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 Marshal Loss wrote:
... along with a redone Defiler at some point in the future.

Let's hope !

DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:
... along with a redone Defiler at some point in the future.

Let's hope !

Amen, the defiler sculpt sucks ass. I'm considering learning 3d modeling to make one myself thats more in-line with the other demon engines

As for the plastic spartan, i don't care if it doesnt get a chaos vehicle sprue, i'm just gonna stick some 3d printed bodyparts and flesh on it to chaosify it

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:
... along with a redone Defiler at some point in the future.

Let's hope !

Amen, the defiler sculpt sucks ass. I'm considering learning 3d modeling to make one myself thats more in-line with the other demon engines

As for the plastic spartan, i don't care if it doesnt get a chaos vehicle sprue, i'm just gonna stick some 3d printed bodyparts and flesh on it to chaosify it

I think the ship sailed for a new defiler, I was convinced it would be coming this edition and get the monolith "super heavy but shouldn't be" treatment. Sadly with the profiles in Tsons and DG being as they are they'd need to alter those too so seems unlikely.

I've now played some games with my BL in 9th against Daemons, Marines and Necrons.
Let's just say I'll be keeping the CSM in storage until the new Codex drops.

 Gert wrote:
I've now played some games with my BL in 9th against Daemons, Marines and Necrons.
Let's just say I'll be keeping the CSM in storage until the new Codex drops.

Our marines dying to throwaway shots really stings.

This could be nostalgia talking but I love the defiler model... it is dated though.

 Gert wrote:
I've now played some games with my BL in 9th against Daemons, Marines and Necrons.
Let's just say I'll be keeping the CSM in storage until the new Codex drops.

I feel you, I only use my iron warriors against extremely weak opponents who are on the same level. I've had 2 wins and a narrow loss so far using the actual rules in the codex, the victories were against Tau and a grot army lol....

I've played a few other games with them but we literally gave CSM 2 wounds and an extra attack and the same for terminators all for no points increase but I still managed to lose to Custodes and only narrowly beat necrons on points.

My blood angels have taken centre stage for now as I actually get enjoyable games with them.

DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:
... along with a redone Defiler at some point in the future.

Let's hope !

Let's not.

Let us instead hope that GW release a Venomcrawler in a separate kit. That they release Oblits as a separate box of 3 that can also make Mutilators. The Defiler has a model, these two have very specific models only available in one kit.

Oh God... Oblits are going to become 1-2 per squad, aren't they?

Woah woah woah, that's dangerous talk H.M.B.C.!

There's no way chaos deserves that....


I would love for a Venomcrawler, Obliterator, greater Possessed individual kit

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:
... along with a redone Defiler at some point in the future.

Let's hope !

Let's not.

Let us instead hope that GW release a Venomcrawler in a separate kit. That they release Oblits as a separate box of 3 that can also make Mutilators. The Defiler has a model, these two have very specific models only available in one kit.

Oh God... Oblits are going to become 1-2 per squad, aren't they?

But ... but, why not both ?

By the way, I wonder if the Defiler sculpt is really that unpopular. Personally I find it a bit crummy.

I think Deffy looks better than the fiends or the Crawler, you guys are talking pure heresy!

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
I think Deffy looks better than the fiends or the Crawler, you guys are talking pure heresy!

Actually judging by the room I think it is us that are the heretics for liking the defiler’s current model so
much. Then again this is a discussion about heretic astartes so maybe it’s not such a bad thing to be heretics here XD

dont wanna be sceptic , or something

i think the Thausand sons codex shows , that this army

is weak

personally i would convert chaos space marines to necron spyder

)))


Automatically Appended Next Post:
i mean i'm serious,

Hellbrute is such a beast

for conversion

I’m about to counts as my word bearers as space wolves running my csm squads as grey hunters, and my possessed as the wulfen and not bother using their aura and other buffs that I don’t feel represent possessed, and I get my bike lord option back =D and helbrute as the wulfen dreadnought. And chosen as some sort of veteran, they have a million different vets to choose from. The only downside is not having access to daemons or things like my defiler... but at least I can put my models on the table top and feel like I am actually playing my army instead of a half constructed codex.

One thing they need to really figure out, is how to make the actual chaos space marines fun and flavorful to use while not feeling like we are playing with one hand tied behind our backs.

I mean, the codex is called chaos space marines. How sad is it that most competitive lists play with zero chaos space marines (other than our HQs) unless they are world Eaters or emperor's children.

I mean, you can say whatever you like about chaos warbands, and how we have other stuff as well like spawn, cultists, demons allies, but it shouldn't be to the extent that our lists have zero chaos space marines...

Our codex is called chaos space marines, it isn't called chaos allies... chaos space marines should be front and center of the book.

I again don't understand why CSM ever bothered to turn traitor. It was supposed to be for more power, but instead, the average CSM model turned traitor to get half the wounds of a loyalist marine, forfeit lots of wargear, and gave up chapter tactics, and have nothing like the transhuman strat.

The chaos gods really did a bang up job in marketing and advertisement.

"Join chaos and get ultimate power!"

(For most of the chaos space marines ... in actual fact : joins chaos and got weaker). lol

Eldenfirefly wrote:
One thing they need to really figure out, is how to make the actual chaos space marines fun and flavorful to use while not feeling like we are playing with one hand tied behind our backs.

I mean, the codex is called chaos space marines. How sad is it that most competitive lists play with zero chaos space marines (other than our HQs) unless they are world Eaters or emperor's children.

I mean, you can say whatever you like about chaos warbands, and how we have other stuff as well like spawn, cultists, demons allies, but it shouldn't be to the extent that our lists have zero chaos space marines...

Our codex is called chaos space marines, it isn't called chaos allies... chaos space marines should be front and center of the book.

I again don't understand why CSM ever bothered to turn traitor. It was supposed to be for more power, but instead, the average CSM model turned traitor to get half the wounds of a loyalist marine, forfeit lots of wargear, and gave up chapter tactics, and have nothing like the transhuman strat.

The chaos gods really did a bang up job in marketing and advertisement.

"Join chaos and get ultimate power!"

(For most of the chaos space marines ... in actual fact : joins chaos and got weaker). lol

In the end the Chaos gods failed before the strongest of foes: GW's prerogatives

But, no jokes, I think CSM will always suffer from the comparison to their loyalist counterpart. Or at least it will be the case until GW changes direction concerning choosing what gets released, how and when.

Sure CSM have the edge as far as fluff, theming and overall aesthetic is concerned (In my opinion). But at this point most of this fluff, thematic elements and aesthetic is years (sometimes even decades) old. Who knows how much is left amongst GW's creative teams of those who once created it ?
And it's something we can say for most factions in the game, in my opinion. I can easily imagine that rules designers, artists, marketing and so on are handed a portfolio every time they work on an army or a model. With inside it the ( more or less) broad strokes of what they cannot and can do. Which is of course necessary to keep the aesthetic coherency of each army. But I can't help but feel that creative are forced to follow strictly rules set decades before them.

What always surprised me was the absolute absence of auteurism in the hobby. Of course GW had and still has it's fair share of famous (and infamous) creators. But especially nowadays who can tell who worked on what ? No models are subtitled: "Designed by so and so under the direction of that person". Codexes and the illustration/short stories that populate them are left without even a footnote giving us the name of their authors. In this situation, who knows what room is left to individual's innovations and originality ? But I can't help but think it's a strange way to anonymise creators. To obscure them under the crushing mention of: "Made by Games Workshop"

Well I guess I went somewhat out of scope
But that's what I feel about the situation.

TLDR: We shouldn't compare our spiky boys to the poster boys because we will only get hurt ? And we should hope our codex's next lead designer will love them as much as we do ? And that they are free to realize their vision ? idk

Eldenfirefly wrote:
One thing they need to really figure out, is how to make the actual chaos space marines fun and flavorful to use while not feeling like we are playing with one hand tied behind our backs.

I mean, the codex is called chaos space marines. How sad is it that most competitive lists play with zero chaos space marines (other than our HQs) unless they are world Eaters or emperor's children.

I mean, you can say whatever you like about chaos warbands, and how we have other stuff as well like spawn, cultists, demons allies, but it shouldn't be to the extent that our lists have zero chaos space marines...

Hear, hear.

Honestly, they could make CSMs relevant again through the use of marks. Give them a statline buff that puts them at the level of some Primaris variants and call it a day.

The only thing keeping CSMs in any lists is ObSec. Can't remember the last time I did a wound with a Bolter. That go so far against the narrative it's not funny.

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I again don't understand why CSM ever bothered to turn traitor. It was supposed to be for more power, but instead, the average CSM model turned traitor to get half the wounds of a loyalist marine, forfeit lots of wargear, and gave up chapter tactics, and have nothing like the transhuman strat.

The chaos gods really did a bang up job in marketing and advertisement.

"Join chaos and get ultimate power!"

(For most of the chaos space marines ... in actual fact : joins chaos and got weaker). lol

And Sorcerers. Why would anyone embrace the Dark Majesty of the Chaos Gods to have powers inferior to those of the average Librarian?

The vision for CSM has been screwed up since 5th edition, when they scaled down and simplified the Codexes. Whatever balance they need to bring to the tabletop, there should always be a reflection of the fluff. The absence of a power-driven incentive to be a traitor makes them seem weak by comparison.

Don't get me wrong, I love Chaos and will always have a CSM army. I just can't see why they took the threat level of Chaos down so far.

Meaningful Marks (as in doing more than just adding a keyword) and Veteran Abilities. Marks to show the power recieved from the Chaos Gods, and Veteran Abilities to show what they've learned from all those years of fighting.

Veteran abilities are something I'm personally a bit iffy on.

Just because they've been around for awhile does not mean they'll be a veteran. They might also be a gibbering lunatic.

DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

 Marshal Loss wrote:
... along with a redone Defiler at some point in the future.

Let's hope !

Let's not.

Let us instead hope that GW release a Venomcrawler in a separate kit. That they release Oblits as a separate box of 3 that can also make Mutilators. The Defiler has a model, these two have very specific models only available in one kit.

Oh God... Oblits are going to become 1-2 per squad, aren't they?

But ... but, why not both ?

By the way, I wonder if the Defiler sculpt is really that unpopular. Personally I find it a bit crummy.

I was really happy back in the day to field a unit which could fight in melee AND unleash a 5" template in the shooting phase. However the defiler caused the dreadnoughts and vindicators to look bad because it performed both of their roles.
Verdict: Sales driven rule design and thus bad.

What about the model itself? Looking at it's stats alone you would expect something about the size of a deadnought but it turned out to be gigantic in proportion to the rest of the minis in 3rd. So it really looked out of place and someone who would have no clue about the game would think that the defiler because of it's immense size would regularly take on IKs.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Veteran abilities are something I'm personally a bit iffy on.

Just because they've been around for awhile does not mean they'll be a veteran. They might also be a gibbering lunatic.

Yes, but that gibbering lunatic is also an Astartes so they at least have that going for them...

Racerguy180 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Veteran abilities are something I'm personally a bit iffy on.

Just because they've been around for awhile does not mean they'll be a veteran. They might also be a gibbering lunatic.

Yes, but that gibbering lunatic is also an Astartes so they at least have that going for them...

You could represent the lunacy by abilities that focus on berserk melee combat.

Or, if you want to represent someone who's 10,000 years old of chaos, but is more loony than what's good for them, just don't give them abilities. They've still got their baseline Astartes instincts and gear, but are too far gone to be much better.

 JNAProductions wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Veteran abilities are something I'm personally a bit iffy on.

Just because they've been around for awhile does not mean they'll be a veteran. They might also be a gibbering lunatic.

Yes, but that gibbering lunatic is also an Astartes so they at least have that going for them...

You could represent the lunacy by abilities that focus on berserk melee combat.

Or, if you want to represent someone who's 10,000 years old of chaos, but is more loony than what's good for them, just don't give them abilities. They've still got their baseline Astartes instincts and gear, but are too far gone to be much better.

10,000 years of existence is going to make anyone a little crazy, never mind doing the time in the Warp.

Taking the less popular position here. A Vet is going to have more experience than a recent Renegade because he's had to survive the Warp. Harboring ancient bitterness plus insanity makes him positively lethal.

A recent Renegade is going to be concerned about raids, keeping the Warband together and not being murdered by an Aspiring Champion. A Vet is going to have a single-minded concern with sadistical acts of violence against an old foe. That Vet has already seen all the universe has to offer and laughed.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Veteran abilities are something I'm personally a bit iffy on.

Just because they've been around for awhile does not mean they'll be a veteran. They might also be a gibbering lunatic.

Yes, but that gibbering lunatic is also an Astartes so they at least have that going for them...

You could represent the lunacy by abilities that focus on berserk melee combat.

Or, if you want to represent someone who's 10,000 years old of chaos, but is more loony than what's good for them, just don't give them abilities. They've still got their baseline Astartes instincts and gear, but are too far gone to be much better.

10,000 years of existence is going to make anyone a little crazy, never mind doing the time in the Warp.

Taking the less popular position here. A Vet is going to have more experience than a recent Renegade because he's had to survive the Warp. Harboring ancient bitterness plus insanity makes him positively lethal.

A recent Renegade is going to be concerned about raids, keeping the Warband together and not being murdered by an Aspiring Champion. A Vet is going to have a single-minded concern with sadistical acts of violence against an old foe. That Vet has already seen all the universe has to offer and laughed.

And that vet might have also accumulated so many traumata in the warp that his mind is reduced to vegetable status. You can argue both ways.

 Strg Alt wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

Racerguy180 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Veteran abilities are something I'm personally a bit iffy on.

Just because they've been around for awhile does not mean they'll be a veteran. They might also be a gibbering lunatic.

Yes, but that gibbering lunatic is also an Astartes so they at least have that going for them...

You could represent the lunacy by abilities that focus on berserk melee combat.

Or, if you want to represent someone who's 10,000 years old of chaos, but is more loony than what's good for them, just don't give them abilities. They've still got their baseline Astartes instincts and gear, but are too far gone to be much better.

10,000 years of existence is going to make anyone a little crazy, never mind doing the time in the Warp.

Taking the less popular position here. A Vet is going to have more experience than a recent Renegade because he's had to survive the Warp. Harboring ancient bitterness plus insanity makes him positively lethal.

A recent Renegade is going to be concerned about raids, keeping the Warband together and not being murdered by an Aspiring Champion. A Vet is going to have a single-minded concern with sadistical acts of violence against an old foe. That Vet has already seen all the universe has to offer and laughed.

And that vet might have also accumulated so many traumata in the warp that his mind is reduced to vegetable status. You can argue both ways.

A vegetable won't last long-they'll be killed for their wargear in a minute.

In other words, they won't even hit the table-they'd be dead before the battle ever starts.

... y’all gonna hate me for this one, and I honestly feel like this really only helps chaos relative to the meta and not the entire meta... since rules bloat and codex creep is here to stay, why not hybridize the loyalist and heretic codices? For legion and warband traits, use the loyalist table (custom and otherwise, all traitors were loyal at some point and they don’t just forget how to kick butt in their unique way), for strats use the chaos codex, for cost use an equivalent in the space marine codex but use the data sheets in the chaos codex (but add the extra wound we waited forever for) and call it a day? Daemon engines will sadly be left unsupported (borrow a friends death guard or tsons codex to figure out how that changes) but, it would put chaos almost on the same footing as loyalists. Shouldn’t be that difficult to convince a space marine player to play you unless it really bugs them to play against their own rules. Also of course keep hateful assault and volleys and death to the false emperor, drop and they shall know no fear.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I would like to say that my preferred solution is scaling back overall deadliness and rules bloat and making half the learning curve remembering how 5 different special rules on your model plus a strat synergize, and memorizing that many special rules, and knowing they can easily change by declaring a different sub faction key word before the game...

 Strg Alt wrote:
And that vet might have also accumulated so many traumata in the warp that his mind is reduced to vegetable status. You can argue both ways.

I don't find the Withering Prune of Chaos idea very compelling.

A Vet reduced to vegetable status would not be able to march to war. His compatriots despise weakness and would have made an example of him a long time ago. His Gods would have engineered his end to serve some dark purpose before the campaign began.

Veggie Marines may exist somewhere, perhaps in large numbers. But they're not the ones who go off to fight.

Hmmm, I think marks of chaos might be difficult to balance though. Its hard enough to make one mark competitive, it will be even harder to make four such marks all competitive. People will just gravitate to the best mark and it will then pigeon hole the CSM armies into monogod.

Its like how that shoot twice strategem basically pigeon holed all shooty lists to go slanaash because it only applied to units with mark of slanaash.

I want to play a Black Legion CSM army. I don't necessarily want to play a mark of slanaash army...

I hope they make give black legion something distinct in the new codex that makes them worthy of being one of the most feared traitor legions in the fluff. I mean, The black legion in the fluff is the largest traitor legion by far, and Abby has launched 13 massive black crusades. They took down Cadia too. Black legion shouldn't be a joke to be made fun of... :(

GW needs to realise that how important good villains are. If you make the arch nemesis a joke, it doesn't show off your power much does it? Luke Skywalker needs to have powerful arch nemesis like Darth Vadar, the rebellion needs to fight an OP Empire with Death stars. Imagine if Luke Skywalker and the rebellion had a weak joke of a villain to fight... that would have made original star wars trilogy far less epic.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Strg Alt wrote:
And that vet might have also accumulated so many traumata in the warp that his mind is reduced to vegetable status. You can argue both ways.

I don't find the Withering Prune of Chaos idea very compelling.

A Vet reduced to vegetable status would not be able to march to war. His compatriots despise weakness and would have made an example of him a long time ago. His Gods would have engineered his end to serve some dark purpose before the campaign began.

Veggie Marines may exist somewhere, perhaps in large numbers. But they're not the ones who go off to fight.

They get shoved into Helbrutes, don't they?

No the ones in Helbrutes are just regular Marine Dreadnought candidates that have been driven mad from the lack of sensation of war.

Unlike Marine Dreads who are honoured and wise and slumber between campaigns, Chaos Dreads are chained up with no way to do anything between battles and go mad with the endless sensationless waiting. And then when they're in battle, even the stuff they kill makes them feel nothing. They are pitiable creatures, but not vegetables.