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 Xenomancers wrote:
How exactly do dark angels terms just get free 4+ max to wound...but no points increase? Yeah no...

Silly me over here trying to play with tactical terms in my ultras just cause I like them. DA terms will always be better (Significantly). It is just dumb. A space marine terminator is a space marine terminator any minor difference wouldn't even show up in a game where the difference between a human who can lift 300 lbs and a space marine that can lift a car is 1 point of strength.

It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.

you mean these snowflake marines that aren't your snowflake marines?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Xeno does have a point. A Deathwing terminator with a stormbolter and power fist is 38 PPM, while a standard terminator available to any other chapter with a stormbolter and power fist is.....38 PPM. Two models, with the exact same BS, WS, attacks, and wounds, and with the exact same armaments, but one is T4, and the other "Toughness Infinity". How can anyone justify both being the same price?

You are not entirely wrong as there does come to a point that subfaction rules can go too far. However, my custom chapter Re-rolls 1s for Bolt weapons and 6s on the charge/charged score an additional hit. So my Reivers re-roll 1s when shooting and have increased melee hitting compared to other factions while costing the same amount of points as any other chapter's Reivers. Should I pay more for my Reivers, Incessors, Infilrators, Incursors, etc. since they are better than any given chapter? Because boiling down your argument that is what you are saying. Or at least that is what I am hearing.

It is possible that Deathwing sub-subfaction bonuses are too much. I don't know yet. It appears it will be long awhile before I can play someone that I know has Dark Angels. However, I am not ready to make the argument that because their terminators operate different/better with their sub-subfaction rules that they inherently should cost more points. That is a dangerous can of worms to open that could get really messy really fast in the context of how 40k subfaction rules work applied over all the factions/subfactions.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Xeno does have a point. A Deathwing terminator with a stormbolter and power fist is 38 PPM, while a standard terminator available to any other chapter with a stormbolter and power fist is.....38 PPM. Two models, with the exact same BS, WS, attacks, and wounds, and with the exact same armaments, but one is T4, and the other "Toughness Infinity". How can anyone justify both being the same price?

You are not entirely wrong as there does come to a point that subfaction rules can go too far. However, my custom chapter Re-rolls 1s for Bolt weapons and 6s on the charge/charged score an additional hit. So my Reivers re-roll 1s when shooting and have increased melee hitting compared to other factions while costing the same amount of points as any other chapter's Reivers. Should I pay more for my Reivers, Incessors, Infilrators, Incursors, etc. since they are better than any given chapter? Because boiling down your argument that is what you are saying. Or at least that is what I am hearing.

It is possible that Deathwing sub-subfaction bonuses are too much. I don't know yet. It appears it will be long awhile before I can play someone that I know has Dark Angels. However, I am not ready to make the argument that because their terminators operate different/better with their sub-subfaction rules that they inherently should cost more points. That is a dangerous can of worms to open that could get really messy really fast in the context of how 40k subfaction rules work applied over all the factions/subfactions.

That's not "sub-subfaction" rules. That's the rules for Deathwing Terminators, a specific unit, unique to Dark Angels, with its own special rules, including Inner Circle, which grants permanent Transhuman Physiology, whether it's in a Deathwing specific detachment or not. How should it be the same price as a standard terminator? You might as well make Blightlords 38 PPM while you're at it.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
How should it be the same price as a standard terminator?

It should be the same price as standard Terminators for the same reason my chapter's Intercessors should be the same price as standard Intercessors or my Rusted Claw Atalan Jackals should be the same price as standard Jackals.

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
How should it be the same price as a standard terminator?

It should be the same price as standard Terminators for the same reason my chapter's Intercessors should be the same price as standard Intercessors or my Rusted Claw Atalan Jackals should be the same price as standard Jackals.

Pay attention. Deathwing Terminators, are a distinct type of terminators, with their own model kit, and weapon options from standard loyalist terminators. They also, have the Inner Circle special rule, which gives them permanent Transhuman Physiology. It is not the same as the difference between Ultramarine Intercessors and White Scars Intercessors. That's like saying Blightlords and Chaos Terminators are the same thing in different factions. They're not. It has nothing to do with faction rules. They are two different units, and one is better than the other. They shouldn't be the same price. Pricing them differently wouldn't "open up a can of worms" because only Dark Angels can have Deathwing Terminators. Increasing their price would only affect Dark Angels, and no other chapter.

And their price should go up to account for the benefits that the faction confers. Otherwise it's just..."hey look at me, we're EMO marines, we're better than you...." which is lame!

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
How can anyone justify both being the same price?

Creative bankruptcy or, worse, creative apathy?

The good thing here is that since it is a sepaate datasheet, it can be nerfed without nerfing the SM standard termies.

It won't happen though, because IMO DW termies will rarely see play, when for 4 points more than the TH/SS version you can get a DWK...

Spoletta wrote:
The good thing here is that since it is a sepaate datasheet, it can be nerfed without nerfing the SM standard termies.

Which is exactly what I'm trying to explain to Saturmorn.

It won't happen though, because IMO DW termies will rarely see play, when for 4 points more than the TH/SS version you can get a DWK...

Ah, but DWKs can't get obsec in a Deathwing Vanguard detachment. Deathwing Terminators will see plenty of play.

Uhmn, no.

They had ObSec for eons, none was playing them.
They were immune to Morale, none was playing them.
They can deep Strike at 6", none was playing them.
But you know what they have instead? They were costed differently (I think +5 and then +3 points or something like that).

Also, they don't have anything that you couldn't give to your standard Terminator by stratagems when needed (and if you factors Deep Strike and a 5 turn game, it really isn't so useful... Also because the better way to kill Termy is plinking wounds off with small firearms).

They do a single job, sitting on one objective, and to do that you need to play carefully. But yeah once there they are a nightmare to shift. But Necron can steal an objective off their nose with Warriors, and their ObSec can't compete with a true horde due to small number.

Just to make an example, Fall Back + Shoot or Fall Back + Charge are both better on Terminators that a permanent Transhuman.


But what I love is the fact that they are driving crazy the mathammer crowd

Oof, this is hard to take seriously.

did you really just argue, that a permanent transhuman, one of the most broken types of stratagems due to wounding table issues and manipulation, is acceptable?

In a world were VotWL was considered an massive issue, it's counterpart is "fine and dandy to be handed out like candy?"


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
How can anyone justify both being the same price?

Creative bankruptcy or, worse, creative apathy?

Why , that is an old one, they already reached that point some time back.

Why are you guys talking about terminators when inner circle blade guards cost even less (at leats I think they do). Also bladeguards are much tougher than a shield-less terminator.

don't give em ideas addnid...
don't give em ideas.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
How can anyone justify both being the same price?

Creative bankruptcy or, worse, creative apathy?

clealry GW hast tested it, and with the age of soup being behind us, decided that DW termintors with their different rule set within the boundries of a DA army are balanced at the same point cost as different termintor unit in other armies.

My termis have 1 less W, no Trans rule, no TH or stormshields, and I wish they could cost 38pts.

Karol wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
How can anyone justify both being the same price?

Creative bankruptcy or, worse, creative apathy?

clealry GW hast tested it, and with the age of soup being behind us, decided that DW termintors with their different rule set within the boundries of a DA army are balanced at the same point cost as different termintor unit in other armies.

My termis have 1 less W, no Trans rule, no TH or stormshields, and I wish they could cost 38pts.

karol, i am unsure, but are you attempting to be sarcastic?

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
How should it be the same price as a standard terminator?

It should be the same price as standard Terminators for the same reason my chapter's Intercessors should be the same price as standard Intercessors or my Rusted Claw Atalan Jackals should be the same price as standard Jackals.

Or, and this may shock you. Faction buffs should not be free, at all.

GW should have learned this from the disaster that was 7th. Free rules as bad and lead to massive inbalance.
Its effects are limited for most Xenos because you get 1 small rule, but even there we saw it with Alaitoc Eldar costing the same as Biel-tan despite getting a very powerful -1 to hit.
Or how about Ynnarri somehow being the same points as base Eldar/Dark Eldar. Their refusal to change the points for individual factions lead first to the destruction of a bunch of units by points nerfs for being in a different army and then destroyed the different army when it wasn't enough.

Space Marines just make it more apparent because Dark Angels don't get a different chapter trait, 1 WL trait and 1 relic but an entire codex worth of different gak.

Rules should not be free.
Not Inner Circle, not Super doctrines, not your custom doctrines and not every other armies sub-faction rule.

 Ordana wrote:

 Saturmorn Carvilli wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
How should it be the same price as a standard terminator?

It should be the same price as standard Terminators for the same reason my chapter's Intercessors should be the same price as standard Intercessors or my Rusted Claw Atalan Jackals should be the same price as standard Jackals.

Or, and this may shock you. Faction buffs should not be free, at all.

GW should have learned this from the disaster that was 7th. Free rules as bad and lead to massive inbalance.
Its effects are limited for most Xenos because you get 1 small rule, but even there we saw it with Alaitoc Eldar costing the same as Biel-tan despite getting a very powerful -1 to hit.
Or how about Ynnarri somehow being the same points as base Eldar/Dark Eldar. Their refusal to change the points for individual factions lead first to the destruction of a bunch of units by points nerfs for being in a different army and then destroyed the different army when it wasn't enough.

Space Marines just make it more apparent because Dark Angels don't get a different chapter trait, 1 WL trait and 1 relic but an entire codex worth of different gak.

Rules should not be free.
Not Inner Circle, not Super doctrines, not your custom doctrines and not every other armies sub-faction rule.

THIS. SO . MUCH.

And gw has rules writers / had rules writers that know this. Infact they even knew that warlord traits with vast effects should have a pts cost.

There's still and was still 0 reason as to why a CSM should cost the same for AL and WB...

And as of now have seen not one fix to that. (even though one could easily state AL detachment +2 pts / model infantry + x per tank etc)
but no, nothing happened.

 Ordana wrote:


Rules should not be free.
Not Inner Circle, not Super doctrines, not your custom doctrines and not every other armies sub-faction rule.

But they are not free. You are locked in to a specific chapter tactic, specific psychic powers. You can't just take some TWC in to your DA army, because then you lose all the army specific rules.

Someone playing a different marine army, may have access to other stuff DA players do not have access to. Like special characters, faction specific relics and warlord traits etc.

GW finally made a Space Marine that made other Space Marine players attack Space Marine players. I don't know if I should be impressed or surprised.

To be fair everything should be costed even if GW doesn't want to. Relics, Warlord Traits, psychic powers, and so on should all have explicit points assigned to them as they are not all created equal. Only exception maybe being Smite, as it is universally available to Psykers, could be marked as "0 points".

The thing is baking modularity into the base cost of a unit just rarely gives you the required granularity for balance one needs.

That would require some mighty big changes to all those rules though. Because if you have an army where psychic powers have to do the job, of heavy weapons, special rules, chapter mechanics for other marines and movment for limited transport options, it would be rather hard to give those psychic powers a relative point cost. Also they would have to rewrite the cost of all units with such powers, because they are assumed to have the cost build in tot he units own cost. It would take multiple editions and codexs for GW to even start getting things right that way. Meaning we would be looking at 10+ years of waiting for stuff to be fixed. And this is assuming the next edition won't change the designed paradigmas by a 180.

Karol wrote:

 Ordana wrote:


Rules should not be free.
Not Inner Circle, not Super doctrines, not your custom doctrines and not every other armies sub-faction rule.

But they are not free. You are locked in to a specific chapter tactic, specific psychic powers. You can't just take some TWC in to your DA army, because then you lose all the army specific rules.

Someone playing a different marine army, may have access to other stuff DA players do not have access to. Like special characters, faction specific relics and warlord traits etc.

Are you with a strait face going to try and say that Dark Angels and Imperial fists are equal in what they should pay for a Terminator? or even as an army as a whole are "equal"?
Please, don't be ridiculous.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Karol wrote:
That would require some mighty big changes to all those rules though. Because if you have an army where psychic powers have to do the job, of heavy weapons, special rules, chapter mechanics for other marines and movment for limited transport options, it would be rather hard to give those psychic powers a relative point cost. Also they would have to rewrite the cost of all units with such powers, because they are assumed to have the cost build in tot he units own cost. It would take multiple editions and codexs for GW to even start getting things right that way. Meaning we would be looking at 10+ years of waiting for stuff to be fixed. And this is assuming the next edition won't change the designed paradigmas by a 180.

"GW won't be able to get it right" is not much of a defence when they can't get it right now either.

They are making the same mistake they made in 7th, piling free rules onto stuff until it breaks.

I don't think it's 'Iron Hands 2' in the sense that the original Iron Hands problems aren't really present here - there's none of the OG 'It's my shooting phase say goodbye to your army' or the later-form 'here is my absolutely indestructible high-quality shooting platform in an army that's a real pain the score against'. I think those problems were enabled by IH being over-endowed with rules and also with the way missions played in 8th edition.

It's definitely possible that new DA has too much good stuff all together, but this time it seems like it will stem from combinations of units that are a bit too powerful individually - resulting in an overbearing list overall - rather than a single hugely powerful gambit like the old Leviathan.

That said, if you stripped the Inner Circle rule from the Deathwing and changed nothing else, they wouldn't see play. The basic terminator statline just doesn't cut it these days.

 Drachii wrote:
That said, if you stripped the Inner Circle rule from the Deathwing and changed nothing else, they wouldn't see play. The basic terminator statline just doesn't cut it these days.

I wouldn't say that. Terminators with 3 wounds are in a good spot at the current price, imho. But just like IH have been reigned in shortly after release, the same can happen with DA. Seeing that GW pays a higher attention to tournaments in this edition, I think it is likely they would react, if a problem occurs.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
How exactly do dark angels terms just get free 4+ max to wound...but no points increase? Yeah no...

Silly me over here trying to play with tactical terms in my ultras just cause I like them. DA terms will always be better (Significantly). It is just dumb. A space marine terminator is a space marine terminator any minor difference wouldn't even show up in a game where the difference between a human who can lift 300 lbs and a space marine that can lift a car is 1 point of strength.

It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.

Terminators don't even synergize with UM in any good way and I doubt you want to take 3 units of them. DA have some potential list building challenges that will be interesting to see how they take shape.

Xeno does have a point. A Deathwing terminator with a stormbolter and power fist is 38 PPM, while a standard terminator available to any other chapter with a stormbolter and power fist is.....38 PPM. Two models, with the exact same BS, WS, attacks, and wounds, and with the exact same armaments, but one is T4, and the other "Toughness Infinity". How can anyone justify both being the same price?

How can you justify deathskull scrapjet being same cost as goff scrapjet?

Life of gw games. The moment chapter/regiment/dynasty bonuses came this was inevitable conclusion

Not Online!!! wrote:
don't give em ideas addnid...
don't give em ideas.

The hour of 35 point per model Blade Guard Veterans with hoods is nigh, there is nothing we can do about it I'm afraid.

Transhuman always on, 1+ 4+++, 3 wounds. Obsec. For 35 points. Also, tons of buffs can be applied freely. Nothing to worry. Absolutely nothing. They would be a steal at 42 points, but hey.

TBH I believe people needs to calm down a little.

Many changes in the new dark angel codex are actual nerfs for old rules. Old rules that nobody used because they where bad (Like the new -1 damage standard... the old version was MUCH better and still, it wasn't used. I know it, I have been playing heavy deathwing DA for all of 8th and much of 9th)


Lets put the example of Bladeguard Veterans in Dark Angels, or heck, Terminators. "They have transhuman permanently, thats unfair with all other chapters!"

Is it? What other bonus do they receive for being Dark Angels? +1 to hit in meele if they are charged or they charged and survived two full meele phases? What kind of bonus receives a Dark Angel assault terminator or deathwing knight for being dark angel? Permanent transhuman. Ok, thats a good bonus.

What those units receive for being Imperial Fists or Ravenguard? Hmm... TBH, quite bad bonuses that don't make them that much better, yeah, maybe they should1 be cheaper there...

but wait... What those units receive in White Scars armies or Blood Angels armies in contrast with permanente transhuman? Advance and charge, retreat and charge and +1 Damage from turn 3 onwards? +1" to advance and charge rolls and +1 to wound? Wow, those are good buffs that sinergy with those units! What kind of price increases should they receive? Oh wait... they haven't received no price increase in all this time and nobody claimed for it.


The fact that subfaction rules work better for some units over others has been a constant from the beginning of 8th. Deathwing terminators have received literally no bonus compared with most other terminators. Now they have two, obsec and permanent transhuman. Thats good! Is soo good that people need to lose their minds? I don't think so. And when results start coming, you'll see the same.

The amount of hiperbolic fearmongering with each new release is just absurd. And then months pases and most stuff wasn't that bad.

I'm surprised GW went this far with Dark Angels since they've been screwed over so many times in the rules department. The inner circle rule has been gak for years. Ignore morale and do better vs Fallen...awesome, thanks! So I'm glad they now are terrifying opponents (a real Salt mine). I played them a few weeks ago with this rule and finally, terminators felt like they should...walking tanks. I immediately turned to the UM player in our group and said "I love this rule, but I feel all terminators should have it".
So that's my gripe, it should apply to all TDA, and DA can still be snowflakey by having it on their characters too.
Bladeguard are less important as I suspect if you've invested in them anyway, you're dropping a CP for transhuman when needed.
But, the masses will moan and DA will get nerfed and being Deathwing will mean absolutely nothing again. Dark Angels are the 1st Legion, Deathwing are the 1st company, and in the immortal words of Ricky Bobby "If you ain't first, you're last"

 Ordana wrote:
Or, and this may shock you. Faction buffs should not be free, at all.

Not shocking at all. Just shuffling the deck chairs around at best and even more ways to over tune army lists further separating balance at worst. All while risking creating a game more unbalanced by making it more difficult to balance. Putting points to subfaction rules would largely change a 2000pt game to 2000 minus whatever the additional rules points cost with the added possibility of a race to the bottom/creating armies that are further from their lore.

Example: Rusted Claw Atalan Bikers cost an additional 5pts per model. That makes Atalan Bikers not worth the cost to take, so a player creates a Rusted Claw army that actually contains no bikers but keeps Rusted Claw and take cheaper Abberants compared to Twisted Helix to avoid 10pt surcharge per model there. Congrats, you just created a system where player are incentivized to not take the signature units of those subfactions in race to avoid paying those points. Possibly creating a worst issue of haves and have-nots between subfactions where some subfactions can avoid paying for special rules and others can't.

Conversely, you have Rusted Claw Atalan Bikers cost only 1pt more per model. So at most that adds 30 points to an army list. Let's say the AP ignore is 5pts per 500pts. Basically every army list is going to have some kind of surcharge like this, so everyone is playing something like a 1950pt game more or less. Which granted, MIGHT move the game towards being more balanced but likely barely noticeable since we are talking about something like a change 1-5% drop in the spending power of what points buys an army and a functional difference of like 1-3% between subfactions. And again, that's assume the subfactions are pointed correctly in the first place. They could very easily be (and likely would be) pointed incorrectly further inbalancing the game. Fortunately, in a barely perceivable way.

So you have introduced more complication which in turn can lead to less balance very easily and even less lore friendly armies to create this dial if used incorrectly. Which given GW's track record is most likely to happen. You would probably be better off dropping subfaction rules (which your gaming group is more than free to do at anytime) than attempt to further busy the points balancing system that would more likely be misused than applied for its intended effect which could also be very minimal in its impact.

Cybtroll wrote:Uhmn, no.

They had ObSec for eons, none was playing them.
They were immune to Morale, none was playing them.
They can deep Strike at 6", none was playing them.
But you know what they have instead? They were costed differently (I think +5 and then +3 points or something like that).

Also, they don't have anything that you couldn't give to your standard Terminator by stratagems when needed (and if you factors Deep Strike and a 5 turn game, it really isn't so useful... Also because the better way to kill Termy is plinking wounds off with small firearms).

They do a single job, sitting on one objective, and to do that you need to play carefully. But yeah once there they are a nightmare to shift. But Necron can steal an objective off their nose with Warriors, and their ObSec can't compete with a true horde due to small number.

Just to make an example, Fall Back + Shoot or Fall Back + Charge are both better on Terminators that a permanent Transhuman.


But what I love is the fact that they are driving crazy the mathammer crowd

True, they can't beat horde infantry with obsec. Good thing Dark Angels don't have a psychic power that removes that horde unit of infantry's own obsec isn't it? Oh, wait.

tneva82 wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
How exactly do dark angels terms just get free 4+ max to wound...but no points increase? Yeah no...

Silly me over here trying to play with tactical terms in my ultras just cause I like them. DA terms will always be better (Significantly). It is just dumb. A space marine terminator is a space marine terminator any minor difference wouldn't even show up in a game where the difference between a human who can lift 300 lbs and a space marine that can lift a car is 1 point of strength.

It is utterly idiotic...like 8.5 ironhands idiotic to include this rule. I can assure you within 1 month it will be nerfed too...to only be DA characters...which is fine for a free rule that no other marines get...

Just cant stand these snow flake marines anymore.

Terminators don't even synergize with UM in any good way and I doubt you want to take 3 units of them. DA have some potential list building challenges that will be interesting to see how they take shape.

Xeno does have a point. A Deathwing terminator with a stormbolter and power fist is 38 PPM, while a standard terminator available to any other chapter with a stormbolter and power fist is.....38 PPM. Two models, with the exact same BS, WS, attacks, and wounds, and with the exact same armaments, but one is T4, and the other "Toughness Infinity". How can anyone justify both being the same price?

How can you justify deathskull scrapjet being same cost as goff scrapjet?

Life of gw games. The moment chapter/regiment/dynasty bonuses came this was inevitable conclusion

The difference being that unlike the Srapjet, Deathwing Terminators are a unique unit only available to Dark Angels, and increasing their price to represent their superiority compared to standard Terminators would only affect Dark Angels. This has nothing to do with faction rules. Inner Circle is an ability Deathwing Terminators get without faction rules, for the exact same price as terminators without it.

addnid wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
don't give em ideas addnid...
don't give em ideas.

The hour of 35 point per model Blade Guard Veterans with hoods is nigh, there is nothing we can do about it I'm afraid.

Transhuman always on, 1+ 4+++, 3 wounds. Obsec. For 35 points. Also, tons of buffs can be applied freely. Nothing to worry. Absolutely nothing. They would be a steal at 42 points, but hey.

Blade Guard don't gain obsec in Deathwing detachments. It's Deathwing Terminators, Terminators, and Relic Terminators.