Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
ERJAK wrote: [ They've poured effort, time, money, and expertise into their work that GW couldn't possibly match, even with an unlimited budget. Money can't buy time.
Say what? Money can and will buy expertise! Thats the point? An expert has spent his own time becoming an expert thats why they cost serious money.
GW may choose not to spend money on that but they could match and surpass, by a long mile, YouTube videos quality.
StraightSilver wrote: General consensus is that the cheapest animation studios cost around $3000 a minute.
If that's true, each episode of Hammer and Bolter costs in the region of $50-60k.
So if that is true then Hammer and Bolter in its entirety has cost GW around half a million.
That's why it's not Hollywood quality.
Lol, now that is some fine bullpucky.
On average, an anime season of13 23 minutes-long episodes costs 2million dollars. Of these, the following are spent thusly:
A) about 350.000 are destined to the intro and outro songs and coverage of royalties. Old bale eye did not use either.
B)between 800.000 and a million will cover the voice actors. Japanese voice actors are basically celebrities and they must do multiple recordings. By contrast, western voice actors hover between the middle to the middle-low class, they do not get that much.Old bale eye used E-list actors that, bar the narrator, had notoriously short roles. Thus they most likely needed 1, maaaybe 2 recordings.
That leaves the animation budget at 700k to 1000k dollars for 300 minutes. On average. That is not the lowest, which is clearly what gw did go for.
I obviously do not expect hollywood quality, but I sure did not expect a corporate product would look sl gakky next to helluva boss
2021/09/09 19:13:26
Subject: Re:Warhammer+ GW's Video on Demand channel
Yeah, it'll be very unlikely that GW will put specific credits on this when none are on Codexes and the like. A repeat of the behaviour towards Matt Ward isn't something anyone wants again.
2021/09/09 19:36:20
Subject: Re:Warhammer+ GW's Video on Demand channel
I think my biggest concern the moment I heard this announced was "they're not going to have enough content to support this, and it's going to half-ass low quality stuff like all the 40K shovelware games". I think saying it only costs 6 bucks a month is.... wrongheaded. Sure, objectively $6 is not a lot of money - basically a pumpkin spice latte, who cares, right?
But if you do an apples-to-apples comparison, Disney Plus almost the same price, and gives you uncountable hours of high-end, expertly produced content. It sounds to me like Warhammer Plus is delivering... 40 minutes a week of new content, is that accurate? And you can gobble up the pre-existing stuff they put on there in an afternoon? Please correct me if I am wrong, I surely could be... and I'd like to be. I'd love a good execution in the premise.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/09 19:38:46
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
Gert wrote: Yeah, it'll be very unlikely that GW will put specific credits on this when none are on Codexes and the like. A repeat of the behaviour towards Matt Ward isn't something anyone wants again.
Considering how most companies with far more toxic fanbases manage to credit their workers...
Gert wrote: Yeah, it'll be very unlikely that GW will put specific credits on this when none are on Codexes and the like. A repeat of the behaviour towards Matt Ward isn't something anyone wants again.
So the reasoning behind GW not crediting their artists is to protect them?
BertBert wrote: So the reasoning behind GW not crediting their artists is to protect them?
It's very likely. Pre-people sending death threats to Ward, each Codex/Army Book had a credited writer so people would know who "ruined" their background or "broke" the army. Matt Ward did stuff that people didn't like, people's reactions were well beyond the realm of reason and GW then stopped crediting the designers. Considering the fanbase is still horrendously toxic I would expect the same policy would be applied to any WH+ stuff. It's not some evil attempt to reduce people's efforts to just "The Corporation".
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2021/09/09 19:57:32
Gert wrote: Yeah, it'll be very unlikely that GW will put specific credits on this when none are on Codexes and the like. A repeat of the behaviour towards Matt Ward isn't something anyone wants again.
Considering how most companies with far more toxic fanbases manage to credit their workers...
Oh yeah. Banri oda from ffxiv and madeline roux from wow got massive amounts of bile and death threats. They are still credited as, to quote director Naoki Yoshida, "they deserve their
Due credit."
Gert wrote: Yeah, it'll be very unlikely that GW will put specific credits on this when none are on Codexes and the like. A repeat of the behaviour towards Matt Ward isn't something anyone wants again.
You mean, a repeat of blaming people who did a bad job for doing a bad job?
There exist such concepts as 'responsibility' and 'accountability', most adults should be familiar with.
"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado
Lord Damocles wrote: And yet they credit authors, White Dwarf contributors, games designers, etc...
I haven't seen any game designers credited for anything since, well ever. Unless we're talking about people like Andy Chambers? I didn't even know James Hewitt made Blood Bowl and Titanicus until this year.
Just from the reactions I've seen to WH+ so far, it looks like its the right move after all.
You mean, a repeat of blaming people who did a bad job for doing a bad job?
There exist such concepts as 'responsibility' and 'accountability', most adults should be familiar with.
Actually, I mean the fact that people threw tantrums and sent death threats to someone because he wrote some words they didn't like. Where's the accountability for them or the countless people who kept the hatred going for absolutely no reason?
In more recent times we've also seen some of the authors who wrote the children's warhammer books also get similar threats and hostile behaviour before the books had even been released.
Plus if you want something direct, at least 1 3D animator got scared away from Warhammer animation entirely when "fans" discovered that the person might go and work for Warhammer under Warhammer+.
Sadly there are those who consider themselves fans of Warhammer who are unreasonably and abusively hostile not just toward "Games Workshop" in forums or message boards; but who actively seek out specific staff and send them hate mail, death threats and more.
So yes I think if WE as fans want to see GW's attitude toward creators change and to see more credits then its 100% on us to weed out that behaviour and discourage it from happening (no, no that doesn't mean find those people and send them death threats - it means making it clear that that behaviour is not tolerated - ergo likely removing them from social groups and the like etc....)
I would assume GW doesn't want to have someone getting death threats because they don't like the animation quality in Bolter and Chainsword
Plus if you want something direct, at least 1 3D animator got scared away from Warhammer animation entirely when "fans" discovered that the person might go and work for Warhammer under Warhammer+.
That is, sadly, much more due to the virulent cultures that permeate most fandoms in japan and south korea. Even things like a celebrity getting the wrong boyfriend, or even the wrong boyfriend, can cause a massive backlash.
Gert wrote: Yeah, it'll be very unlikely that GW will put specific credits on this when none are on Codexes and the like. A repeat of the behaviour towards Matt Ward isn't something anyone wants again.
You mean, a repeat of blaming people who did a bad job for doing a bad job?
There exist such concepts as 'responsibility' and 'accountability', most adults should be familiar with.
Sure but also, death threats. GW fans and anti-fans take stuff WAY too seriously. I'm not surprised they decided to get rid of credits when it meant online harassment for the writers because some manchild decided the writer got his precious toy soldiers wrong.
Gert wrote: Yeah, it'll be very unlikely that GW will put specific credits on this when none are on Codexes and the like. A repeat of the behaviour towards Matt Ward isn't something anyone wants again.
You mean, a repeat of blaming people who did a bad job for doing a bad job?
There exist such concepts as 'responsibility' and 'accountability', most adults should be familiar with.
Yes, because what happened back then was purely constructive critisism towards the author... no wait, the internet warrior community is a steaming pile of gak that sends death threats because they don't like a short piece of fluff.
Designer's Note: Hardened Veterans can be represented by any Imperial Guard models, but we've really included them to allow players to practise their skills at making a really unique and individual unit. Because of this we won't be making models to represent many of the options allowed to a Veteran squad - it's up to you to convert the models. (Imperial Guard, 3rd Edition)
Gert wrote: Yeah, it'll be very unlikely that GW will put specific credits on this when none are on Codexes and the like. A repeat of the behaviour towards Matt Ward isn't something anyone wants again.
You mean, a repeat of blaming people who did a bad job for doing a bad job?
There exist such concepts as 'responsibility' and 'accountability', most adults should be familiar with.
Yes, because what happened back then was purely constructive critisism towards the author... no wait, the internet warrior community is a steaming pile of gak that sends death threats because they don't like a short piece of fluff.
When was the last time anyone gave a gak about constructive criticism they got? Or it resulted in any changes?
"Tabletop games are the only setting when a body is made more horrifying for NOT being chopped into smaller pieces."
- Jiado
Gert wrote: Yeah, it'll be very unlikely that GW will put specific credits on this when none are on Codexes and the like. A repeat of the behaviour towards Matt Ward isn't something anyone wants again.
You mean, a repeat of blaming people who did a bad job for doing a bad job?
There exist such concepts as 'responsibility' and 'accountability', most adults should be familiar with.
Yes, because what happened back then was purely constructive critisism towards the author... no wait, the internet warrior community is a steaming pile of gak that sends death threats because they don't like a short piece of fluff.
When was the last time anyone gave a gak about constructive criticism they got? Or it resulted in any changes?
I can't tell if you're trying at dark humour or honestly trying to somehow defend/validate sending death threats to authors for rules for a toy game/writing a story book for kids/etc....
Gert wrote: Yeah, it'll be very unlikely that GW will put specific credits on this when none are on Codexes and the like. A repeat of the behaviour towards Matt Ward isn't something anyone wants again.
You mean, a repeat of blaming people who did a bad job for doing a bad job?
There exist such concepts as 'responsibility' and 'accountability', most adults should be familiar with.
Yes, because what happened back then was purely constructive critisism towards the author... no wait, the internet warrior community is a steaming pile of gak that sends death threats because they don't like a short piece of fluff.
When was the last time anyone gave a gak about constructive criticism they got? Or it resulted in any changes?
As someone who instructs and teaches in the work place and is heavily involved in coaching and mentoring, I see it most days.
BertBert wrote: So the reasoning behind GW not crediting their artists is to protect them?
It's very likely. Pre-people sending death threats to Ward, each Codex/Army Book had a credited writer so people would know who "ruined" their background or "broke" the army. Matt Ward did stuff that people didn't like, people's reactions were well beyond the realm of reason and GW then stopped crediting the designers. Considering the fanbase is still horrendously toxic I would expect the same policy would be applied to any WH+ stuff. It's not some evil attempt to reduce people's efforts to just "The Corporation".
If it isn't that, why doesn't every company do it?
Gert wrote:Luetin or any other YT Channel didn't have to make a service in the first place, nor are they restricted in what they can do by either employment laws or Covid restrictions.
WH+ might not be brilliant but you can't just say "but GW has loads of money" as justification for your arguments.
A bit of a rant under the spoiler tags about that money thing :/
Spoiler:
But GW has loads of money and money can buy you quite a bit of stuff. They could have paid for more people to create content, be it painting/kitbashing videos, lore, interviews, podcasts, behind the scenes stories about some stuff with funny anecdotes and interesting tidbits of the whole process (without giving away trade secrets of course).
They could do multiple battle reports in parallel, edit them, and then have a buffer of those for when something else isn't ready for whatever reason. They could make a full multimedia version of the old "a tale of four games" White Dwarf series over half a year or so (videos, articles galleries, army lists, that kind of stuff), have narrative campaigns with multiple people where you get comments from each player's perspective as they try to outwit each other without knowing what the others have planned but you the viewer get to know it all and can try to predict how it goes and get invested into the outcome.
Have multiple painter paint the same miniature in different styles (Louise with her colourful style, somebody with a clean cover photo style, a grimdark style, and an absolute beginner style). That would be four different videos and then a fifth of them discussing different approaches to get certain effects and why/how they did certain things. They wouldn't even need to be in the same office to do that that (video conferencing exists, set everybody up in an individual studio, at home or wherever, with a little bit of that money GW has).
Today there are so many options that are relatively affordable (considering their capabilities), within their budget, and deliver enough quality (GW are not making IMAX movies with Christopher Nolan). That's why even small-ish youtubers can make stuff of rather high quality even if they don't invest tens of thousands (sometimes not even thousands) in their camera setup. It's not the late 00s anymore when Red cameras were still a bit temperamental and the brand new offering for the high end prosumer/pro target audience.
They could also just take the existing setup that they already have and parallelism it a bit more so they can output more content if they want to make this channel "a thing". That's something money can buy them. They could have invest a low single digit percentage of their profits (of those 100mil or so of that one year) into this (would still be a few millions but leave them with more than 90 mil in profits, which would by itself still be a huge year over year increase) and also hired editors and/or consultants to help them set up these multiple sets and get a head start on all of this. And the equipment would also be useful into the future. It's not like these cameras turn into dust in the new year. Individuals or small groups manage it on youtube, Darren Latham one of their miniature designers did high quality painting videos for fun in his free time.
And that's just the video side of it. If they made something like a narrative campaign then they could also give away free professional campaign maps and/or little rulesets each month/quarter/whatever that synergise with those campaigns. Get people into that stuff so they start new armies in parallel with those videos. And if they give away free minis occasionally they could have the above mentioned multi painter setup for those too. Give people who just want the mini a reason to watch the videos, give people who watch these videos a mini to paint along.
Do better than "okay I guess that's good enough". They have this whole vertically integrated thing, from lore, through miniatures, to games, and all kinds of stuff in between. There should be something they can do to make their subscription service stand out a bit instead of delivering content that gets a passing grade. Actually invest in it so it feels like there's even more to all of this. There's so much cool stuff they have access to and that they could make that fans simply can't do but might love to see.
In the end it's GW who set up a paid service and that service gets naturally compared to the media juggernauts (Disney, Netflix,…) for breadth of content at a similar price point and with fan created content that's relatively free. Having enough content so that fans who are only interested in a portion of it (and not all) feel satisfied should be the default starting point to aim for, not a long term goal for some point in the future. They don't get to play the "lone creator in the basement who doesn't know how all of this works" card, simply because of the resources they have. Or if they don't have something then it's something they can buy. They can bypass a lot of the pain points that independent youtubers can't and they get measured against a different set of parameters. The reason is they make hundreds of millions and if they want into this market then they will have to invest accordingly.
Is Luetina multi million company that set up a propietary streaming service?
No. Means also he doesn't have to worry about being profitable or paying 5 digits per episode of animation.
Nobody is expecting them to have multiple Pixar level animated short series with weekly or monthly releases but if content of that type is rather sparse (takes long to make and is expensive) then use it as the cherry on top and plump up your regular releases with other content, like the stuff I mention under the first spoiler tag above or something else.
It should start with way more of a "hey, that's really cool" mood and way fewer "I guess I give it a few more months and see".
BertBert wrote: So the reasoning behind GW not crediting their artists is to protect them?
It's very likely. Pre-people sending death threats to Ward, each Codex/Army Book had a credited writer so people would know who "ruined" their background or "broke" the army. Matt Ward did stuff that people didn't like, people's reactions were well beyond the realm of reason and GW then stopped crediting the designers. Considering the fanbase is still horrendously toxic I would expect the same policy would be applied to any WH+ stuff. It's not some evil attempt to reduce people's efforts to just "The Corporation".
If it isn't that, why doesn't every company do it?
GW said they weren't including people's names for that reason, or at least they said that's why they stopped back in the day.
Thing is, you can get death threats for saying you like your toast buttered on the wrong side. People aren't going to change, and it's not unique to just one "community." In any large group you're guaranteed to have some unhinged weirdos.
So either accept that it will happen and give people public credit for their work, or never include people's names on anything again. GW seems to have taken the latter approach.
Lord Damocles wrote: And yet they credit authors, White Dwarf contributors, games designers, etc...
I haven't seen any game designers credited for anything since, well ever. Unless we're talking about people like Andy Chambers? I didn't even know James Hewitt made Blood Bowl and Titanicus until this year.
There have been regular articles in White Dwarf by the designers spouting absolute gibberish.
2021/09/09 22:13:20
Subject: Re:Warhammer+ GW's Video on Demand channel
Ouze wrote: I think my biggest concern the moment I heard this announced was "they're not going to have enough content to support this, and it's going to half-ass low quality stuff like all the 40K shovelware games". I think saying it only costs 6 bucks a month is.... wrongheaded. Sure, objectively $6 is not a lot of money - basically a pumpkin spice latte, who cares, right?
But if you do an apples-to-apples comparison, Disney Plus almost the same price, and gives you uncountable hours of high-end, expertly produced content. It sounds to me like Warhammer Plus is delivering... 40 minutes a week of new content, is that accurate? And you can gobble up the pre-existing stuff they put on there in an afternoon? Please correct me if I am wrong, I surely could be... and I'd like to be. I'd love a good execution in the premise.
I dunno, Mandalorian is cool and all but if I have to watch another commercial for The Bad Batch my eyes might start bleeding. Say what one will about Warhammer + animation... at least it doesn't look like THAT.
Jarms48 wrote: I'm not getting it. I might wait for a year and then by a single month to binge watch everything. That's about it.
And that's totally fair and clearly GW think many will that. Which is why they bundle in things like the models and the vouchers to encourage people to remain subscribed. Of course if you don't want either of those things then the service has much less value.
Alongside it you've also got app-access which is a good boon and, again, if you use it its worth the cost; but if you don't or if you feel the apps aren't any good (the 40K one seems to have some issues); then yep its got less value.
