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 LordofHats wrote:
The thing I've kind of settled on that really separates old Star Trek from new Star Trek is the sense of optimism has been cut from the franchise.

Star Trek is a optimistic vision of a humanity that has achieved some sense of utopia in its own time. They still have problems and there are still trials and flaws in the hearts of the characters and the world around them, but their prevailing attitude is that these struggles can be overcome. The classic era of Star Trek (TOS to lets say Voyager) did various plays on this premise and the places such people might go the situations they might encounter, but there was always this optimistic tone to the shows. Even during the darkest moments like the Dominion War and first contact with the Borg, that the future could be a better place with better people at least trying to solve their problems in better ways.

This really came home for me when I tried watching Picard and couldn't. It's not that dark Star Trek can't be done, but Picard wasn't dark Star Trek. It was just this edgy and gritty action banaza and I'm going to set aside any other criticisms I have of it (and Discovery's) writing too focus just on the thing that I think they're lacking.

They're not optimistic about the future. In newer Star Trek shows, the future is just as bleak, frightening, and chaotic as the present. The Federation is not an enlightened utopia striving to be better even when it stumbles, it's just as fethed up as anywhere else and paradise is a lie.

And that's not Star Trek.

The big exception is Lower Decks, which I've caved in a watched and I very much like. It's not an A+ series. It relies too much on in-jokes and references IMO, but it does have that optimism and enthusiasm for the possibilities of the future Discovery and Picard are too busy being edgy and 'serious' to bother with. I particularly enjoy the characters of Tendi and Boimler, who feel like they're living the life that every Star Trek fan would like to live, exploring the stars, developing themselves, and embracing the awe of what they're doing and where they are with the utmost enthusiasm. That's Star Trek to me.

Yeah this. To me, Star Trek is supposed to be a celebration of the best that humanity can be, not a generic blockbuster wannabe soulless laser light show (Abrams).

 Lance845 wrote:


Because in order to hold a mirror up to today, you need the Federation to fall into ineffective inaction due to calculated or negligent misinformation and more or less watch it degrade and fall apart.

With that context, in order to have your hope and eat it too, you need an outside perspective that is effected by but still outside of the Federation but acting to find solutions and salvage the situation and come out the other side with whatever comes next.

The Federations tech doesn't matter if they are grid locked out of using it.

Isn't this kind of Disco S3?? I mean, lets set aside "how does burnham save the day today?" elements for a moment. The entire ship ends up in the wrong century, and now you have a crew out of time, bringing their ideals with them confronting an entirely new galaxy, and a Federation seemingly on the verge of collapse (well, at least until burnham can apply her magic touch through intentional disobeying orders, circumventing command channels, and romancing a temporal local).

Without going too much into spoilers for those who /want/ to watch it, there are several scenes where, Discovery is trying to piece together this grand plot, and the federation has either dug in on a faulty position, or willfully ignores new information. . . OR having to deal with a separated Vulcan and all of their nonsense to gain access to information.

Sure, its probably not the most well executed story telling out there, but I do think it is there, IF you can push past "burnham saves the day".

 Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Sure, its probably not the most well executed story telling out there

The sun is a little warm.

DS9, TNG and VOY are my go-to series. I grew up with them and they're so well ingrained in who I am that it's easy for me to use episodes of those shows to help when I'm down, or stressed in life.

The new Star Trek stuff hasn't had the same effect. The new movies were just awful, though I held that opinion about all of the movies from the 90s/2000s as well. I've always been of the opinion that Star Trek just doesn't work in film because the core idea is to tell a story about a group of characters and you need a lot more time than two hours to do that.

Take this example from DS9:

Nog formerly requests Sisko's letter of recommendation for his application to Starfleet academy. That's in "Heart of Stone" (S3E14). But if you look at his character, and his reasons for wanting to join Starfleet, the apotheosis of that decision can be seen as early as "A Man Alone" (S1, E4) and "The Nagus" (S1, E11). But if you think about it it possibly goes even deeper as we know that Rom and Nog came to Quark's bar DURRING The Cardassian occupation of Bajor, meaning both Rom and Nog would have been witnesses to those crimes the Cardassian military committed on Terok Nor, and that possibly would have been the catalyst for Nog's eventual decision as he clearly acts more like his gentle father than his aggressive uncle.

Over the next four seasons Nog's character grows considerably both in attitude, maturity and intelligence. By the time we get to one of my favorite "two-parters" of all of Star Trek, "The Siege of AR-558" (S7E8) and its technical follow-up episode, "It's Only a Paper Moon" (S7E10), Nog's entire character has grown and changed from when we first me him into the very model of a Starfleet officer, showing how he's embraced the ideals, even when we see he still brings the best of his culture to his new collective "Treachery, Faith and the Great River" (S7E6).

None of this would have been possible in even a trilogy of films, at least not to the level of development and time put into one character, who began as a minor character at that. I mean I didn't even touch on how Nog is challenged in "Valliant" (S6E22) or "Rocks and Shoals" (S6E2), and in "In the Cards" (S5E25) where we see traces of Nogs new personality and character being explored.

But none of the new shows have even tried to do something like this, Picard has so far been bland and uninspired, where as Discovery has been a cluster chuck of just...I don't even know how to describe it. Even Enterprise (I'd argue that Enterprise is an even bigger fuckup than anything produced in the last ten years) had better flow and direction than Discovery has so far...

It just amazes me that stuff like Axanar can be so well loved by the community and so supported, yet Paramount can look at it and still claim to not know why Star Trek is a failing franchise...almost as if they're being deliberately obtuse.

 lord_blackfang wrote:


Yeah this. To me, Star Trek is supposed to be a celebration of the best that humanity can be, not a generic blockbuster wannabe soulless laser light show (Abrams).

While I agree, I think Star Trek is more akin to what Data said to Lal in "The Offspring" (TNG S3E16) "It is the struggle itself that is most important. We must strive to be more than we are. It does not matter that we will not reach our ultimate goal. The effort itself yields its own reward.”

And that's what I think Trek is. We see lots of times where the ideals of the Federation are bent, twisted or corrupted, but it's the fact that as a whole the organization seems to seek to confront these issues, rather than hide them, S31 aside of course which is a different beast.

I'll say it too, every time I get into one of these discussions. Destroying Romulus and Vulcan and making their destructions "Cannon" was a horrendous idea that hasn't served any important role in creating stories and instead has damaged several possible subplots that could have been used in future franchise media.

In going back to OP's question: I don't know what the best option is for the future of the franchise other than to say that Star Trek needs its own Jon Favreau and Dave Filoni, producers who fundamentally understand what the franchise is actually about.

In a way we need another "Next Generation" to once again revive the series and incorporate the best of the world we live in (in terms of modern values) with the very heart of what Roddenberry set out to create all those years ago.

Something hopeful, positive and grounded in solid values for a new generation to discover and fall in love with.

To expand on that?

Good Trek, like Nog’s journey, is about the betterment of all. The Federation itself isn’t a monolithic organisation. It’s kind of elective. Just because your species has joined, the individual doesn’t have to. They’re free to go off and do as they please. Likewise your species doesn’t need to be a member for you to join Starfleet and aid the Federation in its goals.

TNG really leaned into that with Worf, and DS9 explored it further, including the ongoing but never quite resolved thread of Bajor joining up.

Voyager remains a missed opportunity, especially we don’t see a great deal of character development, and what we do get is pretty hamfisted.

With DS9 neatly setting up the Maquis, to see that complement of the crew just sort of…..fall in line, was disappointing and a missed opportunity. And poor old Ensign Kim. No promotions for you, because…erm……well just because.

Redo it. Have Voyager be the only Alpha Quadrant ship to survive the abduction due to the bio-neural gel pack technology. Have Janeway broker a loose alliance, share the technology and lead a Wagon Train Back From The Stars.

I didn’t get on with Enterprise, so I’ll refrain from showing my ignorance and simply say “a prequel series wasn’t necessary at all”.

Disco? Enjoyed the first two seasons. Third showed a real glimmer of greatness when the focus wasn’t on Burnham, but it went on to poop the bed in its later episodes.

Picard? This is what I’ve been waiting for. The scene has shifted. The Federation isn’t quite the same Carey Sharey paradise it was pre-Dominion War. We’ve seen a former magnificent Statesman lose his faith in Starfleet, but still be determined to make the Galaxy a better and more peaceful place. And we’ve only had the first season, so I feel it’s too early to pass judgement. Just give Sir Patrick his head, and let him lead. Show us Picard finding his own redemption.

 Togusa wrote:

Spoiler:

DS9, TNG and VOY are my go-to series. I grew up with them and they're so well ingrained in who I am that it's easy for me to use episodes of those shows to help when I'm down, or stressed in life.

The new Star Trek stuff hasn't had the same effect. The new movies were just awful, though I held that opinion about all of the movies from the 90s/2000s as well. I've always been of the opinion that Star Trek just doesn't work in film because the core idea is to tell a story about a group of characters and you need a lot more time than two hours to do that.

Take this example from DS9:

Nog formerly requests Sisko's letter of recommendation for his application to Starfleet academy. That's in "Heart of Stone" (S3E14). But if you look at his character, and his reasons for wanting to join Starfleet, the apotheosis of that decision can be seen as early as "A Man Alone" (S1, E4) and "The Nagus" (S1, E11). But if you think about it it possibly goes even deeper as we know that Rom and Nog came to Quark's bar DURRING The Cardassian occupation of Bajor, meaning both Rom and Nog would have been witnesses to those crimes the Cardassian military committed on Terok Nor, and that possibly would have been the catalyst for Nog's eventual decision as he clearly acts more like his gentle father than his aggressive uncle.

Over the next four seasons Nog's character grows considerably both in attitude, maturity and intelligence. By the time we get to one of my favorite "two-parters" of all of Star Trek, "The Siege of AR-558" (S7E8) and its technical follow-up episode, "It's Only a Paper Moon" (S7E10), Nog's entire character has grown and changed from when we first me him into the very model of a Starfleet officer, showing how he's embraced the ideals, even when we see he still brings the best of his culture to his new collective "Treachery, Faith and the Great River" (S7E6).

None of this would have been possible in even a trilogy of films, at least not to the level of development and time put into one character, who began as a minor character at that. I mean I didn't even touch on how Nog is challenged in "Valliant" (S6E22) or "Rocks and Shoals" (S6E2), and in "In the Cards" (S5E25) where we see traces of Nogs new personality and character being explored.

But none of the new shows have even tried to do something like this, Picard has so far been bland and uninspired, where as Discovery has been a cluster chuck of just...I don't even know how to describe it. Even Enterprise (I'd argue that Enterprise is an even bigger fuckup than anything produced in the last ten years) had better flow and direction than Discovery has so far...

It just amazes me that stuff like Axanar can be so well loved by the community and so supported, yet Paramount can look at it and still claim to not know why Star Trek is a failing franchise...almost as if they're being deliberately obtuse.

It Is a real shame Picard hasn’t been able to capture that kind of breadth of character development in its sole season so far that DS9 pulled off over its seven.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

I didn’t get on with Enterprise, so I’ll refrain from showing my ignorance and simply say “a prequel series wasn’t necessary at all”.

Disco? Enjoyed the first two seasons. Third showed a real glimmer of greatness when the focus wasn’t on Burnham, but it went on to poop the bed in its later episodes.

Picard? This is what I’ve been waiting for. The scene has shifted. The Federation isn’t quite the same Carey Sharey paradise it was pre-Dominion War. We’ve seen a former magnificent Statesman lose his faith in Starfleet, but still be determined to make the Galaxy a better and more peaceful place. And we’ve only had the first season, so I feel it’s too early to pass judgement. Just give Sir Patrick his head, and let him lead. Show us Picard finding his own redemption.

When did it ever not focuss on Burnham??

Picard - it was not bad with some interesting characters but had an absolute dog of a final episode - truly awful writing from start to end.

There were a few non-Burnham centric episodes in season 3. Around the half way point.

trexmeyer wrote:
DS9 pushed the envelope far more than the recent Trek shows in all directions except for maybe LGBTQ+ issues.

it had a couple eps touching on that, like when jadzia dax met a woman one of her earlier hosts had loved. Also the mirror mirror ep where the mirror universe ezri dax made it clear she was sexually interested in the mirror universe dabo girl.

DS9 very much pushed the LGBTQ+ envelope in its day.

This is one of the things I think peeps need to keep in mind. For better or worse, we can’t fairly judge how subversive or progressive a show of yesteryear was or wasn’t by today’s standards.

The writers may have wanted to do more, but nervous studios say no. Indeed, the whole “kill your queers” trope came from “ok you can have a gay character but no lasting happiness for them, or else! originated in such restrictions.

...you know, each time I see the title, I read it as "Whiter Star Trek".

Throws me each time ^^

The Revenant wrote:

trexmeyer wrote:
DS9 pushed the envelope far more than the recent Trek shows in all directions except for maybe LGBTQ+ issues.

it had a couple eps touching on that, like when jadzia dax met a woman one of her earlier hosts had loved. Also the mirror mirror ep where the mirror universe ezri dax made it clear she was sexually interested in the mirror universe dabo girl.

My point was that DS9 had diverse casting and also addressed issues of racism, terrorism, and religion to a greater degree than any Star Trek show to come after despite being a product of the 90's.

Two days before the premiere and Paramount has pulled Discovery from all international markets:

Gizmodo Article wrote:For three seasons, most of the world has watched Star Trek: Discovery through Netflix, the streaming platform that was, outside of the U.S. at least, also home to most of Star Trek’s past as well. But in a shocking move, days before the series was set to return to the streamer for its fourth season, now those fans will have to wait—and sign up for an entirely different streaming service.

Deadline reports that ViacomCBS has paid off the lucrative deal that brought Discovery to Netflix across the world outside of the U.S. and Canada four years ago, pulling the entire show from the platform at midnight tonight. The removal also means that Discovery’s fourth season, which was expected to begin airing weekly on Netflix starting this Friday, November 19—a day after it premieres on Paramount+ in the U.S. and on CTV’s Sci-Fi Channel in Canada—will now not air in international markets for at least a few months.

I mean... that's just going out of their way to create a whole new flurry of piracy.

And this is one big downside of multiple completing streaming services. The other being that some series won't make it to DVD/Bluray release either because they are always streamed. Or if they do its a limited edition high price type deal.

It's mind-bogglingly short-sighted.

For all it's faults, I had been enjoying Disco and looking forward to Strange New Worlds, which I would assume now will also be restricted to P+.

I have zero interest in signing up for another streaming service, even if it was available now. Content producers need to pick a darn platform and use that instead of everyone and their dog releasing their own separate paid service. That or someone needs to set up a 'nexus' service that lets you pay a single subscription fee to access content from any of the streaming services.

Either way, not happy about this decision, and it will likely mean I'll miss this season completely.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
DS9 very much pushed the LGBTQ+ envelope in its day.

This is one of the things I think peeps need to keep in mind. For better or worse, we can’t fairly judge how subversive or progressive a show of yesteryear was or wasn’t by today’s standards.

The writers may have wanted to do more, but nervous studios say no. Indeed, the whole “kill your queers” trope came from “ok you can have a gay character but no lasting happiness for them, or else! originated in such restrictions.

It is interesting to me, or at least the part of me with a history degree and an eye for historical study, how Trek has operated throughout its existence.

I mean, in the 1960s, it seems that /everything/ in media and entertainment was easier to get made at the outset. . . Pitch a show about wagon train to the stars? SURE, lets see how it goes! We got a guy writing up a story about a middle eastern fairy tail, and we combine it with a standard, good looking American scientist??? Lets try it, see how people like it (I dream of Jeanie). That's not even going into the creation of entire genres of music that were going on at the time as well.

But with time, the youthful exuberance that really pushed the boundaries (a la, first interracial kiss on air, TOS) gets promoted higher up the media empire food chain. . . now they have more to lose, so they don't want to risk what they got, and they try to dampen things down a bit, not push as much. Pretty soon, everything starts looking like everything else. Remember in the 90s, when NYPD Blue came on the scene? Everyone (in over the air media) was going "this is so original and groundbreaking!!!" and within a couple years, we have a dozen NYPD Blue clones. And, on the success of TNG, we get several sci-fi themed "clones" (I put it in quotes because well, we are HERE. . . and I'd reckon there was just slightly enough differences to make them close family, rather than TV clones). And as a studio head type person, if your "original" series is competing with so many closely related shows all in the same time slots, you "need" to protect your show and that time slot, you you can't really push the way you may actually want to, because you dont want to jeopardize the safety of your running contract

Well, I didn't actually finish the third season, so it won't affect me much, but... that blows, nonetheless.

I guess I'll pirate it if I ever decide to finish it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 insaniak wrote:
It's mind-bogglingly short-sighted.

For all it's faults, I had been enjoying Disco and looking forward to Strange New Worlds, which I would assume now will also be restricted to P+.

I have zero interest in signing up for another streaming service, even if it was available now. Content producers need to pick a darn platform and use that instead of everyone and their dog releasing their own separate paid service. That or someone needs to set up a 'nexus' service that lets you pay a single subscription fee to access content from any of the streaming services.

Either way, not happy about this decision, and it will likely mean I'll miss this season completely.

The more streaming services there are, the more I'm deciding to just unsubscribe everything.

Who would have seen that coming, right?

What a twist: people is willing to pay for good service, but not when you're trying to squeeze blood out of rocks. Who knew.

I watched part of the first series when it premiered on Channel 4 in the UK, but never got round to finishing it (didn’t have Netflix at the time). I now do have Netflix and it was on my “I’ll get round to that at some point” list. Guess now I…won’t.

This proliferation of streaming services is getting to be ridiculous.

So apparently the new Chip n Dale series is going to do a Roger Rabbit cartoons living with people type setting, and one of the major threat plots they’re dealing with is video piracy.

 AduroT wrote:
So apparently the new Chip n Dale series is going to do a Roger Rabbit cartoons living with people type setting, and one of the major threat plots they’re dealing with is video piracy.

...right. It smells to me like "corpo empty suit's pet project".

 Albertorius wrote:
Who would have seen that coming, right?

What a twist: people is willing to pay for good service, but not when you're trying to squeeze blood out of rocks. Who knew.

Um, everyone who wasn't a plutocrat?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Two days before the premiere and Paramount has pulled Discovery from all international markets:

Gizmodo Article wrote:For three seasons, most of the world has watched Star Trek: Discovery through Netflix, the streaming platform that was, outside of the U.S. at least, also home to most of Star Trek’s past as well. But in a shocking move, days before the series was set to return to the streamer for its fourth season, now those fans will have to wait—and sign up for an entirely different streaming service.

Deadline reports that ViacomCBS has paid off the lucrative deal that brought Discovery to Netflix across the world outside of the U.S. and Canada four years ago, pulling the entire show from the platform at midnight tonight. The removal also means that Discovery’s fourth season, which was expected to begin airing weekly on Netflix starting this Friday, November 19—a day after it premieres on Paramount+ in the U.S. and on CTV’s Sci-Fi Channel in Canada—will now not air in international markets for at least a few months.

I mean... that's just going out of their way to create a whole new flurry of piracy.

Hopefully it just kills of the whole show.

The Revenant wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:
Who would have seen that coming, right?

What a twist: people is willing to pay for good service, but not when you're trying to squeeze blood out of rocks. Who knew.

Um, everyone who wasn't a plutocrat?

Yep. That is the joke :p


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Two days before the premiere and Paramount has pulled Discovery from all international markets:

Gizmodo Article wrote:For three seasons, most of the world has watched Star Trek: Discovery through Netflix, the streaming platform that was, outside of the U.S. at least, also home to most of Star Trek’s past as well. But in a shocking move, days before the series was set to return to the streamer for its fourth season, now those fans will have to wait—and sign up for an entirely different streaming service.

Deadline reports that ViacomCBS has paid off the lucrative deal that brought Discovery to Netflix across the world outside of the U.S. and Canada four years ago, pulling the entire show from the platform at midnight tonight. The removal also means that Discovery’s fourth season, which was expected to begin airing weekly on Netflix starting this Friday, November 19—a day after it premieres on Paramount+ in the U.S. and on CTV’s Sci-Fi Channel in Canada—will now not air in international markets for at least a few months.

I mean... that's just going out of their way to create a whole new flurry of piracy.

Hopefully it just kills of the whole show.

We can not like a show and still be classy enough to let other people enjoy it, please? I got bored of it mid second season, IIRC, but that doesn't mean I want the people who like it to lose it.

And you know this is the beginning, right? There's Picard, Strange New Worlds and Lower Decks, too, and if you really expect those not to have the same treatment, well...

Anyways, that communicate is basically a huge "go feth yourseves, suckers!" sign, particularly two days before the start of the new season.

Execs are just amazing at murdering the golden egg laying geese, aren't they?

Yeah, I'm sure I'll subscribe to...paramount plus. Yeah. Right after I subscribe to the ten other streaming services that have 20 movies each and two series high-profile enough to remember their title.

We're going to hit the point of diminishing returns in a year or two and then the small ones will close down quietly in two years more when they fail to bring the expected profits because what sane person will subscribe to ParamountPlus vs Didney or Netflix?

The worst thing will be when some close down but retain long term rights to the shows that they had; locking those shows out of moving to other streaming services and potentially killing them off at worst; or for those that are completed, killing future sales and opportunities to watch them.


The other option is someone will come up with a single catch-all subscription for a whole bunch of them under one umbrella. So I could well see Amazon Prime buying up access to multiple channels that way (heck it already has multiple optional paid extra ones

Back when Netflix used to mail disks, I started collecting movies and shows we knew we would want to watch in DVD format. When Netflix started streaming, my friends gave me a bit of a hard time about keeping so much physical media on hand. Now that streaming has become a hot mess—a show we are in the middle of enjoying is leaving Netflix in December—my friends have changed their tune.

I have nothing like the collection of DVD/Bluray that I want but yeah I'm much the same.

I weaken on video games (because so many of them now even if they have a physical release are little more than a download code for the steam store and wouldn't even work without the steam store running); but for films, TV shows and music I much much prefer to own physical media.

 Albertorius wrote:
Well, I didn't actually finish the third season, so it won't affect me much, but... that blows, nonetheless.

SPOILER ALERT: Michael solved everything perfectly and the Admiral admitted that he should have just done everything her way from the beginning then promoted her to Captain of the Discovery over Saru.

I am not making that up. It sounds like I am, but I'm not.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Back when Netflix used to mail disks, I started collecting movies and shows we knew we would want to watch in DVD format. When Netflix started streaming, my friends gave me a bit of a hard time about keeping so much physical media on hand. Now that streaming has become a hot mess—a show we are in the middle of enjoying is leaving Netflix in December—my friends have changed their tune.

I still buy physical media. Anything on these streaming services could vanish tomorrow, including the entire service itself, taking with it everything we watch. As long as my Blu-Ray player keeps working though, my stuff will remain.