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 morganfreeman wrote:
Rolling a save does add agency, or at least 'involves' the controlling player in the process (which is, arguably, agency).

Player agency as a design term conventionally refers to the ability to make decisions. If you're just rolling dice and checking the result with no capacity to make decisions that affect the outcome, you have no agency in the process. Saves are not a mechanism for adding agency, they're a legacy of the game's RPG roots and a very shallow way to keep both players involved in 30+ minute IGOUGO turns.

I can't say I miss 7th edition.

I didn't dislike it as such - the core rules themselves were fine, other than a few wonky interactions. It was just the codexes I didn't like. The slow release schedule, the Decurions, etc.

Hell, I actually liked the concept of Decurions, but the implementation was so wildly varied.

What I do miss is 8th edition Indexhammer. Simple, fun, and a great way to introduce the game to new players. IMHO, GW should put out a free version of 9th edition, where you can download the core rules and all the basic unit rules (i.e. no subfactions, no detachment rules, etc) for nothing. You can already kind of do this with the free core rules booklet and the unit rules that come with kits, but having everything online would be a great way to rope in players who played in previous editions and already have a few models.

I may be somewhat a grey beard now but the good old days is 2-5th edition. 6,7 and even most of 8th honestly are The Dark Ages of warhammer where the rules writing was so laughably terrible that 40K barely functioned as a coherent board game and was mostly just a “show your funkopop collection off!” cash grab. 8th may be a stretch to say it was as bad as 6 & 7 (because it was much better). But the fact they released 8th edition with such god awful terrain rules is not something I will forget easily.

I don't. I really don't.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Those were the days man - if they rolled a 6 you lost 1 model in a unit. Now days...you spend 1 Cp and you lose a whole unit.

Shoot at a unit of scatter bikes and they jink to get a 4+ save and hit on 6's the next turn and can't really hurt you. Now...you shoot at a unit of chaff infantry and they get 2+ saves.

Man this game totally blows now.

Obvious Troll is Obvious.

All you people complaining about how broken stuff in this game is; you just gotta learn to FORGE THE NARRATIVE!

Also, people like to complain about ScatBikes and D-weapon spam when talking about 7th edition Eldar, but the thing they had that gives me the Vietnam flashbacks was Warp Spiders. Little feths were just impossible to hurt unless you somehow got close enough to charge them, and their weapons were good too. And most Eldar players I knew loved to spam the everloving crap out of them. There were plenty of armies in 7th that had broken rules and would mercilessly pound you, but Eldar didn't even give you the courtesy of lube.

I love the potential that was 7th edition but in no way do I miss the fan dex that GW somehow greenlit for publication under the name of Craftworld Eldar. The fact that somebody looked at that codex and said "This gets the Game Workshop seal of approval" is mind blowing. Then they made the Ynnari codex which could use the already broken Craftworld units, detachments, and formations but then layer on top the insanely OP Ynnari Strength from Death / Souburst or whatever it was called in exchange for losing the far less powerful Battle Focus (which scatterbikes couldn't run so it did literally nothing for them). Ynnari Warp Spider aspect hosts was more of a cancer than Nurgle.

Str D and Super Heavies in regular 40k ranks up there with the decision to make invisibility in terms of really bad ideas.

Apple fox wrote:
I must admit I don’t miss the passive aggressive response my eldar got back then.

Someday GW will do craftworlds Eldar right, maybe a few more editions for them to work out some basics.

CWE have been alternately game-breakingly powerful and unplayably bad, flipping about every two editions, since the beginning of Warhammer. If they haven't figured it out in thirty years I wouldn't hold out hope.

I don't miss the editions that killed off the local community for good.

3rd (when I started) to 5th were much better.

7th edition without SM, tau and eldar wasn't actually a bad edition.

 Blackie wrote:
7th edition without SM, tau and eldar wasn't actually a bad edition.

Yes it was. Daemons and Chaos soup were just as busted as Eldar and Marines for most of the edition (screamer star anyone?) and took the uncontested top spot once Cabal Star and ifinite horrors started making its rounds. Admech War Conclave and Necron decurions were also busted, they just happened to be overshadowed by even more OP nonsense. Flying Hive Tyrants were also a thing.


'SM' here includes 4.5 codexes (blood angels were rare) because even if you got rid of stock SM and its grav spam battle companies, you still had unkillable deathstars you could form out of Space wolves, Dark angels, and Grey Knights.

The codex balance was a nightmare top to bottom and the Core Rules weren't much better with the incredibly binary AP system, USRs being a snarled mess, swooping flying monstrous creatures, everything about the psychic phase, etc.

The good old days with armor values when you could blow up a leman russ with a bolt pistol with one shot.

I miss how it was a bit more thematic and flavourful compared to 8th/9th, where now any environmental effect or bonus etc is just Mortal Wounds. Boring as hell.

At least wytchfires now work.
Previously we had the entire pyro discipline which was just a big meme, and the only wytchfire power used (scream), actually caused Mortal Wounds.

Xeno's actual opinion on 7th:

Drop pods OP https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/632112.page
Land speeder storm OP https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/633401.page
Warp storm table OP https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/638472.page
Daemons OP https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/698196.page
So, not so different from his opinion on 9th

From what I can tell from a quick glance at his post history during 7th, he essentially started with eldar and switched armies multiple times to GK, tau and marines. Considering this, it's somehow unsurprising that he doesn't feel like 7th was a bad edition.
9th's vastly improved balance no longer allows you to just buy the most recent hot stuff and start winning games despite a total lack of skills, so I guess he just misses the time when his original army - eldar - were good.

So, I honestly wish you good luck in getting an eldar codex that allows to have fun playing your army again. You'll still have to work for your wins though.

I miss uh... armorbane warscythes I guess? 7th sucked.

In his defense, the thread about Drop Pods being OP was a joke, as the DP physically broke off a bit of his Dreadknight.

On the other hand, this seems to be in a stark contrast to "7th was a great edition with lots of fun all around"

 Xenomancers wrote:
...Just forget it. This game is so broken I might never play it again...

I had fun in 7th but only because well IA13 was a thing and the locals more or less decided to implement a ban list on certain psy and formations....

Isn't Xeno the guy that's said before he's here just because he enjoys fething with people?

Pointer5 wrote:
The good old days with armor values when you could blow up a leman russ with a bolt pistol with one shot.

IIRC it was never possible to make them explode, but there was a 1 in 36 chance of wrecking a leman russ with a hit from behind in 3rd and 4th edition.

That's why you'd sometimes see tanks paired off back to back in early editions, or very closely packed walls of battlewagons.

A.T. wrote:

Pointer5 wrote:
The good old days with armor values when you could blow up a leman russ with a bolt pistol with one shot.

IIRC it was never possible to make them explode, but there was a 1 in 36 chance of wrecking a leman russ with a hit from behind in 3rd and 4th edition.

That's why you'd sometimes see tanks paired off back to back in early editions, or very closely packed walls of battlewagons.

Not with a S4 weapon, right, but a Heavy Bolter or any other S5 weapon could definitely instant kill an AV10 vehicle. A battlewagon was also open topped which made it easier to get instant killed.

Wall of BWs was a thing in 5th because not only it was harder to target the sides of those vehicles but also because a Big Mek with KFF embarked in the vehicle in the centre granted a nice 4+ cover save to ALL three battlewagons making them very hard to kill. It was actually my favorite tactics in that edition .

7th was awful.

If you squinted and only played the bad factions against each other you could have a vaguely interesting game that went to the last dice roll. But the bulk of people didn't, and there were just so many ways luck could give you an awful game.

You had an awful and incredibly concrete tier system:
[Eldar-Tau-Marines-Daemons-Knights]
[Necrons]
[Hive Tyrant Spam/Reaver Spam]
[Orks/CSM/Guard/non-Spam Tyranids and DE].
And usually games between those in the top tier were determined by who went first. (I.E. if Tau went first they had a good chance of tabling anything, if however they didn't and people could pop of invisibility and cross half the board they were probably screwed.)

Then you had Ynnari (completely off the wall busted) and GSC (basically a coinflip insta-win or insta-lose based on your ambush rolls.)

Yeah, just awful. Late edition Marine dominance in 8th was better than this.

 Blackie wrote:
Wall of BWs was a thing in 5th because not only it was harder to target the sides of those vehicles but also because a Big Mek with KFF embarked in the vehicle in the centre granted a nice 4+ cover save to ALL three battlewagons making them very hard to kill. It was actually my favorite tactics in that edition .

Five battlewagons at 1850pts was one of my old gimmick lists in 5th (mek, warboss, 12 nobz, 60 boyz, and 2 deffkoptas).

I think that vs a space wolf army was one of the most one-sided games A couple of amusingly failed death or glory attempts, drive-by plankings, and a lot of missiles doing not a lot of good. Of course the whole thing would fall apart against the right kind of opposition but he'd been playing the same list over and over and earlier editions enforced the paper/scissors/stone aspect more strongly.

A.T. wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Wall of BWs was a thing in 5th because not only it was harder to target the sides of those vehicles but also because a Big Mek with KFF embarked in the vehicle in the centre granted a nice 4+ cover save to ALL three battlewagons making them very hard to kill. It was actually my favorite tactics in that edition .

Five battlewagons at 1850pts was one of my old gimmick lists in 5th (mek, warboss, 12 nobz, 60 boyz, and 2 deffkoptas).

I think that vs a space wolf army was one of the most one-sided games A couple of amusingly failed death or glory attempts, drive-by plankings, and a lot of missiles doing not a lot of good. Of course the whole thing would fall apart against the right kind of opposition but he'd been playing the same list over and over and earlier editions enforced the paper/scissors/stone aspect more strongly.

God, I miss planks. One of the worst things that 7th took away from orks, among with cybork. At least 8th gave us the deff rolla back.

Are you sure you played that at 1850? If my memory serves me right, that only adds up to 1850 if have everything bare bones.

But yes, battle wagon bash was the golden age of ork gaming. Still hoping for it to come back.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Monsters on the other hand were Amazing but had a T value and anything could hurt them.

Unless they were T8+, in which case they were immune to the vast majority of basic infantry weapons and melee since the Wound chart had a cap at T that were double or more the S of the attack. Monsters also didn't degrade with wounds so that Wraithlord was just as deadly at 1 Wound as at full while its Imperial counterpart the Space Marine Dreadnought, assuming it didn't die in a single volley thanks to its lack of save, was probably missing its main weapon and unable to move at 1 hull point.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Monsters on the other hand were Amazing but had a T value and anything could hurt them.

Unless they were T8+, in which case they were immune to the vast majority of basic infantry weapons and melee since the Wound chart had a cap at T that were double or more the S of the attack. Monsters also didn't degrade with wounds so that Wraithlord was just as deadly at 1 Wound as at full while its Imperial counterpart the Space Marine Dreadnought, assuming it didn't die in a single volley thanks to its lack of save, was probably missing its main weapon and unable to move at 1 hull point.

I do miss the toughness chart honestly. its silly to me that anything can wound anything on a 6. a str 2 grot blaster that should barely function as a gun and might break if used as a club still has a 1/6 chance to harm an imperial knight or any other super heavy. Same thing for a lasgun or evne bolter vs a titan. even if it slowed play i would prefer somethign along the lines of a 6 means you now reroll and on another 6 cause a wound/hull point

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
Those were the days man - if they rolled a 6 you lost 1 model in a unit. Now days...you spend 1 Cp and you lose a whole unit.

Shoot at a unit of scatter bikes and they jink to get a 4+ save and hit on 6's the next turn and can't really hurt you. Now...you shoot at a unit of chaff infantry and they get 2+ saves.

Man this game totally blows now.

What chaff infantry gets 2+ saves?

The only one I can think of is Sisters of Battle in cover, who only MAYBE qualify as chaff. And if you have AP, then they don't get a 2+ anymore unless they're Valorous Heart.

Don't worry about it JNAP, because while those Chaff get 2+ saves remember,

 Xenomancers wrote:

Almost half the weapons in the game have d2+ almost half have ap-1 or 2.

So that 2+ save isn't that important anymore

The chance is not 1 in 6, it's 1 in 180. Add void shields and you are looking at 1260 grot blasters each shooting once to plonk off a single wound of the smallest titan on average, 3420 for a warlord titan.

The most commonly used argument for this being a problem is hyperbole. Take that away and the problem disappears.

 AnomanderRake wrote:

Apple fox wrote:
I must admit I don’t miss the passive aggressive response my eldar got back then.

Someday GW will do craftworlds Eldar right, maybe a few more editions for them to work out some basics.

CWE have been alternately game-breakingly powerful and unplayably bad, flipping about every two editions, since the beginning of Warhammer. If they haven't figured it out in thirty years I wouldn't hold out hope.

5th-8th Eldar have been top tier. 7th it was just so ridiculously obvious how broken almost every aspect of them was.

 Blackie wrote:
7th edition without SM, tau and eldar wasn't actually a bad edition.

I don't agree Blackie. 7th was literally just broken combos. Almost every faction had a broken combo that wasn't that fun to play against and if you brought that broken combo to a friendly game, your opponent basically lost right away. Eldar were just hte biggest offenders because they had like 10 broken combos while most had 1-2. Even our orkz had the green tide teamed with VSG and Painboy/KFF Warboss to make hundreds of bodies with a giant AV Shield, a 5+ Invuln and a 5+ FNP.

 Jidmah wrote:
The chance is not 1 in 6, it's 1 in 180. Add void shields and you are looking at 1260 grot blasters each shooting once to plonk off a single wound of the smallest titan on average, 3420 for a warlord titan.

The most commonly used argument for this being a problem is hyperbole. Take that away and the problem disappears.

i am more talking about a shadowsword or imperial knight equivilant less the actually should be in apocolypse only stuff. i meant just the to wound roll to be 1 in 6, but vs a bog standard knight warden or something. grot hits on 4+, then 1 in 6 to wound, and the knight saves 2/3 of the wounds. so through the whole sequence its almost a 3% chance to wound so admitadly not game breaking but still something about a lasgun or a grot gun actually damaging them. maybe my referring to imperial knights as titans is the confusion.