Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: There are already too many dedicated horde armies - Nids, GSC, Orks, Guard, Demons, and Chaos w/ cultists. GW likely doesn't want another of their supposedly elite factions being an Elite Horde. I'm sorry, but I stand by the presumption that GW is actively trying to re-focus the game away from horde style lists. It's actively rewarding and incentivizing playing with mostly just characters/small teams. Whether it's blast rules, or core rules, or just unit costs, GW does not want to see 5+ hour games outside of Apoc now.
I doubt blast has anything to do with that. There used to be big templates you used with certain weapons. They were way more killy before.
I think the blast rule is mostly to reduce feel bads.
I mean, it actively punishes and groups larger than 5+/10+. It's clearly meant to incentivize players to take smaller units.
So did the templates. The more dudes you had, the more dudes were hit. Sure, you could spred them out, but a large blast that didn't scatter usually hit 4-6 models. And every model under the template was "auto-hit". It wasn't "place template, scatter, see how many models are under the template, roll that many dice to see how many are hit".
There is counter-play to templates though. Do you want to be spread out or risk being a juicy target for other tactical reasons is more interactive than don't have more than 5/10 guys. Although I think a lot of the problem is both D3 and D6 having the same guaranteed amount of hits for the same values. A basilisk having the same guaranteed amount of shots as a single inceptor plasma pistol into a squad of 10 guardsmen doesn't make sense.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/16 16:43:48
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: There are already too many dedicated horde armies - Nids, GSC, Orks, Guard, Demons, and Chaos w/ cultists. GW likely doesn't want another of their supposedly elite factions being an Elite Horde. I'm sorry, but I stand by the presumption that GW is actively trying to re-focus the game away from horde style lists. It's actively rewarding and incentivizing playing with mostly just characters/small teams. Whether it's blast rules, or core rules, or just unit costs, GW does not want to see 5+ hour games outside of Apoc now.
I doubt blast has anything to do with that. There used to be big templates you used with certain weapons. They were way more killy before.
I think the blast rule is mostly to reduce feel bads.
I mean, it actively punishes and groups larger than 5+/10+. It's clearly meant to incentivize players to take smaller units.
So did the templates. The more dudes you had, the more dudes were hit. Sure, you could spred them out, but a large blast that didn't scatter usually hit 4-6 models. And every model under the template was "auto-hit". It wasn't "place template, scatter, see how many models are under the template, roll that many dice to see how many are hit".
There is counter-play to templates though. Do you want to be spread out or risk being a juicy target for other tactical reasons is more interactive than don't have more than 5/10 guys. Although I think a lot of the problem is both D3 and D6 having the same guaranteed amount of hits for the same values. A basilisk having the same guaranteed amount of shots as a single inceptor plasma pistol into a squad of 10 guardsmen doesn't make sense.
I was going to say thay you can counter-play it now too by taking smaller squads. But that's counter-building, not playing so my argument isn't valid.
I do agree on the D3/D6 thing! However, A D3 gets its' full max potential, while a D6 gets only half since it has a chance of twice that much. It's a nice consolidation gift.
I complain and dislike a lot of things in this edition (and 8th) -and especially the new DG codex- but I actually like the consolidation price for D6 weapons. They did not get that for a very long time and no body complained about it then.
The move away from blast templates was good for reducing the time a game would take.
You wasted a lot of time moving big squads like Gaunts and making sure everybody is the maximum range apart from the next model so a blast would not hit more than 3-4.
Designer's Note: Hardened Veterans can be represented by any Imperial Guard models, but we've really included them to allow players to practise their skills at making a really unique and individual unit. Because of this we won't be making models to represent many of the options allowed to a Veteran squad - it's up to you to convert the models. (Imperial Guard, 3rd Edition)
Don't tell me you enjoyed sitting there for 10 minutes extra everytime the other player moved their Gaunts or Boys or Conscripts, measuring again and again the 2" distance between all of them.
Templates themselves in the shooting phase were not a problem, but the kind of behaviour they encouraged in the movement phase was.
Designer's Note: Hardened Veterans can be represented by any Imperial Guard models, but we've really included them to allow players to practise their skills at making a really unique and individual unit. Because of this we won't be making models to represent many of the options allowed to a Veteran squad - it's up to you to convert the models. (Imperial Guard, 3rd Edition)
some play can handle large amount of models, others can not
I remember that games during 5th were made in time during events and there was hardly one that did not manage to get to the last turn before the time runs out
in 8th, majority of games ended with a time-out instead of a regular end and not making it past 3rd turn was not unusual
so the change of blast templates did not really helped here
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
There is counter-play to templates though. Do you want to be spread out or risk being a juicy target for other tactical reasons is more interactive than don't have more than 5/10 guys. Although I think a lot of the problem is both D3 and D6 having the same guaranteed amount of hits for the same values. A basilisk having the same guaranteed amount of shots as a single inceptor plasma pistol into a squad of 10 guardsmen doesn't make sense.
Having watched a HIMAR land between 4 Taliban grouped 6-8ft apart and only kill 1 dude, I can honestly say D6 isn't a bad system and makes a lot of sense
kodos wrote: there is so much stuff build in the rolls that let you waste times, templates were not a big problem
there are game mechanics that take time because of their nature and others because there is player interaction
rules that "waste" time because of player interaction are less of a problem, as long as the other rules make up the majority
Yeah this is patently false, both on friendly and tournament level I remember wasting a lot of time between myself and my opponent, stretching out units as much as physically possible in order to minimize the impact of blast weapons. Even SM players would do this because a handful of lucky small blast weapons could gut entire units of terminators. case and point, I remember when Mek Gunz became a thing and I hit my opponent's 10 man Terminator squad with 3 blasts in a row which destroyed his entire squad. On the reverse of that, having spent at least an extra 1-3 minutes spacing out my boyz correctly, i can remember only getting nailed with 3-5 casualties per LARGE blast template. And over the course of a game, that 1-3 minutes REALLY adds up, especially when you think about having to do it in the movement phase, the shooting phase and consolidation phase.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: There are already too many dedicated horde armies - Nids, GSC, Orks, Guard, Demons, and Chaos w/ cultists. GW likely doesn't want another of their supposedly elite factions being an Elite Horde. I'm sorry, but I stand by the presumption that GW is actively trying to re-focus the game away from horde style lists. It's actively rewarding and incentivizing playing with mostly just characters/small teams. Whether it's blast rules, or core rules, or just unit costs, GW does not want to see 5+ hour games outside of Apoc now.
Ironically every army you named, including orkz and Nids doesn't have to be a horde army, and has many elite options. The problem at the competitive level is that most if not all their "Elite" options are significantly worse than their SM counterparts and therefore they don't get taken as much.
A great example would be Ork buggies which are without a doubt a strong unit, are not taken at the competitive level anymore because of the prevalence of anti-vehicle weaponry and the fact that they are noticeably worse point for point than SM alternatives.
As an example, an Ork player for 110pts can take a Scrapjet which in my opinion is the BEST of the new buggies. It gets a wing missile S8 AP-2 3D hits on 4s vs vehicles and 6s vs infantry. 2D3 Rokkitz S8 -2AP 3D Hits on 5s and 2 twin linked big shootas, 1 hitting on 4s the other on 5s. Total is 12 shots at S5 AP- 1D. Not bad in my opinion.
For the same price SM can take 2 Attack bikes armed with Multi-meltas. That is 8 bolter shots and more importantly 4 S8 AP-4 D6d shots hitting on 3s that also do +2 dmg if within 12' range. They also get automatic 6' run move as opposed to D6.
Durability wise the scrapjet has T6 to the bikes T5 and 9W's to the Bikes 8. But, the Scrapjet is 4+ save and the bikes are 3+ not to mention there is the obvious opportunity to overkill a bike and of course the fact that T5 and T6 are relatively the same against most weapons. And finally, the bikes get a plethora of bonuses from characters and chapter buffs which are arguably some of the best in the game.
So in reality, GW is actively hurting Horde armies, but at the same time in a lot of factions they are not incentivizing those same horde factions to take their more elite models. Why would I take a Battlewagon list when I know its going to die by the end of turn 3 when I can instead take 120 ork boyz which require a lot more dakka to shift?
Ehhh... I think the morale change did as much to help hordes as blast did to hurt them. Besides with vehicles firing into melee but not with blast it gives hordes an inherent counter play to blaster masters.
There is counter-play to templates though. Do you want to be spread out or risk being a juicy target for other tactical reasons is more interactive than don't have more than 5/10 guys. Although I think a lot of the problem is both D3 and D6 having the same guaranteed amount of hits for the same values. A basilisk having the same guaranteed amount of shots as a single inceptor plasma pistol into a squad of 10 guardsmen doesn't make sense.
Having watched a HIMAR land between 4 Taliban grouped 6-8ft apart and only kill 1 dude, I can honestly say D6 isn't a bad system and makes a lot of sense
kodos wrote: there is so much stuff build in the rolls that let you waste times, templates were not a big problem
there are game mechanics that take time because of their nature and others because there is player interaction
rules that "waste" time because of player interaction are less of a problem, as long as the other rules make up the majority
Yeah this is patently false, both on friendly and tournament level I remember wasting a lot of time between myself and my opponent, stretching out units as much as physically possible in order to minimize the impact of blast weapons. Even SM players would do this because a handful of lucky small blast weapons could gut entire units of terminators. case and point, I remember when Mek Gunz became a thing and I hit my opponent's 10 man Terminator squad with 3 blasts in a row which destroyed his entire squad. On the reverse of that, having spent at least an extra 1-3 minutes spacing out my boyz correctly, i can remember only getting nailed with 3-5 casualties per LARGE blast template. And over the course of a game, that 1-3 minutes REALLY adds up, especially when you think about having to do it in the movement phase, the shooting phase and consolidation phase.
FezzikDaBullgryn wrote: There are already too many dedicated horde armies - Nids, GSC, Orks, Guard, Demons, and Chaos w/ cultists. GW likely doesn't want another of their supposedly elite factions being an Elite Horde. I'm sorry, but I stand by the presumption that GW is actively trying to re-focus the game away from horde style lists. It's actively rewarding and incentivizing playing with mostly just characters/small teams. Whether it's blast rules, or core rules, or just unit costs, GW does not want to see 5+ hour games outside of Apoc now.
Ironically every army you named, including orkz and Nids doesn't have to be a horde army, and has many elite options. The problem at the competitive level is that most if not all their "Elite" options are significantly worse than their SM counterparts and therefore they don't get taken as much.
A great example would be Ork buggies which are without a doubt a strong unit, are not taken at the competitive level anymore because of the prevalence of anti-vehicle weaponry and the fact that they are noticeably worse point for point than SM alternatives.
As an example, an Ork player for 110pts can take a Scrapjet which in my opinion is the BEST of the new buggies. It gets a wing missile S8 AP-2 3D hits on 4s vs vehicles and 6s vs infantry. 2D3 Rokkitz S8 -2AP 3D Hits on 5s and 2 twin linked big shootas, 1 hitting on 4s the other on 5s. Total is 12 shots at S5 AP- 1D. Not bad in my opinion.
For the same price SM can take 2 Attack bikes armed with Multi-meltas. That is 8 bolter shots and more importantly 4 S8 AP-4 D6d shots hitting on 3s that also do +2 dmg if within 12' range. They also get automatic 6' run move as opposed to D6.
Durability wise the scrapjet has T6 to the bikes T5 and 9W's to the Bikes 8. But, the Scrapjet is 4+ save and the bikes are 3+ not to mention there is the obvious opportunity to overkill a bike and of course the fact that T5 and T6 are relatively the same against most weapons. And finally, the bikes get a plethora of bonuses from characters and chapter buffs which are arguably some of the best in the game.
So in reality, GW is actively hurting Horde armies, but at the same time in a lot of factions they are not incentivizing those same horde factions to take their more elite models. Why would I take a Battlewagon list when I know its going to die by the end of turn 3 when I can instead take 120 ork boyz which require a lot more dakka to shift?
I'm not sure if serious, but Nids are the literal definition of a horde. They are called the chittering swarm for a reason. Their whole fluff is how they are an unstoppable tide. Almost the exact same for the IG, the Orks, and the GSC. Yes, you can go full mechanized with IG, or full Elites with Orks/GSC/nids, but their primary focus is to be able to put a butt load of chaff on the table and force that 300 point unit with 20 wounds, to make a bucket full of save rolls. Same with IG, sure a single flashlight is crap, but 40 flashlights with double shooting ya ya ya. If you can field elites in a horde, that doesn't make them not horde.
Yes, Nids, guard and Orkz are the official "Horde" armies. but they can play as elite forces as well or even mechanized. Orkz and guard can play all vehicle lists, orkz can play elite infantry (Meganobz, Tankbustas etc) and Even those "chittering Swarm" can have entire lists built out of monstrous creatures. If you don't remember, in 7th the Nidz tournament list was Flyrant spam, and in 9th they can just as easily take a plethora of the bigger monsters as opposed to just spamming Gaunts and what not.
The point is, why would they do that when those options are terrible at the moment competitively. So if GW really wants to incentivize smaller lists, they have to BUFF those noncompetitive elite options to be at as good as the current meta dominant SM elite forces.
NinthMusketeer wrote: Ehhh... I think the morale change did as much to help hordes as blast did to hurt them. Besides with vehicles firing into melee but not with blast it gives hordes an inherent counter play to blaster masters.
I think those core rules are fine as a concept. Where it falls apart is what GW classifies as a 'horde' for coherency and blast weapons.
6 models? Seriously? I take 5 Harli Jetbikes and I can stretch them out, but I take a 6th and suddenly blast weapons affect them more and I have to squish them all together to not have one die instantly (even putting their bases touching, in a straight line, doesn't satisfy the coherency rules).
I fully acknowledge that choosing any number as the threshold for hoard/not-hoard is going to be arbitrary, but they didn't even get to double digits before deciding something counts as a 'horde' for these rules.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/17 05:01:31
Blast is fine, it's the idiotic within 2" of 2 models coherency thing that really creates the pain with horde units. It renders the argument against blast templates pretty much moot, given it's just as bad or arguably even worse. You practically need a degree in geometry to set up your models in the most advantageous way.
IMO they should go to 1" coherency - it achieves the same thing re: reigning in conga lines without the utter irrationality and stupidity of the 6 model break point - and at the same time do away with the stupid idea that you can't move through friendly troops because somehow they're unable to edge a few feet to the right or left to let a friendly unit pass through them. Just let people move through friendly models as if they aren't there, albeit not being able to finish a move physically on top of another model.
Maybe let vehicle units and models on large bases (50mm or above) have 2" coherency. But within X" of more than one other model in the unit is a disaster.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/01/17 05:32:35
yukishiro1 wrote: Blast is fine, it's the idiotic within 2" of 2 models coherency thing that really creates the pain with horde units. It renders the argument against blast templates pretty much moot, given it's just as bad or arguably even worse. You practically need a degree in geometry to set up your models in the most advantageous way.
IMO they should go to 1" coherency - it achieves the same thing re: reigning in conga lines without the utter irrationality and stupidity of the 6 model break point - and at the same time do away with the stupid idea that you can't move through friendly troops because somehow they're unable to edge a few feet to the right or left to let a friendly unit pass through them. Just let people move through friendly models as if they aren't there, albeit not being able to finish a move physically on top of another model.
just go base to base coherency and bring back templates
NinthMusketeer wrote: Ehhh... I think the morale change did as much to help hordes as blast did to hurt them. Besides with vehicles firing into melee but not with blast it gives hordes an inherent counter play to blaster masters.
I think those core rules are fine as a concept. Where it falls apart is what GW classifies as a 'horde' for coherency and blast weapons.
6 models? Seriously? I take 5 Harli Jetbikes and I can stretch them out, but I take a 6th and suddenly blast weapons affect them more and I have to squish them all together to not have one die instantly (even putting their bases touching, in a straight line, doesn't satisfy the coherency rules).
I fully acknowledge that choosing any number as the threshold for hoard/not-hoard is going to be arbitrary, but they didn't even get to double digits before deciding something counts as a 'horde' for these rules.
No, they started at six models, exactly one more than the typical loyalist "Combat Squad". Odd coincidence, isn't it?
I doubt blast has anything to do with that. There used to be big templates you used with certain weapons. They were way more killy before.
I think the blast rule is mostly to reduce feel bads.
Not really true, take an old Large Blast weapon: against 5 dudes, unless a huge scatter it granted 5 hits. Now only D6.
Templates, big or small, were excellent against elites, especially those with high AP. My KMKs used to delete multiple power armour or terminators if they got a direct hit, now they fire D6 shots that need to hit with the model's BS (which is low or medium for orks). Killkannons were Large Blast and AP3, they could delete an entire tactical squad with some luck. Now D6 hits and BS5+, lol. And only a single unit could be hit, Large Blasts had potential to hit multiple squads.
Take Plasma Cannons, with small templates they could barely hit one or two models of Killa Kanz, maybe even none with a minor scatter. Now if the unit has 6 models is the auto 3 shots with high BS, and probably re-rolls.
The new system is weird, sometimes it punishes elites more than the old times, sometimes elite are much safer. It all depends on the unit's number, those who can be ok with 3-5 man squads are now extremely better. They get min amount of shots and only a single unit can be hit. Guess who field those kind of units?
IMHO blasts should work with different tresholds (11+ and 21+ instead of 6+ and 11+) and if the targeted units are small blast weapons would get the chance of hurting other enemy units near them, like units that are 2'' away from targeted 6-10 man squads or 3'' from 1-5 man squads. So both larger and smaller units get their pros and cons.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/17 08:19:30
kodos wrote: there is so much stuff build in the rolls that let you waste times, templates were not a big problem
there are game mechanics that take time because of their nature and others because there is player interaction
rules that "waste" time because of player interaction are less of a problem, as long as the other rules make up the majority
Yeah this is patently false, both on friendly and tournament level I remember wasting a lot of time between myself and my opponent, stretching out units as much as physically possible in order to minimize the impact of blast weapons. Even SM players would do this because a handful of lucky small blast weapons could gut entire units of terminators. case and point, I remember when Mek Gunz became a thing and I hit my opponent's 10 man Terminator squad with 3 blasts in a row which destroyed his entire squad. On the reverse of that, having spent at least an extra 1-3 minutes spacing out my boyz correctly, i can remember only getting nailed with 3-5 casualties per LARGE blast template. And over the course of a game, that 1-3 minutes REALLY adds up, especially when you think about having to do it in the movement phase, the shooting phase and consolidation phase.
so most of your 8th/9th Edi games are faster than most of your 5th Edi games now?
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
I doubt blast has anything to do with that. There used to be big templates you used with certain weapons. They were way more killy before.
I think the blast rule is mostly to reduce feel bads.
Not really true, take an old Large Blast weapon: against 5 dudes, unless a huge scatter it granted 5 hits. Now only D6.
Templates, big or small, were excellent against elites, especially those with high AP. My KMKs used to delete multiple power armour or terminators if they got a direct hit, now they fire D6 shots that need to hit with the model's BS (which is low or medium for orks). Killkannons were Large Blast and AP3, they could delete an entire tactical squad with some luck. Now D6 hits and BS5+, lol. And only a single unit could be hit, Large Blasts had potential to hit multiple squads.
Take Plasma Cannons, with small templates they could barely hit one or two models of Killa Kanz, maybe even none with a minor scatter. Now if the unit has 6 models is the auto 3 shots with high BS, and probably re-rolls.
The new system is weird, sometimes it punishes elites more than the old times, sometimes elite are much safer. It all depends on the unit's number, those who can be ok with 3-5 man squads are now extremely better. They get min amount of shots and only a single unit can be hit. Guess who field those kind of units?
IMHO blasts should work with different tresholds (11+ and 21+ instead of 6+ and 11+) and if the targeted units are small blast weapons would get the chance of hurting other enemy units near them, like units that are 2'' away from targeted 6-10 man squads or 3'' from 1-5 man squads. So both larger and smaller units get their pros and cons.
And that's what I said: They were more killy before. I.E. They were more killy with the templates.
And that's what I said: They were more killy before. I.E. They were more killy with the templates.
Not always true. Anti elite/tank blast weapons could scatter, even completely without hitting anyone, now armies with high BS (and re-rolls) will always hit something even when they roll under averages. And basically banned 6+ man squads of multiwounds models from play. Plasma cannons are a perfect example of that: now they have easy access to re-rolls and definitely score more hits on average against elite units with large bases, such as Killa Kanz, TWC or even dudes on 40mm.
Against cheap infantries some of the old blast weapons were basically as killy as now.
Flamers however are significantly weaker now, unless firing against units with 1-2 models. In this case they're actually better, as getting multiple hits against the same model wasn't impossible before.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/01/17 11:54:55
so most of your 8th/9th Edi games are faster than most of your 5th Edi games now?
Misleading question. You have to ask yourself: Would 9th edition games be quicker under the old template system? Sorry, but there is only one true answer to this. No, they would not be faster.
Designer's Note: Hardened Veterans can be represented by any Imperial Guard models, but we've really included them to allow players to practise their skills at making a really unique and individual unit. Because of this we won't be making models to represent many of the options allowed to a Veteran squad - it's up to you to convert the models. (Imperial Guard, 3rd Edition)
