Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I thought Warlocks were W3.

nope, 2 fething wounds. Nothing worse than getting a perils of the warp on a warlock thats next to your main bubble.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I thought Warlocks were W3.

nope, 2 fething wounds. Nothing worse than getting a perils of the warp on a warlock thats next to your main bubble.

The first time I blew up all my warlocks because of 1 single peril was hilarious as it didn't occurred to me before that it could happen (and disappointing but hey).

dhallnet wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I thought Warlocks were W3.

They are, when on bikes.
Otherwise they're W2.

Probably what triggered that thought then. No reason they couldn't be given a wound buff.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Probably what triggered that thought then. No reason they couldn't be given a wound buff.

Looking over the past few pages - extra wounds or armour, longer range and perhaps more AP, extra close combat attacks, etc. It'll be interesting to see if GW take that path and end up primarising and anti-primarising everything until the game is basically back where we were before primaris, but rolling twice as many dice :p

A.T. wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Probably what triggered that thought then. No reason they couldn't be given a wound buff.

Looking over the past few pages - extra wounds or armour, longer range and perhaps more AP, extra close combat attacks, etc. It'll be interesting to see if GW take that path and end up primarising and anti-primarising everything until the game is basically back where we were before primaris, but rolling twice as many dice :p

A lot of these units didn't have the ability to do their job before Primaris were ever a thing.

2 Wound I am okay with. The Witchblade I would like to see buffed - like big time. I'd also like a warlock to be about...25 points 30 points with a spear.

Always wound on 2's(overruling any rule that modifies a successful wound roll or ignores wounds) -3 AP and mortal wounds on 6's to wound and can always make 1 additional attack with a the weapon like a chainsword. Singing spear goes to flat 3 damage but no +1 attack.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

A.T. wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Probably what triggered that thought then. No reason they couldn't be given a wound buff.

Looking over the past few pages - extra wounds or armour, longer range and perhaps more AP, extra close combat attacks, etc. It'll be interesting to see if GW take that path and end up primarising and anti-primarising everything until the game is basically back where we were before primaris, but rolling twice as many dice :p

Which is why we have to be careful. Eldar should not be strong defensively - the should be fast and deadly.

 Imateria wrote:
A lot of these units didn't have the ability to do their job before Primaris were ever a thing.

Same is true of the the oldmarines in 7th. Game had apocalypsed-up somewhat to superunits, cheap chaff, and inefficient bullet catchers.
I suppose this was inevitable when primaris were +1 rather than just truescale models. Marines are half the game, where they go everyone else has to chase.

A.T. wrote:

 Imateria wrote:
A lot of these units didn't have the ability to do their job before Primaris were ever a thing.

Same is true of the the oldmarines in 7th. Game had apocalypsed-up somewhat to superunits, cheap chaff, and inefficient bullet catchers.
I suppose this was inevitable when primaris were +1 rather than just truescale models. Marines are half the game, where they go everyone else has to chase.

Consolidation of profiles would fix the issue but GW is incapable of consistent rules writing.

I found this google doc someone made showing the dates and releases of models for each individual army.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/123mjQsYY-8UvsYJLV-ZkazjbsWrLCvVbuhvKKVPchlw/edit#gid=850936607

In the whole of 8th edition Eldar got 3 releases. One squad and two characters. Space marines got 30 releases.

In 9th edition Space Marines have got 25 releases so far. Eldar so far have got nothing.

 dan2026 wrote:
I found this google doc someone made showing the dates and releases of models for each individual army.

This was posted here a couple of weeks back on another thread. I remember wondering if it was accurate or if nids really had been MIA since 2014.

Goes to show eldar are getting the same releases or more as many others - which is to say not a whole lot. Tau one release since 2015, dark eldar three since '14, guard two since '14, quins nothing since '15, the GK entry is all kinds of wrong. Not a release rate that makes much of a dent.

Yeah there are many armies getting fook all.

Its just Eldar seem to be saddled with the highest number of ancient models.

 Xenomancers wrote:
The Witchblade I would like to see buffed - like big time. I'd also like a warlock to be about...25 points 30 points with a spear.

Always wound on 2's(overruling any rule that modifies a successful wound roll or ignores wounds) -3 AP and mortal wounds on 6's to wound and can always make 1 additional attack with a the weapon like a chainsword. Singing spear goes to flat 3 damage but no +1 attack.

Oof. So a witchblade warlock would be rocking 3 attacks that hit on 3s, wound imperial knights on 2+, reduce power armor to a 6+ save, and can potentially do 4 damage per attack? That can also cast powers from one of the better disciplines in the game. For roughly the same points cost as a heavy weapon platform. I feel like that might be asking for a bit much. Have you tried out the witch strike psychic power? I've found it's a fun way to give my witch blades a bit more oomph. We could maybe modify that power to do something like what you're describing instead of making it a baked-in thing.

30" shuriken catapults don't quite sit right with me. That gives the alien cousin of one of those foam disc shooter toys the same range as a tau rifle and nearly the same effective range as a sniper rifle. I get that catapults haven't kept up with storm bolters very well, but is extremely good long range really a quality shuriken weapons are known for? Feels like we're kind of just giving them a random one-up over bolt weapons out of spite for not getting more updates/variety over the years.

Wyldhunt wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
The Witchblade I would like to see buffed - like big time. I'd also like a warlock to be about...25 points 30 points with a spear.

Always wound on 2's(overruling any rule that modifies a successful wound roll or ignores wounds) -3 AP and mortal wounds on 6's to wound and can always make 1 additional attack with a the weapon like a chainsword. Singing spear goes to flat 3 damage but no +1 attack.

Oof. So a witchblade warlock would be rocking 3 attacks that hit on 3s, wound imperial knights on 2+, reduce power armor to a 6+ save, and can potentially do 4 damage per attack? That can also cast powers from one of the better disciplines in the game. For roughly the same points cost as a heavy weapon platform. I feel like that might be asking for a bit much. Have you tried out the witch strike psychic power? I've found it's a fun way to give my witch blades a bit more oomph. We could maybe modify that power to do something like what you're describing instead of making it a baked-in thing.

30" shuriken catapults don't quite sit right with me. That gives the alien cousin of one of those foam disc shooter toys the same range as a tau rifle and nearly the same effective range as a sniper rifle. I get that catapults haven't kept up with storm bolters very well, but is extremely good long range really a quality shuriken weapons are known for? Feels like we're kind of just giving them a random one-up over bolt weapons out of spite for not getting more updates/variety over the years.

No offense Wyld, but I'm not really sure what you're after here. I think I've seen you talk about a ward save for Eldar, and maybe a couple other buffs, but for the most part you've just told folks how their suggestions are too powerful or not fluffy. Do you think Warlocks with Witch Strike are good now? I mean, it's still an AP- attack, and they still only have 2 of them right now... and Witch Strike affects one Warlock in a Conclave, just to make sure you know.

And how does a Shuriken Catapult at 30'' suddenly become "extremely good"? It's still S4 AP- most of the time. Yeah, Pulse Rifles have been crept out of power too. Not really a reason to not buff the ShuriCat.

but is extremely good long range really a quality shuriken weapons are known for?

They're railguns, in case anyone forgot.

24" would put them back to the range they were in 2nd ed, and the same as Bolters again. 30" would be too much, and should be reserved for special cases. The Bolt Rifle shouldn't be 30", imo.

Assault 2 24" would be great for Eldar, as they could advance and fire it for a great engagement range. 7+D6+24

30" could be reserved as an Dire Avenger Exarch once-per-game mini-Feat/Strategem.

Alternatively, an improved AP as they guide their fellows in to critical points in the armor for such, or the ability to ignore the benefits of Cover.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

No offense Wyld, but I'm not really sure what you're after here. I think I've seen you talk about a ward save for Eldar, and maybe a couple other buffs, but for the most part you've just told folks how their suggestions are too powerful or not fluffy.

No offense taken. I'm not entirely sure what I want a full craftworld codex to look like. I'm just enjoying discussing the ideas presented and reluctant to make too many pure damage increases. Hope I'm not being a downer.

Do you think Warlocks with Witch Strike are good now? I mean, it's still an AP- attack, and they still only have 2 of them right now... and Witch Strike affects one Warlock in a Conclave, just to make sure you know.

Warlocks with witch strike aren't great, but doing up to 4 damage against a character or vehicle has occassionally been very nice. The lack of AP on a witchblade does feel a bit odd, but making them AP -3 would turn them into howling banshees that wound imperial knights on a 2+ and potentially kill a grav armor model with a single attack all while having psychic powers. 25-30 points feels too cheap for all that, plus it would step on the toes of banshees. Letting a single warlock's attacks be AP -3 each turn (via an updated witch strike or what have you) would avoid that problem while still giving them a bit more punch.

Warlocks are tricky because they have so many things going for them. Invuln saves, special melee weapons, and psychic powers (plus 4 shuriken shots each if you put them on bikes) is a lot of benefits to have on a single unit. But if you make them too expensive, they start to lose a lot of luster. That's why I kind of like the idea of nerfing the stats of models in the conclave a bit; it gives you an excuse to keep the cost of individual models relatively low.

And how does a Shuriken Catapult at 30'' suddenly become "extremely good"? It's still S4 AP- most of the time. Yeah, Pulse Rifles have been crept out of power too. Not really a reason to not buff the ShuriCat.

I only meant that the range would be really good. The gun on the whole probably wouldn't be broken, but giving it nearly the same range as a sniper rifle just seems like an overcompensation that doesn't particularly fit the weapon's fluff. I don't recall a lot of moments where a dire avenger snipes his target from a block away. 18" or 24" would be inkeeping with other mid-range basic weapons in the game (bolters, gauss flayers, shootas, lasguns). 30" kind of feels like we're one-upping other factions with a weapon that isn't known for its long range.

 dan2026 wrote:
Its just Eldar seem to be saddled with the highest number of ancient models.

They had a large update in the middle of GWs finecast phase.

But that phase didn't last and most other factions just lost a bunch of stuff to 'no model no rules'. Less finecast via less units.

Cronch wrote:

but is extremely good long range really a quality shuriken weapons are known for?

They're railguns, in case anyone forgot.

Sort of. At the risk of going down a rabbit hole, my understanding is that shuriken weapons, despite being propelled railgun style, aren't meant to behave the same way a conventional railgun does. You're not blasting a hole through your target's chest. You're slinging tiny, high-speed buzzsaws that individually don't do a ton of damage but collectively saw through limbs and eventually hit weak points in armor. I could be wrong, but I've always pictured the force that goes into firing a shuriken being primarily there to give the shuriken enough force and speed to cut its target rather than making the flat shurikens especially good at maintaining velocity at long distances.

I see catapults as being closer to shotguns or flamers than sniper rifles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Charistoph wrote:
30" could be reserved as an Dire Avenger Exarch once-per-game mini-Feat/Strategem.

Alternatively, an improved AP as they guide their fellows in to critical points in the armor for such, or the ability to ignore the benefits of Cover.

I could see improved AP up close. Isn't that one of our custom craftworld traits at the moment? I've also seen reasonable pitches for lowering their strength but upping their rate of fire. Maybe they could be rapidfire 2 strength 3 AP0 and keep their AP-3 on 6+ rule? Compared to lasblasters, you'd be more reliant on getting close and rolling 6+ to wound, but you'd reduce marines to 6+ saves with half your successful wounds. Just spitballing.

Heres the thing.

Drukhari have - Flickerfields /Obsessions, Combat drugs/ PFP.

Harlies have - Holofields as well as invulns.

Craftworld have - basically.. Nothing. Battle focus for our 12" guns... (yay?) LFR strat for 2 Cp... Great..

With harliees breaking away from CWE we kind of lost access to holofields as its a "Harlequins only" thing. (Apart from shadow specters coz of foreword)

As things stand craftworlds just cant get any of these rules without becoming better or worse versions of dark eldar or harlies due to base unit profiles and points.

I think this is the main problem. White scars/ Marines already have better versions battlefocus as they can advance and charge.

This really leaves CWE in the crapper.

So, should Our tanks not get access to some sord of holofield/flicker field at the very least? Why are CWE the least technologically equipped of the Eldar even though we have the most "old tech" as the craftworlds are basicaly pre fall tech,..

The whole schtick of craft worlders is about their dwindling numbers. They also are supposed to have some of the most advanced tech In the galaxy.

I like the idea of buffing their armor to be honest, coupled with giving them back something battle focus so they can move after shooting and stay quick on their feet.

One idea about armor would be to make it so that all eldar army (or depending on the type) can shrug off a certain amount of AP. For example, maybe guardian army becomes 4+ save and it ignores enemy AP -1. Aspect armor could be 3+ and ignores AP of its only -1 or -2. This would help protect eldar better without automatically giving them a higher base save. It also means that high AP weapons that punch through (ie ap -3) would have their full effect and mostly negate the armor.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Cronch wrote:

but is extremely good long range really a quality shuriken weapons are known for?

They're railguns, in case anyone forgot.

Sort of. At the risk of going down a rabbit hole, my understanding is that shuriken weapons, despite being propelled railgun style, aren't meant to behave the same way a conventional railgun does. You're not blasting a hole through your target's chest. You're slinging tiny, high-speed buzzsaws that individually don't do a ton of damage but collectively saw through limbs and eventually hit weak points in armor. I could be wrong, but I've always pictured the force that goes into firing a shuriken being primarily there to give the shuriken enough force and speed to cut its target rather than making the flat shurikens especially good at maintaining velocity at long distances.

I see catapults as being closer to shotguns or flamers than sniper rifles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Charistoph wrote:
30" could be reserved as an Dire Avenger Exarch once-per-game mini-Feat/Strategem.

Alternatively, an improved AP as they guide their fellows in to critical points in the armor for such, or the ability to ignore the benefits of Cover.

I could see improved AP up close. Isn't that one of our custom craftworld traits at the moment? I've also seen reasonable pitches for lowering their strength but upping their rate of fire. Maybe they could be rapidfire 2 strength 3 AP0 and keep their AP-3 on 6+ rule? Compared to lasblasters, you'd be more reliant on getting close and rolling 6+ to wound, but you'd reduce marines to 6+ saves with half your successful wounds. Just spitballing.

Not that I'm advocating for 30" ranged shurikens, but force = mass X acceleration. So for shuriken that weighs very little (being sliced very thinly off a stick) to have any penetrative power, it must necessarily be fired at very higher speed. It's mass is so small the force comes mostly from its acceleration. Thus it would consequently travel quite far under that same acceleration.


The new drukhari rules have given drazhar 2 rules that are what I've been asking for for years - 4++ and -1 damage to minimum 1.

My impression is that shurikens were supposed to mono-molecular and would essentially slice through armor by cleaving apart molecular bonds in the target material as opposed to trying to use more conventional methods of force and kinetic energy to break the armor.

Been reading my RT era books again, and to better frame my take on Aspect Warriors, I’ll explain what the Banshee Mask did in those days (and in 2nd if memory serves)

Firstly, let’s cover the basics of CC as of the Battle Manual (a late RT book, when the game largely became 2nd Ed.

When a charge was declared, enemy units had the option to flee, essentially a voluntary 2D6 route move. If that took you out of charge range, the charge failed. The unit then had to try to rally in its next turn.

If the unit was on Overwatch, it could shoot at the charging unit.

To resolve combat, each fight was resolved one at a time, model by model. You rolled 1D6 per attack, and added your WS to the highest dice to generate your score. You compared to your opponents roll, and the winner landed the difference in hits.

Example - Assault Marine (WS4, A2) charges a Chaos Marine (WS4, A1). The Assault Marine rolls a 2 and a 5. The 5 is highest, so with the WS added, his score is 9. The Chaos Marine rolls a 2. With his WS added, his score is a 6.

This gives the Assault Marine 3 hits on the Chaos Marine. The rest is pretty much as it is today. But those hits were only against the Chaos Marine. If all three caused unsaved wounds, they weren’t spread to the rest of the unit,

If you were in base to base with more than one model, you fought each in turn, but your opponent could add a cumulative +1 attack and +1 score.

So clearly, combat could be pretty effing nasty as it was - even combat mentalists could be successfully ganged up on and pulled down.

Banshees however? Banshees were super horrific.

First and foremost, when they charged the Mask prevented the enemy from declaring Overwatch or Fleeing. So provided you’re in range (no pre-measuring in those days), there’s no escape for the enemy.

But the really nasty bit? Any unit charged counted as WS0 for that round of combat.

Now, Banshees had WS5 if memory serves, so were in for a score of 6-11. The most the enemy could score was.....6.

Their Power Swords were S5, -2, D1. So those hits really did damage. Oh, and they could parry, which was a forced re-roll on one of your opponent’s attack dice. So they’d have to be really lucky to score 6....

Banshees could basically carve up any unit in the game, because they very rarely took any damage in the turn they charged, but dished out stunning levels of damage.

If you were an Eldar player and you didn’t field Banshees, you were in serious need of having your bumps felt.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Been reading my RT era books again, and to better frame my take on Aspect Warriors, I’ll explain what the Banshee Mask did in those days (and in 2nd if memory serves)

Firstly, let’s cover the basics of CC as of the Battle Manual (a late RT book, when the game largely became 2nd Ed.

When a charge was declared, enemy units had the option to flee, essentially a voluntary 2D6 route move. If that took you out of charge range, the charge failed. The unit then had to try to rally in its next turn.

If the unit was on Overwatch, it could shoot at the charging unit.

To resolve combat, each fight was resolved one at a time, model by model. You rolled 1D6 per attack, and added your WS to the highest dice to generate your score. You compared to your opponents roll, and the winner landed the difference in hits.

Example - Assault Marine (WS4, A2) charges a Chaos Marine (WS4, A1). The Assault Marine rolls a 2 and a 5. The 5 is highest, so with the WS added, his score is 9. The Chaos Marine rolls a 2. With his WS added, his score is a 6.

This gives the Assault Marine 3 hits on the Chaos Marine. The rest is pretty much as it is today. But those hits were only against the Chaos Marine. If all three caused unsaved wounds, they weren’t spread to the rest of the unit,

If you were in base to base with more than one model, you fought each in turn, but your opponent could add a cumulative +1 attack and +1 score.

So clearly, combat could be pretty effing nasty as it was - even combat mentalists could be successfully ganged up on and pulled down.

Banshees however? Banshees were super horrific.

First and foremost, when they charged the Mask prevented the enemy from declaring Overwatch or Fleeing. So provided you’re in range (no pre-measuring in those days), there’s no escape for the enemy.

But the really nasty bit? Any unit charged counted as WS0 for that round of combat.

Now, Banshees had WS5 if memory serves, so were in for a score of 6-11. The most the enemy could score was.....6.

Their Power Swords were S5, -2, D1. So those hits really did damage. Oh, and they could parry, which was a forced re-roll on one of your opponent’s attack dice. So they’d have to be really lucky to score 6....

Banshees could basically carve up any unit in the game, because they very rarely took any damage in the turn they charged, but dished out stunning levels of damage.

If you were an Eldar player and you didn’t field Banshees, you were in serious need of having your bumps felt.

2nd edition Banshees were WS 4. Power swords were S5 -3 D1. Combat was roll a number of D6 = Attacks. Take highest number and add to WS for a total. Additional 6's on the dice each added +1, while 1's were fumbles and had -1 to the total. Compare totals to your opponent. Winner inflicted number of hits equal to the difference.

Banshee masks in 2nd edition reduced the enemy's Attacks to 0 so they had only their base WS to defend, so they would likely take an immense number of power sword hits that would likely end them. Jain Zarr's Mask had a 4+ chance of triggering the mask effect again in the following turn on an affected opponent if they had survived the first turn of melee, even if she had not charged again

Prior to 3rd edition, the key differentiation between Banshees and Scorpions was Banshees got their bonuses only if they charged. Scorpions had mandiblasters that fired every turn (even if they were not that great except against Guard and Ork Boyz as they were S4 -2 D1. Not great compared to Banshees anyway). Only in 3rd edition did the difference shift to Banshees being low S good AP vs Scorpions with better S but worse AP. Banshees attacking first became their mask effect, but then with the Initiative system they were likely attacking first anyway.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
If you were an Eldar player and you didn’t field Banshees, you were in serious need of having your bumps felt

Pre 3rd edition eldar didn't need to field their best stuff to be more powerful than their opponent. Their shenanigans were many and powerful - and while GW weren't one for balancing the game back then they did make a point of adding the 'vortex detonator' vehicle wargear due to eldar players turning up with swooping hawk wings and vortex grenades (aka 'anything I want is dead, no saves').

In terms of banshees vs scorpions, the scorpions were better armoured and had more firepower. Marines would lose around one guy for every 4-5 scorpions, guardsmen one guy for every 2 scorpions just for being in combat with them each round, before any dice were rolled.The old wound chart meant that banshees were wounding chaff as well as elite more frequently though and the scorpions were not in any way stealthy back then.
Both types of aspect were cheaper than a bolter armed tactical marine - about the same cost as a bolter armed battle sister.

Aye, Banshees were so good at close combat they could fare well against Genestealers, of all things. A true anti-elite CC unit. The way my Assault Squads had to deal with them certainly wasn't CC, but flamers and hand flamers, lol.

The counter to that close combat horror was of course to just shoot them to death.

The Falcon didn’t hit until quite late in 2nd Ed. I want to say it wasn’t in the Codex, but don’t quote me on that.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
The counter to that close combat horror was of course to just shoot them to death.

The Falcon didn’t hit until quite late in 2nd Ed. I want to say it wasn’t in the Codex, but don’t quote me on that.

I'm pretty sure the only vehicles in the 2nd Ed 'dex were the Dreadnought, War Walker and Vyper.

OK, and the Jetbike.

So basically charging Banshee were unbeatable in CC?

Talk about bolter porn and marine power fantasies.