Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
Voss wrote: Zemo ... was such a non-entity in Civil War.
Gonna need some more justification for such a ludicrous statement. As a non powered dude he tore through HYDRA, manipulated governmental entities, manipulated Bucky, and tore the Avengers apart.
Because they didn't show those accomplishments in any meaningful way. He just did them because the script said he did, and everyone danced exactly to his overly contrived machinations despite having no reason to do so. When he was on screen, he made vague statements that no one had any reason to take seriously, and the whole thing was very thin and pointless. It has nothing to do with screen time, but how well they sold his plotting. And they basically didn't even try. Each gambit succeeds because film needs to happen, not because the film builds a coherent narrative around it.
Whatever his goal was in Civil War (I still have no idea), he could have accomplished most of it just by sending Stark the random road security tape, or playing it on a TV network. It doesn't even have any real effect. Yadda yadda offscreen bad feelings, but when the next movie arrives, when the heroes are needed, there they are. The whole film is a big bag of 'So what?'
He was really good in this show, but in Civil War he was part of the incoherent babbling that made that movie nothing but a thinly veiled excuse to have the stupidly pointless hero on hero airport fight. The lack of care that went into everything but the 5 minute 'civil war' was really apparent in the film.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/25 02:00:41
Whatever his goal was in Civil War (I still have no idea)
It's pretty clearly stated. He wants to break up the Avengers, and he does.
he could have accomplished most of it just by sending Stark the random road security tape, or playing it on a TV network.
He needed to actually get the tape first. He doesn't have it right off the bat. He shows it to Stark as soon as he actually can. What TV network would even play that? It's an execution.
It doesn't even have any real effect.
Yeah, it does. It breaks up the Avengers.
Yadda yadda offscreen bad feelings, but when the next movie arrives, when the heroes are needed, there they are. The whole film is a big bag of 'So what?'
Yeah, there they are. Years later. Years. All it took was another alien invasion of New York to get them back together.
he could have accomplished most of it just by sending Stark the random road security tape, or playing it on a TV network.
He needed to actually get the tape first. He doesn't have it right off the bat. He shows it to Stark as soon as he actually can. What TV network would even play that? It's an execution.
I have it on the authority of most every piece of entertainment that it's pretty trivial to at the very LEAST to take over every screen in Times Square (with sound!)
Voss wrote: Zemo ... was such a non-entity in Civil War.
Gonna need some more justification for such a ludicrous statement. As a non powered dude he tore through HYDRA, manipulated governmental entities, manipulated Bucky, and tore the Avengers apart.
Because they didn't show those accomplishments in any meaningful way.
Well, first you see him break into that Hydra dudes house knowing he is hydra and stealing the book. You see him study and memorize it.
Then, you watched the UN get bombed and saw everyone blame bucky while Bucky wasn't even there. Not once was it ever implied on any level that Bucky was ever responsible for the attack. Which includes all the governmental responses including Black Panther and Wakanda.
Then you see him build and ship the EMP. You see him get into a room with bucky. You watch him take control of th winter soldier, and you watch him use the winter solider to cover his escape.
Then you see him in the russian base turn on a little video and get Iron Man to play to his tune forcing Cap and Bucky to defend themselves all according to Zemos plan.
What part of all of that wasn't meaningful?
He just did them because the script said he did, and everyone danced exactly to his overly contrived machinations despite having no reason to do so.
Hate to break this to you, but movies have scripts that have characters do things because the script says they do. They all have very real reasons for dancing to his tune. Until they find out the guy in the room with Bucky wasn't who he said he was nobody even knew Zemo existed.
When he was on screen, he made vague statements that no one had any reason to take seriously, and the whole thing was very thin and pointless. It has nothing to do with screen time, but how well they sold his plotting. And they basically didn't even try. Each gambit succeeds because film needs to happen, not because the film builds a coherent narrative around it.
I seriously think you need to pay more attention to that movie. None of what you say here makes any sense.
Whatever his goal was in Civil War (I still have no idea), he could have accomplished most of it just by sending Stark the random road security tape, or playing it on a TV network. It doesn't even have any real effect. Yadda yadda offscreen bad feelings, but when the next movie arrives, when the heroes are needed, there they are. The whole film is a big bag of 'So what?'
To destroy the Avengers. To kill off super soldiers. He couldn't have just sent off the video. He didn't HAVE the video. He didn't get the video until he infiltrated the Hydra base in for the big final show down. The real effect was exactly how all the avengers have been split apart. It has character effect that we are still seeing impacts of in Wandavision and F&tWS.
He was really good in this show, but in Civil War he was part of the incoherent babbling that made that movie nothing but a thinly veiled excuse to have the stupidly pointless hero on hero airport fight. The lack of care that went into everything but the 5 minute 'civil war' was really apparent in the film.
Winter Soldier is generally considered one of the top 5 best put together marvel movies. I have no idea how you came to this conclusion.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
He was really good in this show, but in Civil War he was part of the incoherent babbling that made that movie nothing but a thinly veiled excuse to have the stupidly pointless hero on hero airport fight. The lack of care that went into everything but the 5 minute 'civil war' was really apparent in the film.
Winter Soldier is generally considered one of the top 5 best put together marvel movies. I have no idea how you came to this conclusion.
Winter Soldier or Civil War, Lance? I'm guessing a typo here, but...
Gamgee on Tau Players wrote:we all kill cats and sell our own families to the devil and eat live puppies.
Kanluwen wrote: This is, emphatically, why I will continue suggesting nuking Guard and starting over again. It's a legacy army that needs to be rebooted with a new focal point.
Confirmation of why no-one should listen to Kanluwen when it comes to the IG - he doesn't want the IG, he want's Kan's New Model Army...
tneva82 wrote: You aren't even trying ty pretend for honest arqument. Open bad faith trolling.
- No reason to keep this here, unless people want to use it for something...
He was really good in this show, but in Civil War he was part of the incoherent babbling that made that movie nothing but a thinly veiled excuse to have the stupidly pointless hero on hero airport fight. The lack of care that went into everything but the 5 minute 'civil war' was really apparent in the film.
Winter Soldier is generally considered one of the top 5 best put together marvel movies. I have no idea how you came to this conclusion.
Winter Soldier or Civil War, Lance? I'm guessing a typo here, but...
Sorry. Meant Civil War, but the answer to your question is Both. Basically if the Russo's did it it's best in class. Minus the final entry. It was good but it wasn't winter soldier/civil war/infinity war good.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/04/25 13:51:19
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Whatever his goal was in Civil War (I still have no idea)
It's pretty clearly stated. He wants to break up the Avengers, and he does.
he could have accomplished most of it just by sending Stark the random road security tape, or playing it on a TV network.
He needed to actually get the tape first. He doesn't have it right off the bat. He shows it to Stark as soon as he actually can. What TV network would even play that? It's an execution.
It doesn't even have any real effect.
Yeah, it does. It breaks up the Avengers.
Yadda yadda offscreen bad feelings, but when the next movie arrives, when the heroes are needed, there they are. The whole film is a big bag of 'So what?'
Yeah, there they are. Years later. Years. All it took was another alien invasion of New York to get them back together.
And it doesn't matter. There is no intervening material where it would be useful to have the Avengers. Had they not broken up and/or reconciled earlier, Infinity War plays out exactly the same. Banner comes down in Strange's mansion, Stark shows up, goes off into space alone. Everything plays out exactly the same- it would not matter if Stark had a friendly phone call with Steve before he left.
'Years' only matter if you have to live through them. If the effects are just 'skip to the next film,' that isn't a consequence.
---
Winter Soldier is generally considered one of the top 5 best put together marvel movies. I have no idea how you came to this conclusion.
Because I base my impressions of movies based on how I see them, not how they're 'generally considered.'
Civil War was awful. It had no consequences, and whatever message it was aiming for was lost and muddled. No one had a good argument (though Tony's was at least somewhat positive for the people around them), and Cap's 'side' basically boiled down to 'screw everybody, my old buddy Bucky is the only person in the world who matters.'
It actually undercuts the 'incorruptible icon Steve Rogers' they were going for in F&WS, because from Civil War on, Cap has mostly come across as a selfish little brat.
You are by all means welcome to like whatever you like and like it to the extent you like it. I am not in any capacity arguing that how you feel about the film is wrong. You can have your opinions.
But your assessment of things like Caps "side" ignores actual plot and dialog in the movie.
I get that the dialog and scenes didn't resonate with you. Cool. But the actual dialog has caps argument as a significantly different thing then you present here.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
I like what Voss is laying down. That is why I think all of the Marvel movies sucked and were trivial except for End Game. That is the only movie where anything of consequence happens, everything else is just pointless.
Lance845 wrote: You are by all means welcome to like whatever you like and like it to the extent you like it. I am not in any capacity arguing that how you feel about the film is wrong. You can have your opinions.
But your assessment of things like Caps "side" ignores actual plot and dialog in the movie.
I get that the dialog and scenes didn't resonate with you. Cool. But the actual dialog has caps argument as a significantly different thing then you present here.
For what it's worth, I had a similar opinion after the first watch. In the comics, Steve's stand makes sense in a civil liberties context. In the movie, I went away from the first viewing with the idea that he was just objecting to having to follow orders, which was an odd stand for a guy who was supposed to be the posterbook soldier, and seemed like a supremely selfish and dickish move.
Watching the movies a second time, and closer together so I had less time to forget preceding details, I caught the bits that I missed... Steve's stand in Civil War didn't come from nowhere. They laid the groundwork in the previous movies, slowly building on the idea that he was supposed to be a good person, not a good soldier. He was fine with taking orders... but happy to ignore them when they were the 'wrong' orders, specifically when those orders stopped him from doing what he perceived to be the right thing to do. So his opposition in Civil War comes from the idea that ceding control of the Avengers to a government agency could put them in the position of not being able to help people in need because some politician doesn't approve of it. And in the wake of Shield turning out to be controlled by Hydra, that's not at all an unreasonable or selfish position.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2021/04/25 21:24:27
Lance845 wrote: You are by all means welcome to like whatever you like and like it to the extent you like it. I am not in any capacity arguing that how you feel about the film is wrong. You can have your opinions.
But your assessment of things like Caps "side" ignores actual plot and dialog in the movie.
I get that the dialog and scenes didn't resonate with you. Cool. But the actual dialog has caps argument as a significantly different thing then you present here.
For what it's worth, I had a similar opinion after the first watch. In the comics, Steve's stand makes sense in a civil liberties context. In the movie, I went away from the first viewing with the idea that he was just objecting to having to follow orders, which was an odd stand for a guy who was supposed to be the posterbook soldier, and seemed like a supremely selfish and dickish move.
Watching the movies a second time, and closer together so I had less time to forget preceding details, I caught the bits that I missed... Steve's stand in Civil War didn't come from nowhere. They laid the groundwork in the previous movies, slowly building on the idea that he was supposed to be a good person, not a good soldier. He was fine with taking orders... but happy to ignore them when they were the 'wrong' orders, specifically when those orders stopped him from doing what he perceived to be the right thing to do. So his opposition in Civil War comes from the idea that ceding control of the Avengers to a government agency could put them in the position of not being able to help people in need because some politician doesn't approve of it. And in the wake of Shield turning out to be controlled by Hydra, that's not at all an unreasonable or selfish position.
"This takes away our right to choose."
He also makes a point about responsibility. When the Avengers do wrong it's on the Avengers to make amends and the Avengers that can be held responsible. The Sokovia Accords take the responsibility away from them. Now they are "just following orders". And the future of what the Avengers would become is a UN agency. A super powered strike team that might as well be faceless monsters deployed for political agendas. "Because people have agendas. And agendas can change."
Lets not forget that Cap was actually right to back Bucky either. The whole movie he argues that if other people get to Bucky first A) they would try to kill him instead of arrest him (true) and B) Bucky would hurt people in the confrontation (also true. Without the massive amount of troopers there Cap probably could have bought in Bucky on his own without any violence). The government would have killed and gotten people killed over a fake out perpetuated by Zemo. It's not till Tony is leaving the Raft and gets his update about who Zemo was along with all the evidence that he was the UN bomber that he finally decided Cap was right all along and he needed to go help him catch the actual bad guy.
The kung fu fight that blew up an airport was a government super hero team being deployed to stop the heroes who were trying to catch the actual villain responsible for the UN Bombing that kicked off most of the events of the movie. It's a snap shot of what the Avengers would become under the accords. Almost useless.
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2021/04/25 22:40:39
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Albertorius wrote: ...I loathe the comics two Civil War events with the fury of a thousand suns.
Thankfully the MCU Civil War movie has very little to do either of those event comics.
For starters, the MCU Civil War doesn't turn Tony (and Reed) into moustache-twirling villains who mind control villains and create an extra-dimensional prison.
Reed Richards has been a complete piece of gak since issue 1 of the FF. He's not a complete villain, but he has done incredible amounts of harm to a ton of people, including his own family, with thoughtless abandon for years.
Check this out.
Ben Grimm: "I am so upset. I am a monster. I am not even a person anymore. I am what Sussie called me.. a Thing. "
Reed: "And I'll be Mr. Fantastic!"
What a prick!
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Lance845 wrote: Reed Richards has been a complete piece of gak since issue 1 of the FF. He's not a complete villain, but he has done incredible amounts of harm to a ton of people, including his own family, with thoughtless abandon for years.
Check this out.
Ben Grimm: "I am so upset. I am a monster. I am not even a person anymore. I am what Sussie called me.. a Thing. "
Reed: "And I'll be Mr. Fantastic!"
What a prick!
The main universe version has always basically been a socially inept guy that only really gets by because of his massive intellect. That's why him becoming a villain in the Ultimate universe made sense given that he was kinda bordering on the amoral side of science to begin with.
Just remember, if you ever find yourself somehow getting transported to an alternate dimension, find that dimension’s Reed Richards. He can probably get you home.
Naw, remember that the vast majority of universes Reed Richards don't even pretend to be a nice guy. They got together and formed the Council of Reeds (It's where the Council of Ricks comes from). A bunch of them have their universes infinity Gauntlets and they are straight up monsters.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Albertorius wrote: ...I loathe the comics two Civil War events with the fury of a thousand suns.
Thankfully the MCU Civil War movie has very little to do either of those event comics.
For starters, the MCU Civil War doesn't turn Tony (and Reed) into moustache-twirling villains who mind control villains and create an extra-dimensional prison.
The main universe version has always basically been a socially inept guy that only really gets by because of his massive intellect. That's why him becoming a villain in the Ultimate universe made sense given that he was kinda bordering on the amoral side of science to begin with.
Which is why Venture Brothers could skewer him, and the whole Fantastic Four, so readily...
Valete,
JohnS
Valete,
JohnS
"You don't believe data - you test data. If I could put my finger on the moment we genuinely <expletive deleted> ourselves, it was the moment we decided that data was something you could use words like believe or disbelieve around"
The main universe version has always basically been a socially inept guy that only really gets by because of his massive intellect. That's why him becoming a villain in the Ultimate universe made sense given that he was kinda bordering on the amoral side of science to begin with.
Which is why Venture Brothers could skewer him, and the whole Fantastic Four, so readily...
Valete,
JohnS
YES, exactly. Venture Bros' take on Professor Impossible is pretty much on point with his personality. Hell, Venture Bros as a show is spot on for all the tropes of the whole superhero genre. Which is why I will never forgive Adult Swim for cancelling them on such short notice *shakes fist angrily*
I don’t know that I would call being canceled as you’re just starting writing scripts two years after the previous season finished airing short notice. Don’t get me wrong, I loved the show, but they were Really slow getting it out.
You know, after over a year off of MCU cinematic offerings, I am wondering if the break is what we needed.
Let’s face it, they lucked out after a fashion. Imagine if Nurgle’s Bounty had hit just after Infinity War, delaying End Game?
Because we’re only talking a small window in time.
Everything else has been pushed back, barring the D+ offerings (which I’ve thoroughly enjoyed). Could this break for consumers see us embrace the four films coming this year all the more, as confirmation vaccine enabled normality has returned?
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
Without rewatching it, I'll guess it's thingy from GOT, he's in Eternals and they look alike.
We find comfort among those who agree with us - growth among those who don't. - Frank Howard Clark
The wise man doubts often, and changes his mind; the fool is obstinate, and doubts not; he knows all things but his own ignorance.
The correct statement of individual rights is that everyone has the right to an opinion, but crucially, that opinion can be roundly ignored and even made fun of, particularly if it is demonstrably nonsense!” Professor Brian Cox
Easy E wrote: That is an aggressive line-up of movies. It seems hard to believe they can keep up that level of momentum and skill with that pace.
These movies all have a 4-5 year development cycle a lot of which is the CGI. That engine never stopped, but the release of films did. It just feels aggressive because the entire year of 2020 movies got pushed back and now there's a backlog to release. They've announced 11 films from now to 2023 and if you include 2020 in there, that's about the same 3 films a year they were doing throughout phase 3.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: You know, after over a year off of MCU cinematic offerings, I am wondering if the break is what we needed.
Let’s face it, they lucked out after a fashion. Imagine if Nurgle’s Bounty had hit just after Infinity War, delaying End Game?
Because we’re only talking a small window in time.
Everything else has been pushed back, barring the D+ offerings (which I’ve thoroughly enjoyed). Could this break for consumers see us embrace the four films coming this year all the more, as confirmation vaccine enabled normality has returned?
It's impossibly fortunate that the break happened when it did. WandaVision alone benefitted so much from an audience looking for anything that any concerns over franchise fatigue or just the general feeling that we'd hit a point of closure and could move on just vanished. Somehow time blipped and we went from waning interest to what can only be described as nostalgia for something that never really went away.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/05/03 18:04:21
