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AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Andykp wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

Andykp wrote:
Then the plastic “monopose” boyz they replaced them with. Now that really is monopose. None of this is new and but this time we are better off, both kits are miles better than these and the older kit is still available.

I wasn't really into Orks back in the day, but weren't the metals also an option when that plastic set came out? Monopose, but I seem to recall there being something like 50 different poses.

Wasn't a fan of the Ork aesthetic back then, liked some of the whackiness but the models didn't do much for me. Didn't start collecting them until Gorkamorka and the rise of the gorilla aesthetic.

There were metal ones with plastic arms but you still have multiples of the same model really. The plastic boyz were the affordable way to have an ORK army back then. The metal and plastic boyz looked nothing alike. I spent most of my teenage years replacing my plastic stuff with metal just for third edition to invalidate the vast majority of my army.

The plastic goff boyz from 2nd edition were shocking. All goffs. Two parts, only “posable” bit was the pistol arm that could be attached a slightly different angle of rotation. Other wise all the same pose. Same with the Grots.

Maybe the ones I'm thinking of are older than that, I seem to recall several pages in one of the old catalogues dedicated to metal Boyz that did not have plastic arms, they were all metal and there were many different poses.

You’re right there was, the very first space ORK raiders. I forgot them as I never really got any of them, they were replaced by the metal/plastic ones really.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 NAVARRO wrote:

angryboy2k wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


Maybe the ones I'm thinking of are older than that, I seem to recall several pages in one of the old catalogues dedicated to metal Boyz that did not have plastic arms, they were all metal and there were many different poses.

There were dozens of orks in the Rogue Trader era. The idea that metal models meant a limited range wasn't true in those days. Even if many models were based on the same armatures there was still huge variety in the models available. Click "next" and have a browse.
http://www.solegends.com/citcat1991a/cat1991ap062orkbosses-02.htm

I miss metal models so much. Besides plastic designs are going monopose so yeah even less reasons to have plastic.

I thought I missed metal models too but then I got a steel legion army a few years ago and painted them up and it was horrible. Purely from a painting point of view the experience of getting the paint on the model, plastic for me is the king.

Well they're up for Pre-Order on the Oz site.

AUD$77 for the Boyz
AUD$98 for the Koptaz

Getting the Warboss, two sets of EZBuild Boyz, the Koptaz and a Deff Dread will set you back AUD$395. Buying the Combat Patrol from a discounter will cost you AUD$184. Yeah I'll take a 53% discount thanks...

Why wouldn't you buy the individual kits from the same discounter? Combat patrol is a lot cheaper, but seems like a false comparison to make things look worse than they are.

My points is more why would you buy the individual kits ever?

This is a Necron Warrior situation.

Someone's gotta defend the undefended corporation, I guess.

The AUD$165 price difference is completely reasonable, right? Right?

This is where we get a potential false economy. By which (because internets) I mean ‘a discount does not mean better value’

All the time you make use of the CP contents, do it. Buy that. No question, no doubt it’s the better price.

Beyond that? Maybe wait and see how the 2nd band market prices the gubbins you don’t want from that set, and go accordingly.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
This is where we get a potential false economy. By which (because internets) I mean ‘a discount does not mean better value’

All the time you make use of the CP contents, do it. Buy that. No question, no doubt it’s the better price.

Beyond that? Maybe wait and see how the 2nd band market prices the gubbins you don’t want from that set, and go accordingly.

Not really. The price difference is so big that even if you don't want everything in the combat patrol, its still better to buy it than the kits you do want separately, unless you seriously only want 1 or 2 things out of the box.

Even if you definitely don't want a warboss and deff dread, 2 boys boxes and the koptas (154+98) are still more than the combat patrol (230). You'd be daft to buy them separately, even before discounts, even if you just threw them the other kits in the trash afterwards.

Is boyz mobs even practical at this point though. I know a lot of people are making waves about not being able to make 30 boyz with the new kit without getting several kits but I thought with the new blast rules and that fielding 30 boyz was a thing of the past?

A lot of blast weapons aren't the terrors they seemed to be at the start of the edition. Most armies have better options from high ROF mid strength weapons.

With a few exceptions there arent a lot of armies that want to turn up with a pile of blast weapons.
at this point the idea of a guard player turning up with a loads of missile launchers or mortars is just kind of...cute.

Voss wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
This is where we get a potential false economy. By which (because internets) I mean ‘a discount does not mean better value’

All the time you make use of the CP contents, do it. Buy that. No question, no doubt it’s the better price.

Beyond that? Maybe wait and see how the 2nd band market prices the gubbins you don’t want from that set, and go accordingly.

Not really. The price difference is so big that even if you don't want everything in the combat patrol, its still better to buy it than the kits you do want separately, unless you seriously only want 1 or 2 things out of the box.

Even if you definitely don't want a warboss and deff dread, 2 boys boxes and the koptas (154+98) are still more than the combat patrol (230). You'd be daft to buy them separately, even before discounts, even if you just threw them the other kits in the trash afterwards.

Ignoring the false "buy individually direct from GW but bundle from a discounter", it's a 41% saving. I haven't looked at any of the other Combat Patrol sets to know if that's a good saving compared to what's typical.

I'm sure there'll be plenty of people who only want 1 or 2 things out of it. Given the amount of whinging about monopose, there's probably some people who don't want more than 1 box of the Boyz anyway. If you're just buying it for a Kill Team you might not care about all the other stuff. If you already have lots of Koptas and Dreads you might just buy the other stuff separately.

Of course you could just sell off the bits you don't want, but personally I tend to value my time more than my money and so I typically don't buy things to sell later (unless I can tee up someone locally to split it with beforehand or it's genuinely a decent amount of money I could make).




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Well they're up for Pre-Order on the Oz site.

AUD$77 for the Boyz

That's basically what we were expecting. That's the same price as the old Cadians repackaged with the new sprue, which is $45USD.

Voss wrote:
A lot of blast weapons aren't the terrors they seemed to be at the start of the edition. Most armies have better options from high ROF mid strength weapons.

With a few exceptions there arent a lot of armies that want to turn up with a pile of blast weapons.
at this point the idea of a guard player turning up with a loads of missile launchers or mortars is just kind of...cute.

The biggest effect of blasts on orks is running 10 boyz instead of 12 inside a trukk because a single blast will likely negate the extra two wounds you paint points for.

Ork's don't run units of 30 boyz because of morale, you fail morale so easily and lose so many models to attrition that bring such large units is just a waste of points.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
My points is more why would you buy the individual kits ever?

For most veterans, the box is not attractive at all.
Most veterans don't need boyz, because they have more than enough, because they are a bad unit these days and the set doesn't build into optimal load-outs anyways.
Most people have enough deff dreads, considering how often you got them as part of boxes and how many deals GW has done on them in the past (2-for-1 dread box, for example). They also realistically max out at 3, even if you could technically run 9.
Most people have AOBR koptas in masses, and the new load-out isn't that hot gamewise either (KMB were only ever popular as budget option).
The only real new model here is the warboss, and you only really need him once. But many ork armies don't need that kind of warboss, or are already using one of the other variants.

So many people will just want one or two kits out of that box. And while you could buy all of it and sell the rest, your time isn't free either.

The good news is that people will pick apart the combat patrol anyways and sell the parts for less than what GW is taking

angel of death 007 wrote:
Is boyz mobs even practical at this point though. I know a lot of people are making waves about not being able to make 30 boyz with the new kit without getting several kits but I thought with the new blast rules and that fielding 30 boyz was a thing of the past?

Forget 30. You can't build even 10 without being silly. You need 2 boxes to build choppa mob. 3 for shoota boy,

Good thing boys atm suck. Of course that's transitory as well

The MA Warboss is a nice model, but look at all the empty space on the sprue! Would it have killed them to give us some options? A PK and kombiweapon maybe, if you don't want the grot? At least give us some optional heads or klan iconography?

Lots of missed opportunity there.

 Oguhmek wrote:
The MA Warboss is a nice model, but look at all the empty space on the sprue! Would it have killed them to give us some options? A PK and kombiweapon maybe, if you don't want the grot? At least give us some optional heads or klan iconography?

Lots of missed opportunity there.

The lack of PK is intentional, I believe. Lots of scratch built/converted warbosses in mega armour around (I also have one!) but none with big choppa, as it wasn't legal if taken in combination with a mega armour. I think GW wanted to sell a model that was really something new for all players.

Sure was nice that GW made the MA boss and squig boss both cost the same.

Even though they're clearly priced differently in the UK, NZ, etc.

I guess its more convenient for the consumer if they just round that price up.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


it's a 41% saving. I haven't looked at any of the other Combat Patrol sets to know if that's a good saving compared to what's typical.

It's on the high end, might even be the highest percentage discount but if not it's very close.

angel of death 007 wrote:
Is boyz mobs even practical at this point though. I know a lot of people are making waves about not being able to make 30 boyz with the new kit without getting several kits but I thought with the new blast rules and that fielding 30 boyz was a thing of the past?

Are they practical in current day 9th edition? No. They lost a plethora of things.

NERFS:

Mob Rule. Went from # of models in the unit or nearby units = LD. New Mob rule, if a mob is nearby and above 50% you count as above 50%.

Large Mob buff: Lost +1 attack for 20+ Models

Lost Green Tide Stratagem: This one allowed you to bring a unit of boyz back to life so long as it had at least 1 model remaining. you could theoretically resurrect 203pts worth of boyz with this trick.

Fight Twice Stratagem: Can no longer fight twice.

Weirdboy Buffs: Weirdboy became less reliable so getting those important Da Jumps off is harder now.

Lost +1 to charge. In Evil Sunz you could get +1 to charge, this made deep striking boyz with Da Jump or "Teleporta" a reliable trick. Because it was also teamed with...

Changed "ere we go" special rule: Old Ere we go was you could pick to re-roll 1 or both dice. New Ere we go is you HAVE to re-roll both dice. Doesn't sound bad but think about it this way, if I roll a 6 and a 1, i could choose to re-roll the 1 and have a 66% chance to roll 3+ and have a successful charge. Now I have to re-roll both.

KFF NERF: Kustom Force Field. Went from 6' bubble that gave 5++ to any unit completely under the bubble to 9' bubble that buffs any unit it touches....however its now a 6++, so yeah, you probably reach 1-2 extra units, but you lost 50% of its function.

Points: Boyz went from 7ppm in 8th to 9ppm in 9th and had all those aforementioned nerfs applied. Why? because they got T5.

Base Size: official base size went up, now its harder to fit as many boyz in CC as you used to be able to.

Close Combat got smaller: If you want to fight in CC now the range to be considered in combat is smaller then ever, you can only reliably get 2 full rows into CC now, it used to be 3, so now Ork boyz are more expensive, less deadly and fewer can fight.

So at the moment no, they are not really worth taking or investing in. However, if you have learned anything from GW's business practices over the last however many years you have played, its that all units are cyclical. What was good in 8th will suck in 9th or what is good in 9th will be crap in 10th. Its not always true but its a good general rule. So while boyz might be functionally useless right now, that doesn't mean in 10th they won't be good.

 Jidmah wrote:


The biggest effect of blasts on orks is running 10 boyz instead of 12 inside a trukk because a single blast will likely negate the extra two wounds you paint points for.

Ork's don't run units of 30 boyz because of morale, you fail morale so easily and lose so many models to attrition that bring such large units is just a waste of points.

This, as well as all the points I made above. Blast isn't that big of a deal honestly, for a D6 blast weapon they go from 3.5 shots on average to 6 or an increase of 2.5 extra shots, not hits, shots. Morale is absolutely the biggest crusher of ork boyz right now, quickly followed by delivery system, dmg output and buff support.

You can take these lads as they come in the box – a combined-arms unit – or get multiple boxes to create units specialised in either shootin’ or choppin’

Unreal..

 StewMan Group wrote:

You can take these lads as they come in the box – a combined-arms unit – or get multiple boxes to create units specialised in either shootin’ or choppin’

Unreal..

Translation: FETH we totally forgot that ork boyz can be built in 2 ways but we didn't include enough plastic to make them that way...hopefully they are stupid enough to not realize and buy 10 boxes to equip 1 full size mob of boyz.

Joking aside, with how the game is currently going in terms of anti-horde sentiment, smaller board sizes, more and more rules prohibitive to bringing large squads, fewer and fewer force multipliers worth taking and buffs becoming worse for horde armies...I really think GW is getting ready for 10th edition where they limit squad size to 20 or even 15. Its the only feasible reason I can think of for why GW would make this new kit. If a mob maxes out at 15 it would only take 4-5 boxes to make shoota mobz and 2 to make a choppa mob.

SemperMortis wrote:

angel of death 007 wrote:
Is boyz mobs even practical at this point though. I know a lot of people are making waves about not being able to make 30 boyz with the new kit without getting several kits but I thought with the new blast rules and that fielding 30 boyz was a thing of the past?

Are they practical in current day 9th edition? No. They lost a plethora of things.

NERFS:

Mob Rule. Went from # of models in the unit or nearby units = LD. New Mob rule, if a mob is nearby and above 50% you count as above 50%.

Large Mob buff: Lost +1 attack for 20+ Models

Lost Green Tide Stratagem: This one allowed you to bring a unit of boyz back to life so long as it had at least 1 model remaining. you could theoretically resurrect 203pts worth of boyz with this trick.

Fight Twice Stratagem: Can no longer fight twice.

Weirdboy Buffs: Weirdboy became less reliable so getting those important Da Jumps off is harder now.

Lost +1 to charge. In Evil Sunz you could get +1 to charge, this made deep striking boyz with Da Jump or "Teleporta" a reliable trick. Because it was also teamed with...

Changed "ere we go" special rule: Old Ere we go was you could pick to re-roll 1 or both dice. New Ere we go is you HAVE to re-roll both dice. Doesn't sound bad but think about it this way, if I roll a 6 and a 1, i could choose to re-roll the 1 and have a 66% chance to roll 3+ and have a successful charge. Now I have to re-roll both.

KFF NERF: Kustom Force Field. Went from 6' bubble that gave 5++ to any unit completely under the bubble to 9' bubble that buffs any unit it touches....however its now a 6++, so yeah, you probably reach 1-2 extra units, but you lost 50% of its function.

Points: Boyz went from 7ppm in 8th to 9ppm in 9th and had all those aforementioned nerfs applied. Why? because they got T5.

Base Size: official base size went up, now its harder to fit as many boyz in CC as you used to be able to.

Close Combat got smaller: If you want to fight in CC now the range to be considered in combat is smaller then ever, you can only reliably get 2 full rows into CC now, it used to be 3, so now Ork boyz are more expensive, less deadly and fewer can fight.

So at the moment no, they are not really worth taking or investing in. However, if you have learned anything from GW's business practices over the last however many years you have played, its that all units are cyclical. What was good in 8th will suck in 9th or what is good in 9th will be crap in 10th. Its not always true but its a good general rule. So while boyz might be functionally useless right now, that doesn't mean in 10th they won't be good.

 Jidmah wrote:


The biggest effect of blasts on orks is running 10 boyz instead of 12 inside a trukk because a single blast will likely negate the extra two wounds you paint points for.

Ork's don't run units of 30 boyz because of morale, you fail morale so easily and lose so many models to attrition that bring such large units is just a waste of points.

This, as well as all the points I made above. Blast isn't that big of a deal honestly, for a D6 blast weapon they go from 3.5 shots on average to 6 or an increase of 2.5 extra shots, not hits, shots. Morale is absolutely the biggest crusher of ork boyz right now, quickly followed by delivery system, dmg output and buff support.

Thanks for all the insight. I do miss the days of massive ork boyz squads, granted you lost quite a few getting them there but once they were in combat they really tied up your opponent.

I think what's quite interesting about the above summary of the changes to Boyz is that it emphasises how much of their previous perceived "viability" was down to stacking up a bunch of kinda gamey rules interactions, several of which were dependent on taking the biggest possible unit. I get the impression that what GW was going for was to reduce this over-reliance on running Boyz one fairly specific way in order to get anything out of them, but seems like the fairly minor gains they got were negated by what they had taken away, and then the problem was compounded by cranking up the points cost on top of that.

Personally, I'm of the opinion that Boyz shouldn't be an elite-level threat – more a troublesome sea of bodies that will overrun you unless they're dealt with – and I like the idea of not being limited to running 30-strong mobs in order to be remotely viable, but what you currently get for your points/power just isn't up to snuff. Tbh, it doesn't help that our *other* Troops option also got worse and more expensive as well.

The problem is that Orks don't have any decent troops now. Grots are completely useless and a waste of points and Boyz... they don't DO anything anymore. To unreliable to cause any significant damage against anything and too frail to withstand even the lightest firepower. The new mob rule took away any benefits of the T5, because you don't need to cause many wounds before the unit folds anyway.

With the existing 10+ page thread in the discussion forum about the issues with Boyz, is there any need to keep discussing them here?

As far as I know there's no new Ork releases on the horizon aside from a separate box for the Kommandos from KT.

The boyz discussion can be continued here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/802000.page

(or not. everything has been said multiple times now)

Oops, sorry – I think I though I *was* in that thread.

 Jidmah wrote:
The boyz discussion can be continued here: https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/802000.page

(or not. everything has been said multiple times now)

And yet we still have posters saying Boyz are competitive I think Xenos changed account names and is now running 5-6 bot accounts to make the Stompa look more powerful