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 Flipsiders wrote:
Almost every last comic under the DC brand either sets out to elicit either extremely strong positive emotions (awe, "coolness," sense of scale, et cetera) or extremely strong negative emotions (shock, outlandishly high stakes, cruel and depressing realism, et cetera). Basic comedy stories like most Deadpool stuff or low-to-the-ground stories with minimal stakes such as the archetypical Spider-Man comics/movies just don't work with DC's style. The DC universe is a place that at its best, is either brutally depressing and realistic, or, as is more often the case, wonderfully outlandish and committed to high stakes and memorable fights and setpieces over anything else.

I don't think this is true at all.

Court of Owls
Long Holloween.
Batman Year 1
All Star Superman
Red Son
Swamp Thing: Mark Millars run.
Under the Red Hood.
Killing Joke


Some of the best most memorable stories that come out of DC are lower stakes more personal stories. If anything, the PROBLEM with DC is that they keep going for this grandiose crap thats all spectacle and no substance.

Marvel is grounded personal problems.
DC is gods and monsters.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

 Flipsiders wrote:
Since a lot of people are talking about it, I actually rather liked the justification for why Darkseid hadn't invaded yet. It probably should have been explained more, but I think Steppenwolf's "no Lanterns, no Kryptonian" line sums up everything well enough, provided you're aware of what he probably means. From what he's saying here, it seems like until around the time of Man of Steel, the Green Lantern Corps (all Green Lanterns are space cops) had a guy keeping an eye on Earth and the surrounding planets. Something has evidently happened to him, but by that point, as gorgon mentioned, Steppenwolf was instead keeping away due to prior bad experiences with Kryptonians. Superman's death was the first time where both of those failsafes were out of the picture.

The scene with



Anyway, my family watched it and really liked it. My wife liked it SO much better that the theatrical cut. Usually with her, it's a matter of the characters in a given movie/show, and this version treated the characters much, much better overall.


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 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Marvel is grounded personal problems.
DC is gods and monsters.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

Right. There are times I like to read about Peter's latest drama with MJ, and times where I want to see the JL unload on the New Gods because I just can't read another story about Peter's latest drama with MJ.

Of course, we're also making gross generalizations, as there's plenty of grounded stuff with DC and plenty of cosmic stuff with Marvel.

Something pointed out to me, it’s a Justice League movie where Superman never speaks to Wonder Woman, Flash, Cyborg, or Aquaman. Flash’s dad has more lines of dialogue than Superman. In the climatic fight scene Superman says only two words.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Marvel is grounded personal problems.
DC is gods and monsters.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

The best DC comics are the ones that deal with the grounded personal problems of gods and monsters.

Also, on the intended GL scene:



I still haven't had time to really sit and watch the rest of this. Got through parts 2-4 though. I think the pacing improves, though there's a LOT that could easily be cut. I suspect some of it was actually left in to make the parts closer to a consistent 30 minute runtime. I think a lot of the focus on plot inconsistencies comes down to how long some of the exposition is. The movie regularly likes to explain things in painstaking detail that leave you a lot of time to focus on the detail and where it doesn't quite line up. Losing track of the only place you were ever defeated seems... questionable, mostly because they talk about it so much. It probably would help if the GL wasn't a total chump in the fight, since the lack of one is somehow a big deal? The bulk of this section focuses on introducing the new characters and building towards a mid-script failure.

I'm not sure what I think of Cyborg. His dad's podcast is absolutely bizarre. That whole sequence is weird power with no concern for consequence and clashes horribly with our introduction to Victor as a character. Restoring most of this goes a long way towards making him work but he just has weird reactions to every event. It's not unbelievable and yet, it's not really interesting either. Barry being more of a Wally take on the Flash feels like it might come together later, but his self contained episode doesn't quite sell the character. Aquaman is a little odd just because we've already seen the movie they were building. The air bubble thing really doesn't work and I'm glad they dropped it. Of the 3, Barry probably gets the best treatment in two relatively focused scenes that flesh out his character and direction for future films. They're very indulgent with the pocket dog and creepy doll caress, but a little snappier editing and they'd be about perfect.

The actual Act 2 battle is alright. I think the weirdest thing about it is that its trying to sell this "there's no one to unite/lead them" but the cast is mostly amiable. Like, Barry and Victor are totally cool following orders. Batman doesn't seem to be played up as the usual "I work alone" style here and Diana's general existence as a commander is just glossed over to make this happen. Really feel the lack of Hal in this sequence, who at least shifts more to a "too many cooks in the kitchen" problem. As is, the failing to work as a team thing comes across as cliche and hamfisted where it really needed to sell us on Superman's necessity. This is probably the ONE point where I feel the most BvS from the film. I get what they're trying to say, I can piece together all the ideas used to build the script, but it keeps over or under stating everything to the point where it only works when I explain it back to myself afterwards, rather than being something I connect with in the moment.

Also, favorite dialog exchange so far:

"I'll die before I tell you"
"You'll die if you don't"

So, you agree then? Is that what you're saying? This felt like one of those moments in a restaurant where the waitress says "enjoy your meal" and someone responds with "you too" rather than responding to the words actually spoken.

On the fighting bits...

It may be down to my tuning out, but I don’t recall anyone trying to gang up on Steppenwolf during the first scrap. Rather they all take their turn, and figure “nope, he’s too strong”, hence they decide to dabble in necromancy.

And why didn’t we see Barry light speed punch him? The power field thing he generates seems to protect him from impact after all.

Did I miss something there?

And as ever, where the hell is Wonder Woman standing to always drop in from the top of the screen. Does she carry an invisible diving board with her, because she does it an awful, awful lot.

Well in theory if you go with ‘84 she knows how to fly by this point.

 Lance845 wrote:

 Flipsiders wrote:
Almost every last comic under the DC brand either sets out to elicit either extremely strong positive emotions (awe, "coolness," sense of scale, et cetera) or extremely strong negative emotions (shock, outlandishly high stakes, cruel and depressing realism, et cetera). Basic comedy stories like most Deadpool stuff or low-to-the-ground stories with minimal stakes such as the archetypical Spider-Man comics/movies just don't work with DC's style. The DC universe is a place that at its best, is either brutally depressing and realistic, or, as is more often the case, wonderfully outlandish and committed to high stakes and memorable fights and setpieces over anything else.

I don't think this is true at all.

Court of Owls
Long Holloween.
Batman Year 1
All Star Superman
Red Son
Swamp Thing: Mark Millars run.
Under the Red Hood.
Killing Joke


Some of the best most memorable stories that come out of DC are lower stakes more personal stories. If anything, the PROBLEM with DC is that they keep going for this grandiose crap thats all spectacle and no substance.

I would say most of the comics you mentioned fall squarely under "cruel and depressing realism." Just because a comic has no aliens or worlds being destroyed doesn't mean it's low-stakes or doesn't rely on shocking the reader. Take the opening of The Killing Joke, for instance, or just about everything which happens in the Court of Owls (I'm thinking of the scene in which Batman gets in a robot suit and starts beating up dozens of ninjas). None of it involves Darkseid or such, sure, but it's all a lot more emotionally loaded than "these six guys are sick of Spider-Man, so they try beating him up as a group one time before immediately disbanding for a couple years."

 Flipsiders wrote:

 Lance845 wrote:

 Flipsiders wrote:
Almost every last comic under the DC brand either sets out to elicit either extremely strong positive emotions (awe, "coolness," sense of scale, et cetera) or extremely strong negative emotions (shock, outlandishly high stakes, cruel and depressing realism, et cetera). Basic comedy stories like most Deadpool stuff or low-to-the-ground stories with minimal stakes such as the archetypical Spider-Man comics/movies just don't work with DC's style. The DC universe is a place that at its best, is either brutally depressing and realistic, or, as is more often the case, wonderfully outlandish and committed to high stakes and memorable fights and setpieces over anything else.

I don't think this is true at all.

Court of Owls
Long Holloween.
Batman Year 1
All Star Superman
Red Son
Swamp Thing: Mark Millars run.
Under the Red Hood.
Killing Joke


Some of the best most memorable stories that come out of DC are lower stakes more personal stories. If anything, the PROBLEM with DC is that they keep going for this grandiose crap thats all spectacle and no substance.

I would say most of the comics you mentioned fall squarely under "cruel and depressing realism." Just because a comic has no aliens or worlds being destroyed doesn't mean it's low-stakes or doesn't rely on shocking the reader. Take the opening of The Killing Joke, for instance, or just about everything which happens in the Court of Owls (I'm thinking of the scene in which Batman gets in a robot suit and starts beating up dozens of ninjas). None of it involves Darkseid or such, sure, but it's all a lot more emotionally loaded than "these six guys are sick of Spider-Man, so they try beating him up as a group one time before immediately disbanding for a couple years."

What I was saying is those stories had personal stakes for the characters involved. The big grandiose gods and monsters things that DC does are not about the characters them selves so much as the setting. It's about aliens, and gak. It's about super heroes shooting lasers and punching space ships to pieces without much int he way of the individual characters arcs. Look at final crisis? Maybe superman has persona stakes? But mostly not because it's just a story to be like "Superman can do anything so he does". Under the Red hood is all about the characters involved and their personal stakes. It's not so much about realism. You mention the mech suit. It's about the focus being on the characters. A character driven story instead of a events driven one.

It's not like Marvel doesn't also have that issue, but they have been doing better while DC seems to be doing worse as a whole.

 LunarSol wrote:
Also, on the intended GL scene:

Spoiler:

It was supposed to be John Stewart at the end, not Hal/Ryan Reynolds.

Perhaps both, it appears. Per THR:

Finished it last night. Overall, not bad. I'm not sure if its the best of the trilogy(?) of DCEU Snyder films, but its certainly better than BvS. It might be better than MoS? Probably not going to worry about that too much.

So, the last two parts. Superman comes back, then the big fight. More content that was MOSTLY in the original, but the added weight of character gives them meaning the original lacked. The fight with Superman here somehow felt more contrived than the original, though I love the creative displays of power, particularly Superman moving in near real time at Flash speed. Ultimately though this whole chunk highlights how awful these movies treat Lois. Some of the MoS callbacks are nice, but were never given a reason to think Clark is not going to show up and the stalling feels really, really forced.

So, the final battle. In some ways, I miss the red sky. It's a DC thing and while the darkness here works okay, there's parts where it obscures some great choreography. The Avengers Assemble shot feels super weird and forced given people railed against it in Age of Ultron but whatever. The fight is mostly great. I feel like the new cut goes out of its way to limit Jason Momoa's charisma but the team comes together well and its overall a lot of the same enjoyable stuff with better stakes propping it up.

Flash's final run is an absolutely stellar piece of visual design, but Erza Miller kind of ruins it for me. The costume looks really ill fitting and he talks way way too much, over explaining what the visuals sell on their own beautifully. The other oddity here is there's something of a stuttered climax to the fight, with 2-3 moments of failure that get resolved in ways that aren't as satisfying as I'd like. Superman taking the axe is great, but between the lack of color in the costume and the general CGI nature of the shot, it doesn't really look like it made contact and kind of hovers weightlessly off his chest. The Flash healing also really needed to be set up better, particularly since the scene sells it more as a mortal wound. The sequence keeps getting distracted from the literal "race against time" that the Mother Box presents. Still, the battle as a whole is quite well done and the initial barrage of epilogue's for the characters sells the future of the universe, particularly Flash and Cyborg solo films, quite well.

The "post credit" scenes on the other hand are largely an immediate reminder of all the ill will the DCEU had generated. Lex/Slade is okay, but everything with the Knightmare is awful. Leto and Affleck bounce off each other like wet rags and all the dialog drips of high school melodrama. It's really weird. The actual film, left me feeling very optimistic about the whole thing, but by the end of that final half hour I was back in my BvS mindset.

So yeah, that's a thing that happened. It's not bad. There's probably a far far better 3 hour cut like a film instead of a mini series, but it mostly works. The slow start and miserable post credits are probably my main gripes, as the core film that's not THAT different from the Whedon version is greatly improved with the time given to establishing shots and character build up. The cast is a little flat, kind of being painted in the same brush like you find in a Bendis comic rather than having their own voice. Momoa seems to be the big victim of this, seemingly constantly being told to shut up and pout more. It's worth experiencing on the whole though. I'm not sure I'd want anything more out of it, but it's solid enough to have been worth the time.

About Mamoa, I think the one scene thats gone that really worked and would have been a good addition, was WW secretly using the lasso on Aquaman to get him to open up. I think that one (and only one) scene that apparently was one of JW's is very fitting for both characters.

That was also one of my favorite scenes from the original JL movie.... the rest I don't even remember.

Thought it was pretty good until the last half hour. The build up was more natural feeling and cohesive than the original but the final battle was even more of an underwhelming anticlimax

I can't agree regarding the lasso scene. I thought it was cornball and uncomfortable (more Diana leering from Whedon) and brought the character too far 'down'. It's handled more subtly in this one through his conversations with Barry and Diana. You see that he has a heart without it going completely cheesy.

So regarding the black suit, here's Snyder's words from his Esquire interview:

ESQ: Except for when they do. True. What's the story behind Superman's black suit?

Snyder: It comes from Death of Superman of course. But I'm also into this Robert Bly book The Red, White, and Black. The white of naivety, the red of anger, and the black of humanity. I just felt like the black suit is really symbolic of that as well. But also, frankly, I flew him straight up to the sun to charge him up. I like the black suit as a practical thing of there needing to be a way for Superman to charge up quickly and be stronger than he was. So it works in a theoretical and symbolic way.

Also, it sounds like the studio wouldn't let him shoot the scene with the GL(s). I'll make a guess that it's because of the upcoming GL series for HBO Max...they want to introduce *their* GLs on their schedule. Understandable. But still...in a way it's a little weird, right? Because they're supposedly embracing the multiverse approach...except where they don't want to embrace it, I guess.

I mean, clearly they want to move/evolve past the Snyderverse -- also understandable -- and yet he cast and introduced many of the characters they're moving forward with. His fingerprints are still all over WW, Aquaman, Flash...even Shazam in the mildest of ways. Affleck is going to be Batman one last time in Flashpoint, and Fisher would have been Cyborg again in that movie but for his blowout with the studio. Ayer introduced Robbie as Harley Quinn in his Snyderverse film. So they aren't burying the Snyderverse, nor will they be restoring it. #CherryPickTheSnyderverse

And in that environment, Henry Cavill can't get a new fething Superman gig. What the @#$% did he do to the WB execs?

 gorgon wrote:

And in that environment, Henry Cavill can't get a new fething Superman gig. What the @#$% did he do to the WB execs?

Blew them off for a WoW raid?

Again, I don't dislike the Black suit outright and I totally get the inclusion. I just really noticed how much the blue would have balanced things out in the final scenes, particularly when he's standing by Bruce.

Ultimately, I think Superman will struggle as long as WB has the mindset that they need to find the right way to change him to "fix" him rather than finding the right story for the character as is. At this point Cavil is tied to a failed experiment and they need a new guy for the next one.

Cynista wrote:
Thought it was pretty good until the last half hour. The build up was more natural feeling and cohesive than the original but the final battle was even more of an underwhelming anticlimax

At 2x times the length, the build-up better be improved!

I dunno if it’s a self imposed perception filter, but it doesn’t seem to have really wowed anyone.

Most of the comments seem to be “it’s better than the theatrical cut, but”.

Me? I don’t exactly regret watching it. But at four hours long, and what is consider to be a lot of faffing around in that extra time, I won’t be watching it again.

The only real bum note for me was the pointless Jared Leto. I mean the scene itself is pretty pointless - setting up The Sequel That Will Never Be*. But Jared Leto himself. He was crap in Suicide Squad, roundly ridiculed, but hey kids, here’s more. It’s like inserting a Jar Jar scene into the original trilogy of Star Wars. Perhaps as a cut away for ten minutes of “comedy” after the medal ceremony.

The rest was....slightly worse than meh, I think. I don’t actively hate it, nor particularly dislike it. But I’m not exactly neutral on it.

*Unless this is stupid interference trying to create Deadpoolesque hype. If it is, I really don’t think it worked. Like, at all. For me it comes across more as “and having sat through that, now be thankful you didn’t sit through four hours of this drivel”.

 LunarSol wrote:
Ultimately, I think Superman will struggle as long as WB has the mindset that they need to find the right way to change him to "fix" him rather than finding the right story for the character as is.

They're doing it right on the CW with their new Superman show. Clark's challenges aren't physical, they're interpersonal. They're about how a god-like being deals with the more down-to-Earth issues like raising two teenage sons and trying to support his wife, all while his father in law is berating him for shirking his responsibilities for the world.

 LunarSol wrote:
At this point Cavil is tied to a failed experiment and they need a new guy for the next one.

Michael B. Jordan, it seems. Gotta get them woke points!

I dunno. I’d say that a 33-point increase in the RT critics score and a 25% increase in its audience score means that it’s being received better than “slightly less bad”. It *seems* like it’s been pretty successful for HBO Max, but only they know the sub numbers. I don’t think anyone is saying it’s Oscar-worthy, but what comic book movie is?

IMO, it is quite a bit more interesting than most, due to the drama surrounding it and because it’s an auteur work from a distinctive and often divisive director. Debating the precise level of the audience reception seems like the least interesting aspect to discuss. I mean, the thing is a total dead end...there will be no sequels. But it’s a free message board I guess.


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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:
Ultimately, I think Superman will struggle as long as WB has the mindset that they need to find the right way to change him to "fix" him rather than finding the right story for the character as is.

They're doing it right on the CW with their new Superman show. Clark's challenges aren't physical, they're interpersonal. They're about how a god-like being deals with the more down-to-Earth issues like raising two teenage sons and trying to support his wife, all while his father in law is berating him for shirking his responsibilities for the world.

Yeah the comics guys have no issues writing Superman stories. The TV show is being handled well...and I’d say that it even shares some DNA with MoS. The film studio just seems baffled. Now they’re handling it to JJ, because we know he won’t be divisive.

Have you read the script for Superman Flyby or a synopsis? Yikes. It seems like the same bad ideas keep circulating through that studio even though the execs and creatives change.

Oh yeah I forgot they're going with JJ for the next superman. Trek, Wars and now the man of steel. Man's like a plague.

Maybe if JJ had made Justice League, Steppenwolf would have been hunting down a Mystery Box rather than a Mother Box.

I don't get how JJ keeps getting reboot jobs when each time he does it the franchise tanks shortly after.

I had not seen that JJ was given the job of the next Superman film. I is a sad.


Anyone else want Dee Snyder's Justice League?

Haven't seen it yet as I need to sweet talk the Mrs. into another streaming service, but I've noticed a decided lack of "Loopy Lex" commentary. Was he more restrained in this film?

Lex was really only in the post-credit-but-it-happens-befor-the-credits scene. I still think he’s poorly cast, but isn’t really given enough time to be all loopy. He recruits Deathstroke still, who has a grudge against Batman implied to be over his missing eye, and Lex tells him who Batman really is.

 Grimskul wrote:
I don't get how JJ keeps getting reboot jobs when each time he does it the franchise tanks shortly after.

Y'know, the Dakka Glossary makes a bunch of these comments a whole lot more amusing...

 Dysartes wrote:

 Grimskul wrote:
I don't get how JJ keeps getting reboot jobs when each time he does it the franchise tanks shortly after.

Y'know, the Dakka Glossary makes a bunch of these comments a whole lot more amusing...

And oddly factual...

 AduroT wrote:
Lex was really only in the post-credit-but-it-happens-befor-the-credits scene. I still think he’s poorly cast, but isn’t really given enough time to be all loopy. He recruits Deathstroke still, who has a grudge against Batman implied to be over his missing eye, and Lex tells him who Batman really is.

He specifically gets called out as having been driven crazy and cured at Arkham in the scene. The important thing though is that he's not really in the movie in any capacity at all. Same with Leto, those two end up being the after dinner mint to the film laced with ipecac.

To be fair, JJ isn't confirmed to be directing yet. He's definitely producing though. Coates is a gifted writer. Will really have to see exactly where that goes.

More like the Boxing Day poop after Christmas Dinner with the all the trimmings and not being allowed to leave the table until you’ve cleared the plate your Granny insists on constantly topping up