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Was that Drukhari/Sister combo box ever actually released?

 Hellebore wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Hellebore wrote:

Definitely the Necron update set a certain expectation that other xenos factions should expect and it will be a shame it we don't see it transfer across all of them.

The dark eldar definitely need more kits to cover lost units. They still have plenty of failcast units and HQ models that should be plastic.


It would be nice to see GW visibly put even this small commitment to their product lines out and not just for marines.

Necrons got big　release as it was 1 of the 2 armies in start set. Those get big release. Most of codexes in　8e came with just codex and maybe　token model. De are hardly being singled out.

Expecting necron release be norm is ignoring facts. That was　starter　set bonus. Last time　i checked new starter set isn't around the corner

What you are saying is that Craftworlds, Harlequins and Tau will never EVER get a release that big, because GW will never put them in a starter box (I'm not counting Kill team starters as 40k starters). DE might be lucky enough to be the eeevilll faction fighting marines in the next one (as they were for 3rd ed), but craftworlds, Harlies and Tau are all too 'good' to be in a box against marines.

Uh... Wake the Dead? Death Masque? CWE and Harlequins have absolutely been in boxes versus Marines before, there's no reason they couldn't feature in a full starter set for an edition.

 Burnage wrote:

Uh... Wake the Dead? Death Masque? CWE and Harlequins have absolutely been in boxes versus Marines before, there's no reason they couldn't feature in a full starter set for an edition.

Between the two of them, don't those two boxes have one single new Eldar sculpt in them? Hardly a ringing endorsement of GW's willingness to expand the Eldar ranges via a starter box.

Also I remember part of the fuss about Wake the dead being it was barely any better value than just 2 start collecting boxes.
The big selling point was the new models that were exclusive to the boxset. Ie fairly poor value compaired to just you know like indomitous or the 8th edition starter set.

 Ketara wrote:
Was that Drukhari/Sister combo box ever actually released?

It hasn't been released yet, though I wouldn't be surprised to see it released alongside - or at worst, shortly after - the DE codex.

Which will, of course, mean we see certain DE players complaining even more about Lilith3, as she is unlikely to be available individually when the book drops.

 Argive wrote:

a_typical_hero wrote:
I think you have to wait for special rules to get the hype started.

Marines don't have exciting stats, either.

Minimum 2W troops....
3W T5 basic troops
ATV?
Sword mateys ?
100+ data sheets to pick from

*Looks at kabalite leaked stat as comparison*
LOLS and walks off..

1. As was possible since 8th edition. Exciting? For those who like their Firstborn armies and assumed GW would put them into Legends. Quite a different situation to Dark Eldar.
2. S4 T5 W3 A2 Sv3+. Exciting?
3. A Primaris Attack Bike with twice the wounds and attacks for twice the price of an Attack Bike. Exciting?
4. S4 T4 W3 A3 Sv3+. Exciting?
5. 100+ data sheets were not previewed, so there is nothing to get excited about.

I'll throw another one in:
S3 T3 W1 A4 Sv6+
Exciting statline, right? Belongs to one of the, if not the strongest armies right now and is their only Troupe choice.

But it can get better:
M6" S3 T3 W1 A2 Sv7+
Statline of one of the hardest hitting melee units right now.

A statline alone is nothing to get excited about.


Mind giving me a realistic example statline for Kabalites that would excite you?

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 Burnage wrote:

Uh... Wake the Dead? Death Masque? CWE and Harlequins have absolutely been in boxes versus Marines before, there's no reason they couldn't feature in a full starter set for an edition.

Between the two of them, don't those two boxes have one single new Eldar sculpt in them? Hardly a ringing endorsement of GW's willingness to expand the Eldar ranges via a starter box.

I honestly think that Craftworlds are suffering from the original plan with the Ynnari and all that was scrapped when Kirby left. I remember reading that a large line update are 2-3 years(if not more) in the making so if they scrapped some of the original plans it might have taken backseat for the Necrons and Primaris and other larger releases(many in AoS).

We also see that when they make a line revamp the new line gets their months in the sun(Necrons are still being released) if not longer(Primaris). Add on top of that that GW is also supporting several product lines with AoS(that is doing aelf and Slaanesh releases right now), as well as Underworlds, AT, Necromunda, BB, and more.

The thing is, if we see a proper update to Aeldari(most specifically CW) we should expect some sunsetting units and/or loadout changes. GW seems more keen on selling things that are new or provide alternatives to existing units so us who own gazillion of the resin/metal models feel compelled to buy more. We've seen it now with Primaris(entirely new range of models, an army in of itself), Necrons(new options to Warriors and mostly new units), and Sisters of Battle.

I just wish they'd use some of the smaller release windows to release plastic grotesques. Sadly I think the conversion options available are limiting their interest in making this unit in plastic.

 alextroy wrote:
Model support and codex quality are two different things. You can easily have one without the other.

It's possible, sure, but is it likely?

Again, Dark Eldar has lost (just off the top of my head):
Skyboard Archons
Jetbike Archons
Skyboard Haemonculi
Jetbike Haemonculi
Dracons
Haemonculus Ancients
The Decapitator
The Duke
Baron Sathonyx
Lady Malys
Vect
Trueborn (Legends)
Bloodbrides (Legends)

And in spite of that, it's been over 10 years now since DE were last given a model for a new unit (not just a replacement sculpt).

So when yet another release offers us zero new models (just a single replacement sculpt for an existing character), you'll forgive me if struggle to believe that they have any real interest or commitment towards Dark Eldar as a faction. And I fully expect this apathy to manifest itself in the upcoming codex.

 Ketara wrote:
Was that Drukhari/Sister combo box ever actually released?

Seeing it was only previewed...no. It's still to come. It wouldn't have been here now even without corona delay.

From a player perspective we, or me at least, are looking for a balanced game.

We are not looking for over powered things. Or stong codexes. Adequate codexes. If all the codexes are adequate you are close to some game balance. If you get a strong codex later codexes need to be stronger to keep up and you get a power creep. A powerreep in a game like warhammer means customers are stuck with bad units not worth much.

I just hope that the DE codex is adequate. Preferably somewhere around the powerlevel of the current tyranid codex, because that one is very good for gameplay.

It'd be also nice if it wasn't horde army codex, but since GW doesn't want to make other races comparable to marines, that's what it's going to be. You either have the wounds and saves to soak damage or the bodies to soak it.

Considering that de are like the third or fourth worst performing faction, and nids arent doing much better while plsying with mostly index 8th statlines im hoping we see somethung better than that.

Codex nids is miserably boring and lazy. It failed to establish any kind of distinct roles for the various big monsters and had all the dull early 8th crutches of leaning heavily on mortal wounds, double fight strats, etc

 Niiai wrote:
From a player perspective we, or me at least, are looking for a balanced game.

We are not looking for over powered things. Or stong codexes. Adequate codexes. If all the codexes are adequate you are close to some game balance. If you get a strong codex later codexes need to be stronger to keep up and you get a power creep. A powerreep in a game like warhammer means customers are stuck with bad units not worth much.

I just hope that the DE codex is adequate. Preferably somewhere around the powerlevel of the current tyranid codex, because that one is very good for gameplay.

Unfortunately that doesn't show in balance sheets of GW. Opposite does though.

Cronch wrote:
It'd be also nice if it wasn't horde army codex, but since GW doesn't want to make other races comparable to marines, that's what it's going to be. You either have the wounds and saves to soak damage or the bodies to soak it.

I doubt that dog gon hunt unfortunately. Part of the way GW tries to make the lower-selling armies work is by forcing them to buy more minis to make a full army.

...which of course drives down the playerbase, because if you can get 1000pts of marines for 250$ or 300pts of something else for 250$ guess which you're likely to go for...

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 Burnage wrote:

Uh... Wake the Dead? Death Masque? CWE and Harlequins have absolutely been in boxes versus Marines before, there's no reason they couldn't feature in a full starter set for an edition.

Between the two of them, don't those two boxes have one single new Eldar sculpt in them? Hardly a ringing endorsement of GW's willingness to expand the Eldar ranges via a starter box.

I honestly think that Craftworlds are suffering from the original plan with the Ynnari and all that was scrapped when Kirby left. I remember reading that a large line update are 2-3 years(if not more) in the making so if they scrapped some of the original plans it might have taken backseat for the Necrons and Primaris and other larger releases(many in AoS).

On average the studio works about 5 years in advance, not 2-3. I very much doubt whatever plans that were in the works were scrapped, its just been a slow trickle of releases for Eldar so far.

chaos0xomega wrote:


On average the studio works about 5 years in advance, not 2-3.

I stand corrected. Even then the point stands that all the plans have been long in the making.

I think the 2-3 years comes from the SoB range which had one of the shorter dev time.

I have to admit, I expected both Eldar armies to end up joining together into the Ynnari a long time ago. That seemed to be where the lore was going, what with major figures like Lelith and Jain Zar both joining up in that little death cult. But then the story stopped moving again. It feels like someone at GW got cold feet.

 Eldarsif wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:


On average the studio works about 5 years in advance, not 2-3.

I stand corrected. Even then the point stands that all the plans have been long in the making.

I think the 2-3 years comes from the SoB range which had one of the shorter dev time.

5 years was purportedly pre-CAD modeling/design. 2-3 years is supposed to be 'the average' now, assuming they do not have to rework large chunks of the book.

The shortest development time so far was Knights when it first dropped, and that was supposedly because the model designers had mocked up the Warden kit and its variants in advance but they played it safe by releasing the two model variant box to start.

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 Burnage wrote:

Uh... Wake the Dead? Death Masque? CWE and Harlequins have absolutely been in boxes versus Marines before, there's no reason they couldn't feature in a full starter set for an edition.

Between the two of them, don't those two boxes have one single new Eldar sculpt in them? Hardly a ringing endorsement of GW's willingness to expand the Eldar ranges via a starter box.

I honestly think that Craftworlds are suffering from the original plan with the Ynnari and all that was scrapped when Kirby left. I remember reading that a large line update are 2-3 years(if not more) in the making so if they scrapped some of the original plans it might have taken backseat for the Necrons and Primaris and other larger releases(many in AoS).

On average the studio works about 5 years in advance, not 2-3. I very much doubt whatever plans that were in the works were scrapped, its just been a slow trickle of releases for Eldar so far.

5? quotes for that? That means they would already be working for 40k 11th edition. AOS design work started 2012 summer. 3 years before release. There's plenty of examples of moulds being ready for production year before release. Doubt it takes 4 years for design.

Yeah

Don't believe for a second that the development time is as long as 5 years

 streetsamurai wrote:
Yeah

Don't believe for a second that the development time is as long as 5 years

AdMech ornithopter sketches were dated back to the year the Skitarii codex was released...which was 2015.

"Development" includes a lot of things that are not simply "writing the book".

Which doesn't means much.

They have a lot of concepts that they never create miniature for.

Maybe in that case, they judged that it would be better, saleswise, to release other things before (like the eldar jetbikes, which were sitting in the warehouse for years allegedly). I,m not saying that it never happens, but I sincerly doubt the average development time of large releases is 5 years

Having a sketch doesn't mean something is in development. I mean, the new Titan for AT had a sketch from Jes decades ago. Does that mean that that model has been "in development" that entire time?

What's far more likely is that they have a specific budget/allotment of new frames that they can make, they do tons of design work, and pick which makes the most sense to do now, saving the rest for later if there is an opportunity to come back to it.

it was said in the past that it takes 4-5 years from 1st concept to producing enough stock for a world wide release

so for everything were concepts already exists it should be shorter
only needing to update exiting work, instead of creating something new will decrease the time as well

so something like the current Necron release would have startet 3-4 years ago

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 Burnage wrote:

Uh... Wake the Dead? Death Masque? CWE and Harlequins have absolutely been in boxes versus Marines before, there's no reason they couldn't feature in a full starter set for an edition.

Between the two of them, don't those two boxes have one single new Eldar sculpt in them? Hardly a ringing endorsement of GW's willingness to expand the Eldar ranges via a starter box.

I honestly think that Craftworlds are suffering from the original plan with the Ynnari and all that was scrapped when Kirby left.

Oh I don't doubt that. In fact I suspect its part of the problem with Dark Eldar too.
Ynnari initially looked like it was going to involve a massive range overhaul and reorganization, but the shift at the top as well as the reactions to squatting WFB factions for AoS gave them pause. Unfortunately it also seems to have left eldar in general in a state of abandonment. Which is unfortunate because they're still the factions most in need of updating.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Ketara wrote:
Was that Drukhari/Sister combo box ever actually released?

It hasn't been released yet, though I wouldn't be surprised to see it released alongside - or at worst, shortly after - the DE codex.

Which will, of course, mean we see certain DE players complaining even more about Lilith3, as she is unlikely to be available individually when the book drops.

I don't think that's much of a concern considering her re-sculpt impression on a large portion of the DE community

I know it's probably not realistic, but I am hoping there are at least a couple minor models out there they haven't shown us yet. Preferably something new.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
I have to admit, I expected both Eldar armies to end up joining together into the Ynnari a long time ago. That seemed to be where the lore was going, what with major figures like Lelith and Jain Zar both joining up in that little death cult. But then the story stopped moving again. It feels like someone at GW got cold feet.

I suspected it was only an instrument in order to reintroduce Bobby G and Cawl, and facilitate the updates to marines. Now, that pretty clearly appears to be the case.

Personally I dislike Ynnari on every level.

The models? Are strange mash ups of two similar but distinct designs, imagine a new marine faction that merged the look of chaos space marines and normal marines lol it just ends up looking like less busy chaos marines or slightly edgy goodies. And that avatar of Ynnead id such a fugly model, yikes. Swirly crap and rubble for days.

The rules? Are just a rip off of Drukhari. They such souls and gain power eh? Hmmm, where have I heard that one? Oh but they are OK with psychic powers lol. It basically is a faction where a designer looked at an eldar soup list in 6th/7th and decided to make it canon.

 cuda1179 wrote:
I know it's probably not realistic, but I am hoping there are at least a couple minor models out there they haven't shown us yet. Preferably something new.

Yeah, it would be pretty weird if there was no models besides a character in a battlebox!

tneva82 wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Agamemnon2 wrote:

 Burnage wrote:

Uh... Wake the Dead? Death Masque? CWE and Harlequins have absolutely been in boxes versus Marines before, there's no reason they couldn't feature in a full starter set for an edition.

Between the two of them, don't those two boxes have one single new Eldar sculpt in them? Hardly a ringing endorsement of GW's willingness to expand the Eldar ranges via a starter box.

I honestly think that Craftworlds are suffering from the original plan with the Ynnari and all that was scrapped when Kirby left. I remember reading that a large line update are 2-3 years(if not more) in the making so if they scrapped some of the original plans it might have taken backseat for the Necrons and Primaris and other larger releases(many in AoS).

On average the studio works about 5 years in advance, not 2-3. I very much doubt whatever plans that were in the works were scrapped, its just been a slow trickle of releases for Eldar so far.

5? quotes for that? That means they would already be working for 40k 11th edition. AOS design work started 2012 summer. 3 years before release. There's plenty of examples of moulds being ready for production year before release. Doubt it takes 4 years for design.

It is known. Its been mentioned at Warhammer Fest panels or whatever in years past that the design studio begins work on new products, and specifically new miniatures, 5 years in advance, there is a lot of 2D artwork, concept development, etc. that goes on on the front end well before the CAD work even starts - GWs artists and designers have said the studio has significantly more artwork for unreleased models, units, armies, and characters, etc. than what has actually been released to date by GW. All of that artwork is done up before anything ever goes to the sculptors and CAD artists to begin working on models.

The general production timeline from start of CAD to release of a finished miniature product is itself about a ~2-3 year pipeline (though a lot of it is idle time as the CAD work doesn't lead directly into production, that only happens as you approach the products release window), of which the CAD piece itself is only really about a 6-12 month long process (a lot of which is less design and more editing and mold engineering before they can proceed to cutting the tools, itself a timely process but a lot of it is also just waiting time in the production queue, etc.). Keep in mind the GW process is artwork -> miniatures -> fluff -> rules, the rules team doesn't really start working on the rules until the miniature designs are relatively finalized in CAD form, in large part because the rules policy is more or less "if its on the miniature then it needs to be represented in the rules somehow". Generally speaking, by the time the rules team starts working on things theres already been a couple years of work done on it beforehand, if it takes another ~3 years from when the rules team starts working it, then you're about 5 years out.

WIthin the context of Ynnari, their first appearance was in early 2017 and Blood of the Phoenix brought us "Ynnari" versions of a couple units in 2019. While its possible that some of the plans for Ynnari may have been changed, they have not been scrapped entirely, these things just take time.

As far as your AoS example is concerned, editions are a slightly different case as they are primarily a rules product rather than a miniatures product - but technically it started work even before Summer of 2012 - the Sigmarines were supposedly originally intended to release for WHFB and concept development for them started in ~2010 before they decided to recast the setting and rework them into the front and center product line. The first test molds for Sigmarines were cut in 2013, which means they were already a couple years deep into design work on them at that point.