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 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
And...the Kill Rig is probably the bigger problem...

Haven't seen that one yet. Wanna share Daed? What's so problematic about it?

T8 W16 3+/6++

Melee - 6 S8 AP2 D2, 4 S5 AP1, 4 S7 AP2 D3

+1 to hit Monster/Vehicle

Shooting -
1 S8 AP2 D3 - reroll hits vs V/M - if a V/M suffers wounds on a 4+ they can't move outside of 12" from this model
D3 S9 AP3 D6 - autohit
D6 DS6 AP1 D2 - ooLOS ( has TFC stratagems )

Ramshackle
Transport 10 / Open Topped
Reroll charges

Cast 2 powers / deny 1

Frazzle - WC6 - each enemy unit in 9" takes D3 MW on 4+

This is also a character able to take a trait and a relic, so if there aren't restrictions it will have a 4++.

190 points

Drukhari's win rate is falling, Marines seem to be hoving at the midline, death guard is hovering at the midline, Dark angels are there too. It looks like Ad Mech may be the top spot, but I think small changes to Lucius and the 4+ shooting strat will likely fix that (though at the most recent event on 40k stats, a mars list took second, so that's cool).

I don't think the situation is as doom and gloom as people make it out to be. And honestly, the biggest offenders arent the entire codex, with each situation, its one or two entries (be them strats or data sheets) that seem to be a bit above the curve.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
And...the Kill Rig is probably the bigger problem...

Haven't seen that one yet. Wanna share Daed? What's so problematic about it?

T8 W16 3+/6++

Melee - 6 S8 AP2 D2, 4 S5 AP1, 4 S7 AP2 D3

+1 to hit Monster/Vehicle

Shooting -
1 S8 AP2 D3 - reroll hits vs V/M - if a V/M suffers wounds on a 4+ they can't move outside of 12" from this model
D3 S9 AP3 D6 - autohit
D6 DS6 AP1 D2 - ooLOS ( has TFC stratagems )

Ramshackle
Transport 10 / Open Topped
Reroll charges

Cast 2 powers / deny 1

Frazzle - WC6 - each enemy unit in 9" takes D3 MW on 4+

This is also a character able to take a trait and a relic, so if there aren't restrictions it will have a 4++.

190 points

All of THAT is 190 PPM? That's cheaper than my Sicaran. And it's a character? What's the BS/WS and ranges on those guns?

Seabass wrote:
Drukhari's win rate is falling, Marines seem to be hoving at the midline, death guard is hovering at the midline, Dark angels are there too. It looks like Ad Mech may be the top spot, but I think small changes to Lucius and the 4+ shooting strat will likely fix that (though at the most recent event on 40k stats, a mars list took second, so that's cool).

I don't think the situation is as doom and gloom as people make it out to be. And honestly, the biggest offenders arent the entire codex, with each situation, its one or two entries (be them strats or data sheets) that seem to be a bit above the curve.

and it;s not like EVERY new codex is more powerful then the last, otherwise the current top of the Meta would be Sisters of Battle

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
And...the Kill Rig is probably the bigger problem...

Haven't seen that one yet. Wanna share Daed? What's so problematic about it?

T8 W16 3+/6++

Melee - 6 S8 AP2 D2, 4 S5 AP1, 4 S7 AP2 D3

+1 to hit Monster/Vehicle

Shooting -
1 S8 AP2 D3 - reroll hits vs V/M - if a V/M suffers wounds on a 4+ they can't move outside of 12" from this model
D3 S9 AP3 D6 - autohit
D6 DS6 AP1 D2 - ooLOS ( has TFC stratagems )

Ramshackle
Transport 10 / Open Topped
Reroll charges

Cast 2 powers / deny 1

Frazzle - WC6 - each enemy unit in 9" takes D3 MW on 4+

This is also a character able to take a trait and a relic, so if there aren't restrictions it will have a 4++.

190 points

All of THAT is 190 PPM? That's cheaper than my Sicaran. And it's a character? What's the BS/WS and ranges on those guns?

What am I missing? That's a lot of neat abilities, but it also looks pretty comparable to a Leman Russ defensively before you factor in invulns. (Where is that 4++ coming from?) And a lot of those tricks seem to be short-ranged meaning you probably get at least one or two turns to kill it before it can bring everything to bear.

Wyldhunt wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
And...the Kill Rig is probably the bigger problem...

Haven't seen that one yet. Wanna share Daed? What's so problematic about it?

T8 W16 3+/6++

Melee - 6 S8 AP2 D2, 4 S5 AP1, 4 S7 AP2 D3

+1 to hit Monster/Vehicle

Shooting -
1 S8 AP2 D3 - reroll hits vs V/M - if a V/M suffers wounds on a 4+ they can't move outside of 12" from this model
D3 S9 AP3 D6 - autohit
D6 DS6 AP1 D2 - ooLOS ( has TFC stratagems )

Ramshackle
Transport 10 / Open Topped
Reroll charges

Cast 2 powers / deny 1

Frazzle - WC6 - each enemy unit in 9" takes D3 MW on 4+

This is also a character able to take a trait and a relic, so if there aren't restrictions it will have a 4++.

190 points

All of THAT is 190 PPM? That's cheaper than my Sicaran. And it's a character? What's the BS/WS and ranges on those guns?

What am I missing? That's a lot of neat abilities, but it also looks pretty comparable to a Leman Russ defensively before you factor in invulns. (Where is that 4++ coming from?) And a lot of those tricks seem to be short-ranged meaning you probably get at least one or two turns to kill it before it can bring everything to bear.

Well, it's a LOT for 190 PPM. But if it can't get that 4++ it will die fairly easily.

Hey Daed! Where's the 4++ coming from? The Badmoons warlord trait? Can a Beastsnagga unit have that?

Remember how people were talking about a "Golden Age of 40k" right before the DE release?

...yeah, nobody's saying that any more. Kinda says it all.

But let's not distract attention with conspiracy theories. The problem is they release unbalanced junk, speculating about their motives - i.e. whether it's incompetence or malice - is only useful for figuring out how to address the problem. And unless GW tells us, we'll probably never know, so it's not really helpful at all.

Unless people hold GW to a higher standard, nothing's going to change. They're certainly not going to hold themselves to that higher standard themselves, without the community holding their feet to the fire.

Wait, was someone calling 9th edition prior to Drukhari a Golden Age for the game? None of my non-loyalist marine armies felt that way.

Wyldhunt wrote:
Wait, was someone calling 9th edition prior to Drukhari a Golden Age for the game? None of my non-loyalist marine armies felt that way.

Someone on Dakka asked if we were having a golden age of 40K a while back. Lemme check...

Here it is, from April 8th; it's because it was the topic of a podcast that had gone out around that time.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/797464.page

In fairness, the 9th ed codexes (especially ignoring Drukhari and Ad Mech) were pretty good for internal balance and feel pretty solid against each other. A variety of builds and healthy competition (disregarding the older codexes).

Ad Mech and Drukhari are unacceptable, clearly.

People jump to conclusions based on data sheets. How often are combat units problematic? Wait and see...

I disagree with the OP. The only real broken release in this edition was the Drukhari codex and that was because people refused to adjust their lists to counter it and a couple of unintentional broken combos. Now that people finally coped with the fact that tailoring against something that isn't SM is not a sin and those broken combos have been FAQed not even that codex is broken anymore. Anything else, including the last releases (Mech and Sororitas) are definitely not broken. Orks have not been released yet but 75% of the rules have been leaked and they look quite bad on paper. Like worse than using the 8th codex.

yukishiro1 wrote:
Remember how people were talking about a "Golden Age of 40k" right before the DE release?

...yeah, nobody's saying that any more. Kinda says it all.

Honestly without the intention to be or sound catty, I'm having the most fun since 4th edition and my local scene is flourishing. Just started a 13 player Crusade campaign this week and (the initial) player attention for it is higher than for regular games even.

With all the flaws here and there, it is a Golden Age for my local scene, after being basically dead for many years in the past.

a_typical_hero wrote:

yukishiro1 wrote:
Remember how people were talking about a "Golden Age of 40k" right before the DE release?

...yeah, nobody's saying that any more. Kinda says it all.

Honestly without the intention to be or sound catty, I'm having the most fun since 4th edition and my local scene is flourishing. Just started a 13 player Crusade campaign this week and (the initial) player attention for it is higher than for regular games even.

With all the flaws here and there, it is a Golden Age for my local scene, after being basically dead for many years in the past.

Also the golden age refers to new blood and players into the game, which is proably true.

On Mozorg, people are seriously overreacting to him. Almost all of the people whining about him haven't even read his rules properly.
- Defense wise he is T7, 3+/4++ -1 damage, 9 wounds, character, CAVALRY CHARACTER. Transfungus does nothing unless you have S7 and +1 to wound or a poison weapon that always wounds on 2+/3+
- Movement 10", 'ere we go
- He gets 3 Attacks at WS 1+ S7 AP-3 3 dmg and if any of those roll a wound roll of six, you deal 4 MW instead of regular damage. This is one extra MW over the vanilla Warboss on Squigosaur, by the way.
- He gets another 6+1 attacks at WS 1+ S7 AP-2 3 dmg, once again one more attack than a vanilla warboss
- He gets a Assault d3 S6 Ap-1 d3 dmg blast gun with regular ork BS 5+
- He is a WARBOSS, so you can't have another one in your detachment. He is also locked into the snakebites warlord trait which is getting back up on a 4+ with d3 wounds remaining.
- He is not a Specialist Lad, so you cannot have him in other clan's detachments.
- He cannot have relics because he is a named characters

So yes, it's a good character in an otherwise fairly meh clan. OP though? Not by a long run, there are much more powerful combatants bouncing around that you can't just splat by charging them with a decent melee unit.

On the kill rig - most up the uproar comes from the assumption that it can pick relics and warlord traits freely, something we really don't know anything about yet. A single line exempting it from relics and traits in the codex or FAQ and it drops down to the level of a battlewagon with deff rolla and zagzap kustom job. Never hear of that? Yeah, though so. Something all the people crying "but muh landraider" keep forgetting is that these ork vehicles always come with WS5+, so that silly harpoon combo for auto-killing fliers will only hit once in three turns and that lobba will generate a single hit on average.
Oh, and it doesn't have the squig keyword, for those trying to combo of that.
Last but not least, open topped on the rigs is probably just for consistency. There are no beastsnagga infantry units with good ranged weapons.

Mozrog is broken.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBkWP0UJz_4

 AnomanderRake wrote:
If GW deliberately breaks the game to sell new models new models would be way more consistently broken than they are. I think the OP is confusing incompetence with malice here; GW doesn't deliberately make new things too good, they accidentally make broken stuff simply by virtue of not really testing anything.

And that further states that GW is not a games company, it is a hobby company, games is a bi product. physical codex or rulebook is not worth the paper it is printed on as the text becomes invalid after 1-2 weeks. when you buy a physical book, you expect the text to be valid as written for minimum 6 months after release, idealy up to a year.

As a hobby company they do amazing stuff, overpriced but i guess nothing can be done about that when product popularity do not drop.
If one is after a solid game, avoid current GW.

 FrozenDwarf wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
If GW deliberately breaks the game to sell new models new models would be way more consistently broken than they are. I think the OP is confusing incompetence with malice here; GW doesn't deliberately make new things too good, they accidentally make broken stuff simply by virtue of not really testing anything.

And that further states that GW is not a games company, it is a hobby company, games is a bi product. physical codex or rulebook is not worth the paper it is printed on as the text becomes invalid after 1-2 weeks. when you buy a physical book, you expect the text to be valid as written for minimum 6 months after release, idealy up to a year.

As a hobby company they do amazing stuff, overpriced but i guess nothing can be done about that when product popularity do not drop.
If one is after a solid game, avoid current GW.

so should GW not issue FAQs for errors in their book then just so they can claim they're "completely valid"?

The problem is and has always been how GW handles codex production. To my knowledge codex still have varied writers. And here is where the trouble lies.

The design team needs to sit down and design all of the codex in succession. The same people every book.

That would not solve the issue in total, but it would go a long way to cutting out the obligatory overpowered-underpowered codex releases.

 p5freak wrote:
Mozrog is broken.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBkWP0UJz_4

That guy is a friggin' idiot and should be banned from ever talking about orks again.

 p5freak wrote:
Mozrog is broken.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBkWP0UJz_4

I like how he spits out things like "oh a 3+ save" and "and of course he's a character so can't even be targeted" with disgust. Such a clickbait disingenuous take

 p5freak wrote:
Mozrog is broken.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBkWP0UJz4

Don't give these idiots free coverage!

Gee, anyone remember when Dark Angels were broken? Or Mortarian would be an unkillable monster warping the entire meta? These knee jerk reactions never change, lol.

Out of all the new 9th edition codex we've seen 2 that could truly be called broken; DE and AM. And 1 that is a bit behind the pack (poor necrons, suffering the usual first codex in an edition treatment).

I'm not trying to defend GW, goodness knows they make stupid mistakes and release garbage rules all the time, but the title of this thread is way over the top.

Rihgu wrote:
Meanwhile, everybody else I've seen is lamenting that they're broken in the opposite direction. Not having Assault weapons seems like a huge nerf, in most people's eyes. To that extent... one character that does 4 MWs on 6s to wound... doesn't seem super strong at all?

Also keeping in mind the context of the ability is: All this does is make it so you dont get a save vs an AP-2 or AP-3 damage Flat 3 attack.

People are just looking at '4 mortal wounds' and losing their mind without actually realizing what the ability does. it's not like a random bonus MWs.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
And...the Kill Rig is probably the bigger problem...

Haven't seen that one yet. Wanna share Daed? What's so problematic about it?

T8 W16 3+/6++

Melee - 6 S8 AP2 D2, 4 S5 AP1, 4 S7 AP2 D3

+1 to hit Monster/Vehicle

Shooting -
1 S8 AP2 D3 - reroll hits vs V/M - if a V/M suffers wounds on a 4+ they can't move outside of 12" from this model
D3 S9 AP3 D6 - autohit
D6 DS6 AP1 D2 - ooLOS ( has TFC stratagems )

Ramshackle
Transport 10 / Open Topped
Reroll charges

Cast 2 powers / deny 1

Frazzle - WC6 - each enemy unit in 9" takes D3 MW on 4+

This is also a character able to take a trait and a relic, so if there aren't restrictions it will have a 4++.

190 points

All of THAT is 190 PPM? That's cheaper than my Sicaran. And it's a character? What's the BS/WS and ranges on those guns?

What am I missing? That's a lot of neat abilities, but it also looks pretty comparable to a Leman Russ defensively before you factor in invulns. (Where is that 4++ coming from?) And a lot of those tricks seem to be short-ranged meaning you probably get at least one or two turns to kill it before it can bring everything to bear.

Well, it's a LOT for 190 PPM. But if it can't get that 4++ it will die fairly easily.

Hey Daed! Where's the 4++ coming from? The Badmoons warlord trait? Can a Beastsnagga unit have that?

From a relic, BUT the app doesn't indicate he can't take it where the book might.

The usual WS3 BS5. Ranges are 12/24/48.

 p5freak wrote:
Mozrog is broken.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TBkWP0UJz_4

That was hard to listen to, not going to lie. Even if we are looking at a very competitive choice here, everything about the video from it's thumbnail, to the script and the way he is presenting it is super annoying and clickbaity exaggeration.

 Fergie0044 wrote:
Gee, anyone remember when Dark Angels were broken? Or Mortarian would be an unkillable monster warping the entire meta? These knee jerk reactions never change, lol.

Out of all the new 9th edition codex we've seen 2 that could truly be called broken; DE and AM. And 1 that is a bit behind the pack (poor necrons, suffering the usual first codex in an edition treatment).

I'm not trying to defend GW, goodness knows they make stupid mistakes and release garbage rules all the time, but the title of this thread is way over the top.

Crickets on Sisters as well ( outside Morvenn, but one model does not an army make....unless it's a titan...or you only took one model... )

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

Wyldhunt wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
And...the Kill Rig is probably the bigger problem...

Haven't seen that one yet. Wanna share Daed? What's so problematic about it?

T8 W16 3+/6++

Melee - 6 S8 AP2 D2, 4 S5 AP1, 4 S7 AP2 D3

+1 to hit Monster/Vehicle

Shooting -
1 S8 AP2 D3 - reroll hits vs V/M - if a V/M suffers wounds on a 4+ they can't move outside of 12" from this model
D3 S9 AP3 D6 - autohit
D6 DS6 AP1 D2 - ooLOS ( has TFC stratagems )

Ramshackle
Transport 10 / Open Topped
Reroll charges

Cast 2 powers / deny 1

Frazzle - WC6 - each enemy unit in 9" takes D3 MW on 4+

This is also a character able to take a trait and a relic, so if there aren't restrictions it will have a 4++.

190 points

All of THAT is 190 PPM? That's cheaper than my Sicaran. And it's a character? What's the BS/WS and ranges on those guns?

What am I missing? That's a lot of neat abilities, but it also looks pretty comparable to a Leman Russ defensively before you factor in invulns. (Where is that 4++ coming from?) And a lot of those tricks seem to be short-ranged meaning you probably get at least one or two turns to kill it before it can bring everything to bear.

Well, it's a LOT for 190 PPM. But if it can't get that 4++ it will die fairly easily.

Hey Daed! Where's the 4++ coming from? The Badmoons warlord trait? Can a Beastsnagga unit have that?

From a relic, BUT the app doesn't indicate he can't take it where the book might.

The usual WS3 BS5. Ranges are 12/24/48.

Thanks Daed. So not that impressive if it can't get that 4++. BUT, it's still a lot for 190 PPM when compared to similar units. That's the same price as a Leman Russ with heavy bolter sponsons, but with a 6++, and 4 more wounds. Doesn't mean it's undercosted, but it could mean some of those similar units are overcosted. Especially compared to similar units that cost more points and CP. But that doesn't make it broken.

The only thing impressive about the White Squig dude is that he can get back up on a 4+. My clawlord averages more damage, and 10 Warp Talons with Prey On the Weak can shred him. So no "broken" there either.

Cj4594 wrote:
Has anyone noticed that every time a codex drops, it's broken ASF. I'm looking at the new Ork crap, and they got a character that does flat 4 mortal wounds on 6s to wound. Everything feels over the top these days.

It feels like they're making broken stuff to sell models, then fixing them once the hype is gone.

Yeah, like the new DG character.

Or the SoB Castigator and Paragon Warsuits.

Or the SM Gladiator or new Fast Attack vehicles (I don't remember their names).

Or the new DE Wyches (/s ).

Or the recently released AD Mech Vanguards, Rangers and Ironstriders (/s ).

In case you didn't understand, I'm being sarcastic.

You are a buffoon.

From someone who doesn’t actively play at the moment, here are my thoughts.

So far, the 9th Ed Codexes seem to be pretty decent. Not just in terms of subjective power levels between the various forces, but none really limiting unit selection to the same few spammed.

This is really quite good for the game. Sure it sucks if you’re lumbered with an 8th Ed Codex, but the ongoing trend suggests you’ll get your time in the sun in due course.

Specifically, people being able to make decent armies out of relatively randomly selected units is very good for the game, as it encourages a wider variety of army builds and play styles to encounter. The greater that variety, the ever harder it becomes to simple come up with The Best List Evarr.

Example? 7th Ed Imperial Knights. Most forces struggled against them, because nobody else could field an army of super heavies, let alone ones which could smash your face in with shooting and close combat.

They were one of the hardest armies to counter, and for that reason, one of the worst armies in the game. Unless you tooled up specifically for their threat, you struggled.

Similarly, my pet peeve Craftworld Eldar. Noted for very specific rock hard lists, and everything else in their codex being awful. Yes, the good lists were seemingly the bane of tournaments, but it was still a crap Codex because it’s internal design was so limiting. The real kick in the teeth for everyone is that each subsequent Codex completely changed which units were actually worth taking. CWE players suffered from that, as if a player wanted to remain competitive, it was pretty much Go And Buy A Whole New Army.

Other examples include unforeseen and well beardy combos, such as the Loyal 32 and Smash Captains, which exploited cross-codex army design, and was fairly quickly squelched by errata.

But in 9th Ed? So far those problems seem to be going away. Yes there will always be some builds considered better than others, especially for fans of serious number crunching. But the gap between Best and Average does seem to be narrowing.

As for Orks? Right now, they’re an unknown quantity, and it’s all based purely on theory hammer - at least until jammy sods like me get their Beast Snaggas on Saturday and can start contrasting and comparing. Even then, the truth won’t out until a decent numbers of games have been played globally, and that’s going to take a few weeks at least to get appreciable reports.

Finally, there is almost always a “the latest Codex is the most broken” type reactions when a new Codex lands. This can be a mix of people just not knowing the rules, or the Codex offering new options people aren’t used to facing, an adapting tactics takes a bit of trial and error.

I'm curious if Sisters end up doing better over time, kind of like how Dark Angels did. There's a lot of stuff in that book and the tricks are not on the surface.

The DE and AM books are the true indictments on 9e so far. Yeah, the DE win rate has fallen. But I pretty adamantly believe it's not because DE is less scary, but because Admech have sucked all the air out of the room. You can't really have 2 pre-nerf IH win rate factions out there at one time, one has to cannibalize the other. It's not like the situation can't be salvaged, but the only non-stupid answer is for the next several codices to be pre-DE power level, and for (additional) nerfs for DE and AM.

ETA: I have no opinion on if Orks are more like Sisters, or more like AM. I haven't paid enough attention. I think on the surface, they aren't as outrageous as the worst offenders (as others have pointed out, that 4 MW thing isn't that big of a deal in all practicality.)