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Hah. They have breached 300% in the first few hours. Hope they estimated their supply against the demand correctly

 Irbis wrote:
Carcharodon? Not Shark Grey? Someone slipped there

I wonder if he got pre-clearance or at least inside chatter that no one would mind names like "Marine Blue" and "White Star" along with "Carcharodon" for grey?

Sure, Marine blue could be a reference to the Royal Navy, but it's also clearly Ultramarine blue. "White Star" and "White Scar" feels like tempting fate. Given GW's seemingly itchy trigger finger re: IP, Duncan's association with the GW brand, I would have gone with something like "Dragon tooth white" to put as much distance between my brand and GW's. I like DR and subscribe to his channel, just hope delivery won't be impacted by lawsuits!

Ultramarine is an actual colour name as well though.I think the genericness of the names will have been studied closely.

 Flinty wrote:
Ultramarine is an actual colour name as well though.I think the genericness of the names will have been studied closely.

Yes. Ultramarine is a color dating back to the 14th and 15th centuries and originally made of ground lapis lazuli. Carcharodon is a genus of sharks, of which the only surviving member is the Great White.

Noticed the paint shipped out of Liverpool UK wonder if this the same company that was involved in the ral partha Europe miniture paints Kickstarter??

Damn I wonder how all those salty out of touch detractors got it so wrong.
I mean they have postcounts way way higher than me, I guess "you only have 9 posts" is not an argument.

Hehe as I said the market will decide.

Color me surprised.

I didn't think it would do this well. I think the market is already over saturated with paint brands. But I'm happy for Duncan on his very successful Kickstarter.

I wonder how much it will reach before it is over.
Also i noticed the core box of Conquest on the background of the video!

Sasorijap wrote:
Also i noticed the core box of Conquest on the background of the video!

Not surprising...

 GoldenHorde wrote:
Damn I wonder how all those salty out of touch detractors got it so wrong.
I mean they have postcounts way way higher than me, I guess "you only have 9 posts" is not an argument.

Hehe as I said the market will decide.

Eh. Let detractors detract, people get off on sharing their thoughts.

It's valid to say the market is oversaturated with paint lines. It's also valid to say there are paint junkies who will try anything to up their game. It's clear they're less vocal, we're getting a taste of their enthusiasm.

Duncan reminds me of Lester Bursley circa 2010. Lester's airbrush and wash tips inspired me to take my work up several levels. Duncan has a similar appeal, he's very consistent and the "two thin coats" motto always struck me as an admission of some of the drawbacks to Citadel paints. Not that they're hopelessly defective, but that technique is important for achieving good results.

Maybe I'm naive, but I trust this line will reflect some introspection after his time working with Citadel paints. There's always ways to make something better, and I'm looking forward to working with them.

 flaherty wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
Carcharodon? Not Shark Grey? Someone slipped there

I wonder if he got pre-clearance or at least inside chatter that no one would mind names like "Marine Blue" and "White Star" along with "Carcharodon" for grey?

Sure, Marine blue could be a reference to the Royal Navy, but it's also clearly Ultramarine blue. "White Star" and "White Scar" feels like tempting fate. Given GW's seemingly itchy trigger finger re: IP, Duncan's association with the GW brand, I would have gone with something like "Dragon tooth white" to put as much distance between my brand and GW's. I like DR and subscribe to his channel, just hope delivery won't be impacted by lawsuits!

Marine just means "something to do with water". "Carcharodon" is a genus of shark, GW named a space marine chapter after sharks, that doesn't entitle them trademark/copyright of a common scientific name for anything other than a Space Marine chapter. And "White Star", well, stars look white. You also have the White Star Line of ships, probably most famous for the Titanic.

Nothing jumps out as me as being something that might be a problem in terms of IP, they're all common words.

From Wikipedia:

The name derives from Middle Latin ultramarinus, literally "beyond the sea" because it was imported from Asia by sea.

GW named their 'Ultramarines' after the color Ultramarine, a name which has been in use for centuries.

It's doing well but don't be fooled by the $50k target, that's nowhere near enough to properly get it going, but the meta on Kickstarter these days is to have a low goal so you can go "funded in 2 hours" and start getting people excited about stretch goals. The "Sir Coates" mini was talked about in the promo videos and that's the $125K stretch goal, so I'd imagine that's the actual goal. They've soared past that as well though.
I'm torn at the moment - the big set isn't badly priced but I wish the stretch goals were more paints rather than minis that I have no real use for. The agitators are cool though.

Might be worth feeding back about wanting more paints rather than minis. I backed to get one of everything, but I'd also prefer to swap the minis out for extra paints I'd use a lot of, on a one for one basis.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Might be worth feeding back about wanting more paints rather than minis. I backed to get one of everything, but I'd also prefer to swap the minis out for extra paints I'd use a lot of, on a one for one basis.

I’d highly doubt that would be feasible. I’m sure they have retail packaging sorted out already and quantities lined up. I wouldn’t be surprised if the main sets didn’t come with one of these figures, or another version of these figures at retail. They probably also have the shipping boxes sorted as to what sizes will be needed for the main pledges. Any sort of massive change to the plan would need adjusting of all of those items. Plus minis for paints . They want you to have more to paint so you’ll need to order more paints .

Theophony -- yeah, except -- they already have an option of letting you pick which paints you want, in each pledge.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Theophony -- yeah, except -- they already have an option of letting you pick which paints you want, in each pledge.

Just like CMoN, they will have the prepackaged 60 (one of each) which will most likely be 4 trays that each hold 15 paints. The other levels are a 15 pack and a 45 pack, also divisible by 15, so each will have 1 and 3 trays. The extras will probably fit a different tray the same size as the paint trays with multiple trays for miniatures and bases depending on stretch goals. If someone were to order an odd number(not 15) of paints, then they will probably use a 15 tray and leave the voids or have some sort of filler. But that way they can say this bloke ordered 9 trays worth, so we used box 4b to package it. It’s all preplanned in logistics ahead of time...hopefully. This is one of those steps that early kickstarters got themselves screwed on by not preparing. I think CMoN have it down to a science. It also gives them extra flex space if they don’t reach all the goals they can still “give” a bonus for showing such great support, or in CMoN terms, after we factored in the sales in China we hit a couple more goals.

Another nice stretch goal could be download of a 3D print file for paint racks to hold the new paints. I didn’t look to close at the Kickstarter as we’ve had two medical emergencies, roof damage and me starting a new job yesterday after leaving my old one on Friday.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
"Carcharodon" is a genus of shark, GW named a space marine chapter after sharks, that doesn't entitle them trademark/copyright of a common scientific name for anything other than a Space Marine chapter.

I like how people armchair lawyer stuff they know nothing about. GW can't trademark just "Carcharodon", but they absolutely can if "Carcharodon" is used with dark grey/hobby supplies used with their chapter of SM. Associations count. Milka (the chocolate) has a trademark on the shade of purple they use for their sweets, because of specific association. Other companies do too, even though it's "just" color. Ditto with "Ultramarine", on its own, it's fine, but give it the shade of blue GW uses and make it a hobby supply and GW will win it easily.

Now, I am pretty sure GW will do nothing about it (unlike the other thread full of strawmen thinking GW is Palpatine 2.0 instead of company defending their property would want you to believe). I just find interesting DR went past that line instead of just calling it safe like "Shark Grey" or something. Maybe he got okay from GW or lawyer, dunno, but it's weird he did a single blatant reference instead of none or several.

 Irbis wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
"Carcharodon" is a genus of shark, GW named a space marine chapter after sharks, that doesn't entitle them trademark/copyright of a common scientific name for anything other than a Space Marine chapter.

I like how people armchair lawyer stuff they know nothing about.

It's not really armchair lawyer as so blatantly obvious that it doesn't need a lawyer.

GW can't trademark just "Carcharodon", but they absolutely can if "Carcharodon" is used with dark grey/hobby supplies used with their chapter of SM.

Carcharodon Grey as used in Duncan's colour line is a similar grey to the sharks for which the word Carcharodon comes from.

It'd be like naming a group of blue orcs "Sky Orcs" and then trying to get IP protection on naming a colour "Sky Blue". GW could try and go after it but it'd be completely stupid to try. I would hope they would have learned from Chapterhouse when they tried and failed to claim infringement on halberds and broadswords, lol. It's no different than the several companies that have a blue-grey that they call "wolf grey".

Associations count. Milka (the chocolate) has a trademark on the shade of purple they use for their sweets, because of specific association.

Sure, but Duncan isn't advertising a line of Space Marines, he's advertising a line of paints. Carcharodon is a genus of shark, sharks that are grey, and his paint is grey, hence he's calling it Carcharodon Grey. Even if he was advertising armoured Space Men, that would be riskier but I doubt an infringement on an armour colour would hold up given many colours have been used historically for military uniforms. Ultramarines may be a GW thing, but blue uniforms have been used historically, and many historical forces have used grey uniforms of varying type. It's certainly not the same as having purple packaging on a chocolate block when your goal is to get people to mistake a popular chocolate block for your own.

But that's not what Duncan is doing anyway, he's advertising grey paint, not grey future-armoured-soldier-dudes.

Maybe if GW had released a paint called Carcharodon <something> it might be a bad idea, but it seems Duncan has been careful to avoid using GW's names in a way that could look like it was stepping on copyright (at least to anyone who knows anything about the world outside GW).

Other companies do too, even though it's "just" color. Ditto with "Ultramarine", on its own, it's fine, but give it the shade of blue GW uses and make it a hobby supply and GW will win it easily.

You do realise Ultramarine Blue has been a thing for hundreds of years and many companies make and sell Ultramarine Blue?

http://langridgecolours.com/ultramarine-blue-oil-colour/

https://www.newtownartsupplies.com.au/old-holland-oil-paints-40ml-series-a-ultramarine-blue/

https://artspectrum.com.au/products/artists-oil/ultramarine-blue-series-1/

https://www.winsornewton.com/na/product/professional-acrylic/?attribute_pa_wn_colour_name=ultramarine-blue&attribute_pa_wn_colour_size=60ml

I can understand being a bit concerned about "Carcharodon Grey" if you don't know that it refers to a shark, but GW going after anyone using "Ultramarine Blue" would be completely batgak insane when it's been a common paint name since forever.

 flaherty wrote:

 Irbis wrote:
Carcharodon? Not Shark Grey? Someone slipped there

I wonder if he got pre-clearance or at least inside chatter that no one would mind names like "Marine Blue" and "White Star" along with "Carcharodon" for grey?

Sure, Marine blue could be a reference to the Royal Navy, but it's also clearly Ultramarine blue. "White Star" and "White Scar" feels like tempting fate. Given GW's seemingly itchy trigger finger re: IP, Duncan's association with the GW brand, I would have gone with something like "Dragon tooth white" to put as much distance between my brand and GW's. I like DR and subscribe to his channel, just hope delivery won't be impacted by lawsuits!

IIRC none of GW’s paint names are actually trademarked.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
You do realise Ultramarine Blue has been a thing for hundreds of years and many companies make and sell Ultramarine Blue?

Yes, and it is "Ultramarines" not "Ultramarine" which is a small but very important difference as a blue colour named after 40k Ultramarines is perfectly fine as trademark no matter how long the colour Ultramarine already exists

yes, but ultamarines are a unique concept.
The shark genus carcharodon is not, and the only living shark of this genus is, in fact, grey.

It's a descriptive name that uses absolutely no IP owned by anyone.

eldomtom2 wrote:
IIRC none of GW’s paint names are actually trademarked.

They are not registered as trademarks, but under common law (US and UK) registration is not required to gain some ability to protest your trademarks.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:
Yes, and it is "Ultramarines" not "Ultramarine" which is a small but very important difference as a blue colour named after 40k Ultramarines is perfectly fine as trademark no matter how long the colour Ultramarine already exists

This is very arguable. Usually a business cannot trademark a common term, even with a slight tweak such as pluralization. I wouldn't bet heavily either way, but I think this is getting into the area where we would need an actual IP practitioner in the relevant jurisdiction to have a strong idea.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I can understand being a bit concerned about "Carcharodon Grey" if you don't know that it refers to a shark, but GW going after anyone using "Ultramarine Blue" would be completely batgak insane when it's been a common paint name since forever.

Wow, there's a lot of words about something that does not seem fully understood.

Trademarks are, quite literally marks of trade, meaning all of the names, designs, colors, etc. that make up how a company does business. This is why I can't open up a coffee shop and call in Starbucks Coffee, but it's also why I can't start a package delivery company and use the exact same shade of brown UPS does, or why I can't open any business with the name General Electric.

Trademarks can be registered or unregistered, when you try to register the trademark office will make sure it is unique, not generic, and otherwise acceptable. The rules explicitly preclude trademarking a descriptive word, such as "creamy" for yogurt, which is why ultramarine blue cannot be trademarked. Fanciful words, meaning words that are made up, are the best for trademarking, hence Orruks and XV-88.

The more widespread a trademark is, the more it can push other uses out of the market. A company like GE could probably preclude any business from using those words as it's name. A business like, say, Privateer Press, might not be able to stop another business that is in a different industry. As anybody that has googled Armorcast, you get a couple of different businesses.

So, GW could have trademark protection for Charcarodon Grey if they had made that paint color, and then nobody else could use it. They did not, and have slept on their chance. (notably, because Charcarodon is not a normal descriptive for colors, paints, etc. it would likely be seen as a "suggestive" rather than "descriptive" name. https://www.uspto.gov/trademarks/basics/strong-trademarks

It looks like they're running out of stretch goals...

At $550K backers at the Apprentice pledge and above receive 3 free empty Two Thin Coats paints bottles so they can mix their very own custom triad!

Wow, if you can't be bothered to buy empty bottles by the dozen or get them shipped from China, those 3x empty TTC bottles have a value of up to £0.50 each! Amazing!

techsoldaten wrote:

Spoiler:

 GoldenHorde wrote:
Damn I wonder how all those salty out of touch detractors got it so wrong.
I mean they have postcounts way way higher than me, I guess "you only have 9 posts" is not an argument.

Hehe as I said the market will decide.

Eh. Let detractors detract, people get off on sharing their thoughts.

It's valid to say the market is oversaturated with paint lines. It's also valid to say there are paint junkies who will try anything to up their game. It's clear they're less vocal, we're getting a taste of their enthusiasm.

Duncan reminds me of Lester Bursley circa 2010. Lester's airbrush and wash tips inspired me to take my work up several levels. Duncan has a similar appeal, he's very consistent and the "two thin coats" motto always struck me as an admission of some of the drawbacks to Citadel paints. Not that they're hopelessly defective, but that technique is important for achieving good results.

Maybe I'm naive, but I trust this line will reflect some introspection after his time working with Citadel paints. There's always ways to make something better, and I'm looking forward to working with them.

Two thin coast is not an admission of drawback. It's simply how you usually get a better result, no matter the paint line, or individual paint consistency issues. It's usually said that two/three thin coats are better for a clean paint job than one undiluted layer. You have less of a chance of streaks or "blobbing" over tiny details. That way your further layers have a nice base to work on without, for example, streaks getting in the way of highlight layers and creating unwanted textures.

Thinned to that consistency (where you need two/three layers) paints also give you great control over their application (without being runny like washes) and are useful for layering (highlights and shading) due to not covering fully. That "motto" has been a thing decades before Duncan made videos for GW and is one of the first tips a new painter tends to get. He made it his trademark in his videos and it's a good idea to instill in newbie painters. A bit of transparency is generally a feature and if somebody wants to get a easy/simple coverage very quickly then a very cheap airbrush could probably be a good investment to save time and get a clean basecoat coat (even if it's a bit of an upfront investment) because it doesn't rely on a specific paint (or paint line) to do that job (and delivers exceptionally smooth coverage in a fraction of the time).

On the side of the viability of this paint line. There's nothing in this line of paints that'd be useful for me. I simply have no use for that type of "triads" and it seems to be aimed at painters who like such a shading system. I am/was still not sure another line of paints would be that useful but I'm happy if it works out for them. And the kickstarter seems to be doing exceptionally well. We'll have to see how it turns out.

My one worry is that the kickstarter might unintentioanlly end up on the "pre-order something limited" side of kickstarter patterns like with those projects where the people who really want something get it early and a bit cheaper but where demand ends up drying up after that. The kickstarter money should give them some financial breathing room, hopefully until the people who have pre-bought it run out of paint and need more if that's the bulk of their audience.

I do wonder if they already have some sort of connections to stores to sell their lines despite the kickstarter "financing" it. Relying on kickstarter and your own online sales might be a bit too limited of an approach for a paint line but I also haven't read about their plans so they might have mentioned something about their plans for the future somewhere else.

Ghaz wrote:From Wikipedia:

The name derives from Middle Latin ultramarinus, literally "beyond the sea" because it was imported from Asia by sea.

GW named their 'Ultramarines' after the color Ultramarine, a name which has been in use for centuries.

I think the joke was that GW named them Ultramarines, after the colour, while giving then a slightly different tone that's decidedly not ultramarine, the named colour (the actual colour being a bit darker and purplish).

Three empty bottles feels like a joke Christmas present from a step-parent who hates you

you kind of hope that there's maybe some kind of an inner joke, whereby your real present is concealed somewhere in the packaging

but no it's just three empty bottles

 Polonius wrote:

Wow, there's a lot of words about something that does not seem fully understood.

I will fully admit I am not a lawyer (and basically did in my previous post), yet you didn't seem to add anything contradictory to what I said? What you said in your post was touched on in my post when I said...

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
Sure, but Duncan isn't advertising a line of Space Marines, he's advertising a line of paints.

...

Maybe if GW had released a paint called Carcharodon <something> it might be a bad idea

Storm in a teacup I'd say, whether or not Duncan specifically got permission from GW I doubt he'd have any problem with any of his colour names.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Mario wrote:

Ghaz wrote:From Wikipedia:

The name derives from Middle Latin ultramarinus, literally "beyond the sea" because it was imported from Asia by sea.

GW named their 'Ultramarines' after the color Ultramarine, a name which has been in use for centuries.

I think the joke was that GW named them Ultramarines, after the colour, while giving then a slightly different tone that's decidedly not ultramarine, the named colour (the actual colour being a bit darker and purplish).

I thought Ultramarines were roughly the colour you get if you painted the colour Ultramarine over a white canvas?

I dunno, I'm neither an Ultramarines player nor an artist, lol. Maybe they're closer to Cobalt?

Honestly, the specific colour of Ultramarines has drifted all over the place depending on who has been painting them over the years, much like the rest of the chapters.

At the end of the day GW can't trademark the word. Beyond that the paint line isn't even using Ultramarine, just Marine, which is a reference to the ocean and a perfectly acceptable word to use to describe a blue colour.

Mario wrote:

techsoldaten wrote:

Spoiler:

 GoldenHorde wrote:
Damn I wonder how all those salty out of touch detractors got it so wrong.
I mean they have postcounts way way higher than me, I guess "you only have 9 posts" is not an argument.

Hehe as I said the market will decide.

Eh. Let detractors detract, people get off on sharing their thoughts.

It's valid to say the market is oversaturated with paint lines. It's also valid to say there are paint junkies who will try anything to up their game. It's clear they're less vocal, we're getting a taste of their enthusiasm.

Duncan reminds me of Lester Bursley circa 2010. Lester's airbrush and wash tips inspired me to take my work up several levels. Duncan has a similar appeal, he's very consistent and the "two thin coats" motto always struck me as an admission of some of the drawbacks to Citadel paints. Not that they're hopelessly defective, but that technique is important for achieving good results.

Maybe I'm naive, but I trust this line will reflect some introspection after his time working with Citadel paints. There's always ways to make something better, and I'm looking forward to working with them.

Two thin coast is not an admission of drawback. It's simply how you usually get a better result, no matter the paint line, or individual paint consistency issues. It's usually said that two/three thin coats are better for a clean paint job than one undiluted layer. You have less of a chance of streaks or "blobbing" over tiny details. That way your further layers have a nice base to work on without, for example, streaks getting in the way of highlight layers and creating unwanted textures.

...

Thank you for explaining paint, it was a mystery to me. You're very generous, going into such detail.

Like I said, technique is important for achieving good results. Duncan's GW videos put a particular emphasis on that point, take from it what you will.

Pretty sure this line will be judged by it's whites and yellows. Those seem to be the ones GW has the most trouble with.

 Ian Sturrock wrote:
Three empty bottles feels like a joke Christmas present from a step-parent who hates you

you kind of hope that there's maybe some kind of an inner joke, whereby your real present is concealed somewhere in the packaging

but no it's just three empty bottles

I took it as exactly that. Hey, the campaign was more successful than we expected, we've run out of rewards for stretch goals! Have some empty bottles.

The next stretch goal is a blood effect paint. Seems more useful.