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@ Skitarii: in that case I concede my point. I didn't know enough about Admech to be aware of this diversity.

@ Gert: I don't know... I personally think Guard and Orks do homebrew at least as good if not better than Marines. The official Regiments alone are visualy (at least in my opinion) significantly more diverse than what I saw so far of different Marine Chapters. And the background of Guard regiments ranging from Penal Legionairs over conscripted hive gangers, tribal warriors, professional soldiery, highborn aristocrats playing war etc. to me also gives a lot more variance than SM who by definition are an indoctrinated elite force.

But than again: I haven't read that much literature and nothing really focussing on Marines, so my opinion might be very biased

When it comes to practices and "culture," there's definitely some room for variation. If some minor order says different prayers, has unique customs or "weird" relics, it's fine as long as it's not outright heretical.
For the aesthetic part, the problem is that the sisters don't make any of their equipment. They don't have tech-sisters available to build or customize anything, so every weapon and armor is made following sacred templates. A paint-job and some decorations is probably as far as they can go, otherwise a forge world would have to make stuff according to their specifications.

That's for the in-universe version, anyway. The real-world version is: GW makes everything look like its line of models for marketing purposes. For example, tyranids are supposed to change their organisms all the time, adapting to the conditions they're currently in. In official depictions and models, a gaunt is a gaunt is a gaunt.

 Tiennos wrote:
When it comes to practices and "culture," there's definitely some room for variation. If some minor order says different prayers, has unique customs or "weird" relics, it's fine as long as it's not outright heretical.
For the aesthetic part, the problem is that the sisters don't make any of their equipment. They don't have tech-sisters available to build or customize anything, so every weapon and armor is made following sacred templates. A paint-job and some decorations is probably as far as they can go, otherwise a forge world would have to make stuff according to their specifications.

That's for the in-universe version, anyway. The real-world version is: GW makes everything look like its line of models for marketing purposes. For example, tyranids are supposed to change their organisms all the time, adapting to the conditions they're currently in. In official depictions and models, a gaunt is a gaunt is a gaunt.

That's a very easy objection to overcome. The sisters belong to possibly the wealthiest organization in the entire imperium. How to you think the inquisition is so well funded? It would not be hard for a minor church wing to splinter off and take a planet's worth of money and resources, and begin manufacturing their own weapons and armor. It's happened before.

 Pyroalchi wrote:
@ Gert: I don't know... I personally think Guard and Orks do homebrew at least as good if not better than Marines. The official Regiments alone are visualy (at least in my opinion) significantly more diverse than what I saw so far of different Marine Chapters. And the background of Guard regiments ranging from Penal Legionairs over conscripted hive gangers, tribal warriors, professional soldiery, highborn aristocrats playing war etc. to me also gives a lot more variance than SM who by definition are an indoctrinated elite force.

But than again: I haven't read that much literature and nothing really focussing on Marines, so my opinion might be very biased

It's a difficult one because scale-wise there are more Guard Regiments than Marine Chapters so from that perspective, there should be greater options for converting and diversity. However, Guard are limited in a couple of ways.
Astartes fit the jack-of-all-trades field whereas Guard are very much trapped in the realm of overwhelming firepower.
An Astartes Chapter that favours CQC and makes sparse use of Tactical or Devastator Squads is easily done but you can't really do a CQC Guard army in the same way.
Astartes also have the benefit of not being mortal, so homebrew characters can have a story built around them easier than a Guard character. Sergeant Tarvin of the Golden Blades could survive numerous battles and eventually become a Captain, but Sergeant Craig of the Hoskan 112th can barely survive a Lasgun bolt let alone some of the things an Astartes could survive. Its harder to forge a story that is good and believable when the characters you're writing about tend to go *squish*.
A similar concept applies to Relic stories. Chapter Master Ordus of the Golden Blades might wield the ancient Paragon Blade Shadowfang, carried by the Chapters founder during the War of the Beast. Colonel Greg of the Hoskan 112th is unlikely to get his hands on anything above standard-issue, after all, he's only mortal and generally expendable. There'll be 20 new Hoskan Regiments by next week all with a Colonel of their own.
For me, Guard works best as the generalised mass, which works fine but is much harder to craft a narrative for. The Regiment as a whole can tell a story but individuals are much more difficult, something Marines don't really suffer from.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Tiennos wrote:
When it comes to practices and "culture," there's definitely some room for variation. If some minor order says different prayers, has unique customs or "weird" relics, it's fine as long as it's not outright heretical.
For the aesthetic part, the problem is that the sisters don't make any of their equipment. They don't have tech-sisters available to build or customize anything, so every weapon and armor is made following sacred templates. A paint-job and some decorations is probably as far as they can go, otherwise a forge world would have to make stuff according to their specifications.

That's for the in-universe version, anyway. The real-world version is: GW makes everything look like its line of models for marketing purposes. For example, tyranids are supposed to change their organisms all the time, adapting to the conditions they're currently in. In official depictions and models, a gaunt is a gaunt is a gaunt.

That's a very easy objection to overcome. The sisters belong to possibly the wealthiest organization in the entire imperium. How to you think the inquisition is so well funded? It would not be hard for a minor church wing to splinter off and take a planet's worth of money and resources, and begin manufacturing their own weapons and armor. It's happened before.

That, sir, is Hersey and Treason of the highest order!

And as others have said, feel free to make your models and your army your own. That is the beauty of galaxy spanning war in the 41st Millennium. Still, going by the background as presented, the Adepta Sororitas are all selected from the Schola Progenium and armed with weapons and armor crafted by the Tech-Priest of Mars under the terms of the Writ Illuminat, a contract dating back to the days of High Lord Vandire and the founding of the Sister of Battle.

A quick note regarding cultural diversity within the sororitas: it exists. Those differences are most obviously seen in the symbolism behind the colors and decorations of different orders' armor, but you can also see it in how the Argent Shroud's funeral rites vary from others or in how the Bloody Rose attaches more religious significance to melee. I think it's fair to assume that that last point (along with other fluff about the Bloody Rose) implies that they probably practice slightly different forms of melee combat than other orders.

Basically, certain forms of deviation from the "norm" seem to be tolerated or even encouraged. It's just that there are some very judgemental eyes keeping track of your orders deviations. So if your order decides to encourage shaving your head and ritually scarring holy images into your scalp, that might be seen as a quirky-but-admirable display of faith. If your order starts featuring a bunch of Escher-esque punk rock hair colors/styles, that might be viewed by your superiors as a dangerously individualistic form of self-expression that could lead to other selfish acts in the future. Unless your boss does a good job of convincing their boss to greenlight your green hair.

So if you want to put bear pelts and viking braids on your sisters, just ask yourself how they'll explain it to their superiors. If they've been deployed to a cold, icy planet for the last decade and the pelts are just a practical piece of gear they obtained from the locals, that's probably fine. If they refuse to give up their bear pelts because personally killing the biggest beast they could find was a "matter of honor" and "part of their saga," that's maybe going to attract some harsh scrutiny.

 alextroy wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:

 Tiennos wrote:
When it comes to practices and "culture," there's definitely some room for variation. If some minor order says different prayers, has unique customs or "weird" relics, it's fine as long as it's not outright heretical.
For the aesthetic part, the problem is that the sisters don't make any of their equipment. They don't have tech-sisters available to build or customize anything, so every weapon and armor is made following sacred templates. A paint-job and some decorations is probably as far as they can go, otherwise a forge world would have to make stuff according to their specifications.

That's for the in-universe version, anyway. The real-world version is: GW makes everything look like its line of models for marketing purposes. For example, tyranids are supposed to change their organisms all the time, adapting to the conditions they're currently in. In official depictions and models, a gaunt is a gaunt is a gaunt.

That's a very easy objection to overcome. The sisters belong to possibly the wealthiest organization in the entire imperium. How to you think the inquisition is so well funded? It would not be hard for a minor church wing to splinter off and take a planet's worth of money and resources, and begin manufacturing their own weapons and armor. It's happened before.

That, sir, is Hersey and Treason of the highest order!

And as others have said, feel free to make your models and your army your own. That is the beauty of galaxy spanning war in the 41st Millennium. Still, going by the background as presented, the Adepta Sororitas are all selected from the Schola Progenium and armed with weapons and armor crafted by the Tech-Priest of Mars under the terms of the Writ Illuminat, a contract dating back to the days of High Lord Vandire and the founding of the Sister of Battle.

Then where do the Sisters on the other side of the Great rift get their weapons and armor? Just to name a few planets that have Sisters but no access to Mars currently: Valhalla, Vigilus, Mordian, Baal. Honestly not trying to be snarky here, but where do you get arms and armor on the other side of the rift?

You have it before the Rift began and keep stuff in stockpile. Literally no Imperial force works on last minute supply for its arms and equipment. Or you get it from another Forge World that isn't Mars itself.

Vatsetis wrote:Why do all the post have to be "astartes centric"??

I know they are the marketing hook of the setting, but perhaps not everything has to revolce arround the "WASP"s of the 41st Millenium.

Because understanding why Sisters and Astartes are not the same thing, and how their design philosophies differ is useful in understanding WHY Sisters are the way they are - you'll notice as well that I've done the same with Guardsmen and Necrons, outlining why customisation comes easier to one than the other.

Also, for what it's worth, in the OP itself, you compared them to Space Marines. If you're complaining about Space Marines being brought up, I should remind you that you mentioned them first.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
But, as always you are free to create your own Sisterhood if you so wish to - however, as you asked, this is not an aspect of their design that GW readily facilitates for.

Do you understand that? Or will you misrepresent that again?

I understand that you dont understand whats my point...

You asked why Sisters aren't as diverse as Space Marines and Guardsmen. People outlined that, aesthetically, this is not as supported by GW's own design of the faction, but that you could absolutely customise them yourself, if you wanted to. That is the answer to your question.

If you are trying to ask a different question, perhaps just asking that question plainly would yield better answers.

CthuluIsSpy wrote:What's odd though about the Ad Mech is that the priests themselves aren't actually uniform; tech-priests had all sorts of different enhancements and cybernetic components.

I don't think even the skitarii were that uniform, that's a by-product of being turned into a model line and GW's insistence on making the art look exactly like the models.

This is very true - Skitarii are meant to be much more diverse than what GW's models present them as, and there's plenty of literature to back that up.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

Wyldhunt wrote:
A quick note regarding cultural diversity within the sororitas: it exists. Those differences are most obviously seen in the symbolism behind the colors and decorations of different orders' armor, but you can also see it in how the Argent Shroud's funeral rites vary from others or in how the Bloody Rose attaches more religious significance to melee. I think it's fair to assume that that last point (along with other fluff about the Bloody Rose) implies that they probably practice slightly different forms of melee combat than other orders.

Also absolutely true - there *is* diversity within the Sororitas, but it rarely manifests on an aesthetic level beyond colour and the occasional symbol - most differences seem to be in doctrine. But yes, Sisters *do* have a variety of customs and subcultures even within the main culture itself.

 Gert wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
There's no real reason for that to be the case from a background perspective and is just a function of Marines being popular. It's easy to imagine the same amount of "cultural" variance among Orks, Eldar, IG, Chaos etc. Marines themselves just get so much attention that any differences wind up being highly publicized, codified and scrutinized.

I disagree with this quite a bit.
From a miniature design perspective, Marines are blank slates with lots of flat open panels and easily interchangeable parts. Even if you aren't using larger parts like shoulder pads or helmets, smaller parts like pelts or pendants fit better on the larger canvas Marine models offer.
You could argue that Marines are popular so they get more kits which means they have more presence which means they're more popular, which to a degree I agree with. But then how would you explain the Marines being consistently popular from 1st all the way through to 9th? Yes, there would have come a point of no return regarding releases but I don't think that would have occurred until at least 5th Ed.

I wasn't speaking about miniature design, but if you want to go there we can. Imperial Guard have had a greater variety of regimental sculpts than Marines have had for their chapters.

 Gert wrote:

From a background perspective, most Imperial organisations are heavily centralised or are too small to effectively convey mass customisation.
Marines fill the gap by being beholden to no particular group, free from outside interference, there are quite a lot of them, and ultimately able to pursue whatever culture they want. A Chapter descended from the Ultramarines could be as compliant and similar to their parent Chapter, like the Aurora Chapter or Sons of Guilliman, or they could be more deviant, like the Emperor's Spears or Angels of Fire. There are no holy texts or sacred rules that Chapters must follow, even the Codex Astartes is a controversial document that is often followed by many Chapters as guidelines rather than hard and fast rules. They don't need to be presented as male or need to be cyborgs/half-machines.

From a background perspective, there's a hefty numbers game that doesn't go in the Mariens favor. There are only 1000 chapters, while there are a million worlds in the Imperium, each of which is required to have a local PDF and raise IG regiments. So right there you have 1000 times more potential cultures to draw upon.

The Codex Astartes, which all chapters are still compliant towards in some way or another, serves the same function as any holy scripture. The occasional 'loose' degree of adherence to the Codex isn't necessarily something that sets Marines apart. There's little reason for Guard Regiments or Sisterhood sub-Orders to behave differently in regards to their own doctrinal adherence. And remember that, in truth, the vast majority of SM Chapters are in fact quite Codex compliant, following company structures and squad organization very closely.

Here's a look at Space Marine "Variety":


Vs Imperial Guard (actual) variety:


Heh. Note that the IG regiments don't require color images to be notably distinct from one another.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Argive wrote:surely they could just change the bit of lore to get some diversity in SOB...

Totally! As I've said, if the lore is being used to *prevent* player creativity, then that lore should be amended. In this situation, I'd like to see more emphasis on alternative forms of Sisters of Battle, because as they are presented by GW, they are not as diverse as they could be (and by diversity, I do not refer to ethnicity, as this *is* actually addressed).

What do you refer to if not that ??

Argive wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Argive wrote:surely they could just change the bit of lore to get some diversity in SOB...

Totally! As I've said, if the lore is being used to *prevent* player creativity, then that lore should be amended. In this situation, I'd like to see more emphasis on alternative forms of Sisters of Battle, because as they are presented by GW, they are not as diverse as they could be (and by diversity, I do not refer to ethnicity, as this *is* actually addressed).

What do you refer to if not that ??

The elements of the lore which don't prohibit player creativity, of course? Not all aspects of the lore exist solely to prevent certain things, or are absolutely statements.

For example, the Codex Astartes - a fun piece of lore, but not every Chapter follows it. It provides a framework to build off of, but doesn't prohibit player freedoms or choices. That's what the lore for 40k should be - an inspiration and framework, but not a cage or prison for that creativity.

The framework for Sisters should be "the Adepta Sororitas engage in multiple different forms of worship of the Emperor, ranging from different methods of waging war, private rituals and ceremonies, or other more esoteric means of showing their devotion" - right there, you have a framework for what they might do, without constraining and saying "no, they definitely don't do this".

yeah except that to make your guard differant you need to have entirely differant mini's to represent that differance. meanwhile the large surfaces for space marines allows for you to easily use it as a wide canvas, to paint things and drape stuff off, which was the point gert was getting at. Marines are easily customized to represent differnt things, whereas guard, sisters etc aren't. sure I'm sure people can green stuff up furs and scales etc for cadians, but iMarines make it a lot easier to do, thanks to the broad surfaces etc. likewise, due to the shoulderpads etc being things it's easy to hammer out bits to customize Marines.

You can't produce shoudler pads for guard, sisters etc

But as the IG Codex shows you can build a ridiculous amount of custom regiments by combining legs, body, arms and heads of:
Cadians troopers (with Flak armor)
Cadian officers (without armor)
Catachans
Scions
Genestealer Neophytes
Skitarii (especially the heads and weapons)
baseline humans from the AoS range, especially empire

The are some examples like
indigan prefects: Neophyte legs, Scion Torso, Neophyte(?) arms, Skitarii Vanguard heads, Scion Backpacks
Or Miasman Redcoats: officer (longcoat) legs, Cadian armored torso, and arms, either AoS elfen ranger heads with Cadian Command squad respirators or Skitarii Ranger heads...
Or Savlar Chem dogs who combine Cadian legs with Neophyte bodies and heads etc.

Other than Marines (who might possibly interchange a bit with Stormcast, I'm not sure), IG can heavily be customized with GW parts. And often enough quite efficiently if you buy a box of Cadians, Scions, Neophytes each and build 2-3 different custom regiments out of all the bits/swap with other hobbyists doing the same.

BrianDavion wrote:

. . .
yeah except that to make your guard differant you need to have entirely differant mini's to represent that differance.

A: Requiring a different model makes my point about variety.

B: Paint and a head swap will do if you're feeling low effort.

Both sides to this are true.

Guardsmen, like Space Marines, lend well to customisation and conversion, albeit in different ways.

The core Space Marine design of flat panels, broad empty spaces, and the encouragement of aping off of different cultures lends strongly to this player freedom. Similarly, the range of compatible human/humanoid kits for Guardsmen and the examples GW provides also gives Guardsmen a nice niche as an army of player freedom and creativity.

This is because both factions have been designed and encouraged to be treated in such a manner, whereas Sisters are not.

Just to make a point about the whole "Look at all the Regiments shown in the Guard Codex" thing, we've seen them broken down into their constituent parts but there's no cost analysis behind that. So for the converted Regiments from the 8th Edition Astra Militarum Codex we have:


The point I'm trying to make here is that making a custom Regiment may be easy in the sense that there are many human-scaled kits to convert with but when it comes to cost, at least 50% it's just not worth it compared to buying one box of Space Wolves and having enough bitz to last your lifetime.

Space Marines are still more bound to the forms of their armor, whereas canonically (and even rules-wise) Guardsmen have varied far more even on that dimension. At the height of their customization Guardsmen (even just the basic infantry) could be wearing armor ranging from 4+ to 6+.


Arguably Sisters suffer in the variation department only because they've been such an overlooked faction for so long. Ease of modeling aside, there's little in-universe reason for them not to be just as varied as Space Marines.

Apart from the whole organisation being under the thumb of generally conservative religious nuts that don't like different things and the legal requirement for them to be overtly female you mean?

 Gert wrote:
Just to make a point about the whole "Look at all the Regiments shown in the Guard Codex" thing, we've seen them broken down into their constituent parts but there's no cost analysis behind that. So for the converted Regiments from the 8th Edition Astra Militarum Codex we have:

Spoiler:

Mordian Veteran - Cadian Command Squad (legs, torso, head) the torso and head are 1 each per box. Tank Crewman (arms) you might have some spare but nowhere near enough to make a Regiment of plastic Mordians and none are holding Lasguns in a firing position. Heavy Weapon Team (weapon) comes with loads of spare Lasguns. For this specific conversion (I say "specific" because any deviation would make this much harder) we're looking at around £70-ish if we cheat and get the Start Collecting Box. There is no cost-effective way of replicating this miniature en-masse without lots of sculpting.
Tanith Guardsman - Cadian Command Squad (legs, cape, head) the cape is 1 per box. Catachan Heavy Weapon Team (body, arms, weapon) lots of all of these parts. Tanith are easily one of the simplest Regiments to convert mostly down to the fact that the Camo-Cloak can cover problems you encounter.
Miasman Redcowl - Cadian Command Squad (legs, rebreather) you get 1 long coat per box but 5 rebreathers. Cadian Squad (body, arms, gubbins sort of) not really an issue. Wyldwood Rangers (head) not a serious purchase for just the cloaked heads and would only make sense if you also played Cities of Sigmar in AoS. This one is one of the very difficult ones and you'd have to do lots of sculpting or rely massively on 3rd parties to supply certain parts.
Chem Dogs - Cadian Command Squad (legs, arms) again only one long coat per box. GSC Cultists (body, head) not difficult to source. Overall one of the cheaper options.
Indigan Prefects - GSC Cultists (legs, arms). Scions (body, backpack). Skitarii (head). Tank Crewman (shoulder pads). This one is the worse offender. The amount of money you'd need to spend on even just a squad of these would be painful.
Ventrillian Nobles - 90% of this model is the Cadian Squad with a head swap from the Freeguild Pistoliers. Not particularly difficult.
Ork Hunter - 90% Catchan with some Ork bitz. Very easy.

The point I'm trying to make here is that making a custom Regiment may be easy in the sense that there are many human-scaled kits to convert with but when it comes to cost, at least 50% it's just not worth it compared to buying one box of Space Wolves and having enough bitz to last your lifetime.

Of course GW is going to prescribe building custom models with more GW kits. But there are also 3rd party outlets which offer more options than GW and at a (nuch) lower cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:
Apart from the whole organisation being under the thumb of generally conservative religious nuts that don't like different things and the legal requirement for them to be overtly female you mean?

The Codex Astartes is arguably no less overbearing in terms of defining conventions. The Codex Astartes is also pretty effin specific, but some chapters are more deviant than others.

How spelled out in the lore is it that Sisters follow their doctrine so rigidly (and how well enforced the doctrine is?). My argument is that the only reason we see the (still pretty limited) variation in Space Marines is because Space Marines are under a microscope brought about by continued popularity (and therefore continued pressure to make more variants for $$$).

(Also, it's not like Space Marines aren't also highly conservative religious nuts)

 Insectum7 wrote:
Of course GW is going to prescribe building custom models with more GW kits. But there are also 3rd party outlets which offer more options than GW and at a (nuch) lower cost.

We're talking about diversity in a GW model range, 3rd party companies don't come into consideration. For that specific post even moreso.

The Codex Astartes is arguably no less overbearing in terms of defining conventions. The Codex Astartes is also pretty effin specific, but some chapters are more deviant than others.

The Codex is a set of guidelines. Not a single Chapter has to follow it to the letter, as we see within the background. There is nothing stopping the Ultramarines from deciding to go on crusading for eternity and increasing their numbers beyond the Codex limits. Many of the ex-Legions still had contingencies to basically operate as a Legion anyway such as the Last Wall Protocol or the way all Unforgiven Chapters are subservient to the Dark Angels. Chapters don't need to use the Codex preferred ranks, doctrines, rites, or insignia. The Ordo Astartes is a thing but it is a minor Ordo and it takes some heft deviation (usually the fact a Chapter has turned traitor) for sanctions to be brought down on a Chapter.

How spelled out in the lore is it that Sisters follow their doctrine so rigidly (and how well enforced the doctrine is?).

Honestly? I'm not sure as I don't have the SoB Codex but from what I've read both here and elsewhere, the organisation isn't fond of individualism if it breaks Church rules.

My argument is that the only reason we see the (still pretty limited) variation in Space Marines is because Space Marines are under a microscope brought about by continued popularity (and therefore continued pressure to make more variants for $$$).

Yeah, a limited variation on the eight or so big aesthetic/cultural groups plus numerous other smaller sub-groups and compatibility with its range that surpasses most others. Very limited.

(Also, it's not like Space Marines aren't also highly conservative religious nuts)

Depends on the Chapter, which would be a point to their background being much more fluid.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Just to make a point about the whole "Look at all the Regiments shown in the Guard Codex" thing, we've seen them broken down into their constituent parts but there's no cost analysis behind that. So for the converted Regiments from the 8th Edition Astra Militarum Codex we have:

Spoiler:

Mordian Veteran - Cadian Command Squad (legs, torso, head) the torso and head are 1 each per box. Tank Crewman (arms) you might have some spare but nowhere near enough to make a Regiment of plastic Mordians and none are holding Lasguns in a firing position. Heavy Weapon Team (weapon) comes with loads of spare Lasguns. For this specific conversion (I say "specific" because any deviation would make this much harder) we're looking at around £70-ish if we cheat and get the Start Collecting Box. There is no cost-effective way of replicating this miniature en-masse without lots of sculpting.
Tanith Guardsman - Cadian Command Squad (legs, cape, head) the cape is 1 per box. Catachan Heavy Weapon Team (body, arms, weapon) lots of all of these parts. Tanith are easily one of the simplest Regiments to convert mostly down to the fact that the Camo-Cloak can cover problems you encounter.
Miasman Redcowl - Cadian Command Squad (legs, rebreather) you get 1 long coat per box but 5 rebreathers. Cadian Squad (body, arms, gubbins sort of) not really an issue. Wyldwood Rangers (head) not a serious purchase for just the cloaked heads and would only make sense if you also played Cities of Sigmar in AoS. This one is one of the very difficult ones and you'd have to do lots of sculpting or rely massively on 3rd parties to supply certain parts.
Chem Dogs - Cadian Command Squad (legs, arms) again only one long coat per box. GSC Cultists (body, head) not difficult to source. Overall one of the cheaper options.
Indigan Prefects - GSC Cultists (legs, arms). Scions (body, backpack). Skitarii (head). Tank Crewman (shoulder pads). This one is the worse offender. The amount of money you'd need to spend on even just a squad of these would be painful.
Ventrillian Nobles - 90% of this model is the Cadian Squad with a head swap from the Freeguild Pistoliers. Not particularly difficult.
Ork Hunter - 90% Catchan with some Ork bitz. Very easy.

The point I'm trying to make here is that making a custom Regiment may be easy in the sense that there are many human-scaled kits to convert with but when it comes to cost, at least 50% it's just not worth it compared to buying one box of Space Wolves and having enough bitz to last your lifetime.

Of course GW is going to prescribe building custom models with more GW kits. But there are also 3rd party outlets which offer more options than GW and at a (nuch) lower cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:
Apart from the whole organisation being under the thumb of generally conservative religious nuts that don't like different things and the legal requirement for them to be overtly female you mean?

The Codex Astartes is arguably no less overbearing in terms of defining conventions. The Codex Astartes is also pretty effin specific, but some chapters are more deviant than others.

How spelled out in the lore is it that Sisters follow their doctrine so rigidly (and how well enforced the doctrine is?). My argument is that the only reason we see the (still pretty limited) variation in Space Marines is because Space Marines are under a microscope brought about by continued popularity (and therefore continued pressure to make more variants for $$$).

(Also, it's not like Space Marines aren't also highly conservative religious nuts)

Men... ASTARTES ARE... DA KUSTUM BOYZ!!!!!!... No one else can be adapted like them... And definetly not the SOB that share absolutely no design space with Kustum Boyz... The fact that both armies are mono gender, elite forces, with a religious underpinning, part of The IOM, use bolters and power armour is just a coincidence!!!!

Insectum7 wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Apart from the whole organisation being under the thumb of generally conservative religious nuts that don't like different things and the legal requirement for them to be overtly female you mean?

The Codex Astartes is arguably no less overbearing in terms of defining conventions. The Codex Astartes is also pretty effin specific, but some chapters are more deviant than others.

Specific in how Chapters are allowed to look? Not really. Even their iconography is varied among "Codex" Chapters. The only specificities of the Codex come to organisation and in combat doctrines, but even those aspects nearly always come second to the individual flavour and theme of the Chapter in question.

Sorry, but this one doesn't stick.

How spelled out in the lore is it that Sisters follow their doctrine so rigidly (and how well enforced the doctrine is?).

It's not spelled out, but it's absence is important to note.

Again - I've outright said in this thread how I'd actually like to see nearly all aspects of lore that constrain customisation to be abolished, be that in GW promoting different aesthetics and ideas in other factions (Sisters, for example), or in removing various bits of needlessly exclusive lore. But, as per the question in the OP, it's hardly controversial to admit that Sisters don't get the same chances to be customised that GW affords to Guardsmen and Space Marines.

My argument is that the only reason we see the (still pretty limited) variation in Space Marines is because Space Marines are under a microscope brought about by continued popularity (and therefore continued pressure to make more variants for $$$).

Sure, this is certainly possible - but you're still buying into my general point that Space Marines *are* given more variation than Sisters, like it or not.

(Also, it's not like Space Marines aren't also highly conservative religious nuts)

I mean, they kind of aren't? Highly conservative to existing Chapter doctrines, yes, religious to existing Chapter cults, yes, but that's very different to the centralised conservatism of the Sororitas.

Chapters are loyal to the Chapter. The Sororitas are loyal to the Church. There's a difference here.

Vatsetis wrote:ASTARTES ARE... DA KUSTUM BOYZ!!!!!!... No one else can be adapted like them...

I mean, yes. Perhaps with the exception of Guardsmen, yes, Space Marines are absolutely the dominant example of player customisation.

If this is sarcasm, you might want to posit an actual rebuttal, otherwise you're kinda just conceding the argument here, which I certainly wouldn't complain about.

And definetly not the SOB that share absolutely no design space with Kustum Boyz...

They don't share any more than the Custodes do. Is this a weak attempt at sarcasm? Again - your technique needs work.

The fact that both armies are mono gender, elite forces, with a religious underpinning, part of The IOM, use bolters and power armour is just a coincidence!!!!

So, like Custodes?

Hell, Custodes are another example of what I mean by limited customisation. All we get are various palette swaps and different missions - but these are small differences, barely noticeable. I'd like to see more variety in the Custodes, more aesthetic options available - different animal motifs, different forms of armour, and suchlike. But I'd be lying if I said that GW provided the ammunition for these changes, like how they don't provide such options for the Sororitas either.

If anything, you're making a stronger case for the Custodes and Sisters to be related.
But that would be getting off topic, wouldn't it?

 Gert wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Of course GW is going to prescribe building custom models with more GW kits. But there are also 3rd party outlets which offer more options than GW and at a (nuch) lower cost.

We're talking about diversity in a GW model range . . .

Which is off topic really. Being easy to customize or not isn't really relevant, all this does is bring to focus that Space Marines are spoiled for choice in terms of kits because their product line is ginormous. But even so, the IG line still has had more variety of regimental uniform through the ages. Also, pretending that 3rd party models aren't an options is pretty disingenuous.

 Gert wrote:

The Codex Astartes is arguably no less overbearing in terms of defining conventions. The Codex Astartes is also pretty effin specific, but some chapters are more deviant than others.

The Codex is a set of guidelines. Not a single Chapter has to follow it to the letter, as we see within the background. There is nothing stopping the Ultramarines from deciding to go on crusading for eternity and increasing their numbers beyond the Codex limits. Many of the ex-Legions still had contingencies to basically operate as a Legion anyway such as the Last Wall Protocol or the way all Unforgiven Chapters are subservient to the Dark Angels. Chapters don't need to use the Codex preferred ranks, doctrines, rites, or insignia. The Ordo Astartes is a thing but it is a minor Ordo and it takes some heft deviation (usually the fact a Chapter has turned traitor) for sanctions to be brought down on a Chapter.

Uhhh, that's definitely not true.That would certainly bring suspicion down on the chapter and the Inquisition/high-lords would be very keen on scrutinizing such behavior.

But whose to say that sisterhood Doctrine has to be followed to the letter? And what IS that doctrine?

 Gert wrote:

How spelled out in the lore is it that Sisters follow their doctrine so rigidly (and how well enforced the doctrine is?).

Honestly? I'm not sure as I don't have the SoB Codex but from what I've read both here and elsewhere, the organisation isn't fond of individualism if it breaks Church rules.

Which means you're just making assertions that you aren't able to back up. How strict is the governing body of the Sisterhood, and how rigidly do they hold their sub-Orders to any doctrine?

 Gert wrote:

My argument is that the only reason we see the (still pretty limited) variation in Space Marines is because Space Marines are under a microscope brought about by continued popularity (and therefore continued pressure to make more variants for $$$).

Yeah, a limited variation on the eight or so big aesthetic/cultural groups plus numerous other smaller sub-groups and compatibility with its range that surpasses most others. Very limited.

Limited compared to Guard. Limited enough to require color to depict it (hint: because they look virtually identical otherwise).

 Gert wrote:

(Also, it's not like Space Marines aren't also highly conservative religious nuts)

Depends on the Chapter, which would be a point to their background being much more fluid.

Find me the chapter you feel is least bound by tradition. The vast majority of them have been largely codex adherent for the lifetime of the chapter up to 10,000 years. Only the simultaneous return of Guilliman and the sudden appearance of Primaris has bucked the trend. Even the notably deviant chapters like Space Wolves have their own traditions and beliefs that are followed intensely and govern the way they operate.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Also, pretending that 3rd party models aren't an options is pretty disingenuous.

Not exactly - not when the discussion has made it clear that it's GW not providing the same freedom of customisation that's the main factor here.

Sure, anyone can use any kind of third party thing to change whatever you like - but that's not even close to the same as GW explicitly encouraging such customisation.

And, for what it's worth, if we were to start including third-party additions as part of the repertoire of "customisable factions", Space Marines would *still* be far and away the most customisable.

How strict is the governing body of the Sisterhood, and how rigidly do they hold their sub-Orders to any doctrine?

Evidently strict enough that we don't see any major variety among the Sisterhood.

Yes, that's an argument from absence, which is, as I'm sure we'll all agree, stupid, but that's my point - there is an absence of creativity in GW's portrayal of the Sisters of Battle, and that's simply a fact.

Do I want that changed? Also yes, but that's not the topic.

Limited compared to Guard. Limited enough to require color to depict it (hint: because they look virtually identical otherwise).

Eh, not really. You can blame GW's specific digital copypaste design on that, because even with colour removed, an Ultramarine doesn't look like a Space Wolf, or a Storm Warden doesn't look like a White Scar.

Even the notably deviant chapters like Space Wolves have their own traditions and beliefs that are followed intensely and govern the way they operate.

Yes, absolutely agreed - but that's the thing: it's their own traditions that they are hidebound to, not the decrees and whims of a centralised Ecclesiarchy.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Apart from the whole organisation being under the thumb of generally conservative religious nuts that don't like different things and the legal requirement for them to be overtly female you mean?

The Codex Astartes is arguably no less overbearing in terms of defining conventions. The Codex Astartes is also pretty effin specific, but some chapters are more deviant than others.

Specific in how Chapters are allowed to look? Not really. Even their iconography is varied among "Codex" Chapters. The only specificities of the Codex come to organisation and in combat doctrines, but even those aspects nearly always come second to the individual flavour and theme of the Chapter in question.

Sorry, but this one doesn't stick.

I believe this is the only rebuttal required:

Insectum7 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Specific in how Chapters are allowed to look? Not really. Even their iconography is varied among "Codex" Chapters. The only specificities of the Codex come to organisation and in combat doctrines, but even those aspects nearly always come second to the individual flavour and theme of the Chapter in question.

Sorry, but this one doesn't stick.

I believe this is the only rebuttal required:

Spoiler:

Even in how they look, Space Marine variety largely comes down to color.

Oh wow! You chose the bland, dumbed down template designed versions! That's definitely not cherry picking data, is it?

Tell me again how this is the same as this?

Again, I'm happy to admit that the image you've picked is definitely indicating that the only difference in in colour palette, but we're also all aware that this is a case of GW cutting corners with lazy Codex design, as the wealth of other art depicting unique and distinct Chapters would indicate.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
How spelled out in the lore is it that Sisters follow their doctrine so rigidly (and how well enforced the doctrine is?). It's not spelled out, but it's absence is important to note.

Pure assumption.

As would be any assumption that there was diversity.

All I'm saying is that GW don't showcase it. That's a fact.

Provide evidence that individual convents or minor Orders cannot deviate from prescribed doctrine. (A prescribed doctrine which isn't even well defined in the first place.)

Provide evidence they can.

For what it's worth, I personally agree that Sisters should be more diverse. The fact of the matter is that right now, they're not displayed as such. Can you dispute that? Can you show me culturally diverse Sisters in GW's material?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:
Not exactly - not when the discussion has made it clear that it's GW not providing the same freedom of customisation that's the main factor here.

You appear to be making the argument that the model products are defining a lore in a way that strictly contradicts the actual lore.

Like your reductive picture of Space Marines defining lore in a way that strictly contradicts actual lore too?

What I'm saying is that the models are absolutely a form of GW's intent when it comes to what factions they deem "customisable" or not. Guardsmen are customisable still - evidenced by the cases of the Ventrillians and Salvar. I'm not disputing that.
However, if you need to use third party cases to argue how "GW market this faction as customisable", you're missing the point. It doesn't matter how many third party things exist if GW aren't putting in the legwork to encourage that material.

Third party stuff exists for guardsmen *because* GW encouraged it in the past. They haven't with Sisters.

I don't require 3rd party models to make my point. GW makes the point for me by showing a wider variety of lowly Guardsmen from different regiments than yes, even your (cherry picked) veteran UM vs. veteran SW example.

If you paint Intercessors Gray and put a wolf on them, they're Space Wolves. If you paint them blue and put an inverted omega on them, they're Ultramarines.

If you paint Catachans blue they don't become Mordian Iron Guard.

If you have the current Sisters codex, find a statement that minor Orders Millitant don't deviate from the major ones, and that local convents don't have their own heraldries/traditions etc.

Insectum7 wrote:I don't require 3rd party models to make my point.

Sure, that's why you didn't say "But there are also 3rd party outlets which offer more options", did you?

GW makes the point for me by showing a wider variety of lowly Guardsmen from different regiments than yes, even your (cherry picked) veteran UM vs. veteran SW example.

And how many of those regiments are still marketed?

*Showed, is perhaps a better way to describe your comment.

Also, I don't hear you saying how those two pictures I showed (which are completely standard images for those factions) are the same thing. Strange.

If you paint Intercessors Gray and put a wolf on them, they're Space Wolves. If you paint them blue and put an inverted omega on them, they're Ultramarines.

If you paint Catachans blue they don't become Mordian Iron Guard.

But if you paint Cadians in white and black, they become the "Truskan Snowhounds", or the "Faeburn Vanquishers". Sorry, but again, Guardsmen are just as guilty of being reduced down to colour schemes.

However, in your example, if I take a Space Wolves model, with all the trappings that Space Wolves *are entirely supported as having*, and paint it blue, it ain't an Ultramarine. If I take an Ultramarine, bedazzled in all the finery of Macragge, as they have also been outlined to be able to look like, they would never look like a Space Wolf. You see, that's because GW have made it clear that Space Wolves and Ultramarines can have drastically different appearances, if you so wanted them to - the same cannot be said of the Sororitas.

You see - we can both play this little game.

If you have the current Sisters codex, find a statement that minor Orders Millitant don't deviate from the major ones, and that local convents don't have their own heraldries/traditions etc.

If you have it, can you show me an example of a minor Order Militant that does, because that was the main point I've been making this whole time.

You seem to be under the impression that I'm trying to justify that Sisters aren't diverse. I'm not. I'm stating that they have never been portrayed as diverse in the same way that Space Marines or Guardsmen are. Can you disprove that?

It is crucial to remember that any official range we see in Warhammer 40'000 these days will be streamlined and monolithic in looks. This is not how things actually look in-setting, but a necessity enforced upon Games Workshop by the Codex threadmill, army book straitjacket and need to supply ever-growing army ranges with expensive plastic moulds.

Outside of the ever-popular Space Marines in all their various flavours, only once did GW truly dabble in releasing a swathe of different Imperial forces of the same army but from different worlds: The 1990s Imperial Guard range.

1980s Imperial Army was all Necromundan.

1990s Imperial Guard did a swathe of different regiments.

2000s and 2010s Imperial Guard was all Cadian, with Catachan command kit and Vostroyans as the last spurt of brilliant creativity for niche Guard regiments. They did have some variant regiments in a White Dwarf article, including highlanders and Savlar Chem Dogs.

Forgeworld did pick up the slack with Elysians and Death Korps of Krieg, but both required extensive model ranges and could not just be done with max three kits and call it a day. Unlike 1980s Warhammer releases, mind you.

Adepta Sororitas have been neglected for so long, that only now may we see them grow into a whole flora of peculiar local orders and strange insular microcultures. This process is well under way among fan artists, some of whose concepts' look very good. Eventually we may see Sisters of Battle receive a treatment of variant flavours, if their popularity prove high enough and if GW designers have ideas they want to add to the setting.

The easiest way to implement it is to add conversion kits as add-ons to existing kits. But there must exist a striking enough aesthetic with popular enough demand for this to make commercial sense. This is where background and art comes into play, in order to create demand.

The bottom line is this:

Do not confuse the streamlined official artwork and model lines with the incredibly varied Imperium of Man. The need for plastic kits for vast army ranges has enforced creative limits on Games Workshop, ones the studio has fought back against every decade. Specialist Games, Dreadfleet, Space Hulk and so on are all attempts to break free from the straitjacket and recapture the freewheeling 1980s creativity that characterized the studio.

If GW don't do weird orders and peculiar local cultural variants, then we, the community, will have to do so. True to the spirit of the setting.

I for one hope to doodle an Ethiopian nun in space Sororitas down the line.