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SemperMortis wrote:

 koooaei wrote:

Let's make it more interesting. Why don't we hold a bet. If orks get in at least 1/2 of the tops in metawatch (currrently there are 0) after the official release, you send me a blastajet. If not, I send you something of comparable price that you want.

This way we can end this arguement, that's obviously not leading anywhere. Didn't mean to insult, just talking straight.

Metawatch as in FLG? Hard pass, those idiots rated so many things incorrectly that they are laughable. Pretty sure they employ Reece for instance, and his "The stompa will be great" argument is still hilarious.

They're just posting the results of large official tourneys. Their competence is absolutely irrelevant. I think that if you're sure in your words and orks are indeed the worst of the codexes released in 9 in power level, you should accept the bet.

 Insectum7 wrote:
What makes Orks look like they're a melee army is the fact that they have good melee stats in comparison to their poor shooting stats. 2 attacks base. WS 4 vs. BS 2. Fairly indicative of a theme the army is trying to push, imo.

Sorry, but that's one of the worst metrics to determine whether someone is good at combat. By that metric both marines and eldar are vastly better melee armies and should get their shooting taken away to compensate.

Whether an army or a unit is good at something is not determined by their ability to hit.

If it can't hit anything, then it can't be good at shoting?

A unit who hits on 2+ with a single shot is worse at shooting than one who hits on 5+ but gets 20 shots.

Looking at the BS and WS alone to determine where the unit excells in is too simple.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
What makes Orks look like they're a melee army is the fact that they have good melee stats in comparison to their poor shooting stats. 2 attacks base. WS 4 vs. BS 2. Fairly indicative of a theme the army is trying to push, imo.

Sorry, but that's one of the worst metrics to determine whether someone is good at combat. By that metric both marines and eldar are vastly better melee armies and should get their shooting taken away to compensate.

Whether an army or a unit is good at something is not determined by their ability to hit.

Marines and Eldar get most of their kills from shooting though, don't they?
What is more lethal, Ork shooting or Marine shooting?
What is scarier, getting charged by a mob of Orks, or by Marines?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

a_typical_hero wrote:
A unit who hits on 2+ with a single shot is worse at shooting than one who hits on 5+ but gets 20 shots.

Looking at the BS and WS alone to determine where the unit excells in is too simple.

True, but Ork weapons aren't even that strong or have that much range. By the time you're in effective range with Orks you might as well charge in.
Compare this to a faction like Tau where they're in effective range at the start of the game and can pack a punch.

You guys need to stop making generalisations.

Are you more scared to get charged by a squad of Sanguinary Guard, or by a squad of Shoota boyz?

Would you rather get hit by a Thunderfire cannon, or a squad of Lootaz?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

What is scarier, getting charged by a mob of Orks, or by Marines?

By marines, hands down .

a_typical_hero wrote:
You guys need to stop making generalisations.

Are you more scared to get charged by a squad of Sanguinary Guard, or by a squad of Shoota boyz?

Would you rather get hit by a Thunderfire cannon, or a squad of Lootaz?

But are those shota boys even considered the core of an ork army, or are they more like poxwalkers in DG. With the real core of the lists being the elite units. Because 15 kommandos charing at something in cover do well enough. Same way while boys shoting is rather bad, the real ork shoting never really came from them. It was stuff like the artilery, and now is probably the flyers. Marines charging have more impact, because if you take blade guard of assault intercessors they are the core of your list. And they often have to do everything in all match ups. For orks, something like shoota boys, feels more like, 10 dudes hugging an objective and a tax to take the good stuff.

Wether something is core or not is irrelevant.
Your point was that a unit with bad BS is bad at shooting.

Only looking at that single value ignores everything else that will impact the efficiency.

Point costs, auras, stratagems, weapon strength, AP, damage, number of shots availability, faction traits, faction subtraits and whatever else I'm missing right now.

The other point (not from you) is packing the whole faction together and is asking the question who got the scarier shooting/melee.

As proven by simple examples, you can't generalize, because not every unit of that faction is better at one thing than the other faction.

And then this is not taking into account that subfactions can shift what units are good for a given faction.

 Blackie wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

What is scarier, getting charged by a mob of Orks, or by Marines?

By marines, hands down .

Really? How many attacks do they have on the charge these days?
Wait, so if Orks aren't that dangerous in melee anymore and they aren't even that good at shooting in comparison to other factions, what are they good at?

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

What is scarier, getting charged by a mob of Orks, or by Marines?

By marines, hands down .

Really? How many attacks do they have on the charge these days?

Blood claws have 4 attacks on the charge, all with AP-1 and even AP-2 since turn 3. Otherwise they just have 3, unless already locked in combat. Always hitting on 2s unless locked in combat from a previous turn. Grey hunters are basically the same, just with 3 attacks everytime unless already locked in combat, in that case they'll have 2, like blood claws. Most of the times blood claws have 4A hitting on 2s with AP-2, grey hunters 3A hitting on 2s with AP-2. Assault intercessors should have similar stats, but I don't play primaris.

Boyz have 3 attacks each at AP-1, hitting on 3s. 4 attacks in two turns if a waaagh is called. I wrote if because I'm typically calling the speedwaaagh instead. Shoota boyz have 2 attacks with no AP, 3 for two turns if a waaagh is called.

Let's not even start comparing dedicated melee units from both armies.

 Blackie wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

What is scarier, getting charged by a mob of Orks, or by Marines?

By marines, hands down .

Really? How many attacks do they have on the charge these days?

Blood claws have 4 attacks on the charge, all with AP-1 and even AP-2 since turn 3. Otherwise they just have 3, unless already locked in combat. Always hitting on 2s unless locked in combat from a previous turn. Grey hunters are basically the same, just with 3 attacks everytime unless already locked in combat, in that case they'll have 2, like blood claws. Most of the times blood claws have 4A hitting on 2s with AP-2, grey hunters 3A hitting on 2s with AP-2. Assault intercessors should have similar stats, but I don't play primaris.

Boyz have 3 attacks each at AP-1, hitting on 3s. 4 attacks in two turns if a waaagh is called. I wrote if because I'm typically calling the speedwaaagh instead. Shoota boyz have 2 attacks with no AP, 3 for two turns if a waaagh is called.

Let's not even start comparing dedicated melee units from both armies.

Perhaps I should have specified which marines I'm referring to, as Space Wolves are one of the more melee orientated chapters. But yeah that is pretty damning.
Wow poor Orks, not even impressive in melee anymore. I remember back in 4th ed Orks being pretty nasty on the charge, generating more attacks than pretty much any other faction. The marine favoritism is real I guess.

Everyone has assault intercessors though. They have 3A base with AP-1 or AP-2 since turn 3. And a 4th attack almost granted thanks to Shock Assault unless already locked in combat. Hitting on 3s like orks but still much better than them, having more attacks and better AP.

 Blackie wrote:
Everyone has assault intercessors though. They have 3A base with AP-1 or AP-2 since turn 3. And a 4th attack almost granted thanks to Shock Assault unless already locked in combat. Hitting on 3s like orks but still much better than them, having more attacks and better AP.

Ok, but what would the Ork equivalent be? A nob squad?
If they surpass even a nob squad or the new snagga boyz then Orks got a raw deal.

epronovost wrote:


Right now, I have to agree that shoota boyz are very bad with Bad Moon making them just bad (or at best very niche). What I will disagree with though is how you evaluate the worth of a unit as its pure killing output. A unit isn't good only because it can kill its worth in point, especially not in an objective based game. It's worth something if it can accomplish an objective and can trade fairly well against its mirror in the opposite army. The "kill your point to gain your worth" system, while not completely wrongheaded, is how you evaluate something like a glass hammer. It's how I would evaluate the strength of a Dark Eldar Succubus or even little Wytches for example and right now they are basically to glass hammer what orgasm is to sex, but that's not how I would evaluate the overwhelming majority of troop choice units.

You are correct in your evaluation of a unit. The problem being that "objective holding" and other scoring is done easily across all troops choices. 5 Tac Marines are faster and more durable vs small arms fire and can do the exact same job as the shoota boyz in terms of scoring. Those Marines though are T4 3+ save with 2 wounds. To shift 5 Marines off an objective in the shooting phase it takes 90 bolter shots. To shift 10 Shootaboyz off an objective it takes 54 bolter shots. So as far as scoring goes, those shoota boyz are slower and less durable, and that is before you factor in morale.

Shoota boyz were intended to be an Ok ish melee unit that softens up its target with shooting before they crash into melee. Now? They can't advance and shoot, and there dmg output has not changed since like 3rd edition while durability has gone up dramatically (Orkz T5, Marines 2Wounds etc).

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Why aren't you charging after shooting? If you're close enough to use the better Dakka profile you're probably close enough to try to attempt a charge.

Couple reasons come to mind. First off, if I am close enough to assault a target...I likely don't want to shoot it since they might pull models from the front and increase charge range. Second, if i am going to take a unit whose purpose is to get stuck in....why wouldn't I take Choppa boyz? Dakka range shoota boys (10 of them) get 30 shots, 10 hits, 5 wounds and 1.6 dmg vs T4 3+, in CC they are 20 attacks, 13.3 hits 6.6 wounds and 2.2dmg. Total of 3.8dmg for 90pts The choppa boyz are 10 shots at 12' range for 3.3 hits 1.67 wounds and 0.5dmg while in CC its 30 attacks, 20 hits, 10 wounds and 5dmg total of 5.5dmg.

 Insectum7 wrote:
What makes Orks look like they're a melee army is the fact that they have good melee stats in comparison to their poor shooting stats. 2 attacks base. WS 4 vs. BS 2. Fairly indicative of a theme the army is trying to push, imo.

They don't have good melee stats though. Intercessors have the same stats and are considerably better at shooting. And their shooting is ranged 30 compared to the shoota boyz 18, (ironically same number of shots at those ranges as well).

 koooaei wrote:


They're just posting the results of large official tourneys. Their competence is absolutely irrelevant. I think that if you're sure in your words and orks are indeed the worst of the codexes released in 9 in power level, you should accept the bet.

No, they are analyzing the data and coming up with a list based upon their own interpretation of that data. And almost every single time a new codex comes out they receive a bump up in tier list until the meta adjusts. And on top of all of that, you are asking me to take part in a bet based upon a metric I have no inherent trust in and whose previous analysis was that the Stompa would be amazing in 8th edition. So yeah, that's not going to happen. And finally, my opinion is that orkz are NOT going to be top tier but that we will have a build that can compete, just not as well as we currently are, in other words this codex made the competitive level of orkz LOWER not higher.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

Marines and Eldar get most of their kills from shooting though, don't they?
What is more lethal, Ork shooting or Marine shooting?
What is scarier, getting charged by a mob of Orks, or by Marines?

What is more lethal ork shooting or Marine shooting? Well, in 8th and 9th up until now Orkz would routinely take full batteries of mek gunz, competitive lists took 18 of them. Orkz before they were nerfed into the ground would take 25 Lootas and SAG Big Mekz. So I would say Ork shooting. Orkz even had not 1 but 2 stratagems to shoot twice.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
True, but Ork weapons aren't even that strong or have that much range. By the time you're in effective range with Orks you might as well charge in.
Compare this to a faction like Tau where they're in effective range at the start of the game and can pack a punch.

Again, not true, just most of our ranged weapons got beaten to death with nerf hammers. Shokk Attack gun is ranged 60, Smasha guns are 48, Kannon wagonz are 60, lootas are 48,
We had plenty of relatively competitive shooting units until they were tragically murdered by GW

Ork shooting was supposed to be inaccurate but devastating.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Everyone has assault intercessors though. They have 3A base with AP-1 or AP-2 since turn 3. And a 4th attack almost granted thanks to Shock Assault unless already locked in combat. Hitting on 3s like orks but still much better than them, having more attacks and better AP.

Ok, but what would the Ork equivalent be? A nob squad?
If they surpass even a nob squad or the new snagga boyz then Orks got a raw deal.

Nobz are 1ppm cheaper, have S5 and now T5 and have 3 attacks base, Ap-1 and a 4th attack from their CC weapon, hitting on 3s. Difference is the Marine is a 3+ and has a pistol that is dangerous as well. ....Ranged 18' pistol....but Shootas can't get ranged 24.

SemperMortis wrote:


Again, not true, just most of our ranged weapons got beaten to death with nerf hammers. Shokk Attack gun is ranged 60, Smasha guns are 48, Kannon wagonz are 60, lootas are 48,
We had plenty of relatively competitive shooting units until they were tragically murdered by GW

Fair enough. I never used SAG or the various artillery pieces so I wasn't sure about their efficacy.

SemperMortis wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Blackie wrote:
Everyone has assault intercessors though. They have 3A base with AP-1 or AP-2 since turn 3. And a 4th attack almost granted thanks to Shock Assault unless already locked in combat. Hitting on 3s like orks but still much better than them, having more attacks and better AP.

Ok, but what would the Ork equivalent be? A nob squad?
If they surpass even a nob squad or the new snagga boyz then Orks got a raw deal.

Nobz are 1ppm cheaper, have S5 and now T5 and have 3 attacks base, Ap-1 and a 4th attack from their CC weapon, hitting on 3s. Difference is the Marine is a 3+ and has a pistol that is dangerous as well. ....Ranged 18' pistol....but Shootas can't get ranged 24.

Yeah, that does sound like a raw deal. It's like Orktober all over again.

 Blackie wrote:
Everyone has assault intercessors though. They have 3A base with AP-1 or AP-2 since turn 3. And a 4th attack almost granted thanks to Shock Assault unless already locked in combat. Hitting on 3s like orks but still much better than them, having more attacks and better AP.

But they cost 19 points to the Boyz's 9.

90 points for 41 (with Waaagh) S4 AP-1 attacks isn't bad. Even better if Goths for the extra hits on 6s and +1 S on the charge.

The basic problem compared with say Wyches.
1.) Raiders are the best transport in the game - and 4-5 of them give any DE list some handy anti-tank. Trukks are... so-so as transports and bring essentially nothing else. (I mean if they do a new model, give it at least a twin big shoota. Preferably 2.)
2.) Wyches have a reasonably big bag of tricks - Boyz don't really get the same.
3.) Wyches are obviously more vulnerable with T3 if caught flat-footed to shooting - but popping 10 T5 6+ save models is not difficult for many armies. *In Combat* Wyches get their 4++ - which doesn't help hugely against lots of low S low AP attacks - but can skew well against the "S5 AP-3 2 damage" (anti-MEQ basically) damage profile attacks you often see on combat units. Orks are sort of inefficient to hit with those attacks - but they will fallover all the same (and then morale kicks in etc).

Tyel wrote:


But they cost 19 points to the Boyz's 9.

True, but they're also much more resilient and models that can swing in combat are capped anyway. So in practise my 10 Blood Claws do more damage than my 30 boyz on the charge. In a 10 vs 10 scenario, marines are definitely more expensive, twice as much, but they're likely to get in combat with less casualties and their shooting also means something: assault marines have native AP and BS3+ even with basic pistols, which now also have an impact in combat. They cost twice the points because they have better armour, they're less vulnerable to morale, have twice the wounds (which is superior than +1T) and they fire better, probably also better M stat if I remember correctly. They outperform boyz in everything, not just melee; that's why they cost much more.

I'm not saying boyz are bad (although I do think they're slightly more than a tax unit), only that marines are scarier in melee.

Possibly GW thinks that boys this edition aren't ment to be run in 30 man squads and trying to get in to firefights or melee.

Karol wrote:
Possibly GW thinks that boys this edition aren't ment to be run in 30 man squads and trying to get in to firefights or melee.

GW has been trying to kill hordes since 9th started bud.

 Blackie wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

What is scarier, getting charged by a mob of Orks, or by Marines?

By marines, hands down .

Really? How many attacks do they have on the charge these days?

Blood claws have 4 attacks on the charge, all with AP-1 and even AP-2 since turn 3. Otherwise they just have 3, unless already locked in combat. Always hitting on 2s unless locked in combat from a previous turn. Grey hunters are basically the same, just with 3 attacks everytime unless already locked in combat, in that case they'll have 2, like blood claws. Most of the times blood claws have 4A hitting on 2s with AP-2, grey hunters 3A hitting on 2s with AP-2. Assault intercessors should have similar stats, but I don't play primaris.

Boyz have 3 attacks each at AP-1, hitting on 3s. 4 attacks in two turns if a waaagh is called. I wrote if because I'm typically calling the speedwaaagh instead. Shoota boyz have 2 attacks with no AP, 3 for two turns if a waaagh is called.

Let's not even start comparing dedicated melee units from both armies.

Are we really comparing orks and marines one to one when you get two for each marine at the very least?

 Daedalus81 wrote:



Are we really comparing orks and marines one to one when you get two for each marine at the very least?

We were talking about who's scarier, marines or boyz in close combat? And since you can't have more than 10 guys fighting it doesn't matter who's cheaper. 10 marines deal more damage than 20+ orks, since half of those orks won't have the chance to do anything.

Cheaper but also easier to kill, and close to useless outside combat, never forget that. Melee for infantries is a 2nd or 3rd turn thing, units will likely have suffered casualties and marines are more than twice as tough. Boyz can go 2x10 in order to let everyone fight, but how easy is to cripple/delete those units compared to marines?

But that's not the point. The point was about who's scarier in assault. A unit of assault intercessors, or even some firstborn dudes like blood claws or boyz? The answer is definitely marines, hands down!

With melee dedicated units ratio is very close to 1:1, and guess who's scarier? A terminator/BG veteran or a meganob/nob with pk?

24 Old Boyz vs Grey Hunters

96 * .666 * .5 * .333 = 10.6

GH vs Old Boyz

31 * .833 * .5 = 12.9

=====================================

21 New Boyz vs Grey Hunters

63 * .666 * .5 * .5 = 10.5

21 New Boyz w/ Waaagh and Boss vs Grey Hunters

84 * .833 * .5 * .5 = 17.5

GH vs New Boyz

31 * .833 * .333 = 8.6

=====================================

New Boyz can basically wipe out the marines if you manage your field well, which should be doable with an advance and charge plus reroll charge. Old Boyz won't fail morale. New Boyz will lose 1 and then another 1.8 for a total loss of 11.4, which is less than the Old Boyz lost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
And since you can't have more than 10 guys fighting it doesn't matter who's cheaper.

You absolutely can have more than 10 in combat. Yes, your positioning and rolls are going to matter on how likely that will be.

But that's not the point. The point was about who's scarier in assault. A unit of assault intercessors, or even some firstborn dudes like blood claws or boyz? The answer is definitely marines, hands down!

They're equally scary.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
What makes Orks look like they're a melee army is the fact that they have good melee stats in comparison to their poor shooting stats. 2 attacks base. WS 4 vs. BS 2. Fairly indicative of a theme the army is trying to push, imo.

Sorry, but that's one of the worst metrics to determine whether someone is good at combat. By that metric both marines and eldar are vastly better melee armies and should get their shooting taken away to compensate.

Whether an army or a unit is good at something is not determined by their ability to hit.

I don't see how your interpretation of what I said makes any sense. Eldar and Marines have equal WS and BS. Orks have a clear emphasis on melee with their basic stats. And up until Primaris, the only other army with troops that had more base Attacks than 1 was Tyranids (genestealers/warriors), another army known for it's desire to meet in CC.

Tyel wrote:

1.) Raiders are the best transport in the game - and 4-5 of them give any DE list some handy anti-tank. Trukks are... so-so as transports and bring essentially nothing else. (I mean if they do a new model, give it at least a twin big shoota. Preferably 2.)

Actually, I would say that trukks, now being improved by the new ramshackle rule making them tougher to light anti-tank firepower and relatively cheap and with a more mild degradation chart (Raiders lose ballistic skills which is very bothering to them), are almost great. If they had the option to take a rockit launcha, which are now d3 shots, on the cheap (let say for 5 pts) instead of its big shoota, Trukk spam filled with slugga boyz and others would be an interesting tactic. Trukks even had the option for rokkit laucha during 4th and 5th edition if I remember well alas, no bit no option.

The good thing about current trukk is that a squad of 10 Goff slugga boyz with a nob with a power klaw plus one trukk is cheaper than 10 tactical marines all the while capable of moping the floor with them if they get the charge (which shouldn't be all that hard). While probably not a top competitive tool. This is definitely not a bad setup.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
And up until Primaris, the only other army with troops that had more base Attacks than 1 was Tyranids (genestealers/warriors), another army known for it's desire to meet in CC.

Ironically, Tyranids are also another army many people believe is designed for close combat, but is actually better at shooting especially right now.

epronovost wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
And up until Primaris, the only other army with troops that had more base Attacks than 1 was Tyranids (genestealers/warriors), another army known for it's desire to meet in CC.

Ironically, Tyranids are also another army many people believe is designed for close combat, but is actually better at shooting especially right now.

I'm sorta finding that to be true with my Nids, but I'm also not flush with painted CC optiins so I'm not reall a good judge of that. It is sad to see how rotten Genestealers appear to be at killing Marines though. It ain't right.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

24 Old Boyz vs Grey Hunters
96 * .666 * .5 * .333 = 10.6
GH vs Old Boyz
31 * .833 * .5 = 12.9
=====================================
21 New Boyz vs Grey Hunters
63 * .666 * .5 * .5 = 10.5
21 New Boyz w/ Waaagh and Boss vs Grey Hunters
84 * .833 * .5 * .5 = 17.5
GH vs New Boyz
31 * .833 * .333 = 8.6

=====================================

New Boyz can basically wipe out the marines if you manage your field well, which should be doable with an advance and charge plus reroll charge. Old Boyz won't fail morale. New Boyz will lose 1 and then another 1.8 for a total loss of 11.4, which is less than the Old Boyz lost.

Yep..on planet bowling ball where those 5' movement boyz walked across the board without being gutted. Even with aggressive deployment and an epic advance move, boyz are not a turn 1 threat. Heck, even with Da Jump they aren't a threat anymore thanks to the nerfs to WAAAAGH energy and the nerf to Evil Sunz +1 to charge. So what happens to those Grey Hunters when 10 intercessors unload on them? 3ish dmg, What happens to those orkz? 4.5 dead Boyz. Those boyz are now LD3 and have a 50% chance to lose even more boyz to morale, specifically 1 to failure and 2-3 to attrition.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Blackie wrote:
And since you can't have more than 10 guys fighting it doesn't matter who's cheaper.

You absolutely can have more than 10 in combat. Yes, your positioning and rolls are going to matter on how likely that will be.

But that's not the point. The point was about who's scarier in assault. A unit of assault intercessors, or even some firstborn dudes like blood claws or boyz? The answer is definitely marines, hands down!

They're equally scary.

No, they aren't. As blackie already covered, there are two events that happen before that CC happens. 1: The Orkz are gutted by ranged firepower because even T5 isn't hard to kill when its a 6+ save and 2: Morale will further gut those boyz because LD7 with no inherent mechanic to limit dmg beyond the double attrition modifier. And as previously mentioned, Marine infantry do not suffer from those same inherent problems. 1 of them (durability) is questionable because so many people bring AP weaponry now, but even than its still not that bad. and Morale...Marines don't have morale issues.

SemperMortis wrote:

Yep..on planet bowling ball where those 5' movement boyz walked across the board without being gutted. Even with aggressive deployment and an epic advance move, boyz are not a turn 1 threat. Heck, even with Da Jump they aren't a threat anymore thanks to the nerfs to WAAAAGH energy and the nerf to Evil Sunz +1 to charge. So what happens to those Grey Hunters when 10 intercessors unload on them? 3ish dmg, What happens to those orkz? 4.5 dead Boyz. Those boyz are now LD3 and have a 50% chance to lose even more boyz to morale, specifically 1 to failure and 2-3 to attrition.

Grey Hunters aren't a turn 1 threat either.

So what happens to those Grey Hunters when 10 intercessors unload on them? 3ish dmg, What happens to those orkz? 4.5 dead Boyz.

3.3 damage or 63 points as opposed to 4.5 * 9 = 40.5 points. Even if they lose 3 to morale they're still on roughly the same points.

This isn't the huge gap you're making it out to be.

 Insectum7 wrote:

epronovost wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
And up until Primaris, the only other army with troops that had more base Attacks than 1 was Tyranids (genestealers/warriors), another army known for it's desire to meet in CC.

Ironically, Tyranids are also another army many people believe is designed for close combat, but is actually better at shooting especially right now.

I'm sorta finding that to be true with my Nids, but I'm also not flush with painted CC optiins so I'm not reall a good judge of that. It is sad to see how rotten Genestealers appear to be at killing Marines though. It ain't right.

Indeed, Genestealer used to have the close combat profile of HQ characters in the old days of third and fourth edition. They would need, in my opinion, special rending claws that operate like powerswords and maybe an extra attack (with a point bump to make it all appropriate too). While Tyranids have good close combat options, they are often ampered by this idea that they are supposed to be "unskilled" (why the hell does an ork has more skills in close combat than a Haruspex whose sole purpose in existence is devouring stuff is beyond me).

 Daedalus81 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:

Yep..on planet bowling ball where those 5' movement boyz walked across the board without being gutted. Even with aggressive deployment and an epic advance move, boyz are not a turn 1 threat. Heck, even with Da Jump they aren't a threat anymore thanks to the nerfs to WAAAAGH energy and the nerf to Evil Sunz +1 to charge. So what happens to those Grey Hunters when 10 intercessors unload on them? 3ish dmg, What happens to those orkz? 4.5 dead Boyz. Those boyz are now LD3 and have a 50% chance to lose even more boyz to morale, specifically 1 to failure and 2-3 to attrition.

Grey Hunters aren't a turn 1 threat either.

more so than Choppa boyz, they at least get a 24' range weapon to go along with their close combat abilities.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

SemperMortis wrote:
So what happens to those Grey Hunters when 10 intercessors unload on them? 3ish dmg, What happens to those orkz? 4.5 dead Boyz.

3.3 damage or 63 points as opposed to 4.5 * 9 = 40.5 points. Even if they lose 3 to morale they're still on roughly the same points.

This isn't the huge gap you're making it out to be.

10 intercessors is 20 shots, 13.3 hits, 6.6 wounds and 3.3 dmg which is 1 dead Marine and 1 wounded Marine. Not 63pts of dmg. 3.3dmg would be 31.35pts or half what you thought it was. And those Orkz are either LD 3 or LD2 which means they most likely fail morale and than its 4.5 +1 + 1/6th so at a minimum you are talking 5.5 and likely going to 7.5 which means its 63-72pts of dead Orkz