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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. There's literally almost twice the text on the new entry
2. Everything you described was a nerf to 5-9 man squads, especially the players that liked 7 man squads for Nurgle fluff reasons.

And what happened then? Well, in Dakkaville they say that Slayer-Fan123's heart grew three sizes!

Never thought I would see Slayer-Fan be a fluff-bunny. Welcome home!

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

yeah, and people were asking for the exact opposite of what GW did. We wanted the kits to have all the weapons options, not the options to be stripped out.

Yea, man. I get it. You should be able to do that if you're crazy enough to tackle that project and GW might yet change its mind. But I do think it might be unfair to those without the same means to accomplish those conversions.

The horse left the barn a while ago with the mono-pose stuff. It seems to me that DG got the shaft in that regard, because a lot of other new kits haven't had that same treatment. GW may have had to push stylized out kits fast for the release of 8th.

I do not look forward to CSM Terminators and chain axes ( the lack of monopose may save them - we'll see soon enough I suppose ).

Where is it written it has to be fair in terms of capability ? I know plenty of people so rich they just toss money at any issue, even this game. I can't hope to keep up with all the variety and having like 3 of any unit in every configuration expertly painted for them. For them, this is no issue at all. If we all have the wargear options, we at least have the choice to scrounge up the bits, do the hobby work for our units and make them what we want. Equality of opportunity not equality of outcomes. I have been behind the 8 ball because I don't put limitless funds into the game but I have put in time and patience to search for those options I wanted, when I can.

Defending these dumb choices is really daft to me. They make the squad feel lame, it feels bad and it's overly penalizing for no reason other than someone feeling we are unable to find, get, craft or otherwise understand how to make the units we want. Disrespecting time, effort and desire. Like you still end up with two specials in 5-9 man squads, but it can't be the same one because, someone would feel bad I found another plasma and they didn't ? So why can't these same people get two boxes and and then run one with 2 blight launchers and one with 2 plasma at 7 man ? Is that really over the top amazing ?

It's a dumb idea they had, and people are right to be annoyed, me included.

TangoTwoBravo wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

1. There's literally almost twice the text on the new entry
2. Everything you described was a nerf to 5-9 man squads, especially the players that liked 7 man squads for Nurgle fluff reasons.

And what happened then? Well, in Dakkaville they say that Slayer-Fan123's heart grew three sizes!

Never thought I would see Slayer-Fan be a fluff-bunny. Welcome home!

You have to realize I'm against fluff lists being bad as a whole, hence me being critical of the rules. So when people's lists suddenly become illegal (Poxwalker horde or 7 man Plague Marine loadouts) or plain bad (the eventual fall of Ynnari, as OP as they were), there is an obligation to call out GW instead of praising them.

BuT gUy'S anD sINgULar Gal , Gw GoOd , sEe frEe ptS uPDatE, gw BeST for VetEranS ....

nvm all the typos and frankly lackluster new equipment System, or that we recently got 2 armies shafted into Legend, or that playtesting is obviously not heeded and proofreading is for wimps.


God that hurt to write out.
Gw has done this for 2 reasons:

Chapterhouse fallout
Spite 3rd Parties

feth the people that had converted their minis.
I guess i can now shelve my power maul honor guard before i even finished them.

Nah you deserved it because ALL the Honour Guard having Power Mauls is minmaxing!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nah you deserved it because ALL the Honour Guard having Power Mauls is minmaxing!

Which is in my case ironic as i Started out as a rather waac player , .


Regardless this doesn't Bode well , in other News does that mean vostroyan guardsmen will also get the Stock because plasma is verboten for mainline squads...

No models no rules? SM codex and its supplements beg to differ.

Wolf Guard terminators can take any sort of weapons, half of them are not included in the codex.

Firstborn SW infantries, both on foot or jump packs, can still take flamers and meltas with none of those bitz in their box.

Bjorn the Fell Handed can still take a Twin Lascannon, despite there isn't one in the kit.

Characters, on foot or mount, can have multiple loadouts, including options that only available by kitbashing.

I also highly doubt that the upcoming ork codex will cut the Big Mek with KFF and I doubt GW will release a model as well. At the moment, one of the best ork HQs doesn't even have an official model.

The no model/bitz no rule is not universal. It's definitely a trend, but not a real rule.

Not Online!!! wrote:
feth the people that had converted their minis.

It's not even converted minis. My Death Guard army, which I've had since the 3.5 Codex, is 4 7-man squads, two with 2x Melta and two with 2x Plasma. They are illegal now. But someone who started playing last week could have the exact same config, and their army is also illegal.

It's so fething stupid.

 BaconCatBug wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
The more I tthinka bout this, it's not really a nerf. It's actually pretty good unless you were one of the people spamming a single weapon.

You could take in a 10-man squad:

* 2 plasma guns AND 2 blight launchers, plus a plasma on the champion.

* 2 plague spewers and 2 plague belchers

* 2 flails of corruption AND 2 plague cleavers.

That is not a nerf at all Just what you can't do is take all the guys with one of the melee weapons (axe I think was popular)

now Blightlords yes it's a nerf you can't spam combi-plasma.

TIL wanting your units to have a focus instead of being forced to have a worthless mishmash of weapons is "spamming". I bet you also think taking a Devastator squad with 4 Lascannons to act as an anti-tank unit rather than taking 1 Lascannon, 1 Heavy Bolter, 1 Missile Launcher, and 1 Plasma Cannon is also "spam".

Also, Death Guard Terminators have been able to take multiple Combi-Plasma for years if not decades. This change makes units some people have had for years or decades unable to be used, all because of corporate greed. GW have a market value of £3b. They don't need you to defend them.

CSM Termies (of all stripes) have been able to take as many combi meltas/flamers as they like since their inception, that was kinda their thing. 4th ed CSM dex retconned Chaos having access to combi plasma as well and they've had these options ever since circa 2006/7 IIRC.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
feth the people that had converted their minis.

It's not even converted minis. My Death Guard army, which I've had since the 3.5 Codex, is 4 7-man squads, two with 2x Melta and two with 2x Plasma. They are illegal now. But someone who started playing last week could have the exact same config, and their army is also illegal.

It's so fething stupid.

Yeap, those were may squads as well, I never would have imagined they'd make such normal squads not legal it's madness.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
feth the people that had converted their minis.

It's not even converted minis. My Death Guard army, which I've had since the 3.5 Codex, is 4 7-man squads, two with 2x Melta and two with 2x Plasma. They are illegal now. But someone who started playing last week could have the exact same config, and their army is also illegal.

It's so fething stupid.

Yes, it is. It's probably going to actually end up costing gw money. If you want combi-weapons for all of your Blightlords you either A) Buy more kits to get the required bits, B) Buy the bits from bits sellers, who have to buy the kits in the first place in order to part them out, or C) Trade with someone who ALSO had to buy the kits. Now everyone will just buy one box, because that's all you can use.

I get the feeling whatever middle manager came up with this rule is going to hear from their boss.....

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
feth the people that had converted their minis.

It's not even converted minis. My Death Guard army, which I've had since the 3.5 Codex, is 4 7-man squads, two with 2x Melta and two with 2x Plasma. They are illegal now. But someone who started playing last week could have the exact same config, and their army is also illegal.

It's so fething stupid.

Honestly it is either that or to spite 3rd Parties and 3d printers, except that the spite /stupidity will Fall back on them.

What makes this especially offending is that it's happening on an army that's been released 3 years ago when no models no rules was already in effect. Chapterhouse and 3rd Party minis were already there, there's not been a change in the last three years, so it's totally arbitrary to put out these restrictions now.
And it doesn't hit older players mainly. Older players have 40 Plague Marines and will find a playable loadout. Older players also raised an eyebrow when we lost pistols, Plasma pistols and chainswords, but admittedly there were never Minis with these so there was little actual complaining and people just used their chainsword PM as Double knife PM. But now? They've been selling 3 additional kinds of PM kits alongside the main Box so even or especially new players will get hit by this, nobody bought 5 times the PM Main Box and built exactly what's in the kit because it would look terrible with how individual the PM look.

It seems like GW wants to reverse the normal flow of power creep - newer codexes will be WORSE than previous ones now!

Wayniac wrote:
I have no problem with this whatsoever. serves you right for looking to spam whatever was determined to be the most effective.

I have long been of the opinion that the unit should only allow what comes in the box so you only need to buy one box to create a unit none of this crap buying multiple boxes or trying to hunt for bits or recast or 3D print that doesn't extra pieces that you need to equip them all the same.

Good riddance

I have 30 Blightlords (and yes, I have run them all at once before) 7 have combi meltas, 2 combi flamers, 3 plague spewers, 2 blight launchers and a reaper autocannon spread across them. feth me, right?

Now, I've been playing since 2nd- I've been through this rigmarole before, I've been through this with my SWs in the jump to the 5th ed codex when before, Blood Claws could take 1 powerfist/weapon per 5 and were in squads of up to 15, then both got bumped down. But this? This is on another level? It smacks of favouritism for loyalists (again. "And they shall know no unfavourable rules changes!") and GW is once again effectively telling converters and kitbashers they are not welcome.

GW, you entire empire is built on players being able to do their guys, that is what set you apart from other companies. Now, apparently people all of a sudden have gak for brains and cannot work out that not all options in a box are usable at the same time, so GW instead of, slow walking them to this epiphany, like they have done with new layers in the past for time immemorial, now just cow to them because reasons.

I don't get how people can say this is good because it stops min maxing, when this is the first codex this edition designed like this and the other codices this edition (including loyalist marines) have not had this done to them.

How do you defend that? It is a paradigm shift part way through an edition.

The message is: Only play Loyalist Marines.

The message is :
feth coordinating and common ruleswritig/vision

 Vector Strike wrote:
It seems like GW wants to reverse the normal flow of power creep - newer codexes will be WORSE than previous ones now!

Outside of these changes, this is simply not true. Death Guard got a ton of beneficial changes aside from this.

 Da Boss wrote:
I don't get how people can say this is good because it stops min maxing...

It doesn't even do anything to prevent min-maxing. You can still have five Plague Marines with two plasma guns and a blight launcher. (But one plasma gun and two blight launchers, or three plasma guns is obviously crazy!)

Plus, now you can max-maxing with a ten strong squad with three plasma guns and two blight launchers!

Putting my corporate accountant hat back on - these dumb essays of unit entries are not for the benefit of player experience, it is just so that GW can send a message to investors that they have a corporate policy in place that is effectively shutting 3rd parties out of their market as they have no legal ability to do so via courts (imagine a car manufacturer having the gall to sue a 3rd party oil filter producer). Apparently this protectionism is good for business (despite the obvious frustration to actual customers).

What annoys me the most is that growth and profitability at GW will be taken as solid gold proof that this policy is flawless, taking no notice that it is just a stupid policy coinciding with the biggest shake up of the flagship marine range since 3rd edition plastics.

 Da Boss wrote:
That is some crazy gak. I would see this as "testing the waters" and suggest that if you think this is dumb you send them a mail to let them know so they know it was a bad idea.

I would bet this is from some middle manager who thinks this idea is GENIUS and won't listen to reason about it.

By now huge chunk of codexes are done. Not much testing waters except end of 9e/start of 10e

Insularum wrote:
Putting my corporate accountant hat back on - these dumb essays of unit entries are not for the benefit of player experience, it is just so that GW can send a message to investors that they have a corporate policy in place that is effectively shutting 3rd parties out of their market as they have no legal ability to do so via courts (imagine a car manufacturer having the gall to sue a 3rd party oil filter producer). Apparently this protectionism is good for business (despite the obvious frustration to actual customers).

It does absolutely nothing to prevent anybody else making 'Diseased Space Knights' with exactly the same equipment.

It does limit the amount of 'Combination Energy Bolt Weapons' a 3rd party might be able to sell, but that clearly isn't GW's concern because loyalist Marines can still take combi-weapons all over the place.

 Vector Strike wrote:
It seems like GW wants to reverse the normal flow of power creep - newer codexes will be WORSE than previous ones now!

Really?

Marine codex. Big buff over 8e
Necrons: even bigger buff vs 8e
Dg: big buff

Codex creep is going faster rather than less. Wolves are worst new codex so far and being marines they still good, maybe even better than were in 8e(hard to make supplement to marines that sucks. Worse than ba or ws but still marines)

Honestly other than the combi plasma blightlords not much else changed and death guard was a fairly limited faction to begin with as far as options. I guess you're screwed if you built a crazy melee unit too.

Now if they carry this on to the regular CSM codex then we riot because those have actual options. Although I would bet terminators suffer this fate I would be shocked if say havocs or chaos Marines were limited.

 Da Boss wrote:
I don't get how people can say this is good because it stops min maxing, when this is the first codex this edition designed like this and the other codices this edition (including loyalist marines) have not had this done to them.

How do you defend that? It is a paradigm shift part way through an edition.

The message is: Only play Loyalist Marines.

Paradigm change betwebn edition is normal for gw.

Albeit this would be rare fast. But could be individual case. Speaking of which what's situation for core in dg? As punishing as necrons or more like marines where most have core?

 Lord Damocles wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Except you need two boxes to get 10 models, as the kit only comes with 7 (for the price of 10).

Ding ding ding we have a winner!

And once you've bought the second box, you have four left over which you now can't use due to reduced max unit size.

Technically you had the same issue in 8th as 3 boxes did not give you a nice even 20.

The problem with the box is that they decided to market it as fluffy("See Nurgle is 7") but then made that a very inefficient number in both 8th and 9th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Boss wrote:
I don't get how people can say this is good because it stops min maxing, when this is the first codex this edition designed like this and the other codices this edition (including loyalist marines) have not had this done to them.

How do you defend that? It is a paradigm shift part way through an edition.

The message is: Only play Loyalist Marines.

I think the problem is that GW doesn't have the courage to do anything to Loyalist Marines and ends up favoring them over other factions. Technically nothing new, but it has been reaching a certain zenith as of late.

If they do continue down this path it will reflect on how badly they provide loadouts in their kits even moreso.

 Da Boss wrote:
I don't get how people can say this is good because it stops min maxing, when this is the first codex this edition designed like this and the other codices this edition (including loyalist marines) have not had this done to them.

How do you defend that? It is a paradigm shift part way through an edition.

Or maybe not & it'll prove to be a one-off pile of poo and serve as the rational to sell DG players a 2nd codex in about 18 months....

Wayniac wrote:
Honestly other than the combi plasma blightlords not much else changed and death guard was a fairly limited faction to begin with as far as options. I guess you're screwed if you built a crazy melee unit too.

Now if they carry this on to the regular CSM codex then we riot because those have actual options. Although I would bet terminators suffer this fate I would be shocked if say havocs or chaos Marines were limited.

The thing is Havoc Aspiring Champions in the current model kit don't have bits for anything but special weapons (default is a Flamer). Given what Death Guard just experienced, I could see the 9th ed C:CSM taking that away. I also don't think it would be too far of a stretch for Havocs to be limited to 4 choices from this list: 2 Lascannons, 2 Missile Launchers, 2 Autocannons, 2 Heavy Bolters, 1 Reaper Chaincannon. It still does allow for heavy armor and light armor loadouts. It's just extremely annoying to have to construct them as Havoc squads are going to have 2-3 different Heavy Weapons as well as a usually pretty worthless Aspiring Champion special weapon.

I feel more comfortable that regular Chaos Space Marines won't lose anything except perhaps the Reaper Chaincannon. Although, it wouldn't surprise me if GW forgot that the Shadowspear/current Start Collecting CSM have an ETB marine with Autocannon which could also go away as an option. We are talking about a group that literally FAQ'ed away non-Champion Chosen with dual Lightning Claws when the Dark Vengeance Chosen had exactly that model. It could still be used as the Aspiring Champion for Chosen, but that's not what the model was in Dark Vengeance (the Champ was the Power Maul marine). It was annoying having to switch that around when I fielded them.

I will say at this point, I wouldn't be completely shocked if CSM go to Missile Launcher and Heavy Bolter as their only Heavy Weapon options. The Kill Team CSM player in me wouldn't even be that surprised if it was just the Heavy Bolter even if the current CSM model kit has the Missile Launcher as a bit.

My Deathwatch Veterans can take: heavy bolters, heavy flamers, missile launchers, combat shields, bolt pistols, grav-pistols, inferno pistols, hand flamers, lightning claws, plasma pistols, power axes, power fists, thunder hammers, flamers, grav-guns, meltaguns, plasma guns and storm bolters... none of which are in the actual Deathwatch Veterans plastic kit at all.

So limiting Death Guard to exactly what's in their plastic kits seems a bit unfair.

 Duskweaver wrote:
My Deathwatch Veterans can take: heavy bolters, heavy flamers, missile launchers, combat shields, bolt pistols, grav-pistols, inferno pistols, hand flamers, lightning claws, plasma pistols, power axes, power fists, thunder hammers, flamers, grav-guns, meltaguns, plasma guns and storm bolters... none of which are in the actual Deathwatch Veterans plastic kit at all.

So limiting Death Guard to exactly what's in their plastic kits seems a bit unfair.

"And they shall know no unfavourable rules changes!"

We all know who the protagonists are and who the NPCs are in this game. GW just made it more obvious than ever before.