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**Albertorius**

Nurglitch wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Nurglitch wrote:
Making a Carnifex harder to kill and more killy isn't going to change that fielding one is going to be boring.
The Carnifex being worth taking sure sounds less boring to me.

Nurglitch wrote:
Either it's going to charge at the enemy shooting or charge at the enemy and try to kill it...
Is... is that an actual argument? Everything does either of those. Or both.

Nurglitch wrote:
... and that it does both badly isn't a huge issue.
No. It is a big issue. It's unit that doesn't perform very well, isn't very durable, and sucks at what it's meant to do. It's also an iconic Tyranid unit. It being bad at everything is a big issue.

Yes, it is an actual argument that a Carnifex that only does the generic things allowed by the basic rules is boring. Tyranids, when they finally became a coherent army in 2nd edition (and Epic Space Marine), were notable by really shaking things up with special rules. It's not really an issue that the Carnifex is currently a bad conventional unit, but an issue that it is a conventional unit doing conventional boring things. It should be doing interesting Tyranid things that disrupts a conventional army's game play loop. I like the Without Number rules from 7th precisely because they discouraged picking off units one by one in the traditional Warhammer concentration of fire; you wanted to spread your firepower around to slow and weaken the Tyranids rather than eliminating them and returning them to the board in perfect condition.

If you're hung up on going to go the conventional route, maybe wildly underprice them, so you can get 2-3 for the price of a conventional box on legs? You know, so they match the 'quantity has a quality all its own' of the Tyranid ethos?

When everything is special, nothing is special anymore, which is kind of the situation we're in, currently, with all the bespoke rules for everything.

Make a game that fething works for everything (or as much as popssible at least), first, and then add some special rules to some stuff to sprinkle up. The current paradigm is stupid.

As to the carnifex, just making it so that It. Just. Can't. fething. Die. would make it a lot better, as long as it was able to actually shoot or fight decently enough for what it is.

**Nurglitch**

Albertorius wrote:
Nurglitch wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Nurglitch wrote:
Making a Carnifex harder to kill and more killy isn't going to change that fielding one is going to be boring.
The Carnifex being worth taking sure sounds less boring to me.

Nurglitch wrote:
Either it's going to charge at the enemy shooting or charge at the enemy and try to kill it...
Is... is that an actual argument? Everything does either of those. Or both.

Nurglitch wrote:
... and that it does both badly isn't a huge issue.
No. It is a big issue. It's unit that doesn't perform very well, isn't very durable, and sucks at what it's meant to do. It's also an iconic Tyranid unit. It being bad at everything is a big issue.

Yes, it is an actual argument that a Carnifex that only does the generic things allowed by the basic rules is boring. Tyranids, when they finally became a coherent army in 2nd edition (and Epic Space Marine), were notable by really shaking things up with special rules. It's not really an issue that the Carnifex is currently a bad conventional unit, but an issue that it is a conventional unit doing conventional boring things. It should be doing interesting Tyranid things that disrupts a conventional army's game play loop. I like the Without Number rules from 7th precisely because they discouraged picking off units one by one in the traditional Warhammer concentration of fire; you wanted to spread your firepower around to slow and weaken the Tyranids rather than eliminating them and returning them to the board in perfect condition.

If you're hung up on going to go the conventional route, maybe wildly underprice them, so you can get 2-3 for the price of a conventional box on legs? You know, so they match the 'quantity has a quality all its own' of the Tyranid ethos?

When everything is special, nothing is special anymore, which is kind of the situation we're in, currently, with all the bespoke rules for everything.

Make a game that fething works for everything (or as much as popssible at least), first, and then add some special rules to some stuff to sprinkle up. The current paradigm is stupid.

As to the carnifex, just making it so that It. Just. Can't. fething. Die. would make it a lot better, as long as it was able to actually shoot or fight decently enough for what it is.

Yes, well, it's hard to revert to a structure in which each army has its own take on a set of core rules when the train left that building years ago. Having everything being special in its own way is tricky when there's so many factions and differences to represent, let alone sub-factions, etc. Giving the Carnifex a rule like Guilliman or Saint Celestine seems like the easiest way to do it, and plays into the notion of Old One Eye as an uber-fex (getting a better regenerate roll or something). It might work out if, every turn, you need to spend time putting down the Carnifexes before blowing the rest of the army off the table.

**LunarSol**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think people don’t appreciate just how bloody terrifying Carnifexes were in the past.

Particularly in 2nd Ed, they were absolute sods to deal with.

Carnifexes are kind of the ultimate example to me of the limitations of stat based rules. They are either too efficient and terrifying or just another stat block to replace with whatever is numerically more efficient. They need to do something cool and iconic to do, not just be a generic beater.

**stonehorse**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think people don’t appreciate just how bloody terrifying Carnifexes were in the past.

Particularly in 2nd Ed, they were absolute sods to deal with.

This, a thousand times this.

I remember those days, using bio-morphs to increase the Toughness to 9. Lascanons needing a 4+ to wound was hilarious, well for me as a Tyranids player, not so much for the opponent I imagine.

Their Crush Attack was also fantastic, one big giant hug... of death!

**Blackie**

People can't compare current carnifexes with 2nd edition carnifexes. Back then they were the centrepiece models of the army, with the current standards they're just a regular unit. Hence they can't really be terrifying on their own like they used to be.

Unfortunately the scale of the game changed drastically. A carnifex should definitely be improved because the current one sucks, but it's more like a tyranid regular dread now, nothing more.

**Albertorius**

Blackie wrote:
People can't compare current carnifexes with 2nd edition carnifexes. Back then they were the centrepiece models of the army, with the current standards they're just a regular unit. Hence they can't really be terrifying on their own like they used to be.

Unfortunately the scale of the game changed drastically. A carnifex should definitely be improved because the current one sucks, but it's more like a tyranid regular dread now, nothing more.

Well, that is sort of true... but somehow, a tank is still a tank.

**H.B.M.C.**

Blackie wrote:
People can't compare current carnifexes with 2nd edition carnifexes. Back then they were the centrepiece models of the army, with the current standards they're just a regular unit. Hence they can't really be terrifying on their own like they used to be.

Boy that sure sounds like moving the goalposts...

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Whilst they’re no longer the centrepiece, they’re still far far wussier than they should be.

And yes, by extension the other Big Gribblies need to be tougher and fightier.

**Blackie**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Blackie wrote:
People can't compare current carnifexes with 2nd edition carnifexes. Back then they were the centrepiece models of the army, with the current standards they're just a regular unit. Hence they can't really be terrifying on their own like they used to be.
Boy that sure sounds like moving the goalposts...

Why? I said they should be buffed. And I'd love them to be buffed, they're great models.

But I don't agree with the comparison with 2nd carnifexes, when they were a massive threat on their own. Several units of the same scale were extremely good back then, and now just supportive units. I don't understand why carnifexes should be any different now. They are the same scale of a regular dreadnought or even an ork buggy, they can even be squadroned as well. They really are nothing more.

Also, how many points should a carnifex cost? They're 100ish points models, that can also be squadroned, and should act like 100ish points models.

**Albertorius**

Blackie wrote:
But I don't agree with the comparison with 2nd carnifexes, when they were a massive threat on their own. Several units of the same scale were extremely good back then, and now just supportive units. I don't understand why carnifexes should be any different now. They are the same scale of a regular dreadnought or even an ork buggy, they can even be squadroned as well. They really are nothing more.

They never were "on the same scale" with dreadnoughts and even less so with buggies. They were the Tyranid tank-equivalent.

And tanks can also be squadroned, so...

But going with the dreadnought equivalent, how are currently carnifexes when compared with astartes dreadnoughts, especially the primaris ones?

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Thing is, their background hasn’t changed. They’re still described as living wrecking balls, and near unstoppable without dedicated anti-tank firepower.

That they’re less survivable than a Rhino APC is just daft. Like, completely daft.

These are living engines of destruction, described as being able to charge through the walls of bunkers, and flip tanks by ramming them.

Whilst it’s not necessarily realistic to bring them back to 2nd Ed stats, if I set them out it might help.

First, they were strong. It’s been years since I read the Codex, but I think they may have been strength 10?

Toughness 8 with a lot of wounds, and crucially a 3+ save on 2D6.

Many small arms couldn’t even wound them, and when they could, the armour save basically negated most of it. If you got locked in combat with one, you’d seriously struggle. Enemy Dreadnoughts in particular had a rough time, as the Carnifex would just rip bits and bobs off them.

**Albertorius**

For reference, let's all remember that you could blow a Rhino up with a single lucky bolter shot, whereas the carnie was basically immune to small arms fire.

**H.B.M.C.**

I'm one of those people who's fine with the paradigm of Tyranids never having a native 2+ save on their units...

... except the Carnifex. Which should have one.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

I’m broadly ok with them not having a whole lot of attacks. But a brood should be something you can stick down one flank and be a serious cause for concern for your opponent. Not necessarily unstoppable, but something they can’t ignore or just deal with in a half arsed way.

As ever I’m super ignorant of the current rules, but I reckon some kind charge related Mortal Wounds feels in order. Give them a literal impact.

**BorderCountess**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m broadly ok with them not having a whole lot of attacks. But a brood should be something you can stick down one flank and be a serious cause for concern for your opponent. Not necessarily unstoppable, but something they can’t ignore or just deal with in a half arsed way.

As ever I’m super ignorant of the current rules, but I reckon some kind charge related Mortal Wounds feels in order. Give them a literal impact.

They already do: after finishing a charge, on 4+, one enemy unit within 1" suffers a mortal wound. Feels like that can be increased a bit...

Also, what about moving them to Elite? Right now, they're competing with so many other units for Heavy slots. Make them Elite and watch them flood the field, while the enemy has to really decide what to shoot at.

**dan2026**

The Carnifex should have a 2+ save and reduce incoming damage by 1.
They should be as tough and durable as a Dreadnought.

**pgmason**

Pretty sure I remember 2nd edition carnifexes regenerating lost wounds every turn as well (even from 0, so you had to potentially kill them twice).

While we're at it Genestealers used to be WS7 with 4 attacks. I think there's a fair argument for making them WS2+.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

I think that was a Biomorph card?

Man I need to get building my 2nd Ed library!

**gungo**

dan2026 wrote:
The Carnifex should have a 2+ save and reduce incoming damage by 1.
They should be as tough and durable as a Dreadnought.

I mean people already think the dreadnought got skipped in the last balance adjustment…. Sooo

**Nurglitch**

Maybe giving them 10 attacks each or something.

**Albertorius**

gungo wrote:
dan2026 wrote:
The Carnifex should have a 2+ save and reduce incoming damage by 1.
They should be as tough and durable as a Dreadnought.

I mean people already think the dreadnought got skipped in the last balance adjustment…. Sooo

...as in "it's too powerful and need to be reined in" or as in "this gak needs to be better"?

**H.B.M.C.**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I think that was a Biomorph card?

Biomorphs didn't have cards, just points values.

Regeneration was 10 points per wound, so on a 'Fex it was 100 points. Quite worth it.

**Jidmah**

Albertorius wrote:
But going with the dreadnought equivalent, how are currently carnifexes when compared with astartes dreadnoughts, especially the primaris ones?

IMO the redemptor dreadnought (that's the primaris one) is about as durable as a carnifex should be. However, I wonder if nid playes would be happy with ~175 point carnifexes.

**Blackie**

I'd certainly prefer a 175ppm good unit instead of a 100ppm worthless one.

I don't belong to the same crowd of people that desire to spam and max out their favorite unit though. One carnifex or two should be ok as a legit option, not necessarily 3-6 of them.

**Jidmah**

I'm not a nid player, but many of my regular opponents used to be. Nowadays, a warboss tears one apart with next to no effort. It just feels wrong. I still remember the times where I threw a warboss and two units of orks at a carnifex and it took out almost all of them before going down. That's how they should feel in my opinion.

However, I can see people who own 9 carnifexes being unhappy when they are suddenly told to shelf more than half of them.

**H.B.M.C.**

I own 20 of the damned things. I just want them to be better than Rhinos.

**Blackie**

Jidmah wrote:
I'm not a nid player, but many of my regular opponents used to be. Nowadays, a warboss tears one apart with next to no effort. It just feels wrong. I still remember the times where I threw a warboss and two units of orks at a carnifex and it took out almost all of them before going down. That's how they should feel in my opinion.

However, I can see people who own 9 carnifexes being unhappy when they are suddenly told to shelf more than half of them.

Of course, but you can't have a unit that takes down a warboss and two units of boyz for just 100 points, that'd be OP. During those times tyrands players fielded one of two carnifexes, three at most.

If you want to bring 9, and defend GW's choice to let players bring 9 at standard sized games for less than half budget, you have to accept that they are just "regular" dudes then.

**H.B.M.C.**

False dilemmas abound.

Pretty sure Jid already covered the points side of thing. And obviously it wouldn't be 9 per army if they were suddenly very, very good units. Why is that even a question?

And back when 'Fexes were good (as they'd just got a new model and Nidzilla was the order of the day), most people brought the max amount, which was 6. That's probably more reasonable than 9.

**Blackie**

9 or 6 doesn't really matter. GW nerfed lists that brought more than 3 scrapjets and/more than 3 squigbuggies.

Jidmah made a very good point when it compared it to the primaris dread. Carnifexes in order to be good to the level people want them to be good they need a massive points hike.

You get a regular unit for reasonably cheap or a very good one for an expensive price, like 175-200 points. Either one of those options, not a super scary heavy hitter for 100 points.

At the moment they're bland and cheap, there are two options to buff them. They can be a bit less bland for the same points but still quite bland overall, or they can be really threatening but for a much higher price. Or something in the middle, maybe with a cap on the max models people can take. Even before the patch other units have been capped with 9th codexes, mek gunz for example have been halved from 18 to 9 max. Captains and their equivalents have been limited to max 1 per detachment, etc...

**Dysartes**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
I own 20 of the damned things. I just want them to be better than Rhinos.

They're at least better than Rhinos in close combat, aren't they?

...aren't they?