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 alextroy wrote:
I would think it was a reaction to the time necessary to roll all the attacks for differing weapon types within the unit. They want you to take multiple different weapons in the unit, but the rules encouraged you not do that. This sounds like a change that simplifies rolling your attacks (same WS, S, AP, and Dmg means you can fast roll the entire unit) while still giving some difference to the weapons, even if only sometimes via Stratagem.

I disliked the idea at first, but that's actually a pretty decent argument!

 Crimson wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
I would think it was a reaction to the time necessary to roll all the attacks for differing weapon types within the unit. They want you to take multiple different weapons in the unit, but the rules encouraged you not do that. This sounds like a change that simplifies rolling your attacks (same WS, S, AP, and Dmg means you can fast roll the entire unit) while still giving some difference to the weapons, even if only sometimes via Stratagem.

I disliked the idea at first, but that's actually a pretty decent argument!

Still that'd be a pretty big sacrifice for the sake of streamlining a pretty small part of a game. I mean, comparatively, how much time is gained when you have to make maximum 3-4 less groups of rolls in a game ? And why use a system like stratagems who are already numerous and use a very precious and limited resource ?

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
I would think it was a reaction to the time necessary to roll all the attacks for differing weapon types within the unit. They want you to take multiple different weapons in the unit, but the rules encouraged you not do that. This sounds like a change that simplifies rolling your attacks (same WS, S, AP, and Dmg means you can fast roll the entire unit) while still giving some difference to the weapons, even if only sometimes via Stratagem.

I disliked the idea at first, but that's actually a pretty decent argument!

Still that'd be a pretty big sacrifice for the sake of streamlining a pretty small part of a game. I mean, comparatively, how much time is gained when you have to make maximum 3-4 less groups of rolls in a game ? And why use a system like stratagems who are already numerous and use a very precious and limited resource ?

Yeah, that's a weird solution to a minor issue, especially since variations of the kiss weren't needed in the first place.
Strats for specific weapon variants in a single specific unit is the worst kind of unnecessary bloat.

 alextroy wrote:
I would think it was a reaction to the time necessary to roll all the attacks for differing weapon types within the unit. They want you to take multiple different weapons in the unit, but the rules encouraged you not do that. This sounds like a change that simplifies rolling your attacks (same WS, S, AP, and Dmg means you can fast roll the entire unit) while still giving some difference to the weapons, even if only sometimes via Stratagem.

Which makes sense on units that are large an ubiquitous. Harlies are neither.

How many melee weapons can a vanguard veteran squad carry (pretty much every melee weapon marines can take)? Or a Terminator squad (sword, fist, chainfist)?.


Seems pretty poor imo.

I have Harlequins and actually hope this is how the rule works. It's annoying to build different weapons for them to always change from edition to edition. Everybody was just using caresses anyway. I don't think any of my regular opponents could tell the difference between the looks of each type.
I'm totally fine with a singular stat for the melee weapons on regular players. Perhaps the strats will have a multi-damage one (to represent kisses?) as well as the ignore invulns rumoured.

I am curious to see how mono harlies will play if they're now rolled into the eldar book.

Nah I think it'll be perfectly fine that the signature and most iconic Harli weapon - the Harlequin's Kiss - will be something one model can use once per turn now, and only via the expenditure of an abstracted strategic resource. Nothing wrong with that.

In fact, why don't we do that with all special weapons? Rather than having "Plasma Guns" or "Flamers" or "Lascannons", we'll make everything a strat. Want to take out that tank this turn? Use your "Meltagun" strat. Need to kill two tanks this turn with Meltaguns? TOO BAD!

Every Harlequinplayer I know magnetized the weapons, sucks I guess
If GW cared about time needed to roll different weapon profiles we wouldn't have gotten abominations like the Plague Marines datasheet that forces you to mix.

Andykp wrote:

 ImAGeek wrote:

 GaroRobe wrote:

Andykp wrote:
I thought all the kits would be getting helmet off options for the ynnari.

That's my assumption as well. Im guessing enough heads for a fully helmeted squad, but a few bare heads for ynnari fans

If it’s like the Howling Banshees kit, there’ll be enough heads to do a full squad with either.

That’s what I figured would happen as well, but that would mean maybe 30 heads in the guardian box, 10 helmet, 10 helmet with plume, 10 bare heads. Seems a lot.

Oh I didn’t mean the Guardians, just the Aspect Warrior kits.

 bullyboy wrote:
I have Harlequins and actually hope this is how the rule works. It's annoying to build different weapons for them to always change from edition to edition. Everybody was just using caresses anyway. I don't think any of my regular opponents could tell the difference between the looks of each type.
I'm totally fine with a singular stat for the melee weapons on regular players. Perhaps the strats will have a multi-damage one (to represent kisses?) as well as the ignore invulns rumoured.

I am curious to see how mono harlies will play if they're now rolled into the eldar book.

I don't personally own Harlies. But my older brother collects and paints them (more then he plays them). And if it's true most of the time I had trouble telling them apart what bothers me more is that it restricts each weapons "specialities" to only one unit, once per turn.
Kind of takes away the whole point of the hobby no ? To individually outfit each of your units as you model, paint and play with your dudes. It's kind of sad that they'd go with a "Heh, whatever it just looks the same anyway."

Hmm, the more that leaks, the less likely it seems that we're going to get any further models. Like, yeah, we know the Avatar is coming, but I'm getting doubtful for Dark Reapers, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, or any other phoenix lords...

drbored wrote:
Hmm, the more that leaks, the less likely it seems that we're going to get any further models. Like, yeah, we know the Avatar is coming, but I'm getting doubtful for Dark Reapers, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, or any other phoenix lords...

I hope they follow the Jain Zar and Banshee unit template of both The Phoenix Lord and his aspect warrior unit being released at the same time. So hopefully with Maugan Ra coming so will new Reapers...but who knows?

As others have said this smacks of a two wave release...there is just so much that needs updating. Even then I am not sure that everything that needs it will be updated.

drbored wrote:
Hmm, the more that leaks, the less likely it seems that we're going to get any further models. Like, yeah, we know the Avatar is coming, but I'm getting doubtful for Dark Reapers, Swooping Hawks, Warp Spiders, or any other phoenix lords...

So far we have 8 confirmed kits. Guardians, rangers, shroud runners, autarch, avatar, warlock, shining spears, maugan Ra. The Ork update had 12 kits. Lumineth had 11, soul blight had 12 not counting cursed city. 8 is on the smaller end of a range refresh. Another 4 kits in this wave is entirely possible. Hopefully tonight's reveal is not shining spears.

Andykp wrote:
I thought all the kits would be getting helmet off options for the ynnari.

Ynnari do not wear helmets???

General Hobbs wrote:

Andykp wrote:
I thought all the kits would be getting helmet off options for the ynnari.

Ynnari do not wear helmets???

I guess it's more of a way to distinguish them than anything else, really... but only for regular eldars, I guess, because dark eldars don't seem to have any difference.

 Albertorius wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:

Andykp wrote:
I thought all the kits would be getting helmet off options for the ynnari.

Ynnari do not wear helmets???

I guess it's more of a way to distinguish them than anything else, really... but only for regular eldars, I guess, because dark eldars don't seem to have any difference.

Incubi come with helmetless options for Ynnari versions, too.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:

Andykp wrote:
I thought all the kits would be getting helmet off options for the ynnari.

Ynnari do not wear helmets???

I guess it's more of a way to distinguish them than anything else, really... but only for regular eldars, I guess, because dark eldars don't seem to have any difference.

Incubi come with helmetless options for Ynnari versions, too.

True. As for the rest, there's already helmetless plastic heads out there by the wazoo, and all are compatible IIRC.

Chikout wrote:
So far we have 8 confirmed kits. Guardians, rangers, shroud runners, autarch, avatar, warlock, shining spears, maugan Ra. The Ork update had 12 kits. Lumineth had 11, soul blight had 12 not counting cursed city. 8 is on the smaller end of a range refresh. Another 4 kits in this wave is entirely possible. Hopefully tonight's reveal is not shining spears.

The Warlock model might not be part of the initial release, but might come with Kill Team later to go with the rumoured Corsairs. Also still unclear if the Warlock is a single new model or comes in box of multiples like Exalted Sorcerers do.

The Advent calender rumours seem pretty accurate so far and also list Baharroth, Swooping Hawks and Warp Spiders, so hopefully we'll also see those this release. That would just leave Striking Scorpions, Fire Dragons, Dark Reapers and a whole host of characters as finecast models. Although I would expect Dark Reapers to be released alongside Maugan Ra, so maybe they're also coming now (or Maugan Ra is coming later?).

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Nah I think it'll be perfectly fine that the signature and most iconic Harli weapon - the Harlequin's Kiss - will be something one model can use once per turn now, and only via the expenditure of an abstracted strategic resource. Nothing wrong with that.

In fact, why don't we do that with all special weapons? Rather than having "Plasma Guns" or "Flamers" or "Lascannons", we'll make everything a strat. Want to take out that tank this turn? Use your "Meltagun" strat. Need to kill two tanks this turn with Meltaguns? TOO BAD!

Not to worry. The next act in this circus sees the rule designers realize that this move was far too limiting and they'll allow for some stratagems to be used multiple time. The exact number of uses and which stratagems are to get this rule will be a completely arbitrary decision.

 Redemption wrote:

Chikout wrote:
So far we have 8 confirmed kits. Guardians, rangers, shroud runners, autarch, avatar, warlock, shining spears, maugan Ra. The Ork update had 12 kits. Lumineth had 11, soul blight had 12 not counting cursed city. 8 is on the smaller end of a range refresh. Another 4 kits in this wave is entirely possible. Hopefully tonight's reveal is not shining spears.

The Warlock model might not be part of the initial release, but might come with Kill Team later to go with the rumoured Corsairs. Also still unclear if the Warlock is a single new model or comes in box of multiples like Exalted Sorcerers do.

The Advent calender rumours seem pretty accurate so far and also list Baharroth, Swooping Hawks and Warp Spiders, so hopefully we'll also see those this release. That would just leave Striking Scorpions, Fire Dragons, Dark Reapers and a whole host of characters as finecast models. Although I would expect Dark Reapers to be released alongside Maugan Ra, so maybe they're also coming now (or Maugan Ra is coming later?).

Would be such a GW move to release Ra, but not new Reapers :(

Well they are already showing off new Rangers without updating the Ranger hero.

 Overread wrote:
Well they are already showing off new Rangers without updating the Ranger hero.

So far.

And we’ve seen both Incubi and Banshees updated along with their special character versions.

Illic is not really comparable to the Pheonix lords in terms of the age of sculpt though.

You'd hope all the Pheonix Lords get done before he's looked at.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Well they are already showing off new Rangers without updating the Ranger hero.

So far.

And we’ve seen both Incubi and Banshees updated along with their special character versions.

What about that other named ranger? What’s her name from BSF? Already in plastic.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:
Every Harlequinplayer I know magnetized the weapons, sucks I guess
If GW cared about time needed to roll different weapon profiles we wouldn't have gotten abominations like the Plague Marines datasheet that forces you to mix.

Or maybe, just maybe, GW learned something from that debacle?

 Nevelon wrote:

What about that other named ranger? What’s her name from BSF? Already in plastic.

Not generally available, because she's on the shared sprues from BSF.

AlexTroy wrote:Or maybe, just maybe, GW learned something from that debacle?

They really don't seem to have, if the AdMech book was anything to go from.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Vorian wrote:
Illic is not really comparable to the Pheonix lords in terms of the age of sculpt though.

You'd hope all the Pheonix Lords get done before he's looked at.

Illic isn't all that old but if Rangers were being redone one would hope they might have considered tossing the parts into the boxed set or something.

 streetsamurai wrote:

 Redemption wrote:

Chikout wrote:
So far we have 8 confirmed kits. Guardians, rangers, shroud runners, autarch, avatar, warlock, shining spears, maugan Ra. The Ork update had 12 kits. Lumineth had 11, soul blight had 12 not counting cursed city. 8 is on the smaller end of a range refresh. Another 4 kits in this wave is entirely possible. Hopefully tonight's reveal is not shining spears.

The Warlock model might not be part of the initial release, but might come with Kill Team later to go with the rumoured Corsairs. Also still unclear if the Warlock is a single new model or comes in box of multiples like Exalted Sorcerers do.

The Advent calender rumours seem pretty accurate so far and also list Baharroth, Swooping Hawks and Warp Spiders, so hopefully we'll also see those this release. That would just leave Striking Scorpions, Fire Dragons, Dark Reapers and a whole host of characters as finecast models. Although I would expect Dark Reapers to be released alongside Maugan Ra, so maybe they're also coming now (or Maugan Ra is coming later?).

Would be such a GW move to release Ra, but not new Reapers :(

Maugan Ra and Dark Reapers are noticeably missing from the Advent rumours - although he did state it wasn't necessarily a complete list - so it's very possible he might just not be included in the initial release but released later on. As we know Maugan Ra is coming from the GW preview video, it could just be an early preview.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Vorian wrote:
Illic is not really comparable to the Pheonix lords in terms of the age of sculpt though.

You'd hope all the Pheonix Lords get done before he's looked at.

Illic isn't all that old but if Rangers were being redone one would hope they might have considered tossing the parts into the boxed set or something.

Besides being a much newer sculpt, Illic is also specific for Alaitoc so not generic for all Craftworlds like the Phoenix Lords are. I definitely wouldn't put them in the same category.

Worth noting that the Beast Snagga boxed set came with a codex that had pictures of the old Kommandos in it rather than the new.

Nice to see another Phoenix Lord, but do the Aspects themselves actually need redoing? Spiders and Spears yes, but the others have actually ages pretty well IMO, just the fact that they're Finecast.

 Valkyrie wrote:
Nice to see another Phoenix Lord, but do the Aspects themselves actually need redoing? Spiders and Spears yes, but the others have actually ages pretty well IMO, just the fact that they're Finecast.

And that's a huge issue - Finecast is just not a good material for GW and casting. The number of fails is typically high (even now) compared ot other casting forms. A large portion of customers avoid finecast and also discourage others from buying into it. So yes I'd argue that the finecast models need replacing, especially as they aren't unique characters, but one of the core focal points for the army. Craftworld should be all about their aspects, they are the flare and the fancy that fill the army alongside the regular infantry of guardians and the like. So yes they should be updated and made modern with plastic as they are one of the big draws to the army.