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I know, I'm saying what they're supposed to be in concept, not what they've been dragged down to by GW robbing them for ideas for other factions.

Cronch wrote:
I know, I'm saying what they're supposed to be in concept, not what they've been dragged down to by GW robbing them for ideas for other factions.

I doubt GW are going to restore all those niches back to the Craftworlds as that would now rob those factions of their specialties. So given that...what can be done with Craftworld Eldar?

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
And Speesh Marine dun stole guide and doom so space elf wizarding is mehh bar MW barrages

Yes. That's also one of the reasons why I thought of the idea of these Fate dice as a thematic thing to lean on the mystic/psychic theme, as it seems to be one of the few things the Craftworld Eldar still have, even though that too is being eroded. They know to sidestep that melee blow as they have seen it before you even decided to strike, and they have butterfly effected that sniper so that he misses that shot by hesitating that fraction of a second longer.

Cronch wrote:
I know, I'm saying what they're supposed to be in concept, not what they've been dragged down to by GW robbing them for ideas for other factions.

I think you'll find them Blood Ravens just 'found' that Serpent Shield generator and 'researched' sticking on dreadnaughts

Iracundus wrote:

Cronch wrote:
I know, I'm saying what they're supposed to be in concept, not what they've been dragged down to by GW robbing them for ideas for other factions.

I doubt GW are going to restore all those niches back to the Craftworlds as that would now rob those factions of their specialties. So given that...what can be done with Craftworld Eldar?

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
And Speesh Marine dun stole guide and doom so space elf wizarding is mehh bar MW barrages

Yes. That's also one of the reasons why I thought of the idea of these Fate dice as a thematic thing to lean on the mystic/psychic theme, as it seems to be one of the few things the Craftworld Eldar still have, even though that too is being eroded. They know to sidestep that melee blow as they have seen it before you even decided to strike, and they have butterfly effected that sniper so that he misses that shot by hesitating that fraction of a second longer.

how did space marines "steal" doom and guide? you're refering to re-roll auras? Marines are hardly the only armies with re-roll auras. and Eldar can direct their entire army at a target with re-rolls much easier then marines (marines can spread it acros other targets. other all I'd not argue one is better then others as it's honestly situational, Marines are better when you're moving in a blob or just wanna augment stuff, doom is better when you absolutely need to bring something down)

BrianDavion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

Cronch wrote:
I know, I'm saying what they're supposed to be in concept, not what they've been dragged down to by GW robbing them for ideas for other factions.

I doubt GW are going to restore all those niches back to the Craftworlds as that would now rob those factions of their specialties. So given that...what can be done with Craftworld Eldar?

 Turnip Jedi wrote:
And Speesh Marine dun stole guide and doom so space elf wizarding is mehh bar MW barrages

Yes. That's also one of the reasons why I thought of the idea of these Fate dice as a thematic thing to lean on the mystic/psychic theme, as it seems to be one of the few things the Craftworld Eldar still have, even though that too is being eroded. They know to sidestep that melee blow as they have seen it before you even decided to strike, and they have butterfly effected that sniper so that he misses that shot by hesitating that fraction of a second longer.

how did space marines "steal" doom and guide? you're refering to re-roll auras? Marines are hardly the only armies with re-roll auras. and Eldar can direct their entire army at a target with re-rolls much easier then marines (marines can spread it acros other targets. other all I'd not argue one is better then others as it's honestly situational, Marines are better when you're moving in a blob or just wanna augment stuff, doom is better when you absolutely need to bring something down)

I wasn't the one that said doom and guide had been "stolen". However I would agree with the original statement. Way back in like 2nd and 3rd edition I heard it argued that Eldar had specialty/niche of the boosting augmenting powers whereas SM had less flexible more direct damage powers. Now SM have both kinds of powers available and can do both equally well. The Eldar are no longer the better psychic boosters.

Yeah. Kind of agree with the sentiment that dice rerolls used to kind of be an eldar "thing" that has now been passed out to most/all factions. Which probably isn't a bad thing, but it *is* yet another one of our unique things that's no longer unique. When I started playing in 5th, there weren't a ton of unit buffs/rerolls out there, but eldar could have their entire army buffed in one way or another.

I advocated fairly early on in the thread for Eldar to have ways to mess with opponent’s rolls.

It’s the best way I can think of to represent that when the Craftworlds go to war, it’s for a specific reason, and at Just The Right Time.

That is a core part of their background. They’re intervening to ensure a more favourable future for their Craftworld. And to be honest, Eldar should be a frustrating opponent to face. You know that if you can just catch them flat footed, you’ll punish them hard. But it’s getting your mitts on them that’s the problem.

And to be honest, it being a tricky thing to get Just Right in terms of rules is no reason for GW not to at least try.

The general feedback seemed to be discussion (and I must stress not arguing) about how it might be applied, and a general consensus that whilst a Farseer would offer greater flexibility, not fielding a Farseer should’ve cripple the mechanic.

I’m on board with that. To see an Eldar player be able to interfere with my rolls at crucial moments feels right to me. And the counter would be me setting up multiple strike opportunities against something I really want dead.

Example. Let’s say they have a finite pool of dice interference. These can be refreshed turn to turn, kind of like Command Points.

Each token/dice allows the Eldar player to swap any of my dice for a 1. Let’s say I’ve got, purely for demonstrations sake, a squad of Devastators with 4 Lascannons, and I’m gunning for a Wraithknight. The Eldar player has 4 Fate Dice to hand. Only one can be applied to any one roll of the dice.

I roll to hit. I get 2, 3, 5 and 6. Eldar player expends one fate dice, to force another miss.

Next, I roll my two To Wounds. I get a 4 and a 6. Not having any of that, the Eldar player again forced another failure.

He fails his save, and I roll for damage. Needing that Wraithknight as unharmed as possible, the Eldar player ensures it’s just 1 Damage taken, leaving him with one more Fate Dice for this turn,

Overall, pretty potent, especially if the rules allow the decision to expend until after the dice are rolled.

Various ways to tinker with that basic idea, from having to declare before I roll (potentially risking wastage if my dice are misbehaving), to a Farseer’s presence allowing two to be applied to a single roll, once per turn. Perhaps 6’s can’t be altered, representing the gate of fate swings both ways.

Whichever way you butter it, it ensures the opponent needs to adapt, and can’t rely on Jammy Hail Mary, One In A Million Shots. Really depends on how crunchy we fancy it.

The Fate Dice being a bunch of D3 determined negatives to enemy rolls is another possibility (so if you generate 4 fate dice a turn, start of your player turn roll that many D3, set them aside. These can then be deployed as modifiers to specific rolls I make.)

Well actually my idea was more of a mirror to Miracle dice, and while enabling the Farseer to be valuable in that respect to influencing fate, still have the Autarch be a viable choice. So my idea was 1 Fate die per turn, rolled just like Miracle dice so you could get rolls of 3 or 4 so it's not always necessarily 1 and therefore total failure. I am mindful of the potential for exploding plasma weapons all over if they were all 1's, just as Miracle dice can trigger effects on 6's. This base 1 die per turn is regardless of whether Farseer is present or not, as it can be assumed the Autarch would still have been informed of what the fates have in store and take actions to bring about the forecast fate. Farseers can have a psychic power to generate new Fate dice or re-roll an existing one.

I would even say have Miracle dice take precedence over Fate dice, to represent the power of faith and the Emperor overruling fate or attempts to twist fate. So used Miracle die result cannot be modified. However since only one Miracle die per phase, and 1 Fate die per phase, then both sides could try shifting different dice.

Anyway, the idea was sort of to achieve like in previous editions things like holofield rules in Epic 2nd edition or like in BFG: The Eldar are very good at avoidance of specific pinpoint attacks but a barrage of fire or attacks that require little/no targeting overwhelm them through sheer volume of fire or simply area of effect. A limited dice pool would be good at negating low volume high Damage attacks, but the Eldar player would either be burning through all their dice negating high volume attacks (like Matrix bullet time) dodging) or have to risk letting some get through to conserve their dice pool.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I advocated fairly early on in the thread for Eldar to have ways to mess with opponent’s rolls.

I'd be careful with that.

Long time ago our group did our own Codices, and one of the abilities we created was called Skeins of Fate. Basically they were kinda like Miracle Dice - roll the dice, that's the score you can substitute. Thing is, you could substitute enemy rolls as well as your own. Nothing sucks more than just having everything you've rolled hard nope'd out of existence because your opponent rolled some 1's for a dice pool at the start of the game. After a few test games it got changed to your own rolls.

Replacing your own dice, fine. Replacing your opponents, that's not fun.

Again we have gone on about this already. That is equivalent to someone with really good luck rolling 6's all the time for their Miracle dice. That would allow for multiple auto 6++ saves, which could be viewed as hard nope to opponent attacks. Forcing complete negation of damage due to a 6++ is the same as forcing a 1 on a to-hit roll for someone with BS 2+ (for purposes of this example, the firer has nothing that triggers on a 1).

statistically the same and emotionally/feeling the same are not the same thing.

 kirotheavenger wrote:
statistically the same and emotionally/feeling the same are not the same thing.

They are. It is only the illusion of difference and that is misleading.

The rules already have many ways of affecting the opponent's rolls, from modifiers to forced re-rolls of successes, to forcing additional dice and pick the worst, to affecting things like the characteristics like Strength or Toughness directly which effectively modify the roll.

It's strange how long this dice manipulation conversation has gone without it being brought up that Sisters need a 6 for Acts of Faith to save them from a melta shot but the theoretical Eldar rule would be able to stop the wound with a 1, 2, or 3. The number of usable rolls you get is much larger.

 Arachnofiend wrote:
It's strange how long this dice manipulation conversation has gone without it being brought up that Sisters need a 6 for Acts of Faith to save them from a melta shot but the theoretical Eldar rule would be able to stop the wound with a 1, 2, or 3. The number of usable rolls you get is much larger.

Larger number of those dice on defense, yes. However SoB can use more rolls on offense since they can modify their to-hits, to-wounds, and Damage rolls. So Miracle and Fate dice would sort of mirror each other with one being more offensive and the other more defensive.

The Imperial Creed values destroying the enemy and self-sacrifice. The Eldar value preventing Eldar casualties.

Iracundus wrote:

 kirotheavenger wrote:
statistically the same and emotionally/feeling the same are not the same thing.

They are. It is only the illusion of difference and that is misleading.

The rules already have many ways of affecting the opponent's rolls, from modifiers to forced re-rolls of successes, to forcing additional dice and pick the worst, to affecting things like the characteristics like Strength or Toughness directly which effectively modify the roll.

Here's the big differance. When I roll mircle die, I ROLL THE DICE. and I then use those dice for my own rolls.

This gets into the psychology of gaming (as others have said Math isn't the only factor here) the reasons why games of chance are fun and enjoyable is because oif the feelings of sucess we get when we roll well. during the lead up to a sucess, partiuclarly when the outcome is uncertain our brain releases a rush of Dopamines, the pleasure center of our brain. having the ability for your opponent to give you bad rolls, would short circuit that.

No different from a 6 Miracle diee making a 6++ automatically successful and short circuiting the chain of rolls for a killing blow. The opponent has just stopped your pleasurable series of rolls cold.

Iracundus wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
It's strange how long this dice manipulation conversation has gone without it being brought up that Sisters need a 6 for Acts of Faith to save them from a melta shot but the theoretical Eldar rule would be able to stop the wound with a 1, 2, or 3. The number of usable rolls you get is much larger.

Larger number of those dice on defense, yes. However SoB can use more rolls on offense since they can modify their to-hits, to-wounds, and Damage rolls. So Miracle and Fate dice would sort of mirror each other with one being more offensive and the other more defensive.

That's incorrect. Eldar could also use mid-range dice to ignore invuln saves with high AP fire. I'm sure it'll feel very cool and fair to just never get your save on something an eldar player wants to kill.

 Arachnofiend wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Arachnofiend wrote:
It's strange how long this dice manipulation conversation has gone without it being brought up that Sisters need a 6 for Acts of Faith to save them from a melta shot but the theoretical Eldar rule would be able to stop the wound with a 1, 2, or 3. The number of usable rolls you get is much larger.

Larger number of those dice on defense, yes. However SoB can use more rolls on offense since they can modify their to-hits, to-wounds, and Damage rolls. So Miracle and Fate dice would sort of mirror each other with one being more offensive and the other more defensive.

That's incorrect. Eldar could also use mid-range dice to ignore invuln saves with high AP fire. I'm sure it'll feel very cool and fair to just never get your save on something an eldar player wants to kill.

Considering there are now ways for other factions to ignore invulnerable saves, and the SoB are just the latest, I don't see what the problem is so long as the effect was still limited in availability/frequency.

Iracundus wrote:
No different from a 6 Miracle diee making a 6++ automatically successful and short circuiting the chain of rolls for a killing blow. The opponent has just stopped your pleasurable series of rolls cold.

yet again the differance is *IVE already rolled that 6*
you aren't rolling for me.

BrianDavion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
No different from a 6 Miracle diee making a 6++ automatically successful and short circuiting the chain of rolls for a killing blow. The opponent has just stopped your pleasurable series of rolls cold.

yet again the differance is *IVE already rolled that 6*
you aren't rolling for me.

And the opponent has just stopped it cold without even having to roll their save with a chance of failure. Dopamaine junkie on a roll is stopped in their tracks with 100% certainty. Their 6 to-wound roll then means nothing (again ignoring any triggered rules of 6's). That is the same hard nope that you were objecting to before.

Yet people have played knowing that a SoB player with a 6 Miracle die can pull that feat. They just know they cannot rely on a single attack to do the job because then that 6 will be used. They have to plan around more attacks.

It would be the same if it came to Fate dice Don't count on that single shot lascannon getting the hit if you know they have a 1 Fate die. Plan on more shots needed. Alternatively use that lascannon and force them to expend that die so they cannot use it later against the real threat.

Iracundus wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
No different from a 6 Miracle diee making a 6++ automatically successful and short circuiting the chain of rolls for a killing blow. The opponent has just stopped your pleasurable series of rolls cold.

yet again the differance is *IVE already rolled that 6*
you aren't rolling for me.

And the opponent has just stopped it cold without even having to roll their save with a chance of failure. Dopamaine junkie on a roll is stopped in their tracks. Their 6 to-wound roll then means nothing (again ignoring any triggered rules of 6's).

Yet people have played knowing that a SoB player with a 6 Miracle die can pull that feat. They just know they cannot rely on a single attack to do the job because then that 6 will be used. They have to plan around more attacks.

It would be the same if it came to Fate dice Don't count on that single shot lascannon getting the hit if you know they have a 1 Fate die. Plan on more shots needed. Alternatively use that lascannon and force them to expend that die so they cannot use it later against the real threat.

yet again the differance is you're not rolling for me. seriously, do you not understand why that might be a differance? I don't object to the idea of fething with peoples dice rolls but a better way to do it would be "roll 2 dice, take the worst" (you could then also have that one apply to a buff, of "roll 2 dice, take the best")

also as others noted, it's a lot easier to get a dice that'll fail a roll then it is to be sitting on a dice that'll allow you to suceed at a "hail mary"

BrianDavion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
No different from a 6 Miracle diee making a 6++ automatically successful and short circuiting the chain of rolls for a killing blow. The opponent has just stopped your pleasurable series of rolls cold.

yet again the differance is *IVE already rolled that 6*
you aren't rolling for me.

And the opponent has just stopped it cold without even having to roll their save with a chance of failure. Dopamaine junkie on a roll is stopped in their tracks. Their 6 to-wound roll then means nothing (again ignoring any triggered rules of 6's).

Yet people have played knowing that a SoB player with a 6 Miracle die can pull that feat. They just know they cannot rely on a single attack to do the job because then that 6 will be used. They have to plan around more attacks.

It would be the same if it came to Fate dice Don't count on that single shot lascannon getting the hit if you know they have a 1 Fate die. Plan on more shots needed. Alternatively use that lascannon and force them to expend that die so they cannot use it later against the real threat.

yet again the differance is you're not rolling for me. seriously, do you not understand why that might be a differance? I don't object to the idea of fething with peoples dice rolls but a better way to do it would be "roll 2 dice, take the worst" (you could then also have that one apply to a buff, of "roll 2 dice, take the best")

Making them roll 2 dice and take the worst is messing with their rolls, just as forcing them to re-roll successes is messing with their rolls ("I just turned your success into failure"). 40K is full of different ways to mess with other people's rolls as I have already listed earlier. If those are acceptable, and clearly they seem to be as they have been in the game for a long time now, a Fate die mechanic would just be one more and no different in kind. The only difference is that it can give a certain result instead of a variable result as with a re-roll, but that certainty of result is already a thing with Miracle dice.

Iracundus wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:
No different from a 6 Miracle diee making a 6++ automatically successful and short circuiting the chain of rolls for a killing blow. The opponent has just stopped your pleasurable series of rolls cold.

yet again the differance is *IVE already rolled that 6*
you aren't rolling for me.

And the opponent has just stopped it cold without even having to roll their save with a chance of failure. Dopamaine junkie on a roll is stopped in their tracks. Their 6 to-wound roll then means nothing (again ignoring any triggered rules of 6's).

Yet people have played knowing that a SoB player with a 6 Miracle die can pull that feat. They just know they cannot rely on a single attack to do the job because then that 6 will be used. They have to plan around more attacks.

It would be the same if it came to Fate dice Don't count on that single shot lascannon getting the hit if you know they have a 1 Fate die. Plan on more shots needed. Alternatively use that lascannon and force them to expend that die so they cannot use it later against the real threat.

yet again the differance is you're not rolling for me. seriously, do you not understand why that might be a differance? I don't object to the idea of fething with peoples dice rolls but a better way to do it would be "roll 2 dice, take the worst" (you could then also have that one apply to a buff, of "roll 2 dice, take the best")

Making them roll 2 dice and take the worst is messing with their rolls, just as forcing them to re-roll successes is messing with their rolls ("I just turned your success into failure"). 40K is full of different ways to mess with other people's rolls as I have already listed earlier. If those are acceptable, and clearly they seem to be as they have been in the game for a long time now, a Fate die mechanic would just be one more and no different in kind. The only difference is that it can give a certain result instead of a variable result as with a re-roll, but that certainty of result is already a thing with Miracle dice.

except I can still roll 2 6s with a "roll 2 take worst" and suceed despite you.

BrianDavion wrote:

except I can still roll 2 6s with a "roll 2 take worst" and suceed despite you.

Yes, which is why a re-roll successes effect would be a less powerful effect than dictating the result of a die. Sam rationale for Miracle dice. Previously in past editions Acts of Faith for SoB allowed for re-rolls but that was a weak effect if it was a low probability thing like a 6++. The certainty of the Miracle dice mechanic in being able to achieve that low probability event when you most need it is what makes it a powerful mechanic and boosts the SoB.

That is why certain results like Miracle or Fate dice should be ranked as more valuable than re-rolls, and hence be rarer than re-rolls or more tightly restricted in the number of targets affected. Miracle dice replace a single die in a single phase. It's not something like re-roll all your successful to-hit rolls. More tightly focused but powerful effect.

Would it be more acceptable to go for a dice 'nudge' instead? So you can only change the result of a die by 1, turning a shot that just hit your important thing to one that just missed? Or turn a just about failed invulnerable save on your character to one that just about succeeded?

I concede that it's still messing with your opponents dice but it would be far more limited than a straight substitution.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I advocated fairly early on in the thread for Eldar to have ways to mess with opponent’s rolls.

I'd be careful with that.

Long time ago our group did our own Codices, and one of the abilities we created was called Skeins of Fate. Basically they were kinda like Miracle Dice - roll the dice, that's the score you can substitute. Thing is, you could substitute enemy rolls as well as your own. Nothing sucks more than just having everything you've rolled hard nope'd out of existence because your opponent rolled some 1's for a dice pool at the start of the game. After a few test games it got changed to your own rolls.

Replacing your own dice, fine. Replacing your opponents, that's not fun.

All about how many times they can do it, I guess.

 Tarvitz77 wrote:
Would it be more acceptable to go for a dice 'nudge' instead? So you can only change the result of a die by 1, turning a shot that just hit your important thing to one that just missed? Or turn a just about failed invulnerable save on your character to one that just about succeeded?

I concede that it's still messing with your opponents dice but it would be far more limited than a straight substitution.

Then that would be far far weaker than Miracle dice. Again, why penalize the xenos faction that is already suffering from fragility and lack of theme for several editions?

The Eldar need something to mitigate or negate damage, because T3 W1 just evaporates.

Iracundus wrote:

 Tarvitz77 wrote:
Would it be more acceptable to go for a dice 'nudge' instead? So you can only change the result of a die by 1, turning a shot that just hit your important thing to one that just missed? Or turn a just about failed invulnerable save on your character to one that just about succeeded?

I concede that it's still messing with your opponents dice but it would be far more limited than a straight substitution.

Then that would be far far weaker than Miracle dice. Again, why penalize the xenos faction that is already suffering from fragility and lack of theme for several editions?

The Eldar need something to mitigate or negate damage, because T3 W1 just evaporates.

because messing with your opponents dice SHOULD be weaker.

seriously, What part of this don't you get? with mircle dice, the dice poll is all stuff I have already rolled. it's effectively allowing me to keep some rolls I made before the game started in reserve for a critical situation. your fate pool would amount to you rolling my dice for me.

BrianDavion wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

 Tarvitz77 wrote:
Would it be more acceptable to go for a dice 'nudge' instead? So you can only change the result of a die by 1, turning a shot that just hit your important thing to one that just missed? Or turn a just about failed invulnerable save on your character to one that just about succeeded?

I concede that it's still messing with your opponents dice but it would be far more limited than a straight substitution.

Then that would be far far weaker than Miracle dice. Again, why penalize the xenos faction that is already suffering from fragility and lack of theme for several editions?

The Eldar need something to mitigate or negate damage, because T3 W1 just evaporates.

because messing with your opponents dice SHOULD be weaker.

seriously, What part of this don't you get? with mircle dice, the dice poll is all stuff I have already rolled. it's effectively allowing me to keep some rolls I made before the game started in reserve for a critical situation. your fate pool would amount to you rolling my dice for me.

No reason why affecting the opponent's dice should be weaker. There are plenty of effects that mess with the opponent's characteristics and rolls already. An equivalent effect should have equivalent strength, otherwise you just create and underpowered mechanic.

Uncertainty is less valuable than certainty. That is why re-rolls of any sort are less valuable than a certain result, and why things that have uncertainty such as stock options have value to those that want to rid themselves of that uncertainty and those that are willing to bear the risk.

GW has many re-rolls affecting whole units. So they sort of balance out the uncertainty by affecting more targets.

In 2nd edition, the Eldar Guide psychic power worked differently. Instead of giving re-rolls for one unit's shooting, it targeted 1 model's ranged weapon which then auto-hit. However if anything it was a weak power in 2nd edition. It was an example perhaps of GW overbalancing and leading to weakness because they over-valued in that instance the value of the certain hit. The reason was because there was such a preponderance of saves and layered saves that hitting with 1 weapon, even a heavy weapon, was often not worth the hassle of using a psychic power and risking your psyker's brain. Hitting was not so much the problem in 2nd edition as getting past saves. However it shows that to some extent at least GW was aware of the different values of a certain result vs. an uncertain re-roll.

The Eldar need a powerful damage mitigation mechanic because with the current rules T3 W1 just doesn't cut it. Even a single dodge save just doesn't stop enough damage. Wraith units may play the traditional Toughness and armor save game, but living Eldar need something, and if they remain at T3 W1 then whatever it is, needs to be powerful enough to keep them alive. The Banshee Exarch power Graceful Avoidance with its 5+++ to melee is sort of an admission of that. Though a 5+++ also has its own logical inconsistencies, like why is it harder to gracefully avoid a lumbering multi-Damage weapon than a single Damage weapon.

A counter-miracle dice for CWE would be cool, I agree. Don't forget though that we are talking about 7-8 dices affected per game. It will be strong and flavorful but if the aim is to somehow protect the T3 1W troops... look elsewhere, this is not what you are looking for.