Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Albertorius wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
As for those Deathtroopers, its pretty easy to tell they are 3d prints - they look nothing like the actual deathtrooper sculpts made by FFG. Since nobody else is allowed to produce them as FFG has an exclusive license, theres really only one source for them.

I... that's not the point. I like them because they look nothing like the ones from FFG. They're alternate sculpts. The fact that you can tell they're not the official ones don't mean they're bad, or even that they're prints, they could exactly as well be cast.

If your comments above that you could tell them apart from across the board is because they're different... I don't believe they have merit, TBH.

The discussion is about whether or not the print would be indistinguishable from GWs own minis (or in this case FFGs). For that to be the case requires the mini to be identically sculpted and identically posed, etc. otherwise being able to disguise the prints becomes irrelvant. Knowing what the official minis are supposed to look like is basically key to that process.In this case, its actually the high quality of the prints that give it away. The official death trooper minis are that soft plastic pvc restic type material - the edges are soft and the details aren't as well defined or crisp. On these the edges are sharper/crisper and the details are better defined than on FFGs own minis. Its hard to judge this relative to a plastic injection mini, as there isn't a plastic injection deathtrooper to compare it to, but I would say that there is an apparent surface roughness on areas of these minis which would not be found in plastic injection minis (particularly on "foreheads" and the topsides and business ends of the gun barrels, as well as on the big pauldrons), a few spots where the geometry wouldn't be reproduceable in plastic in a single piece, the puches on the shoulder of the mini on the left look a bit wonky (hard to tell if its a sculpt issue or a print issue though), what looks to be layer lines on the flap of the pouch in the crotch region of the mini with the visor as well as on the fingers hes holding to his head, the inside corner edge of his left gauntlet is also soft, especially towards the bottom you can kind of see what looks to be a slight deformation in the geometry. There also appears to be some geometry issues on the model to the left of that guy, on the strap/armor reinforcement strip or whatever it is on its thigh (it looks kind of like it didn't print round but instead as a polygon, this might be a sculpt issue). Admittedly on this one I probably wouldn't be able to tell from across the table if they were sculpted to match FFG, etc. but if FFGs were HIPS instead, I'd guess it would be a bit more obvious, just based on the softness of some of the details and areas of rough surface texture.

I do have to say I like the left thigh of the mini on the left - weird thing to say, but the combination of the texture and the way its painted looks almost lifelike.

(this was in reference to the original phot of the painted guys, I'll review the new photos shortly)

We have a whole sub forum for discussing 3d printing, this thread is not the place.

a_typical_hero wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
So, they KNOW about Scalper bots, but don't implement anything to prevent them?

Something like, uh... eliminating the reason to scalp stuff in the first place? Yeah, shame they don't do something like produce a copy for each order instead of limiting the orders... oh wait.

Seriously, can't you pester any other forum? We get it you hate the company. Nobody cares.

You care enough yo nake this comment. Tbh, the scalping of this kind of things would be more easily solved by not making them limited deals, tbh.

GW needs to back away from their self imposed time line on how long an edition should last. If a rule book is good leave it alone. They are trying so hard to pump stuff out that they are weakening their products. I know it's about profits but they will just drive people away. I saw a video yesterday where one of the new Killteam books might as well of had a whole section of blank pages in it for the lack of information about model entries. You spend 200 dollars US and the first thing you will have to buy is a new book in six months. A game should come with everything it needs to play the game.

I know it's about profits but they will just drive people away

Hasn't happened yet. GW got lot smarter about using addictive tactics straight out of video game industry to keep people invested since the days of Kirby's Endless Price Rise.

It does hit them in another way--they are out of stock of a broad swathe of product people want to buy. My flgs cannot get the full-priced unit boxes it's ordering because GW is so busy producing limited discount boxes.

I was told yesterday that the MTO only extends through today, so if you're sitting on the fence and it's sold out for the "release wave"?

You have until the end of today in your timezone.

Cronch wrote:

I know it's about profits but they will just drive people away

Hasn't happened yet. GW got lot smarter about using addictive tactics straight out of video game industry to keep people invested since the days of Kirby's Endless Price Rise.

It isn't like a single release hits and the customer hive mind decides that is too much. A few individuals may drop off, mainly negative sentiment builds and people start pushing off purchases or just downloading rules in lieu of buying them, third party counts-as miniatures increase in popularity over actual GW models. When things get to the point of large numbers of people outright leaving a game they have invested hundreds of hours and currency in, that is when things have gone from bad to critical.

Cronch wrote:

I know it's about profits but they will just drive people away

Hasn't happened yet. GW got lot smarter about using addictive tactics straight out of video game industry to keep people invested since the days of Kirby's Endless Price Rise.

Have their volume of sales increased over the last few years?

I thought their approach to the business was increasingly as a luxury product, where they sold at higher prices to less people and their margins were higher per unit sold.

If that is the case, it would make sense as to why they're going to with this FOMO-driven model of product release.

Mate. Just go and look at their financials.

Those results aren’t from selling to fewer for higher margins.

GW's fewer customers paying more for less, and also order from us directly because we want 100% of the sale not 50% or otherwise our stock may collapse, feels like the sort of thing that depends on never sailing into troubled waters to work.

I have no doubt these limited release big boxes bring them in tremendous amounts of money, which is why they're switching to doing them every time they have a new product. But while the crowd of consumers they're selling these to are essentially immune to concerns of price and value, there remains the risk that something else will turn them off (like a shiny object in their field of vision).

 frankelee wrote:
GW's fewer customers paying more for less, and also order from us directly because we want 100% of the sale not 50% or otherwise our stock may collapse, feels like the sort of thing that depends on never sailing into troubled waters to work.

I have no doubt these limited release big boxes bring them in tremendous amounts of money, which is why they're switching to doing them every time they have a new product. But while the crowd of consumers they're selling these to are essentially immune to concerns of price and value, there remains the risk that something else will turn them off (like a shiny object in their field of vision).

I think GW's customer base is pretty much physically incapable of buying anything that GW doesn't make at large. Given how everything they make keeps selling out, even with everything that recently happened, i think GW's customers will stay with them forever.

I think you are incapable of understanding that a lot of people genuinely enjoy GWs products and find them to be worth the price.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think you are incapable of understanding that a lot of people genuinely enjoy GWs products and find them to be worth the price.

Yes, because it sounds extremly unreasonable to me.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think you are incapable of understanding that a lot of people genuinely enjoy GWs products and find them to be worth the price.

Yes, because it sounds extremly unreasonable to me.

Then why are you in GW threads on a mostly GW site?
I mean if you really dislike them not just as a business but in terms of product value for money then why torment yourself and others?


I don't like some of the designs of Kingdom Death models but I don't run around finding every KDM thread and complaining about them or saying they aren't worth it all the time. Same I'm not a fan of Kings of War designs, but I don't rush around in their threads complaining about it. I just let those who do like those designs like them and enjoy them and enjoy talking about them etc....

You seem to spend ages just complaining and griping and whining about GW

 Overread wrote:

I don't like some of the designs of Kingdom Death models but I don't run around finding every KDM thread and complaining about them or saying they aren't worth it all the time. Same I'm not a fan of Kings of War designs, but I don't rush around in their threads complaining about it.

you may not do it, but others are

if you are in a more generic forum, this happens often
I have enough people in another forum who always complain about the bad models for Kings of War because those people are there for different reasons, happen to come across the discussion because of the it was under "recent topics" and it happen

but this is also the big difference of forum to other social medias like Facebook or Reddit, it happens that people who are not inside the specific bubble are joining the discussion
and this is a good thing

It's not a good thing when, by his own admission, he cannot distinguish the difference between subjective and objective. Then it's just gakposting.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It's not a good thing when, by his own admission, he cannot distinguish the difference between subjective and objective. Then it's just gakposting.

So do as I did and put the little troll on ignore.

It never ceases to amuse me that people are so deluded they simply cannot fathom the possibility of me actually holding these beliefs and choose to, again and again, dismiss me as a troll.

Or maybe people think you should just stop hateposting about GW stuff in GW threads and find something you like to talk about instead?

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think you are incapable of understanding that a lot of people genuinely enjoy GWs products and find them to be worth the price.

Yes, because it sounds extremly unreasonable to me.

GW does a lot of things right. And as regards price for a bit of plastic which keeps me entertained, to me right now it‘s less relevant than the time I have invest building and painting.

I‘ll wait and see with the new Kill Team for now. It has potential, but the lack of list building and mixing of units turns me off atm. Though Tyranids and regular Guard do not look too bad. Maybe pick it up for the books & terrain if I see it somewhere cheap (GW cheap, that is).

But Wha-Mu, I don’t get why you invest so much time & energy attacking a toy company and its customers. It looks slightly obsessive, and with the Cursed City saga was a bit silly. I‘d be interested to know the reason, if you would share that. Did they step on your toe at some point?

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
It never ceases to amuse me that people are so deluded they simply cannot fathom the possibility of me actually holding these beliefs and choose to, again and again, dismiss me as a troll.

Maybe consider an alternate definition of troll, where it's not about you lying about your beliefs, but that you are seen as just trying to stir up controversy and reactions rather than contribute to a discussion.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Or maybe people think you should just stop hateposting about GW stuff in GW threads and find something you like to talk about instead?

Is it possible to love the game/world and hate how GW operates?

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Or maybe people think you should just stop hateposting about GW stuff in GW threads and find something you like to talk about instead?

Is it possible to love the game/world and hate how GW operates?

Yes, but sometimes you have to realise that complaining about it in a forum won't change the company. So you either have to live with your demons or move onto companies, lores and games that you do love. Or at least not hate.


Personally I don't mind what anyone loves or hates, but I do feel bad about those people who come to a community (online, or in person) who can only (or mostly) only find a way to connect by complaining/hating. I also think that within Warhammer we, as a community, have developed an attitude of "hating GW" as being part of the hobby in a social/community sense. It's so casually thrown around that its accepted and that doesn't just influence ourselves but new generations coming in. By all means be critical, but the blind GW "hate" has grown into its own, scary thing.

It saps a persons enjoyment of what they do love because they continually read and repeat the hate/dislike around about the company. It derails threads, it dominates discussions, it gets in the way of enjoyment.


I like a nice rant or a complaint or debate; but at the same time I feel like we've built ourselves this tower of hate/dislike so high that its all some can see. I'd rather see people at least start threads on the lore they love to talk about it. To talk about the latest book they read or the bit of lore they love or the bit they'd love to see developed or their own fanfiction. I'd love them to post their latest posted model; their latest conversion; photos of their last game etc... That, I feel, is far better and healthier to engage with on a regular basis.


In the end I try to say what I say to make the people who are hating perhaps pause and question why they are saying what they say where they say it. Hating on GW (or anything) on a forum won't change the thing they hate; complaining that GW charges too much on Dakka won't make GW charge less or change. It can vent some frustration, but only when its done in healthy moderation.


Hobbies are something we choose to do. We make that choice to involve them within our lives totally freely. It's our time, our hobby and I just feel some are missing out on so much real enjoyment by hyper-focusing on the negative and bringing it into social groups which then dominates discussions.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I think you are incapable of understanding that a lot of people genuinely enjoy GWs products and find them to be worth the price.

And it's also possible to believe the former without believing the latter.

 ph34r wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
It never ceases to amuse me that people are so deluded they simply cannot fathom the possibility of me actually holding these beliefs and choose to, again and again, dismiss me as a troll.

Maybe consider an alternate definition of troll, where it's not about you lying about your beliefs, but that you are seen as just trying to stir up controversy and reactions rather than contribute to a discussion.

Wha-Mu, delusion has nothing to do with it. I can quite easily accept that you genuinely hold these beliefs. Frankly, I'm convinced of it.

I dismiss you as a troll because vomiting forth all that loathing and hate is all you do. What I can't imagine is hating something so much that you're willing to pour this much energy into pissing into the wind. The level of vitriol you put forth isn't likely to win you many converts, so it just comes off as hate for hate's sake.

You need a hobby, pal, because this one ain't working out for you.

 Overread wrote:

Personally I don't mind what anyone loves or hates, but I do feel bad about those people who come to a community (online, or in person) who can only (or mostly) only find a way to connect by complaining/hating. I also think that within Warhammer we, as a community, have developed an attitude of "hating GW" as being part of the hobby in a social/community sense. It's so casually thrown around that its accepted and that doesn't just influence ourselves but new generations coming in. By all means be critical, but the blind GW "hate" has grown into its own, scary thing.

On the one hand, I can empathize with where I believe this is coming from. I can understand wanting to go online and have a safe space to be surrounded only by agreeing voices. It would be much easier and I feel it would probably contribute more to one's own excitement.

On the other hand, I don't think you're being reasonable in your framing of people who are critical of GW as a company. You call it blind hate, but that's a unfair way to frame it. There is a lot to be critical about in the way GW does its business these days.

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:

 Overread wrote:

Personally I don't mind what anyone loves or hates, but I do feel bad about those people who come to a community (online, or in person) who can only (or mostly) only find a way to connect by complaining/hating. I also think that within Warhammer we, as a community, have developed an attitude of "hating GW" as being part of the hobby in a social/community sense. It's so casually thrown around that its accepted and that doesn't just influence ourselves but new generations coming in. By all means be critical, but the blind GW "hate" has grown into its own, scary thing.

On the one hand, I can empathize with where I believe this is coming from. I can understand wanting to go online and have a safe space to be surrounded only by agreeing voices. It would be much easier and I feel it would probably contribute more to one's own excitement.

On the other hand, I don't think you're being reasonable in your framing of people who are critical of GW as a company. You call it blind hate, but that's a unfair way to frame it. There is a lot to be critical about in the way GW does its business these days.

I don't think anyone is saying you can't criticize what GW does. Personally, I've even hated a number of things they did - WHFB 8th edition drew a lot of ire from me.

But be honest: some people take their hate to whole different level, and it isn't healthy for anybody.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
It does hit them in another way--they are out of stock of a broad swathe of product people want to buy. My flgs cannot get the full-priced unit boxes it's ordering because GW is so busy producing limited discount boxes.

With the exception perhaps of combat patrols, the only unit box GW has put out in recent memory that would have impacted individual kits is Hexfire - and in the case of GK and TS its more likely they are out of stock for reboxings than because they dumped all their sprues into a discount box. All the other discount boxes released for the last several months have otherwise been sprues unique to that box (similar to Indomitus) or not otherwise released. So, that being the case... #doubt.

 frankelee wrote:
GW's fewer customers paying more for less, and also order from us directly because we want 100% of the sale not 50% or otherwise our stock may collapse, feels like the sort of thing that depends on never sailing into troubled waters to work.

GWs revenue growth has outpaced the growth in its prices for the last 3-4 years, so it isn't possible that they are making more money from fewer customers paying more for less - mathematically its simply not possible for that to be true relative to GWs pricing.

I have no doubt these limited release big boxes bring them in tremendous amounts of money, which is why they're switching to doing them every time they have a new product. But while the crowd of consumers they're selling these to are essentially immune to concerns of price and value, there remains the risk that something else will turn them off (like a shiny object in their field of vision).

As someone who buys multiples of these things every time they release, the rate of release on them has actually slowed down relative to pre-covid era, i.e. they are releasing fewer of these big boxes rather than more.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
It never ceases to amuse me that people are so deluded they simply cannot fathom the possibility of me actually holding these beliefs and choose to, again and again, dismiss me as a troll.

Emotionally healthy and mentally stable people don't generally spend as much time and energy as you do shitposting about something that makes them as miserable as 40k/GW seems to make you. So either you're a troll, or you should consider seeing a mental health professional and see if they can help you work out whats making you so unhappy.

 Overread wrote:



Personally I don't mind what anyone loves or hates, but I do feel bad about those people who come to a community (online, or in person) who can only (or mostly) only find a way to connect by complaining/hating. I also think that within Warhammer we, as a community, have developed an attitude of "hating GW" as being part of the hobby in a social/community sense. It's so casually thrown around that its accepted and that doesn't just influence ourselves but new generations coming in. By all means be critical, but the blind GW "hate" has grown into its own, scary thing.

Spot on. I posted something similar in another thread, but basically its become cool and trendy to hate on GW. The majority of the people doing it are active GW customers, often running out to buy the very thing that they are bitching and complaining about online. Logically speaking, if they actually disliked the game/minis/rules/business/community, etc. as much as they pretend to, then they wouldn't be shoveling pocketfulls of cash across it on a regular basis. So either they are shitposting for the sake of shitposting because its become the prevailing attitude within the community (and indeed this is what I experienced with WHFB before the community turned fully toxic and began to intentionally drive new players away by telling anyone who expressed any amount of interest how awful the game was) or we just have a lot of miserable addicts in the community that have the same relationship with GWs plastic as alcoholics due with liquor and drug addicts do with coke/meth/heroine, etc.

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:


On the other hand, I don't think you're being reasonable in your framing of people who are critical of GW as a company. You call it blind hate, but that's a unfair way to frame it. There is a lot to be critical about in the way GW does its business these days.

Sure, but theres a difference between being critical and being a hater. Theres quite a few members of this section of the online community (referring to dakka) who have what seems to be a healthy relationship with GW - i.e. they are here because they enjoy the game/lore/minis or whatever but recognize that GW is a flawed business and levy valid criticisms at GW or its products, etc. when its relevant and/or necessary to do so. Then there are quite a few people who seem to exist only to hate on it all, stir the pot regularly, and get giddy with excitement and glee as they jump from one controversy or scandal to another, and spend the majority of their time in discussion threads specifically revolving around those scandals/controversies, or trying to drag scandal/controversy into other discussion even when there is no reason to do so.

Take this very thread for example. Whats it about? GW committing to make sure everyone who wants a copy of Kill Team will be able to get one. Thats a good thing, right? But what have the last few pages of discussion really been about?

-3D printing putting GW out of business (some people seem to really actually *want* this to happen)
-GW doing FOMO stuff (even though the made to order commitment would be the opposite of FOMO)
-GW intentionally limiting the preview/preorder/release window for products in some sort of bizarre conspiracy to frontload all of its sales and/or screw over its customers
-GW encouraging scalping (even though they've instituted various electronic measures and policies which would seem to be squarely pointed at combating scalping activities)
-a conspiracy about how GW is making more money by selling fewer products to fewer customers at a higher price (flies squarely in the face of known reality that indicates that GWs customer base actually grew and more people were buying more products)

the last one in particular - i am constantly surprised and dismayed by the degree of mental gymnastics that some of the more conspiracy-minded haters on this board jump through in order to justify their hatred of the company by concocting scenarios in which GW is a malfeasant moustache-twirling villain very intentionally engaging in nefarious wrongdoing in the pursuit of profit at the expense of its fans and customers. The thread about SODAZ and GW animators is a good one, where a few dakkites insisted that GW offering animators job opportunity was a bad thing and that in reality GW was holding a metaphorical gun to these animators heads and blackmailing them to produce content under threat of legal action, even though the various animators own statements indicated that GW was actually being rather lovely about the whole thing and giving them an incredible opportunity that they would be crazy not to take advantage of (and in one case, an animator actually politely declined GWs advances and was allowed to leave their content online without issue). And thats just the tip of the iceberg as to how crazy some of these conspiracy theories get.

 jojo_monkey_boy wrote:

 Overread wrote:

Personally I don't mind what anyone loves or hates, but I do feel bad about those people who come to a community (online, or in person) who can only (or mostly) only find a way to connect by complaining/hating. I also think that within Warhammer we, as a community, have developed an attitude of "hating GW" as being part of the hobby in a social/community sense. It's so casually thrown around that its accepted and that doesn't just influence ourselves but new generations coming in. By all means be critical, but the blind GW "hate" has grown into its own, scary thing.

On the one hand, I can empathize with where I believe this is coming from. I can understand wanting to go online and have a safe space to be surrounded only by agreeing voices. It would be much easier and I feel it would probably contribute more to one's own excitement.

On the other hand, I don't think you're being reasonable in your framing of people who are critical of GW as a company. You call it blind hate, but that's a unfair way to frame it. There is a lot to be critical about in the way GW does its business these days.

As the other said, my point isn't that we need to shut down any criticism of GW's activities, just that the community, esp the online one, has a very unhealthy negative lean at present and the community needs to really address it and balance it out. As noted right now there are hot-button topics that can fast derail any thread, even a very positive one into a long negative debate. These repeat over and over (eg balance has been going for 30 years!) and they don't actually generate any net gain at the end of them.
As noted above there can be an easy tipping point where new people get turned away because of the negativity. When you join a community of hobby fans on a forum or group for that hobby you expect that most will enjoy the hobby. That they'll be positive, engaging, supportive, motivating and in general the majority of content will be upbeat. If you instead find lots of lingering arguments, fights, complaints etc... slipping in all over the place that makes you wonder if its really any good.

It's not about shutting down critical thoughts, its about taming them and balancing them out. Heck perhaps its also about finding ways to pool certain critical viewpoints and present them in ways that GW might be receptive to hearing so that we might actually promote change. Rather than just whining on forums that generates zero feedback and zero positive end result.