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On Warlocks.

I was pondering them this morning. And today I rewatched them final episodes of the Clone Wars TV series.

Surely Warlocks could fulfil a Jedi like role within Eldar armies? By their abilities are otherwise slightly better than average infantry lifted to dizzying heights?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
On Warlocks.

I was pondering them this morning. And today I rewatched them final episodes of the Clone Wars TV series.

Surely Warlocks could fulfil a Jedi like role within Eldar armies? By their abilities are otherwise slightly better than average infantry lifted to dizzying heights?

It definitely worked in DoW2. Question is how to translate that onto the table.

Indeed. Hopefully offering a cross property comparison will give peeps something to let their thoughts to.

Pilfer a rule from the Dark kins combat drugs, each Warlock provides his squad with a permanent version of one of the buffs from Runes of Battle, but like drugs no duplicates until every choice takenand casting anything but Smite switches it off till recast

What are Runes of Battle like?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
What are Runes of Battle like?

-1 to hit on a unit
+2 leadership
+1 to hit in CC
+1 to saving throws
Move twice
+1 to wound

With the option to cast it on enemies for the inverse effect.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Mezmorki wrote:

Through all of this, Eldar in the lore are praised for their speed, flexibility, and foresight. But really, only the SPEED element actually translates into the rules. Eldar units are decidedly non-flexible, and their foresight isn't really represented at all.

This is one of my beefs with the current setup. For the 7th to 8th transition, Eldar lost Battle Focus, where they could get a bunch of extra movement, and traded it for an extra 1" on their movement stat. This was in addition to losing the Initiative stat. That was a rough deal for them on the "speed" front.

They still have Battle Focus, it allowes you to Advance and shoot assault weapons without penalty. I've actually found it to be pretty useful on Dire Avengers but Banshees and Scorpions couldn't give a toss.

Honestly when it comes to Fire Dragons and even Wraithguard their biggest problem is built into the core rules of the game, you can't disembark from a transport after it's moved. With only a 12" gun thats a serious problem, I think no matter what rules they are given their fusion guns need to be upped to 18" range minimum to have any kind of usefulness, expecting a transport with what is supposed to be one of the most lethal anti tank units in the game embarked to just sit there infront of your opponent for a turn and hope they survive is a complete none starter.

 Imateria wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Mezmorki wrote:

Through all of this, Eldar in the lore are praised for their speed, flexibility, and foresight. But really, only the SPEED element actually translates into the rules. Eldar units are decidedly non-flexible, and their foresight isn't really represented at all.

This is one of my beefs with the current setup. For the 7th to 8th transition, Eldar lost Battle Focus, where they could get a bunch of extra movement, and traded it for an extra 1" on their movement stat. This was in addition to losing the Initiative stat. That was a rough deal for them on the "speed" front.

They still have Battle Focus, it allowes you to Advance and shoot assault weapons without penalty. I've actually found it to be pretty useful on Dire Avengers but Banshees and Scorpions couldn't give a toss.

Ahh, that's true. . . however I'd point out that every army can fire assault weapons after advancing, so the Eldar Battle Focus isn't so much a boost to maneuverability as it is to firepower. The Previous Battle Focus rule allowed units to shoot (any weapon) and then Run, or Run and then shoot (any weapon). It was a pure maneuverability boost, even allowing for fire-and-fade actions. I thought it was a lovely rule for them.

Honestly when it comes to Fire Dragons and even Wraithguard their biggest problem is built into the core rules of the game, you can't disembark from a transport after it's moved. With only a 12" gun thats a serious problem, I think no matter what rules they are given their fusion guns need to be upped to 18" range minimum to have any kind of usefulness, expecting a transport with what is supposed to be one of the most lethal anti tank units in the game embarked to just sit there infront of your opponent for a turn and hope they survive is a complete none starter.

This is a good point, made even more poignant by the fact that units disembarking from Drop Pods can fire away to their hearts content,

 Insectum7 wrote:

Honestly when it comes to Fire Dragons and even Wraithguard their biggest problem is built into the core rules of the game, you can't disembark from a transport after it's moved. With only a 12" gun thats a serious problem, I think no matter what rules they are given their fusion guns need to be upped to 18" range minimum to have any kind of usefulness, expecting a transport with what is supposed to be one of the most lethal anti tank units in the game embarked to just sit there infront of your opponent for a turn and hope they survive is a complete none starter.

This is a good point, made even more poignant by the fact that units disembarking from Drop Pods can fire away to their hearts content,

Yes - along with every unit that can deepstrike. Transports lost a lot of their utility, and units without access to deepstrike/drop pods that relied on transports are really hindered now.

Originally. Eldar Warlocks could be taken in eldar guardian squads. Like they were an upgrade...

So it would make sense you could get them in that.

Seer Councils used to be only for Uthwe. So you would take warlocks in guardian squads. I even have the old codex to prove it lol.

I can't wait to hear all the complaining when Eldar get their army upgrade and people don't like it! Exciting!!

Anyways, is there anything at all in the Rumor engine that even looks remotely Eldar related? I was looking through the complied images today and didn't seen anything that looked like it belonged to the craftworlds.

 Togusa wrote:
I can't wait to hear all the complaining when Eldar get their army upgrade and people don't like it! Exciting!!

Anyways, is there anything at all in the Rumor engine that even looks remotely Eldar related? I was looking through the complied images today and didn't seen anything that looked like it belonged to the craftworlds.

Nothing. There has been nothing.

I won't complain I want new models, but if they become space marines where they get monthly releases then erm well thats fine I guess?

The issue with Eldar Currently is there isn't much design space for them, and have been run into a wall.

The way to fix this is making each aspect of death for Ynnari and you can get really creative with that entirely.

A lack of anything in rumour engines doesn't necessarily mean anything.

The only thing teased for the Necrons was Szeras' Blackstone thing on his back.

 Asherian Command wrote:
Originally. Eldar Warlocks could be taken in eldar guardian squads. Like they were an upgrade...

No, "originally" they were characters with varying level of psychic ability, depending on what you paid for.

There was a game before 3rd edition, after all...

Going back to the Autarchs thing, this is how I think Autarchs should be like in terms of their style of command.

Raloth suddenly turned off the corridor and through a pair of hissing doors, into a small cylindrical room. It was simple, unadorned but was obviously a training area.

"This is my training quarters," said Raloth. "Usually, I would be training with my warriors, but over the next two weeks we will be in here when you are not with your people on your ship."

"Ah! I see!"

"You see what?"

"You train with your warriors to boost morale, am I right?"

"You are, correct," said Raloth. "But it does not take incredible mental capacity to figure that out. Now, Attelus before we start. I have a question for you."

His eyes narrowed. "And you must answer truthfully. I am no seer, but I will know if you lie."

Attelus nodded.

"What do you want?" said the autarch.

The question took Attelus off guard, but only for a second. "I want to hunt down Etuarq. I want to bring him to justice and avenge the countless people he has killed."

Raloth looked at Attelus for a few, weighted seconds.

"No," said the autarch eventually.

"What? What do you mean, no?" Attelus exclaimed.

"Remember, title! I am your teacher, Attelus Kaltos! This is a rare honour for a human such as you! And you will show me the respect I deserve! And yes: no. It is not the answer I am looking for. Now answer the question again and answer correctly this time. What do you want?"

Attelus let out an animated sigh and stood struggling to think up another answer.

"I...I don't know," he said. "Adelana? I want to be with Adelana, does that suffice?"

Raloth shook his head sighed and stroked his thin nose. "Yet again, you are incorrect."

Attelus let out a loud groan and hunched forward.

"Okay!" said the autarch. "Perhaps I am going about this the wrong way. You are human, and while the Farseer has gifted you immortality, you are unaccustomed to the thought of living so long and so...Why are you smiling?"

"You said okay," said Attelus. "Autarch."

"Yes? So?"

"It is a term commonly used on my homeworld. My country, Velrosia to be exact, autarch."

Raloth stared at Attelus briefly, before flinching suddenly.

"Forget about that!" Raloth snapped. "It is immaterial! Now, Attelus. When I asked you what you want I meant uh, I forget that word. It means in a long time. I mean what do you want, after you manage to defeat the Etuarq mon'keigh. What do you want in the...In the-"

"Long term?"

Raloth pointed at Attelus with an animated movement. "That is it! You mon'keigh and your low-Gothic! I have spent many cycles trying to master the language but have yet to achieve it."

"Well, nobodies perfect," said Attelus with a shrug and he had to fight the urge shuffle impatiently.

"Wise words, I must confess," said Raloth. "Not even my kind, no matter how much many of us proclaim so. So, Attelus Kaltos, now you understand what I mean please answer the question. Take your time if you must."

Attelus smiled and thought, but it didn't take long for him to find the answer. The memory of sitting in that aircraft, flying to Taryst's tower three years ago suddenly sprung into his mind.

"I want to travel the galaxy," he said. "I want to teach what I've learned in my long life to later generations. Teach them the mistakes their forefathers made, so they may never repeat them again."

Raloth smiled. "That is a noble cause, Attelus. But I fear it is one doomed for failure. As I understand it, your Emperor tried the same, and he failed. Spectacularly. What makes you think you can succeed? And what may or may not be mistakes, could be up to interpretation."

"I don't know, autarch," said Attelus. "But by the throne, I'll try. And I'll try to keep it simple. Don't build nuclear weapons, don't worship the chaos gods etcetera, etcetera."

The autarch nodded with what might've been respect. "That is a sign of wisdom, Attelus Kaltos. Being able to admit that you 'don't know' when you do not know. I am steadily seeing what Faleaseen sees in you."

Attelus couldn't help be taken aback by the melancholy tingeing the autarch's tone.

"D-did I answer correctly?"

"You did," said Raloth as with blinding speed, he drew his power sword, and it blazed into life. "Your training begins in earnest!"

Then with a snarl, he charged.

For seemingly the fiftieth time Attelus was thrown onto his arse. Power sword flying from his grasp.

"You have skill," said Raloth as he lightly paced. "And your speed and reflexes are far beyond normal humans, perhaps even rivalling some of the dark kin. But you have yet to reach your true potential."

"I thought you were going to teach me how to be a leader," said Attelus. "Not kicking the ever-loving crap out of me."

Raloth barked out a laugh. "Your speed, it even outdoes mine, but I have something you do not."

"What?"

"Experience. I have been an autarch for over five hundred of your years. I have fought against the dark kin; many were more skilled than I. I have killed Space Marines who have given their souls to the four and have received their blessings. I have even fought and defeated the elite of the elite, the assassins of your Imperium who were far more skilled than I, but yet I am here while they are not. Why do you think that is?"

"Hmm," Attelus mused as he climbed to his feet, searching for the answer, but it alluded him. "Sorry. Don't know why?"

"Patience, thinking ahead," said Raloth as though it was the most obvious answer in the galaxy. "Fighting and the Path of Command are the same things. As I understand it, you humans have a game called Regicide, am I correct?"

"I suck at Regicide," Attelus sighed.

"Well get better, you must learn to think not five or six moves ahead but dozens, even hundreds if needs be. There is always someone stronger, faster and more skilled than you, so do not just trust in your skill and speed but in your mind as well. You have trained, so your body moves on its own accord, I can see. Your mind is clear, so use it."

Attelus nodded; his father had never said that. Serghar Kaltos had always emphasized going in for the kill. Plan for the initial strike but whatever happened after was fair game, but Serghar wasn't a commander he was an assassin, pure and simple.

"I see."

"You must think the same way of those who you command," said Raloth. "You must know the strength, weaknesses and personalities of your men. What they will do and how they will do it, ten, twenty moves ahead."

"Just like one must know how and why all the units in Regicide move," said Attelus, his eyes widening in realisation.

"Precisely, but do not think of them as mere units on the board. They have hopes, dreams and wants and needs just the same as you. Tell me, Attelus Kaltos what is the true meaning of being a commander?"

Attelus pouted and shrugged. "Command?"

Raloth laughed and shook his head. "Yes, but no. The true meaning of being a commander is to serve. You serve those which you command; you serve them so they can be the best they can be. You direct them, while you consider the big picture while they consider the small.

"I'm the mind, they're the body one and same, yet separate. I serve them, so they serve me. Is that right?"

"That is correct. But yet again, it does not take much intellect to figure that out. Do not be too happy with your achievements; there is always, always more to learn. Now, I think that is enough for today. Go back to your companions, and we will start discussing the why and how your group has fallen out tomorrow."

Attelus nodded and started for the door but paused and looked back to Raloth.

"If you know so much about those under your command, why did you only let Klrith know now you were training me?" Attelus said. "You must've known he would react so negatively."

"I did," said Raloth.

Attelus waited, expecting elaboration but the Eldar said nothing more.

 Togusa wrote:
I can't wait to hear all the complaining when Eldar get their army upgrade and people don't like it! Exciting!!

But predictable. Save 5th edition the eldar always have at least one stretch where they are clearly the most powerful faction in the game and I doubt 9th will be any different when their next release comes around... unless GW start releasing more chapters and legions and we end up in 10th first.

 Adrassil wrote:
*Snip*

For those of us that didn't come to this thread to read fan fiction can you please summerise?

 Imateria wrote:

 Adrassil wrote:
*Snip*

For those of us that didn't come to this thread to read fan fiction can you please summerise?

Basically commanders thinks about the large picture with the assets they have and should be thinking as deep as they can in advance.
Very hot take.

But again it's hard to show the effectiveness of a commander as a strategic genius at a tactical level game. Basically.an Eldar force should always have 50% or more extra troops to account for their tactical nous and foresight.

Command points could be used for that.
And not because there is "command" in their name but because if you get more CP, you can do more weird stuff, thus your units are more efficient. Depending on what shenanigans you have available of course.
Dunno how much down this path we can go though.

A.T. wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
I can't wait to hear all the complaining when Eldar get their army upgrade and people don't like it! Exciting!!

But predictable. Save 5th edition the eldar always have at least one stretch where they are clearly the most powerful faction in the game and I doubt 9th will be any different when their next release comes around... unless GW start releasing more chapters and legions and we end up in 10th first.

This is fear is a large part of the problem.

To the best of my knowledge, every Craftworld codex has had killer combos. Things notoriously difficult for an opponent to counter. But, they typically depend on spamming specific units, and are quite set as to what else you might want to include.

That’s...limiting. And disappointing for Craftworld fans and their opponents, as it means a lack of variety on the field of war.]

Now, are those combos just plain old super powered, and the rest of the Codex is no worse than “pretty good to be honest”? Or are those combos favoured because the rest of the Codex is “bloody awful”? I for one don’t know. And I dare say opinions may vary.

What I want to see is a Codex closer to how the Necron one panned out. Lots of possible builds and playstyles, and maybe only one truly duff unit in the Reanimator, as it’s neither Arthur nor Martha, and just doesn’t slot into any build particularly comfortably.

That is Codex gold in my opinion. Some heavily number crunched combos for very competitive environments, but none which (outside of an unlucky pairing against your Natural Counter) feel like you’ve just agreed to chop off both your legs before a jumping contest. This means we can happily just.....buy the models we like, and not get slapped around like a red headed stepchild for it when it comes to fisticuffs.

Every edition the Eldar have had superstar units, either due to some combo of rules and sometimes because a lot of units have gone 3-4 editions with bare minimum tweaks and ended up far behind the curve that another unit is just better in all regards (ie Shining Spears utterly trumping the other two Melee Aspect)

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

A.T. wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
I can't wait to hear all the complaining when Eldar get their army upgrade and people don't like it! Exciting!!

But predictable. Save 5th edition the eldar always have at least one stretch where they are clearly the most powerful faction in the game and I doubt 9th will be any different when their next release comes around... unless GW start releasing more chapters and legions and we end up in 10th first.

This is fear is a large part of the problem.

To the best of my knowledge, every Craftworld codex has had killer combos. Things notoriously difficult for an opponent to counter. But, they typically depend on spamming specific units, and are quite set as to what else you might want to include.

That’s...limiting. And disappointing for Craftworld fans and their opponents, as it means a lack of variety on the field of war.]

Now, are those combos just plain old super powered, and the rest of the Codex is no worse than “pretty good to be honest”? Or are those combos favoured because the rest of the Codex is “bloody awful”? I for one don’t know. And I dare say opinions may vary.

What I want to see is a Codex closer to how the Necron one panned out. Lots of possible builds and playstyles, and maybe only one truly duff unit in the Reanimator, as it’s neither Arthur nor Martha, and just doesn’t slot into any build particularly comfortably.

That is Codex gold in my opinion. Some heavily number crunched combos for very competitive environments, but none which (outside of an unlucky pairing against your Natural Counter) feel like you’ve just agreed to chop off both your legs before a jumping contest. This means we can happily just.....buy the models we like, and not get slapped around like a red headed stepchild for it when it comes to fisticuffs.

From my experiences with the 7th and 8th ed codexes it's been a case of certain combo's being incredibly powerful (and 7th had Scattbikes and the Wraithknight criminally undercosted) whilst the rest of the codex was largely rubbish.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Now, are those combos just plain old super powered, and the rest of the Codex is no worse than “pretty good to be honest”? Or are those combos favoured because the rest of the Codex is “bloody awful”? I for one don’t know.

Depends on which codex and in which era. Can you name three genuinely 'bad' units from the 6e book for instance?

And with 46 units (not including forgeworld or killteam) there is room for the odd dud. Like the marine codex if a transport, tank, troop, or other doesn't meet the cut there are more waiting in line behind it.

 Imateria wrote:

From my experiences with the 7th and 8th ed codexes it's been a case of certain combo's being incredibly powerful (and 7th had Scattbikes and the Wraithknight criminally undercosted) whilst the rest of the codex was largely rubbish.

Ehh. I think in 7e, the Eldar codex was a lot like the 8e v2/9e Marines codices; some obviously super OP stuff that outclassed everybody, then some stuff that was weaker than that but still imminently usable. And with formations and the like in 7th, you could cobble a lot of random stuff together and hold your own in most casual scenarios (like even footslogging Aspects weren't garbage). Like, compared to all the other codices it was sort of BS, but looking back, that book was sort of a precursor to what we've seen with the 9e books today.

Now, on 8e I fully agree, that book always had lots of relative turds even at launch.

I never tought I would live to see people actually having genuine nostalgy for jump-shoot-jump or similar rules. Not that long ago those were some of the most frustrating rules most people complained about, units shooting and then running out of LOS to avoid being shoot back.

 Galas wrote:
I never tought I would live to see people actually having genuine nostalgy for jump-shoot-jump or similar rules. Not that long ago those were some of the most frustrating rules most people complained about, units shooting and then running out of LOS to avoid being shoot back.

I don't disagree with you there, those rules were crazy (and I think that when Tau players ask for JSJ back too). But you can't deny -- those were the things Eldar leaned on for survivability (and initiative, and high WS, and stacking -1s in 8th), and all those things are gone. You can solve the issue in many different ways, but the point is, Eldar have an issue, and it needs to be solved in a way that's in keeping with the fluff of the army. Btw, a propos: https://www.goonhammer.com/start-competing-craftworlds-updated/

In 9th, the lack of survivability and increasing reductions in variance for competitive factions have left the Craftworlds, often relying on T3 bodies and random damage weaponry, in the dust. There’s no real saving the codex at this point short of a full revamp – here’s hoping we get some new models in the process.

Nailed it, GH.

 Galas wrote:
I never tought I would live to see people actually having genuine nostalgy for jump-shoot-jump or similar rules. Not that long ago those were some of the most frustrating rules most people complained about, units shooting and then running out of LOS to avoid being shoot back.

At the very real risk of unfairly casting people in a bad light, I do wonder how many of those complaints are from people relying on an OP list rather than an understanding of the game?

It will by no means be all of them, I’d like to that clear. But a lot of the time when I’ve read such complaints, it’s seemed more a case of “I can’t deal with that’ and more ‘I refuse to change my tactics and strategy to account for his tricksy playstyle, every army should just jolly well stay where it is until I can shoot them’.

Craftworld Eldar should be a frustrating, irritating opponent. The opponent shouldn’t expect a stand up fight - because that’s not how the Craftworld’s are described.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Asherian Command wrote:
Originally. Eldar Warlocks could be taken in eldar guardian squads. Like they were an upgrade...

No, "originally" they were characters with varying level of psychic ability, depending on what you paid for.

There was a game before 3rd edition, after all...

I wasn't talking about that but okay!

The biggest issue with 9th.... Is that weapons are far too effective, and we have too many numbers. From wounds, to toughness to strength. To most weapons on base, have 2 attacks or D2 damage. Which means... Eldar just sort of suck cause they are all 1 W models.

I think specifically 4th edition you could take a Warlock as a squad leader. Which allowed you to basically have psychic powers in each guardian squad. Which made them invaluable. Along with Dire Avengers being some of the best infantry in the game at that point... until they got hit with the nerf hammer eight times in a row. Only for 25 points yo ucould take a warlock... (Who can then be upgraded to spirit seers meaning each guardian squad could help your wraithguard). This was before each warlock got like more wounds, but it was hard to hit them especially with cover saves and other abilities to mitigate this.

Plus eldar had fleet of foot, which gave them more movement, along with a ton of extra movement from warlocks. Every unit in the eldar had fleet of foot. Then we also had a ton of very powerful abilities like bladestorm which gave ALL dire avengers a second shot as well. Which was an amazing ability.

Each Exarch's power flowed to the ENTIRE squad not just the exarch.

Plus each of the weapons and gear for Exarchs was incredibly potent with the diresword basically murdering you if you fail a leadership test, so the key was to spread out his wounds across a whole squad, and you instantly kill that character / monster. REgardless of wounds remaining.

Then you also had a really potent ability of essentially doubling their movement.

Chainsabres for Striking Scoprions +1 to strength.... And also have a +3 save. Ontop of their +1 attack from their mandiblasters. Then including their +1 attack from their pistols... so each striking scoprion would have 3 attacks at strength 4. While also having move through cover as an ability or you had them infiltrate.

Then you had the Howling banshees who ALWAYS attacked first, that was the benefit of takinga howling banshee. you would attack before the enemy would ever get a chance to attack. the Intiative system told you... Who goes first... who goes last. This was actually incredibly well balanced and one of the dumbest things they have removed.


The biggest advantage Eldar had was they would always... strike first. Usually. Because they were fast and lethal. Instead, we have 7" movement and no Initiative which has neutered them as a faction.

Many die hard Eldar fans wouldn't like it at all, but I think the aspects need a different stance/fire setting meaning their weapon profile changes, i'd actually suggest alternate builds and weapon additions but then the purest in me things banshees should only have power swords etc.

Banshees need a higher damage output mode, swap out some high ap low damage swords for higher damage, str and lower ap options. Fire dragons could have a fire setting switch where their fusion guns turn into fusion shotguns of sorts, slightly lower ap and damage but more shots at maybe an even shorter range etc etc...

Aspects are crippled by their specialisms, you need to be able to have more options to them.

I also think Eldar in general of all varieties should be the faction that can disembark a transport after moving.