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 catbarf wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 catbarf wrote:
Help me understand what you're arguing beyond semantics.

Y'all can keep using that word 'til you're blue in the face. Won't ever make this a semantic argument.

You said this:

 catbarf wrote:
That's a good point that ties back to the idea of Chosen being Troops. It essentially gives you four core choices that shape your force:
-Cultists, being your GEQ chaff
-CSM, basic renegades
-Chosen, the actual veterans of the Heresy
-Cult Marines, amped up on their god's favor

You want Chosen to represent actual veterans of the HH, and regular CSM to be Rengegades and not veterans of the HH.

I reject this because it is basically saying that all veterans of the HH are Chosen, and that all the standard CSMs are not; they're just renegade Marines that joined as the decades went by. That's not how the fluff works, and I don't think that should be how the rules work.

I want a more elite profile than basic CSM to be available as a Troops choice and don't particularly care what it's called. Call it Chaos Marine Veterans then. Or Chaostouched Warpwarriors. Or Mr Potato Head. Doesn't matter. If you're quibbling on that label, then that's semantics.

Such a profile could- regardless of what it's called- be used to represent an army composed of hardened veterans from the Heresy. Even if that's not precisely what the Chosen profile is 'meant' to be. You seeming to get hung up on that label is why everyone is telling you you're arguing semantics.

If you have a more substantial disagreement with this concept you're not articulating it well.

It's GW, they'll avoid the whole discussion and we'll see CSM rebranded as "Astartes Hereticus" (with the keyword "Heretic astartes") and as veterans/Chosen "Astartes Hereticus Extremis". Rolls of the tongue much better and solves the confusion when talking about CSM if you mean the faction or the unit .

I can't see Chosen going any other way than the DE Trueborn / Bloodbrides. I.e. one unit can be made Chosen and can have slightly better stats but otherwise same models, same load-outs etc...

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
The past few pages are all about what chosen are and what slot they should be in, when the people asking for chosen troops really just want a +1A upgrade and better wargear for regular CSM.

Because that's all you get for being a "veteran of the long war".

And honestly, veterans of any kind have no business being troops.

Yeah sure jid so remove snaggas from orks and scions from guard troop slots?

Neither of those are inherently veteran units, though. Beast Snaggas are an Ork racial sub-kultur and Scions are better trained, better equipped Schola Progenium units. Both of their "upgraded" stats are derived from something other than being veterans.

Tyel wrote:
I'm unclear why whether this or that CSM can remember the Siege of Terra or happened to turn traitor last Tuesday matters to the mechanics of the game. It just seems like some strange internal-chaos fight that's run and run for 25 years. (See also: "make Marks flavourful and impactful"/"but my army shouldn't have to be dedicated to the Chaos Gods to work".)

I'm afraid I'm also unclear why Chaos Intercessors (i.e. CSM in the troops slot with +1 attack) are going to shake up the faction in any meaningful way. I guess you could argue for blinging them out with lots of Plasma guns and power weapons, but I'm still not seeing it (and odds are GW would insist on a new kit without these features). GW could for instance in their mercy just give CSM the Intercessor statline (cries of "but muh tacticals" can be met with "buy Primaris noob").

But would it matter? See the general minimisation of Marine Troops in Marine armies.

I'd rather they just gave CSms their chainswords AND boltguns back. I mean grey Hunters can have it, why can't chaos?

BrianDavion wrote:

Spoiler:

Tyel wrote:
I'm unclear why whether this or that CSM can remember the Siege of Terra or happened to turn traitor last Tuesday matters to the mechanics of the game. It just seems like some strange internal-chaos fight that's run and run for 25 years. (See also: "make Marks flavourful and impactful"/"but my army shouldn't have to be dedicated to the Chaos Gods to work".)

I'm afraid I'm also unclear why Chaos Intercessors (i.e. CSM in the troops slot with +1 attack) are going to shake up the faction in any meaningful way. I guess you could argue for blinging them out with lots of Plasma guns and power weapons, but I'm still not seeing it (and odds are GW would insist on a new kit without these features). GW could for instance in their mercy just give CSM the Intercessor statline (cries of "but muh tacticals" can be met with "buy Primaris noob").

But would it matter? See the general minimisation of Marine Troops in Marine armies.

I'd rather they just gave CSms their chainswords AND boltguns back. I mean grey Hunters can have it, why can't chaos?

You know why: because that's not an option for the current CSM kit. They can either have bolters or chainswords, not both. So that's what they'll have in the new codex.

And that's what we're asking for: a unit with better stats that can have both ranged weapons and melee weapons. And those better stats don't just have to be +1 attack, in 2nd edition Veteran Chaos Space Marines had better BS and WS and special rules like Infiltrate and Dispersed Formation. One would assume that CSM themselves will get 2A based on Death Guard, in exchange for losing DTTFE.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

Spoiler:

Tyel wrote:
I'm unclear why whether this or that CSM can remember the Siege of Terra or happened to turn traitor last Tuesday matters to the mechanics of the game. It just seems like some strange internal-chaos fight that's run and run for 25 years. (See also: "make Marks flavourful and impactful"/"but my army shouldn't have to be dedicated to the Chaos Gods to work".)

I'm afraid I'm also unclear why Chaos Intercessors (i.e. CSM in the troops slot with +1 attack) are going to shake up the faction in any meaningful way. I guess you could argue for blinging them out with lots of Plasma guns and power weapons, but I'm still not seeing it (and odds are GW would insist on a new kit without these features). GW could for instance in their mercy just give CSM the Intercessor statline (cries of "but muh tacticals" can be met with "buy Primaris noob").

But would it matter? See the general minimisation of Marine Troops in Marine armies.

I'd rather they just gave CSms their chainswords AND boltguns back. I mean grey Hunters can have it, why can't chaos?

You know why: because that's not an option for the current CSM kit. They can either have bolters or chainswords, not both. So that's what they'll have in the new codex.

And that's what we're asking for: a unit with better stats that can have both ranged weapons and melee weapons. And those better stats don't just have to be +1 attack, in 2nd edition Veteran Chaos Space Marines had better BS and WS and special rules like Infiltrate and Dispersed Formation. One would assume that CSM themselves will get 2A based on Death Guard, in exchange for losing DTTFE.

2A at the expense of DTTFE is solid, hell with that upgrade the onlky idfferance between CSMs and chosen is chosen can toss on wargear. (or they'll get three attacks) I think if CSMs could keep their chainsword and botlgun that'd be eneugh to make em distinct from loyalist space marines. 3 S4 AP -1 attacks, (4 on the charge) would actually be pretty solid

 Platuan4th wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
The past few pages are all about what chosen are and what slot they should be in, when the people asking for chosen troops really just want a +1A upgrade and better wargear for regular CSM.

Because that's all you get for being a "veteran of the long war".

And honestly, veterans of any kind have no business being troops.

Yeah sure jid so remove snaggas from orks and scions from guard troop slots?

Neither of those are inherently veteran units, though. Beast Snaggas are an Ork racial sub-kultur and Scions are better trained, better equipped Schola Progenium units. Both of their "upgraded" stats are derived from something other than being veterans.

In case of orks that is literally not true for derivates of the boy statline Sans specials.
These are quite literally copyrightable skarboyz with a "forced " Theme slapped on.

Just because you don't like their fluff, doesn't change the fact that they are still not considered veterans.

Ork veterans are nobz, everything smaller than that is just a regular boy with not enough combat experience to have become a nob.

 Jidmah wrote:
Just because you don't like their fluff, doesn't change the fact that they are still not considered veterans.

Ork veterans are nobz, everything smaller than that is just a regular boy with not enough combat experience to have become a nob.

Read again what i stated.
I stated that they are skarboyz (bigger and tougher) with a copyrightable name that just so happen to be themed for copyright reasons.
They are by all magnitute veterans of their theme, else they wouldn't be bigger and stronger than normal orks.

I have also not stated their lore annoys me. I simply pointed to them as an exemple of veteran troops. Which btw also applies to PM aswell.

anyway chosen as troops is a bad idea, that said, I'd be fine with chosen being removed as CSMs simply being boosted. making DTTFE a 2nd attack, and then giving them a chainsword and boltgun would honestly make them distinct from Marines, they'd outclass the standard tactical marine and would very much be something of a "dark mirror" to primaris Marines, with Primaris Marines having a better ranged punch and CSMs being better in close combat.

BrianDavion wrote:
anyway chosen as troops is a bad idea, that said, I'd be fine with chosen being removed as CSMs simply being boosted. making DTTFE a 2nd attack, and then giving them a chainsword and boltgun would honestly make them distinct from Marines, they'd outclass the standard tactical marine and would very much be something of a "dark mirror" to primaris Marines, with Primaris Marines having a better ranged punch and CSMs being better in close combat.

CSM aren't going to get bolters and boltguns because you can't assemble the models that way. It's either boltguns or chainswords and pistols. You can't do both.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
Just because you don't like their fluff, doesn't change the fact that they are still not considered veterans.

Ork veterans are nobz, everything smaller than that is just a regular boy with not enough combat experience to have become a nob.

Read again what i stated.
I stated that they are skarboyz (bigger and tougher) with a copyrightable name that just so happen to be themed for copyright reasons.
They are by all magnitute veterans of their theme, else they wouldn't be bigger and stronger than normal orks.

I have also not stated their lore annoys me. I simply pointed to them as an exemple of veteran troops. Which btw also applies to PM aswell.

The thing is that beast snagga = skarboyz is a leap of logic that isn't supported by anything but that they both share S5. Beastsnagga boyz are just the boyz of the beastsnagge subkulture, while scarboyz are phenomen mostly unique to goff.

And then again, the original topic was about marines, not completely unrelated armies that work differently in every way. Space marine veterans, neither loyal nor heretic, form the backbone of any space marine army and therefore don't belong in troop slots. An army made up of nothing but veterans should be extremely rare and limited, like the DA Deathwing.

It's also false to assume that every member of one of the legions is millennia old and has been gathering experience since the heresy, lore clearly shows that most them are still recruiting and making new marines. I also remember reading lore akin to that some Chaos Space Marines never grow past the stage of finally being able to kill and wage war unhindered by orders and morals, unable to broaden their horizon. For these marines being a traitor for centuries or decades makes little difference.

So in the end, I think moving chosen to troops would be a mistake, especially since it's done for the wrong reasons (wanting better stats+wargear). Instead, CSM should just be able to properly portrait those marines which have left behind the mindless killing and have gotten themselves drunken on chaos power. Which essentially is what people are asking for when they talk about veteran skills, marks doing something and better icons.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
anyway chosen as troops is a bad idea, that said, I'd be fine with chosen being removed as CSMs simply being boosted. making DTTFE a 2nd attack, and then giving them a chainsword and boltgun would honestly make them distinct from Marines, they'd outclass the standard tactical marine and would very much be something of a "dark mirror" to primaris Marines, with Primaris Marines having a better ranged punch and CSMs being better in close combat.

CSM aren't going to get bolters and boltguns because you can't assemble the models that way. It's either boltguns or chainswords and pistols. You can't do both.

and I think that's absolutely stupid

It might be stupid but the kit flat out doesn't allow it and there's no combination of CSM kits that would allow it. Therefore GW won't put it in their rules.

I am terribly sorry for using the word chosen. Please stop talking about it. No-one is coming for your chosen. The idea was...

Troops
Cultists
Renegade CSM - somewhat altered from loyalists but fundamentally the way to get power armoured bolter carrying bodies the cheapest
More idiosyncratic CSM probably from the old legions and able to be built like deathwatch squads. This allows you to build up the disparate warband feel and capture units from the fluff. Details on what to include in a squad in the original post but essentially deathwatch style disparate member and weapon options but with a chaotic feel.

If a warband is mono God, the appropriate cult marines become troop choices, otherwise cult marines are elites like currently.

 Gert wrote:
It might be stupid but the kit flat out doesn't allow it and there's no combination of CSM kits that would allow it. Therefore GW won't put it in their rules.

This leaves out an issue with the kit though...
You have only Baseline equipment for 8 of the CSM / 7 (depedning upon melee squad or shooty squad.)....
I hope they reign that in, but i doubt it..

 Gert wrote:
The biggest issue I'm seeing is why bother with normal CSM if you can just take Chosen.

Cost, squad size (up to 20 marines perhaps?), bunch of different reasons? They would be the way you capture the feel of a 30k legion style organisation or a mass of renegades skewering the Imperium. The other squad option would be costlier per man, limited at 10, etc. In the same way I take regular guard still instead of scions, or plain deathwatch vets instead of one of their mixed fancy squads.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:


And honestly, veterans of any kind have no business being troops.

Plenty of army lists have that as an option. And if you are a small elite warband like say the ADB Night Warriors all your troops are literal veterans,


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Not Online!!! wrote:

This leaves out an issue with the kit though...
You have only Baseline equipment for 8 of the CSM / 7 (depedning upon melee squad or shooty squad.)....
I hope they reign that in, but i doubt it..

Yes and the chances of getting a new kit are zero.

They do at least say this "The set is even designed to be compatible with the Havocs, allowing you to mix and match heavy weapons for even more choice" so it isn't as bad as some. Still even the option to be able to add possessed, terminators, bikers, raptors, Havocs and cult marines (the latter with some restrictions) like a deathwatch squad would mean you could have a lot more fun.

The_Real_Chris wrote:

Cost, squad size (up to 20 marines perhaps?), bunch of different reasons? They would be the way you capture the feel of a 30k legion style organisation or a mass of renegades skewering the Imperium. The other squad option would be costlier per man, limited at 10, etc. In the same way I take regular guard still instead of scions, or plain deathwatch vets instead of one of their mixed fancy squads.

For 2 Power (just using that since Combat Roster the only thing I have access to rn) Chosen get more attacks and better leadership, the only thing they're missing is <Core> AFAIK. If they do have core then baseline CSM are basically worthless.
Scions VS Infantry is a different thing. Scions get half the troops but get better weapons, saves, possible leadership and can also deep strike but they don't benefit from RegDoc unless it's a Scion only detachment. Chosen are just a flat upgrade on CSM currently and as far as I can tell there's really no reason to not take them.

That is though incredibly easy to fix. Even with only points - what is the cost for the basic squad marines vs the others would you want to make it a choice? Stuff like squad sizes is double edged, stuff like a cheap 5 man squad or a mob of 20 has upsides and downsides. Stratagems is the other obvious angle. But there are multiple ways of giving units options over others.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or just make the flashier unit Primaris

BrianDavion wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
anyway chosen as troops is a bad idea, that said, I'd be fine with chosen being removed as CSMs simply being boosted. making DTTFE a 2nd attack, and then giving them a chainsword and boltgun would honestly make them distinct from Marines, they'd outclass the standard tactical marine and would very much be something of a "dark mirror" to primaris Marines, with Primaris Marines having a better ranged punch and CSMs being better in close combat.

CSM aren't going to get bolters and boltguns because you can't assemble the models that way. It's either boltguns or chainswords and pistols. You can't do both.

and I think that's absolutely stupid

So do I. But gw doesn't. And, unfortunately, they write the rules.

Well those chainswords are heavy clearly!

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Tyel wrote:
I'm afraid I'm also unclear why Chaos Intercessors (i.e. CSM in the troops slot with +1 attack) are going to shake up the faction in any meaningful way. I guess you could argue for blinging them out with lots of Plasma guns and power weapons, but I'm still not seeing it

But would it matter? See the general minimisation of Marine Troops in Marine armies.

And that's what we're asking for: a unit with better stats that can have both ranged weapons and melee weapons. And those better stats don't just have to be +1 attack, in 2nd edition Veteran Chaos Space Marines had better BS and WS and special rules like Infiltrate and Dispersed Formation.

it's so possible for these models to have good profiles. The Victrix Guard exist, they're a real official unit in the Ultramarines supplement. Chosen who've ruled planets and led armies can stand up to some ultramarines.

if you know what the profile for victrix guard is, you might say they're too good for a 5-model or more unit of chosen. That's fine, the victrix guard show that you can start with that profile and then pull back a little bit on some of it. It means minimum, chosen can have three attacks (victrix have four each) and a better save of some kind (victrix have 2+).

Chosen have chaos armor, or patron spirits, or they just raided the chapter armory for its artificer armor. That can give them something like a 5++, or ignores ap -1, or rerolls saves of 1. I think 2+ armor is just the easiest, there's no need to waste special rules.

also a big strength of victrix is they come with 3++ storm shields included, and chaos chosen can't even buy those. So just flat out using the victrix profile with no storm shield and basic marine weapons is much less powerful. It puts a lot of distance between them and basic CSM.

To make the distance between chosen and CSM bigger in the other direction, troops section CSM could be just a little bit crappier than the basic loyalist. Legions and renegades both have reasons for this. In legions, we know that when they recruit new marines, they treat them like garbage until they're strong enough to fight back. In renegade chapters, all the good members of a tactical squad will go off to become champions or chosen, while ones that are left waste their time in the dueling cages and torturing people instead of maintaining good discipline. On an individual basis the troops can afford to be a little bit dingy.

Victrix guard are basicly just primaris honor guard, something that standard CSMs kinda lack. I think if I was gonna do it I'd create it as a unit of characters that can be taken in a group of "3 per init slot" and give them a rule called "curse your sudden inevitable betrayal" where to use the bodyguard function against an attack that would kill your warlord the warlord must pass a LDR check... if he fails the warlord dies...... but a bodyguard character who could have acted as a bodyguard gains a warlord trait and is treated as your new warlord for all intents and purposes (including meaning your opponent doesn't get a victory point for slay the warlord) to represent a "star scream moment"

If there were a need for a chaos version of body guards that would be a good rule for them.

people are talking about having a strong unit in elites or troops that matches the feel of the super swole chaos warriors from fantasy. I'm saying borrow the victrix profile for chosen, not any of the special rules or equipment. Standard chosen equipment, standard chosen unit size, standard chosen options. Super swole stats. but same rôle as always.

Chaos Warriors were swolen in fantasy because the baseline was the human, dwarf and elf profile.
Chaos marine are allready superior to normal humans, but what peiple IS asking IS for Chaos marines to be superior to loyalist and thats just not true. They should not be inferior of course but outside Chaos boons, relics and artifacts theres no reason for a Chaos marine veteran yo be superior to a loyalist veteran.

yep, they're not more powerful, they're slightly less powerful than a couple of ultramarines body guards who don't have any chaos boons.

Chaos forces, chosen chaos forces, tread the path to glory. the entire point of chaos is to accumulate more power in the mortal realm in exchange for the soul, and to try to live forever to outrun damnation. That's it, that's the faction.

and yes there should also be some inferior chaos marines. why would you say they should be equal

BrianDavion wrote:

Tyel wrote:
I'm unclear why whether this or that CSM can remember the Siege of Terra or happened to turn traitor last Tuesday matters to the mechanics of the game. It just seems like some strange internal-chaos fight that's run and run for 25 years. (See also: "make Marks flavourful and impactful"/"but my army shouldn't have to be dedicated to the Chaos Gods to work".)

I'm afraid I'm also unclear why Chaos Intercessors (i.e. CSM in the troops slot with +1 attack) are going to shake up the faction in any meaningful way. I guess you could argue for blinging them out with lots of Plasma guns and power weapons, but I'm still not seeing it (and odds are GW would insist on a new kit without these features). GW could for instance in their mercy just give CSM the Intercessor statline (cries of "but muh tacticals" can be met with "buy Primaris noob").

But would it matter? See the general minimisation of Marine Troops in Marine armies.

I'd rather they just gave CSms their chainswords AND boltguns back. I mean grey Hunters can have it, why can't chaos?

God yes. Looks great on the models and does well for the themes of CSM.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Galas wrote:
but what peiple IS asking IS for Chaos marines to be superior to loyalist and thats just not true. They should not be inferior of course but outside Chaos boons, relics and artifacts theres no reason for a Chaos marine veteran yo be superior to a loyalist veteran.

Baseline CSM should run the gamut between slightly inferior to loyalists, to sidegrade to loyalists, to superior to loyalists, depending on the CSM player's choices.

Undisciplined "rabble" marines with inferior weaponry (no ATSKNF, no access to Multimeltas/Grav, etc)
to
Comparable marines with less emphasis on discipline/cohesion and more emphasis on individual brutality (Same as above, but can all be given Chainswords in addition to boltguns AND pistols)
to
Veterans with centuries of experience (add veteran abilities like Infiltrate or whatever)
to
"Empowered" marines with chaos-god upgrades (add Marks of Chaos and respective additional bonuses) +1 S/A for Khorne, etc. Immune to Morale, stuff like that.

Add to those the ability to Summon daemons with Icons, and whatever else makes sense.

ALL of the above would ideally be CSM troop datasheet.


. . . .
Edit: Oh and in addition, re-open up the Havoc datasheet so they can take bigger squads, chainswords, special weapons, etc again. Stupid GW.

Why should all of those be CSM troops? I mean, Loyalist marine troop list is overcrowded for sure but all are "basic troopers" with different equipement options.

If you enter into veterans, guys with relics, etc... you are entering in Elite and other stuff territory.

The problem is that chaos marines lack a proper space marine unit to represent that because chosen are lackluster and can't compete with the sheer amount of marines the loyalist have from veterans to ultra veterans to primaris veterans etc...

CSM just have Chosen, Terminators, Havocs and Raptors as normal, not mutated not troops chaos marines.

The thing is that most armies don't have a lot of Troops choices so adding more doesn't help CSM. The CSM unit just needs to be viable over other choices such as Chosen or Cultists.
I think the biggest problem is that comparing CSM to regular SM is a losing battle. SM are essentially two Codexes in one with a lot of unit profiles expanded for no real reason other than "whoops we added X for Primaris, better do it for Firstborn". With the whole "different datasheets for different wargear" thing as well we have instances like 7 separate datasheets for SM Captains. The worst part is the only difference between the Gravis Captains is a single weapon, Bolt Rifle or Boltstorm Gauntlet.

 Galas wrote:
Why should all of those be CSM troops? I mean, Loyalist marine troop list is overcrowded for sure but all are "basic troopers" with different equipement options.

If you enter into veterans, guys with relics, etc... you are entering in Elite and other stuff territory.

The problem is that chaos marines lack a proper space marine unit to represent that because chosen are lackluster and can't compete with the sheer amount of marines the loyalist have from veterans to ultra veterans to primaris veterans etc...

CSM just have Chosen, Terminators, Havocs and Raptors as normal, not mutated not troops chaos marines.

You appear to not be aware of the history of CSM. What I wrote is basically the Chaos 3.5 CSM, and it was a single unit entry.