involved murdering helpless, basically unarmed people was pretty negative because people just want Darth Vader to be a Cool Badass.

People often like anti heroes or villains as much as heroes. It doesn't mean anything.

I mean, there does seem to be a pretty strong correlation between people I meet who don't pay their child support, constantly tell stories about how they're the victim and everybody else is the bad guy, and can't handle any challenge to their ego and punisher skull and heath ledger joker car window stickers.

I'm in favor of the trend of purposefully trying to craft media that denies people like that villains to idolized.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
So in my very limited 5 years in the hobby, I have encountered:

Player wearing star of Rhodesia badge on jacket
Players using racist language in GW store, but playing it off as jokes
Same but homophobic or transphobic language
Models and units painted with clear Nazi or 3rd Reich iconography
Models and units painted/modelled to look like KKK members
Players getting upset/bothered because my guard/custodians had black and brown skin
Players actively making attacks against my female characters because they said "women don't belong on the battlefield"
Players that called my Tallarn Guard, Sand N-words.

The only thing I can say happened to me is:

Models and units painted with clear Nazi or 3rd Reich iconography - I mean what're you going to do when you play Bolt Action as Germans?
There's one guy around that has a Guard army which I'd call "counts-as nazis" as it's clearly inspired by them. *edit* I should add that the first time I saw that army he explained to me - without me asking - that it was an old paint job from his youth, he was aware of what it looks like and that it's not representative of his views.

None of the other items happened to me - maybe it's more of an issue with where you are, as opposed to what you're playing?

the_scotsman wrote:

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
No.
It's like the people who think Tyler Durden was a role model or that ceasers legion was a good choice for the mojave.
They missed the point, it's not the source materials fault they are stupid.

I dunno, it definitely does seem like there's a pattern of "the way something looks on the surface is all that matters to anyone" that shines through in all of these writings. You're not going to look at the cover of the 8th edition rulebook, point to the dude posed like God in the roof of the sistine chapel, surrounded by white light and go "ah yes, the bad guy."

It does seem like any time a villainous character is allowed to look cool and seem "savvy" or "smart" in a piece of media, there's a whole legion of idiots who will idolize them in a way they don't tend to idolize, say, Sauron from LOTR. They always seem to follow a similar pattern, too: Tyler Durden, Heath Ledger Joker, Hans Landa, The Punisher - them being Cool and Badass is the text, them being wrong is the subtext.

I also think it's pretty telling how many people will complain any time a character like that is portrayed like they reasonably would be - the reaction to Anakin Skywalker being portrayed as a whiny, bitchy manchild whose greatest victories in the films all involved murdering helpless, basically unarmed people was pretty negative because people just want Darth Vader to be a Cool Badass.

People often like anti heroes or villains as much as heroes. It doesn't mean anything.

I mean, there does seem to be a pretty strong correlation between people I meet who don't pay their child support, constantly tell stories about how they're the victim and everybody else is the bad guy, and can't handle any challenge to their ego and punisher skull and heath ledger joker car window stickers.

I'm in favor of the trend of purposefully trying to craft media that denies people like that villains to idolized.

A strong correlation of a limited subset?

A niche media with a niche fanbase with a niche forum in a niche sub forum?

the_scotsman wrote:
...there's a whole legion of idiots who will idolize them in a way they don't tend to idolize, say, Sauron from LOTR. They always seem to follow a similar pattern, too: Tyler Durden, Heath Ledger Joker, Hans Landa, The Punisher - them being Cool and Badass is the text, them being wrong is the subtext.

If people idolise them to the point of it being a worry, those people were already a worry beforehand, it's not the character that is worrying.

But those characters are compelling for a reason, they have relatable features. They aren't just generic bad guy who is 100% bad through and through and you know you're supposed to hate, a good story has flawed heroes and relatable villains.

Is it a concern that a very tiny percentage of the population takes them seriously? Maybe, but if it is a concern, I would say it was a concern before those characters existed.

I also think it's pretty telling how many people will complain any time a character like that is portrayed like they reasonably would be - the reaction to Anakin Skywalker being portrayed as a whiny, bitchy manchild whose greatest victories in the films all involved murdering helpless, basically unarmed people was pretty negative because people just want Darth Vader to be a Cool Badass.

People didn't want Darth Vader to be a cool badass, they wanted to see a relatable character turn bad for reasons that would make sense to you or I. They wanted to see a Luke Skywalker type that failed.

What they got was an unlikeable kid who turned into a whiny teenager who went from zero to murdering kids in the blink of an eye with a whole bunch of bad acting and bad writing throughout.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Jackal90: the creators of the game put political themes into it, you know? Like the did it on purpose. Because it makes it more compelling.

And I think no one is really saying that 40K is going to turn people fascist or whatever, we are commenting on it being popular with fascists.

So what if it is? What's your point or end goal here? Is it to stop them being allowed to play or like the models? Because I would suggest that aswell as being impossible and unnecessary, it's also very illiberal and leaning towards that authoritarianism that I would assume you are very much against to attempt that. Why are people bothered about what other people believe? As long as it isn't affecting you directly, who cares? Trying to get them booted out of the hobby isn't going to change their opinions, so I assume it's just a matter of ideologically purifying your hobby space. The problem then arises, more often than not, that this devolves into a purity spiral with the window for what is acceptable getting smaller and smaller. (There is a very interesting BBC radio 4 podcast about this very thing happening to online knitting communities.) Just leave them be, if you don't like their ideas, don't associate.

This is the main problem I had with the statement in June. Those folks I deem to be ideological troublemakers took it as carte blanche to start attacking people on twitter, almost immediately.

I mean, yeah I am pro fascists not being a part of my hobby generally, yeah. I am not trying to do anything in particular to bring that about though, and I think it is weird that you jumped to all these possible end goals I have. "I would like it if fascists would go away" is not the same as me actively doing anything. I am bothered about what other people believe when it is harmful or dangerous, when it dehumanises others and makes their lives more difficult. I care about it because I care about people other than myself, obviously? Like, even if it doesn't effect me directly, fascist ideology absolutely does effect others and I want to help those people. But like, isn't that all pretty obvious? I don't think it is sinister or authoritarian at all.

What I find more interesting is just to discuss why Warhammer is attractive to fascists and hear what others have to say. It seems like some people are uncomfortable with that conversation or find it ridiculous or want it shut down, but like, why? You can go post in a different thread if you think this one is silly, but the really strong response is weird to me. We discuss all sorts of stuff here that is less interesting or more trivial than this topic.

 queen_annes_revenge wrote:

 Da Boss wrote:
Jackal90: the creators of the game put political themes into it, you know? Like the did it on purpose. Because it makes it more compelling.

And I think no one is really saying that 40K is going to turn people fascist or whatever, we are commenting on it being popular with fascists.

So what if it is? What's your point or end goal here? Is it to stop them being allowed to play or like the models?

One of the first lessons you learn if you have to manage an in-person group is that the worst ~3% of players will drive off 3x-4x their number of decent personable humans if you don't just kick them out.

And in the worst case, they'll get your group ejected from the store you probably use to host your games by doing the same thing they do with good players with paying customers.

Having a standard of behavioral decency is necessary for any group that wants to last.

There is something wrong in being Rhodesian?

I don't think I ever saw people play a "nazi" army outside of historicals, and non of the people that played those armies or ally armies like hungarians or italians had political views aligned with the german reich. In fact considering history it is really hard to be pro nazi or pro communist around here. Specialy the nazi thing.

What I find more interesting is just to discuss why Warhammer is attractive to fascists and hear what others have to say.

I don't think it is more attractive, then anything else that people can do. There are probably more what ever counts as a fascist in MMA clubs and hooligan gym clubs, then in w40k. I still have no idea how w40k could appeal to someone who is a fasist or national socialist, as there is no such system in the lore. There is no communism or any form of democracy either. well maybe eldar are kind of a like the US pre civil war, but this is still a big kind of a and a maybe.

There is a theocracy and oligarchy in it. But I don't see many people who like those system play w40k, or it being popular in places where they are base of sociaty.

Sometimes I think that -isms are just buzz words nowadays, and that they don't really mean the definition of the word, but are just a nice replacement for a bannable insult to someone or something one doesn't like. And if it was true, depending on the viewer, anything in any facet of live is majority an -ism of some sort, which isn't very useful to go on with life, but a good thing to write about. As we are proving it now.

the_scotsman wrote:

I mean, there does seem to be a pretty strong correlation between people I meet who don't pay their child support, constantly tell stories about how they're the victim and everybody else is the bad guy, and can't handle any challenge to their ego and punisher skull and heath ledger joker car window stickers.

I'm in favor of the trend of purposefully trying to craft media that denies people like that villains to idolized.

I'm sure lots of them like beer too, so, shall we ban them from buying beer? On the flip side, I'm a parent to 2 healthy kids, and a loyal husband who provides for my family, and I like all those villains, so what? It doesn't mean anything. It's fiction, and doesn't correlate to reality in any meaningful way.

I would suggest that without strong villains then there would be no need for strong moral heroes...

Nobody is talking about banning anything?