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Voss wrote:
Ok, wow. Yeah, you're missing something big: that you can recite a comic run chapter and verse is not the basic expectation of comic book movies/shows. Certainly not the MCU. They (usually) want a broader audience, and don't have any expectations that you already know the story and can fill in all the details from memory.

And yet, in this case, it very much was, and all the promotion materials I saw leaned, heavily, on that.

Also, it's not like they're actually following any story beats from it either, just the overall feel.

I would agree it's probably not the best way to go about engaging your regular moviegoer audience, but here we are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

trexmeyer wrote:
At this point in time, Hailee Steinfeld is an average to below average actress and she isn't getting anything special to work with in Hawkeye.

Well, I don't know... she's incredibly good in Arcane as Vi's voice actress, so maybe not "average to below average". At least on that department.

trexmeyer wrote:

I think Clint is supposed to be over it and Renner is intentionally doing that. It makes sense for that character.

yeah thats exactly it, the character is old, he's on his way out, this is his last rodeo, and he was kinda roped into it. He doesn't wanna be there, he wants to be come wit his family, celebrating christmas.


seriously if this was a westren he'd be that old cowboy pulled out of retirement by busniess he'd long forgotten about...

Haily was legit good in Bumblebee. Not that this is a high bar but she was the only tolerable human character in any live action transformers. But she wasn't JUST tolerable. She is GOOD in the movie. I was excited for her casting as Kate Bishop based on that.

 Lance845 wrote:
See, i can understand why someone might argue that the plot is weak. I don't agree, but i can see where they might be coming from. But personally i get far more enjoyment from character driven narratives than plot driven. And this is character driven. Not unlike umbrella academy where the "plot" was a couple layers of nonsense that most of the characters had nothing to do with. But the CHARACTERS and their personal gak drove the show.

The argument that Jeremy Renner doesn't look like he wants to be there when clint Barton LITTERALLY doesn't want to be there is crazy to me. He is playing that character in a situation he litterally wants no part in but is trying to set things straight and protect this dumb kid who is in over her head.

Hailey Steinfeld being called lost when her character is lost and confused is equally crazy. Giving praise to Pugh for having cleae direction when her character is the character that has a solid goal she wants very much right in front of her.

It's called acting. And its happening. And that character driven element is the shows strongest points. Seeing how beat down clint is by all his losses is great and humanizing.

Maybe some of us expect more 2 dimensional stories from these characters? I am really glad to have the depth.

I'd love for there to be more than 2 dimensions to anything in this show. 'Everyone is exactly as you expect them to be' and 'everything is handed over on a silver platter' is... not that. Everything is very one-note.
The dog exists to point the viewers (but not the cast) to the McGuffin and to out Kate in the Ronin outfit. Swordsman exists to hold out the sword for Clint and as a 'is she or isn't she' beard for villain mom. (we seriously joked (but not really) about that in Episode 1)
Kate has ticked through the standard phases of 'heroes' protege' of enthusiasm, doubt and renewed resolve like <obscentiy> clockwork. Same for Clint and mentorship, down to refusing the call and going right back in.

Its in the running for the most shallow, by the numbers show or movie the MCU has produced yet.

People are making the mistake of thinking that just because I'm pointing out that the show doesn't really have a story that I somehow dislike it.

I don't. I think it's fun, I like the characters, and I'm enjoying it. But it has no real story.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
People are making the mistake of thinking that just because I'm pointing out that the show doesn't really have a story that I somehow dislike it.

I don't. I think it's fun, I like the characters, and I'm enjoying it. But it has no real story.

It has some plots, but that is mainly true. So far it seems much more interested on introducing new characters to the MCU (Maya, Fisk, Swordsman, Kate) or reinforcing new ones (Yelena, hell, even Laura) than on doing anything really interesting plot wise.

I have been enjoying the character bits of the series and I'm really fond of Fractions's comic, but this is what it is.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
People are making the mistake of thinking that just because I'm pointing out that the show doesn't really have a story that I somehow dislike it.

I don't. I think it's fun, I like the characters, and I'm enjoying it. But it has no real story.

Bad MCU is generally well above average overall.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
People are making the mistake of thinking that just because I'm pointing out that the show doesn't really have a story that I somehow dislike it.

I don't. I think it's fun, I like the characters, and I'm enjoying it. But it has no real story.

I'd agree with that. It's literally a show like others have said to retire Hawkeye and introduce a slew of new characters. And the new characters are well done so I'm good with it.

Also Hailee is a damn gem in this. She has been fantastic and fun and suitably over the top for someone exposed at the age she was to what she was.

Obviously Pugh is awesome and having fun with it. She WANTED this gig badly as an actress and she's good.

Overall I'm really enjoying this. I'm sad it only has a single episode left. Didn't realize it was a 6 episode run. Thought it was 8.

 Hulksmash wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
People are making the mistake of thinking that just because I'm pointing out that the show doesn't really have a story that I somehow dislike it.

I don't. I think it's fun, I like the characters, and I'm enjoying it. But it has no real story.

I'd agree with that. It's literally a show like others have said to retire Hawkeye and introduce a slew of new characters. And the new characters are well done so I'm good with it.

Also Hailee is a damn gem in this. She has been fantastic and fun and suitably over the top for someone exposed at the age she was to what she was.

Obviously Pugh is awesome and having fun with it. She WANTED this gig badly as an actress and she's good.

Overall I'm really enjoying this. I'm sad it only has a single episode left. Didn't realize it was a 6 episode run. Thought it was 8.

It's a christmas movie, so it ends in christmas week ^^

I'm... not 100% sure this is a Clint retirement.

I think this might be a Clint reawakening? I think the point here is to come to terms with his past and maybe picking up a bit of Kate's optimism. Realizing that maybe he doesn't just have to be a weapon. That he could be more. That he COULD be a hero.

And from there maybe keep doing some more work but doing it without the baggage. The bit in the last episode where he's talking to Nat and says he's is trying to earn the chance she gave him would fit in with that. That he's taking this opportunity and not just retiring but being and doing more.

 Albertorius wrote:

It's a christmas movie, so it ends in christmas week ^^

Interesting... so just like the first Die Hard movie. I had somewhat forgotten about the Christmas element in it after the first episode to be honest.

 Lance845 wrote:
I'm... not 100% sure this is a Clint retirement.

I think this might be a Clint reawakening? I think the point here is to come to terms with his past and maybe picking up a bit of Kate's optimism. Realizing that maybe he doesn't just have to be a weapon. That he could be more. That he COULD be a hero.

And from there maybe keep doing some more work but doing it without the baggage. The bit in the last episode where he's talking to Nat and says he's is trying to earn the chance she gave him would fit in with that. That he's taking this opportunity and not just retiring but being and doing more.

I don't think so, Clint the character has had a foot out the door since Ultron, and Renner is beginning to look tired (he's just turned 50, and it's got to be getting harder to stay in superhero shape.)

I don't think we'll get a hard retirement like Steve and Tony have (so far) received, but I think we'll see a shift to a mentor style, occasional guest star role going forward. If for no other reason than keeping the old guard too prominent doesn't allow the audience to move on or give the new characters chance to breathe.

We’re definitely seeing a building of Next Avengers.

In Hawkeye, we’re kind of seeing the Tony/Peter dynamic, though Clint is much more “sins of the father” due to the legacy of the Ronin suit.

I reckon we’re in for an intermediate period, where the Originals are still around, but shifting more to mentoring, and passing down their own lessons in the hope of creating more responsible/aware successors.

That’s not to say the existing heroes are reckless, so much as they were the first to ride their particular learning curve. They’ll have experience and even expertise that just wasn’t there to be taught beforehand.

Hawkeye finale.

That was a hell of a lot of fun! And again we see them taking advantage of Disney+ shows not having a particularly strict episode run time.

I think WandaVision is still the best of the bunch, especially for the fluid episode run times. I suspect it must be quite freeing for the showrunners. After all, if one chapter can be competently told in 25 minutes, they don’t need to be packing it out for syndication.

Post credits scene too, which is rather fun.

Crazy action finale go. Overall I liked it. So many trick arrows. So many more Tracksuits. Like my god that was a lot of Tracksuits.

Kingpin was…

That's it? That's all we get of him?

One and done?

What a fething waste of time that was...

Someone said Maya is getting a show? One would assume he’ll feature more in that as well.

Yeah, if it’s not on-screen, it didn’t happen and won’t stick

Also I loved the conclusion of the watch. So it was more a Shield thing than an Iron Man thing (for as much a difference as that makes in later stuff) but I was otherwise right about it’s purpose in the show.

They did Kingpin dirty.

trexmeyer wrote:
They did Kingpin dirty.

There was a moment at the beginning of the episode where it looked like they might do something interesting with him. But... the moment immediately passed and they went all mob boss stereotype (with him and Kazi) to fill out the remaining run time.
Presumably his final off-screen scene involved him turning Maya into part of the landscape of that alley (and a miraculous escape on her part). After the ridiculous display of invulnerability in FAO Schwartz, a single shot from her little popgun isn't going to do squat.

Anyway, glad its over. Disappointed but not surprised.

Highlights for the episode-
Jack just being comic relief. Everyone else being exactly what they appeared to be and nothing else, down to the point of being unable to make new choices (presumably because the script said so, and it just didn't have time for character development)

The 30 minute response time for cops and emergency services to a sniper at Rockefeller center. Followed by armed gangs, explosions and more explosions. Also, the worst sniper ever (the job is not 'just keep shooting' then run down to keep sniping at point blank range until someone takes your rifle away.).

The utter destruction of Rockefeller center (by the heroes) not being addressed by... anyone.

LARP gear as appropriate attire for crowd control and aid. Rather than... their actual uniforms. The ongoing LARP 'gag' was baffling all the way through. I guess they committed to the bit, but I have no idea why.

The mid credits sequence as the worst one ever in the history of the MCU. Don't watch, you miss nothing.

Biggest surprise: Yelena not being there for the epilogue. Cheesy, but cheesy was where I thought they were going with everything at that point.
--

Anyway, Kate and Yelena will be interesting when they finally get to a real movie or show. In the meantime, the fanfiction will presumably write itself, starting with them getting that drink afterwards. (Haha- the joke is on me. We're already 99 fanfics in. SFW Only link:
https://archiveofourown.org/works?utf8=%E2%9C%93&work_search%5Bsort_column%5D=revised_at&work_search%5Bother_tag_names%5D=&exclude_work_search%5Brating_ids%5D%5B%5D=13&exclude_work_search%5Brating_ids%5D%5B%5D=9&exclude_work_search%5Brating_ids%5D%5B%5D=12&work_search%5Bexcluded_tag_names%5D=&work_search%5Bcrossover%5D=&work_search%5Bcomplete%5D=&work_search%5Bwords_from%5D=&work_search%5Bwords_to%5D=&work_search%5Bdate_from%5D=&work_search%5Bdate_to%5D=&work_search%5Bquery%5D=&work_search%5Blanguage_id%5D=&commit=Sort+and+Filter&tag_id=Yelena+Belova*s*Kate+Bishop

Why would you link that? No one should ever see that. That Kate/Yelena fanfiction turned my stomach at just the description.

trexmeyer wrote:
Why would you link that? No one should ever see that. That Kate/Yelena fanfiction turned my stomach at just the description.

Because the sheer quantity of queer MCU fanfiction needs to be shared. If Disney won't do it, other people absolutely will.

Besides, its not like it wasn't clear what the link was going to be. You don't have to click things. [Though I changed it to hide the NSFW stories by default. That was my bad]

It's like rubbernecking. The accident is awful, but there is a compulsion to look. I can't believe people write or read that stuff.

For those who didn't get the importance of the watch (like me).

https://www.forbes.com/sites/paultassi/2021/12/22/dont-miss-the-significance-of-the-hawkeye-finales-watch-shield-mockingbird-19/?sh=2b6db260311b

I thought it would end up being some Iron Man Civil War (?) style armor that turns into a weaponized gauntlet but no such luck apparently. Just an easter egg.

The finale was ok but the build up was better in my opinion.

trexmeyer wrote:
It's like rubbernecking. The accident is awful, but there is a compulsion to look. I can't believe people write or read that stuff.

Because... gays are bad? I'm not sure what you're going for here, but that's what I'm catch the edge of, due to sheer intensity of opinion (and 'turned my stomach at just the description' is an unfortunate choice of words if that isn't what you were going for).

There is a lot of awfully bad fanfic. There's also a fair amount that transcends the original authors. Learning how to sort them is definitely a skill that isn't worth a lot of people's time, but your intensity on the subject is weird. Specifically the disbelief- sometimes people just like the characters and the original author can't or won't provide. So they go looking for what they want elsewhere- they've been doing it since Kirk & Spock, and Dennis L McKiernan basically was a Tolkien fanfic writer who somehow got published around the wishes of the Tolkien estate.

Voss wrote:

trexmeyer wrote:
It's like rubbernecking. The accident is awful, but there is a compulsion to look. I can't believe people write or read that stuff.

Because... gays are bad? I'm not sure what you're going for here, but that's what I'm catch the edge of, due to sheer intensity of opinion (and 'turned my stomach at just the description' is an unfortunate choice of words if that isn't what you were going for).

Are you seriously accusing me of homophobia because I don't like erotic fanfiction? LMAO

Too much fandom is focused on the idea that two women can't just be friends, or that two men can't just be friends. They simply have to be gay for one another.

Combine that with standard (READ: insane) shipper mentality that shows often breed, and we get people demanding that certain characters get together because they can't accept anything different.

trexmeyer wrote:
Why would you link that? No one should ever see that. That Kate/Yelena fanfiction turned my stomach at just the description.

Because for some odd reason fanfic writers think their work matters, and because you are a despicable person if you don't support, condone, and endorse people projecting themselves into literally everything they aren't actually portrayed in. The TF fandom is far worse...

Watched the last episode. You guys were right about that watch Mcguffin. Swooped in at the last second to save the day.