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 dan2026 wrote:
...Space Marines have just completed their second complete plastic army, to replace their first complete plastic army...

And their first complete plastic army has gone through about three generations of plastic kits (original 1e/2e-era stuff, 3e/4e range overhauls, 6e/7e range overhauls). Not everything gets an update every generation, but there's been one plastic Guardian kit and about four generations of Tactical Squad kits in the same period.

 bullyboy wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

bullyboy wrote:I want a scout sized wraithknight (plus decent wraithknight rules), sporting dual pulse lasers that could be switched out to other weapons (monafilament based as one, fusion the other).

Isn't a "scout-sized wraithknight" just like... a wraith lord? Or possibly even a war walker? I'd be down for some updated war walkers with new gun options. I'd also maybe question whether scouting is the best use of your half-dead twins if it's an actual wraith knight. ;D

That would be like saying "why do we need Armigers, we already have Dreadnoughts".

Eh. I feel like that analogy breaks down because you're talking about two different factions/codices. Armigers don't compete directly with dreadnoughts and fill the niche of being relatively affordable bodies in a knight army. A better analogy might be, "Do we need dreadnaughts, ironclads, ven dreads, warsuits, levi-dreads, primaris dreads, libby dreads, furioso dreads, Murderfang, and Bjorn?" And I'd argue that some of those are, in fact, redundant and that some of the units in that list cause other units on that list to be fielded less often because of direct competition.

A scout sized knight would be slightly bigger than the wraithlord and would be piloted, but there may not actually be design space for it, which is a shame since some Eldar weapons are simply not used enough (outside of FW of course).

So a primaris wraithlord then? ;D Yeah, not sure there's really design space there, and I'd worry about making war walkers, wraith lords, or wraith knights redundant with this hypothetical new unit. If you just want vibrocannons on a wraith knight or war walker or something, that's cool.

Plus, I'm not sold on the idea of a "wraith scout" from a fluff perspective. If it's a manned unit with a partially dead crew (thus making it a "wraith" unit), then what are those dead spirits doing that makes it better at scouting? Eldar wraiths are known for being quite bad at perceiving the physical world around them (thus the oldschool version of wraith sight that made them freeze up if they didn't have a psychic seeing eye dog nearby.) And you're describing something that's physically pretty large meaning it's easier to spot. So in an army that already has war walkers, rangers, and some of the galaxy's best psykers, I'm not sure why you would want/need a bulky ghost robot for a scouting role.

Unless you just think that space elf ghost mechas sound cool. In which case, that's totally fair. (But I'd still probably prefer not to create more competition for wraith lords in that role.)


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 AnomanderRake wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
...Space Marines have just completed their second complete plastic army, to replace their first complete plastic army...

And their first complete plastic army has gone through about three generations of plastic kits (original 1e/2e-era stuff, 3e/4e range overhauls, 6e/7e range overhauls). Not everything gets an update every generation, but there's been one plastic Guardian kit and about four generations of Tactical Squad kits in the same period.

Yeah... If I'm not mistaken, the number of primaris lieutenants is more than double the number of phoenix lords. They could have used less than half of those primaris lieutenant releases to update all of our 2nd edition phoenix lord models.

Look. All ill say is that 3rd party companies continue to make absolutely jaw dropping gorgeous sculpt from the most boring of guardians to mad looking phoenix lords.

And people are buying. Because why else would companies do this?

The demand is there... as to why GW is absolutely refusing to do this is anyones guess. I wouldint be too upset if we lost yriel and illic and gained a spiders and shining spears lords as new sculpts and new characters. Not to mention to bring all the embarrasingly old failcast aspects into plastic.

Id be on board to see some FW stuff getting plastic treatment. Maybe a new veriation of hornet to take over for the vyper as light vehicle.

Oh... and above all else. Please make bone singers a thing again. Thats an entire side of eldar stuff that never gets covered enough...

Yep Artel makes wonderful eldar models.

I've got a bonesinger model. I recall it having decent rules in 8th, well, decent for a fluffy unit. It went to Legends since then and it may have been hit with the nerf bat on the way out, but I don't recall much about it besides healing my Wraithlords as they trudged up the battlefield.

Not to detract from the point that there are tons of plastic Tac Marines and Primaris Lieutenants but there are technically 2 sets of Plastic Guardians. Everyone is familiar with the kit from 3rd but there were also plastic guardians from 2nd.

I think someone might have brought this up already but my best guess with regards to the negligence of all 3 Eldar ranges is that they were supposed to be uniting under Ynnari. I strongly suspect that 40k was supposed to be going the way of AoS (with Primaris replacing Marines) but after AoS' reception GW backtracked at the last minute.

I think they then ended up with no clue about what to do with Eldar (or DE or Harlequins), as all their ideas presumably revolved around making them into a single Ynnari army. So now we're basically stuck treading water as GW either tries to figure out what to do with the Eldar factions instead or else delays the Ynnari releases until it regains the courage to pull the AoS it had previously planned.

(Not that this is a defence for GW - it's still bloody awful to leave factions in this state. Just I'm pretty certain that's what happened.)

Hell, one of the weird things in 9th was GW constantly referencing Ynnari in 8th yet releasing no models for them and putting no effort into their rules.

Anyone remember all the hype for Blood of the Phoenix? How the Banshees would have different options for those that walked the path of Ynnari. People were speculating about what that could mean and then the rules dropped and the answer was . . . absolutely nothing. It amounted to some bare heads on the models and not even the briefest mention in either the Eldar rules or the Ynnari ones.

I suppose I'm marginally curious to see the Eldar and Ynnari rules in 9th to see if there's any hint that GW are/were actually building to something or whether the marketing executive and the rules writer just weren't speaking that day.

 harlokin wrote:
That would be great....something like:

New plastic Baharroth and Swooping Hawks vs new Baron Sathonyx and (old) Hellions
New plastic Karandras and Striking Scorpions vs new plastic Kheradruakh the Decapitator and Mandrakes
New plastic Fuegan and Fire Dragons vs new plastic Urien Rakarth and Grotesques

I get where you're coming from but I'm honestly sick of everything revolving around sodding special characters.

This format might work for Eldar (given the nature of their aspects and the fact that their Phoenix Lords are almost all badly out of date) but for DE I'd far rather see new generic characters, as opposed to new special characters just to mirror the Eldar.

Maybe I'm in the minority but one of the things that originally drew me to 40k was the emphasis on 'your dudes'. Also just from a pragmatic standpoint we're already severely options - so I don't want to see yet more HQs with 0 options.

If I'm running a Mandrake army, I want Kheradruakh to be an option - not the only Mandrake HQ in the codex.
If I want a mobile HQ for whatever reason, I want Baron Sathonyx to be an option - not the only Skyboard HQ in the codex.
etc.


Out of interest, how do Eldar players feel about this sort of thing? For example, would you want to be able to make Autarchs effectively HQ-Exarchs for Aspect Warriors, or would you just want to take a Phoenix Lord for that role?

 vipoid wrote:
I think someone might have brought this up already but my best guess with regards to the negligence of all 3 Eldar ranges is that they were supposed to be uniting under Ynnari. I strongly suspect that 40k was supposed to be going the way of AoS (with Primaris replacing Marines) but after AoS' reception GW backtracked at the last minute.

I think they then ended up with no clue about what to do with Eldar (or DE or Harlequins), as all their ideas presumably revolved around making them into a single Ynnari army. So now we're basically stuck treading water as GW either tries to figure out what to do with the Eldar factions instead or else delays the Ynnari releases until it regains the courage to pull the AoS it had previously planned.

I've heard this one as well. The rumor mill at the time was that the new CEO caught wind of this plan and pulled the plug on it since blowing up a well-liked faction doesn't do well for sales.

I like Ynnari, but if you told me they are the only option and CWE are gone I'd be an unhappy customer. I think you're absolutely correct that they are treading water figuring out what to do with Eldar, my guess is we'll see either a refresh or a consolidation in 2022. In the meantime Given how long the flash to bang is with their design to production process I wouldn't be surprised if Exodites were planned out as the next thing after the Ynnari merge and since it was already in the works it'll be the next thing that we the customer see.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:

 vipoid wrote:
I think someone might have brought this up already but my best guess with regards to the negligence of all 3 Eldar ranges is that they were supposed to be uniting under Ynnari. I strongly suspect that 40k was supposed to be going the way of AoS (with Primaris replacing Marines) but after AoS' reception GW backtracked at the last minute.

I think they then ended up with no clue about what to do with Eldar (or DE or Harlequins), as all their ideas presumably revolved around making them into a single Ynnari army. So now we're basically stuck treading water as GW either tries to figure out what to do with the Eldar factions instead or else delays the Ynnari releases until it regains the courage to pull the AoS it had previously planned.

I've heard this one as well. The rumor mill at the time was that the new CEO caught wind of this plan and pulled the plug on it since blowing up a well-liked faction doesn't do well for sales.

I like Ynnari, but if you told me they are the old option and CWE are gone I'd be an unhappy customer. I think you're absolutely correct that they are treading water figuring out what to do with Eldar, my guess is we'll see either a refresh or a consolidation in 2022. In the meantime Given how long the flash to bang is with their design to production process I wouldn't be surprised if Exodites were planned out as the next thing after the Ynnari merge and since it was already in the works it'll be the next thing that we the customer see.

I don't mind diversity in the Eldar range, since there are already so many human factions. I found the diversity of Eldar viewpoints on how to survive, with the Ynnari being the newest, more interesting than the stereotypical simplistic Imperial (good) vs Chaos (evil) dichotomy. Yes yes I know the Imperium isn't good but for a newcomer, it would be easy to fall into that viewpoint with how it is portrayed versus Chaos.

The issue with the Ynnari is they need some models that are not special characters. Their rank and file should not be scavenging from other army lists, and they need some more generic characters.

 Sarigar wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
With the upcoming Exodite movie and the recently revealed Beast Snaggas for Orks I wouldn't be surprised if they drop some Exodite kits in the future.

I look forward to the CWE tears when eldar get an entire new faction and they're still using 25 year old finecast kits........ (actually I really don't)

And the people who get super-offended when the old folks accuse GW of "replacing" their old armies with a different army they don't like instead of making their stuff work/doing better resculpts will all explode.

Except that GW isn't 'replacing' orks with Beast Snaggaz in any way.

I don't like Beast Snaggas - but hey, I get a new plastic painboy with a mobility option, I get a new plastic weirdboy, i get a new plastic mega-armored warboss, and I get new boyz. And that might not even be all of it!

Replacing is not the write choice of words. One can still play first born Marines, but the differences in utility between first born and primaris are significant. I just played a few games against a first born Ultramarine army and my opponent lamented how many stratagems don't apply to them, less AP for shooting, less attacks in assault, etc...

You can still utilize the old models, but the rules are being written with an emphasis on the newer models.

This is a bit of a fear I have about an upcoming Craftworld book; GW creates several entirely new units with solid rules and does not update a lot of outdated models with most of their rules being 'meh'. I'll admit that I will be one of the folks who will buy them, but that will be a bit of a let down as I've got nearly 20,000 points of fully painted Craftworld models. Time will tell.

Right, just like they did with the Drukhari, whose one new model is absolute ass and all the original stuff from their release in 5e is amazing. or Admech, where units from the very first Skitarii wave are the best units they have.

But yeah, you certainly never see any firstborn units in competitive marine lists. They're definitely not usually entirely firstborn save for the min 5-man troop squads of intercessors.

Agreed, I like the Ynnari faction and I find their plan for the survival of the Eldar race to be an interesting take.

Having some units unique to them would be good but given how poorly the last Ynnari book sold (oh look Gav Thorpe wrote an Eldar book where the Eldar get ruined, surprise) I don't think we'll see movement on Ynnari for some time.

vipoid brings up a good point though. If GW backtracked on consolidating Eldar and DE at the last minute it makes you wonder how far along in the production process future Ynnari units had gotten before the decision to pull back was made.

 vipoid wrote:

I think you pretty much nailed it.

Never saw the appeal of mixing Eldar into a single faction personally.

There was a period when GW was doing some wonky thinking that was clearly aiming for max profit minimal investment. Combining Eldar into one force; adding Primaris instead of replacing marine sculpts; making knights an army of their own along with assassins (I note GW stepped back from one of those and in all honestly the knights has sort of worked).

And also cutting Bretonnia, Tomb Kings and such.



I think it was a bunch of movements and choices GW made based purely upon sales data and no consumer feedback. It's choices made on a snapshot of sales information without taking into account the context of those sales patterns. That some armies were selling badly because they were badly supported by GW in terms of models and/or rules. That some things were selling well but not because everything was them etc...


I think GW today wouldn't have made those same choices, though they are operating in an environment where those choices were made and they have to live with the fallout from them. I'm honestly glad that we've moved on from those times and that GW today seems to take a more balanced approach between the financial side and the hobby consumer side

 the_scotsman wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:

 the_scotsman wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
With the upcoming Exodite movie and the recently revealed Beast Snaggas for Orks I wouldn't be surprised if they drop some Exodite kits in the future.

I look forward to the CWE tears when eldar get an entire new faction and they're still using 25 year old finecast kits........ (actually I really don't)

And the people who get super-offended when the old folks accuse GW of "replacing" their old armies with a different army they don't like instead of making their stuff work/doing better resculpts will all explode.

Except that GW isn't 'replacing' orks with Beast Snaggaz in any way.

I don't like Beast Snaggas - but hey, I get a new plastic painboy with a mobility option, I get a new plastic weirdboy, i get a new plastic mega-armored warboss, and I get new boyz. And that might not even be all of it!

Replacing is not the write choice of words. One can still play first born Marines, but the differences in utility between first born and primaris are significant. I just played a few games against a first born Ultramarine army and my opponent lamented how many stratagems don't apply to them, less AP for shooting, less attacks in assault, etc...

You can still utilize the old models, but the rules are being written with an emphasis on the newer models.

This is a bit of a fear I have about an upcoming Craftworld book; GW creates several entirely new units with solid rules and does not update a lot of outdated models with most of their rules being 'meh'. I'll admit that I will be one of the folks who will buy them, but that will be a bit of a let down as I've got nearly 20,000 points of fully painted Craftworld models. Time will tell.

Right, just like they did with the Drukhari, whose one new model is absolute ass and all the original stuff from their release in 5e is amazing. or Admech, where units from the very first Skitarii wave are the best units they have.

But yeah, you certainly never see any firstborn units in competitive marine lists. They're definitely not usually entirely firstborn save for the min 5-man troop squads of intercessors.

I genuinely don't understand what you are stating.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Agreed, I like the Ynnari faction and I find their plan for the survival of the Eldar race to be an interesting take.

Having some units unique to them would be good but given how poorly the last Ynnari book sold (oh look Gav Thorpe wrote an Eldar book where the Eldar get ruined, surprise) I don't think we'll see movement on Ynnari for some time.

vipoid brings up a good point though. If GW backtracked on consolidating Eldar and DE at the last minute it makes you wonder how far along in the production process future Ynnari units had gotten before the decision to pull back was made.

Well we know that a lot of lore was planed to go different, and that is why we have the bizzar situation of the indomitus crusade being not 200 years, but 12. Which with the number of worlds conquered and chapters created, ment something like one world taken per day and one full chapter created from zero in a week. I also read a bit of the pre 8th ed lore, as in the stuff that was in the codex and event books. And the stuff really looked like end times. SW for example, pre Cawl, should be have gone extinct, as their gene seed didn't work on non gene moded humans. Then the sm expansion books clearly show the total or near total destruction of a lot of core chapters. White Scars, Iron Hands etc were practically destroyed before the primaris reinforcments arrived. Same with BAs and their successor chapters after the whole tyranid thing. Then around mid 8th we kind of a stopped getting lore that progresses stuff. To then in 9th get the big lore changes to the new stuff. To someone more cynical it could look as if GW was planning a full reset of w40k, and then just before 8th dropped decided not to do it, but because lore was already writen and some books were ready to print, they had to readjust stuff. That is why some stuff like the eldar/inari lore was more or left hanging in a limbo. And the resolution of it is just laughable. Inari need those magical swords to save their race...and then the last sword is to the right of Slanesh, where no eldar can go, making the whole thing feel like the last seson of Game of Thrones.

I like the idea of the Ynnari, but the execution is awful.

It could be the ideal army for beginners who cannot decide between which of the three main factions they want to play, or for seasoned players who want to mix and match. Straight away - to my understanding - you cannot mix units in a detachment, so combat patrols will end up looking like a regular Craftworld, Drukhari or Harlequin army. Not much point, really...

Its supposed to be a big new faction in 40K - so big that its linked to the revival of the Ultramarines. Yet, its an after thought article in White Dwarf or an end of edition supplement. Either give'em their own codex with a selection of units from the other three factions( with their own rules and datasheets unique to Ynnari ) or slap'em in the back of the Harlequin codex which is looking very slim these days and could do with the extra content....

Kill Team would have been the perfect place for Ynnari, but GW couldn't be bothered to get out of bed for it. Seriously, they had the new banshee kit with Ynnari options to seal the deal. Could have easily have been an article in White Dwarf.

The Ynnari in execution felt like they where just poaching ideas from the other Eldar factions with so little effort.
Both in game and the lore, good ideas wasted.

I would rather the craft worlds get more proactive In the universe and a bit more grimdark, more purging of worlds to push against chaos and necrons and some dealings with the imperium.
Push them as ally’s to the imperium but a dangerous one that the imperium is weary off.

Dark Eldar needs to be opened up a bit, so the story’s can be more varied. Not to much I think, but a little bit.
And some more models selection :( it’s feeling a bit like they just losing stuff.

Harlequins can get some craftworld units with a twist as part of there faction. Give them a bit of variety to work with and show they do work very closely with the craftworlds. They can be used to seperate them narratively but still keep them themed close to the craftworlds like they should be.

The best way forward, ignoring all other things, would be to "kill" CWE and transition them to wraith-focused force, and have fleshy elves be replaced by exodites as the new, re-emergent eldar. Plenty of options for new kit, and zero risk of a) offending existing players because the new Aspect Warriors don't look the same as the old ones
b) not selling enough because the new kits do look like the old ones so why upgrade.

Ynnari lore is as if someone was given the vague plot threads GW had put out for the last decade or two, came up with a synthesis of them, and then did nothing to tie them back to those threads. As a result it just sort of appears. Its not entirely alien, but it doesn't tie back in a satisfying way, instead we have rather desperate attempts to bend faction fluff towards it.

Which is sort of where we end up with the models. Yvraine is so obviously based on a description of Lady Malys - who wasn't obviously doing anything in the fluff - but I assume someone ran in shouting "remember the curse, we must not make new DE models". Or you could use Iyanna Arienal - but again I assume that prompted a "Who?"

Mechanically its even more of a failure. I think someone went: "CWE players only seem to buy Scatbikes, Wraithknights, Wave Serpents and maybe Warp Spiders. But we have all these assault units gathering dust. Wouldn't it be cool if we could create an alternate set of rules to encourage a close-in assault focused Eldar Army?"
"Yeah. Also DE and Harlequins kind of suck. So it would be cool if they could get involved too."

"Okay."
"Woops. We seem to have created a system that encourages shooting again. And maybe Shining Spears."

"Several. Years. Later."
"Okay just kill that, kill it completely. 8th's here anyway, we can give all the chapter tactics and make them increasingly powerful. So.. Uh... just make their's that they can get some rerolls in close combat or something, whatever bored now."

Cronch wrote:
The best way forward, ignoring all other things, would be to "kill" CWE and transition them to wraith-focused force, and have fleshy elves be replaced by exodites as the new, re-emergent eldar. Plenty of options for new kit, and zero risk of a) offending existing players because the new Aspect Warriors don't look the same as the old ones
b) not selling enough because the new kits do look like the old ones so why upgrade.

If anything GW has done everything to make the wraith focused craftworld quite redundant, and aspect warriors have lots of design space. Why would anyone thinking killing off half there market be a good idea.
They had there chance with banshees and they went low effort design, when they could use lots of new weapons. They are one of the best units for having mixed weapons units with some effort to rules >.< axes where a easy one, axes where right there.

But every aspect could get weapons expansions that are fun and engaging and be tied into the other parts of craftworlds with just a small amount of effort.

CWE have always had piss-poor internal balance. As a faction, they generally are always doing well, but what units get them there shift like the fickle elves themselves. Every codex is use the top 3-4 broken units, and ignore the rest. A meta chasing eldar player who never sold the old stuff probably has the complete range at this point. I think over time everything has had it’s moment in the sun. As well as the darkness.

Of course, sometimes the “meh” units still compare favorably with other books. But sometimes units just suck. I don’t have a big issue with inefficient units. They do their job, but they might just cost a little too much for what they do. It’s the ineffective units that get me. You look at a unit, like Howling Banshees, who’s job is to kill MEQ, and they just tickle them a little. (At least historically, not sure how they do with the new power swords, guessing still Meh)

Looking at the changes to the DE book, I have high hopes that CWE might do well. The big issue they have is rules creep. They are an army of specialists, who pay for that privilege, being outshone by generalists. Stat inflation has run rampant in other factions, but CWE remain stagnant. Marines have squad leaders with the same number of attacks as Phoenix lords.

Many of the tricks to help survivability have been nerfed or removed. Capping minus to hit and removing initiative. Eldar should be soft if you can land the hit, but getting the hit in should be hard. They need to figure out a way to get this back to the table.

Model range needs a huge revamp. Tons of finecast, and old plastics. Aesthetically, I love the look, and the new banshees show that they can retain the spirit of the old with the perks of the new. Now they just need to do that a dozen or so more times. Some of it is pretty low hanging fruit as well. Shining spears being just an extra sprue in the new bike kit.

Karol wrote:
To someone more cynical it could look as if GW was planning a full reset of w40k, and then just before 8th dropped decided not to do it, but because lore was already writen and some books were ready to print, they had to readjust stuff. That is why some stuff like the eldar/inari lore was more or left hanging in a limbo. And the resolution of it is just laughable. Inari need those magical swords to save their race...and then the last sword is to the right of Slanesh, where no eldar can go, making the whole thing feel like the last seson of Game of Thrones.

Yeah I think you nailed it. They planned on resetting both of their wargames, Warhammer Fantasy was the test run since it was a much smaller market share. After all the backlash they did a hard rudder on 40k so instead of the end times in gathering storm and beyond kind of petered out.

Last crone sword being with Slannesh was such a massive copout in that Ynnari book. The first Ynnari book saw Eldar actually succeed, which is a perpetual rarity in the novels, then the next book comes along and wipes out all the progress, has them defeated by an illusion of a Daemon and says you're princess is not only in another castle but the castle is a giant mimic and will eat your soul if you even go inside. As a result the book sold terribly, who would have thought taking an exciting new faction and making them beyond feeble wouldn't sell like hotcakes.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Yeah I think you nailed it. They planned on resetting both of their wargames, Warhammer Fantasy was the test run since it was a much smaller market share. After all the backlash they did a hard rudder on 40k so instead of the end times in gathering storm and beyond kind of petered out.

Hmmm. Difficult to say really.

I mean we have the 40k Retcon in 9th. We were meant to be 200~ years into the future and a lot of the fluff was supposed to be "what happened to the various factions over these years and what are they doing now". Psychic Awakening expanded on it a bit - but it was increasingly stilted. Potentially you could say this was AoS reaction - but I think its more just that GW is increasingly uncertain on writing fluff. They can't work out how to write a story where every faction is meant to be "up". I mean at a fundamental level, is the Imperium meant to be bleeding out due to the loss of Cadia and damage caused by the Great Rift? Or is it enjoying a Guilliman/Cawl-inspired renaissance not seen since the great crusade? "Why not both" doesn't really cut it.

Which is possibly why we've lurched back around 100 years, so we can say its all up in the air.
While we purge fluff from the Codexes.

Are we talking about models or ingame rules? From a modeling perspective, yes, the Eldar are not done justice. But on the tabletop they have over performed across multiple editions. I cant have sympathy in that regard.

Table wrote:
Are we talking about models or ingame rules? From a modeling perspective, yes, the Eldar are not done justice. But on the tabletop they have over performed across multiple editions. I cant have sympathy in that regard.

Rules-wise, they're not in a great spot right now. But yeah, the gist of the thread is far more about models and update pace, rather than tabletop functions.

Table wrote:
Are we talking about models or ingame rules? From a modeling perspective, yes, the Eldar are not done justice. But on the tabletop they have over performed across multiple editions. I cant have sympathy in that regard.

Rules-wise, they usually had 2-3 units that you had to spam to had any chance of victory because everything else was poorly thought out Swooping Hawks level of utility. That's not the same as having a well-written codex. If anything, it shows lack of care.

Indeed.

The Necron Codex is an example of them getting it pretty much right, with only one ostensibly duff unit, the Hexmark Destroyer. Even then it has its uses (just fewer than the other options).

Yes there are stronger builds you can make with it. But you can buy more or less what you want, field it as an army, and still have a chance of a decent game.

It’s been a long, long time since Eldar had that.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Indeed.

The Necron Codex is an example of them getting it pretty much right, with only one ostensibly duff unit, the Hexmark Destroyer. Even then it has its uses (just fewer than the other options).

Yes there are stronger builds you can make with it. But you can buy more or less what you want, field it as an army, and still have a chance of a decent game.

It’s been a long, long time since Eldar had that.

it seems to be something of a theme with most 9th edition codeices so let's hope that GW has managed it. I know space marines seems pretty solid as well. as does sisters of battle.

There will of course be certain lists considered better for tournament play where you want to place well.

But equally, if you’re going more to play new folk and for the fun of it, you can still make a decent showing with your “a little bit of what I fancy” list.

If they can carry this through all of 9th, it should be good for the game, as it’ll muddy the meta, as most lists will stand a chance against one another.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
There will of course be certain lists considered better for tournament play where you want to place well.

But equally, if you’re going more to play new folk and for the fun of it, you can still make a decent showing with your “a little bit of what I fancy” list.

If they can carry this through all of 9th, it should be good for the game, as it’ll muddy the meta, as most lists will stand a chance against one another.

agreed. we saw GW moving in this direction with the 8.5 codices (space marines and sisters) it's enchouraging that this trend is continuing. When the distinction between a "fluffy" and a "compeitive" list is absolutely minor thats good for EVERYONE

Tyel wrote:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Yeah I think you nailed it. They planned on resetting both of their wargames, Warhammer Fantasy was the test run since it was a much smaller market share. After all the backlash they did a hard rudder on 40k so instead of the end times in gathering storm and beyond kind of petered out.

Hmmm. Difficult to say really.

I mean we have the 40k Retcon in 9th. We were meant to be 200~ years into the future and a lot of the fluff was supposed to be "what happened to the various factions over these years and what are they doing now". Psychic Awakening expanded on it a bit - but it was increasingly stilted. Potentially you could say this was AoS reaction - but I think its more just that GW is increasingly uncertain on writing fluff. They can't work out how to write a story where every faction is meant to be "up". I mean at a fundamental level, is the Imperium meant to be bleeding out due to the loss of Cadia and damage caused by the Great Rift? Or is it enjoying a Guilliman/Cawl-inspired renaissance not seen since the great crusade? "Why not both" doesn't really cut it.

Which is possibly why we've lurched back around 100 years, so we can say its all up in the air.
While we purge fluff from the Codexes.

"Why not both" can work for the Imperium. Imperium Nihilus is bleeding out and perhaps breaking into pocket empires since communication and travel is so fragmented, even if Dante was supposedly appointed to deal with that side of the Imperium. Meanwhile Guilliman runs around putting out fires, but the renaissance is skin deep with ongoing issues that may boil over such as his decreasing opposition to the Ecclesiarchy (all ostensibly in the name of not provoking further internal conflict) and uncertainty within himself about whether the Emperor has now become a god.