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GW developed the game, setting and aesthetic. They put out the models. Then 3rd parties come along and make their take.
Kind of one of the reasons why all the designers I mentioned up there save one don't do GW proxies, but rather their own thing, was to show that it's really not the case
As already stated, yes, because it hearken back to the attitude of "All recasters are low quality!", which was never true, only it shifts it to the apparent "talentless losers" who make models for 3D printing, also not true.
l0k1 wrote:Warp Spooders sound fun and annoying, but man I don't want to pick up any more finecrap lol
Artel W makes some very nice not warp spiders.
bullyboy wrote:Well that article on Phoenix Lords was absolutely worthless. Also, going to be a shame to have good rules for resin kits I have absolutely zero desire to buy.
Not totally worthless. It points to why Dire Avengers are moving to elite. It's so Asurmen can give them obsec.
I've been considering Artel W for the Warp Spiders and Fire Dragons for a long time now. Since they're not getting the plastic treatment I may finally pull the trigger. I was really hoping GW would do plastic Swooping Hawks this batch too.
The movement shenanigans with Warp Spiders look pretty fun, it's nice having an anti-charge unit. The only other ones that spring to mind are the Grav tanks that can give -2" to enemy charges and free disengage with a Stratagem. And of course Custodes can use tanglefoot grenades.
A bit late and I've only got the Artel W Warp Spiders, but they are really incredible miniatures. Easily the best resin miniatures I have ever put together.....no flash or mould lines, really crisp and go together super easily. They are far superior to any FW or other resin miniature I have ever owned. At first I was a bit bummed GW wasn't putting out new Warp Spiders, but after getting my hands on these I have a hard time believing they could make better miniatures. I would very highly recommend picking up some if you like the look and want to use the unit.
Really great praise for the Artel W Warp Spiders. I've been split between them and the Wargame Exclusive Warp Spiders which have a really unique design for the Exarch
Really great praise for the Artel W Warp Spiders. I've been split between them and the Wargame Exclusive Warp Spiders which have a really unique design for the Exarch
I have the wargame exclusive ones. When I bought them the choice was between them and the ones from Ghost. The WE casts are not as good as what Artel W produces. It's not a huge difference in quality, but it's noticeable. The WE models will have visible print lines, for example. Not sure if they will show up after painting though. Another difference is that the Artel models come in more parts. The WE models are generally one complete body with the arms, gun support and power cable separate. The exarch is one piece body, 4 separate blades for the back, 2 pieces of tabard, and two arms with guns.
Seems like this thread devolved into a polarizing debate about 3D printing that had NOTHING to do with rules or models that GW will soon be releasing for Craftworld Eldar.
Sure would be nice to see more about what this thread is for.
I'm spitting they're asking for 350.00 NZD for Eldritch Omens. I. Knew it'd be expensive but not that much. As an Eldar player I'm not that desperate no way GW. Maybe. Maayybbee if it's decently discounted on Mighty Ape I might consider buying it. But if not, nope. No way.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/12 03:36:19
"The best way to lie is to tell the truth." Attelus Kaltos.
My story! Secret War
After his organisation is hired to hunt down an influential gang leader on the Hive world, Omnartus. Attelus Kaltos is embroiled deeper into the complex world of the Assassin. This is the job which will change him, for better or for worse. Forevermore. Chapter 1.
The Angaran Chronicles: Hamar Noir. After coming back from a dangerous mission which left his friend and partner, the werewolf: Emilia in a coma. Anargrin is sent on another mission: to hunt down a rogue vampire. A rogue vampire with no consistent modus operandi and who is exceedingly good at hiding its tracks. So much so even the veteran Anargrin is forced into desperate speculation. But worst of all: drive him into desperate measures. Measures which drives Anargrin to wonder; does the ends, justify the means?
By cribbing from Heinlein, Herbert, Moorcock, Lucas, Tolkein and all the others. Remember Obi Wan in RT?
What's funny here is that Moorcock, Lucas and Tolkien all did the same thing with their works. Took from other sources and adapted it into another form and mass marketed it out to people. Herbert too come to think about it.
.Only a fool believes there is such a thing as price gouging. Things have value determined by the creator or merchant. If you don't agree with that value, you are free not to purchase.
I guess no new leaks and people don’t have the discipline not to go off topic.
We must surely only be days away from some random influencer flipping through the entire book piracy-enablingly slowly on YouTube now though… I’m sure it’ll heat up again then.
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
Really great praise for the Artel W Warp Spiders. I've been split between them and the Wargame Exclusive Warp Spiders which have a really unique design for the Exarch
I have the wargame exclusive ones. When I bought them the choice was between them and the ones from Ghost. The WE casts are not as good as what Artel W produces. It's not a huge difference in quality, but it's noticeable. The WE models will have visible print lines, for example. Not sure if they will show up after painting though. Another difference is that the Artel models come in more parts. The WE models are generally one complete body with the arms, gun support and power cable separate. The exarch is one piece body, 4 separate blades for the back, 2 pieces of tabard, and two arms with guns.
The WE models look to be slightly smaller as well. All of my aspects save for the DA are still Metal so they're a bit on the smaller side so I was considering the WE models since they might fit in better with my models. Plus with the leaks we've seen on Warp Spiders I think they'll be really fun to play in 9th.
I'm also curious if they'll revamp the Shadow Spectres at all to put them in line with the long awaited improvement to the main aspects.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/12 20:23:41
GW developed the game, setting and aesthetic. They put out the models. Then 3rd parties come along and make their take.
Ah yes, I was there when GW came up with the idea of Super Soldiers in bad ass armor. Totally original.
Oh and they sometimes use melee weapons. Also totally original.
I'm glad I paid for my true scale Mk2 Marine bodies and didn't give GW a cent.
Where ya getting yer arms and heads from?
Stormonu wrote: For me, the joy is in putting some good-looking models on the board and playing out a fantasy battle - not arguing over the poorly-made rules of some 3rd party who neither has any power over my play nor will be visiting me (and my opponent) to ensure we are "playing by the rules"
GW developed the game, setting and aesthetic. They put out the models. Then 3rd parties come along and make their take.
Ah yes, I was there when GW came up with the idea of Super Soldiers in bad ass armor. Totally original.
Oh and they sometimes use melee weapons. Also totally original.
I'm glad I paid for my true scale Mk2 Marine bodies and didn't give GW a cent.
Well?
Good for you!
Clearly after the first bloke wrote the first book, everyone else was just ripping them off.
Does 40K have influences from pre-dating sources? Yes. Yes it does. Of course it does. You may be familiar with the old adage “nothing new under the sun”.
Some laud Shakespeare as being particularly original. I’d wager he’s simply the best preserved playwriting of his era. And even then, Chaucer did much of it first - and was genuinely funny. Which is always a bonus.
40K, whilst it’s influences are somewhat obvious to fans of wider SciFi? Is still its own thing. It has its own specific details (such as its own entirely made up history. Naming and roughly detailing the implantation order thereof, the additional organs which turn a human into an Astartes.
Even the grandfathers of truly modern SciFi (Star Trek and Star Wars) are just interpretations of stuff that came before. And their direct influences are, of course, interpretations of stuff that came even before them. Down and down and down throughout history as we go.
That’s what media is. That’s the nature of the beast.
GW at the very least went to the bother of taking the same ingredients as others and baking their own cake. Those who simply offer alternative sculpts for GW’s signature and even pioneered sculpts? Not so much.
Like that cheapo movie studio that churns out awful movies kind of named and clearly ripping off bigger budget movies.
Do you see the difference?
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Wow, you guys are such busy little bees lately. Price hikes, paint guide removals, rotations, and even any little mention of 3D printing. Buzz, buzz, buzz goes the GW hive, gotta go sting the criticism badgers and save the positivity honey!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/12 23:05:04
Clearly after the first bloke wrote the first book, everyone else was just ripping them off.
Does 40K have influences from pre-dating sources? Yes. Yes it does. Of course it does. You may be familiar with the old adage “nothing new under the sun”.
"Influences." IE, in GW's case, wholesale verbatim copying of concepts and themes from other existing works of fiction and setting.
The irony of this is that when GW started out, their being "influenced" was the same thing they're going after third party miniature makers for now. Look at adeptus arbites and look at judge dredd and tell me I'm wrong.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/12 23:21:19
"Influences." IE, in GW's case, wholesale verbatim copying of concepts and themes from other existing works of fiction and setting.
The irony of this is that when GW started out, their being "influenced" was the same thing they're going after third party miniature makers for now. Look at adeptus arbites and look at judge dredd and tell me I'm wrong.
Those "other works of fiction and setting" have their own story of "influences".
And well, GW made those old Judge Dredd miniatures. Their first three Arbites miniatures (excluding these) looked more like SciFi-Romans. The next three miniatures and the old Enforcers for Necromunda weren't exact copies as well. Sure, the concept is the same (brutal cops with some imperial decoratives); But it's not exactly an unique idea. And they never were a major faction in 40k. Or even a faction in the game (never seen anyone who used the rules from 2nd and 3rd edition to build an army of them).
"Influences." IE, in GW's case, wholesale verbatim copying of concepts and themes from other existing works of fiction and setting.
The irony of this is that when GW started out, their being "influenced" was the same thing they're going after third party miniature makers for now. Look at adeptus arbites and look at judge dredd and tell me I'm wrong.
Those "other works of fiction and setting" have their own story of "influences".
And well, GW made those old Judge Dredd miniatures. Their first three Arbites miniatures (excluding these) looked more like SciFi-Romans. The next three miniatures and the old Enforcers for Necromunda weren't exact copies as well. Sure, the concept is the same (brutal cops with some imperial decoratives); But it's not exactly an unique idea. And they never were a major faction in 40k. Or even a faction in the game (never seen anyone who used the rules from 2nd and 3rd edition to build an army of them).
One of the coolest 40k campaigns in the history of the game (IMHO) was a Citadel Journal piece called Covert X. The idea was that a Space Marine chapter got wiped out except for their 10th company, who escaped to another planet. Because they knew their chapter would continue to be hunted, they had to go underground and disguise themselves. The antagonists were Adeptus Arbites who worked for a corrupted planetary governor- lots of special rules for custom units, Judge HQ's etc. Commander Makallan of Covert X hooked up with a crazy preacher, a Callidus who had never completed her training, an Ogryn named Buzzbox who had received experimental implants and a shady criminal known as the Fixer, who was the only one that could talk Buzzbox down when the implants were acting up.
I've been meaning to scan it and post it in the All Things Old Edition thread over in General. It's a blast, and I'd highly recommend it to anyone still playing second.
I think I have 36 or so metal Arbites, including the skinny Marauder ones, which I created "Detective" rules for- they were all low level Psykers.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/13 00:54:21
Nobody hates 40k as much as 40k fans it seems. Anyone trying the "GW was influenced by xyz" argument to justify IP theft and the creatove bankruptcy of the majority of 3D modelers isn't worth talking to. Theres a huge world of difference between being influenced by something and being a direct copy of it. Its disingenuous to say GW copied things because they share similar names or arsthetics.
They might have had a character named Obi Wan, but aside from the name there was nothing in common between them (the fact that the characters full name is "Obi-Wan Sherlock Closeau" should be a pretty big hint). Naming a character in homage to inspiration is far from theft or cribbing. Invoking Obi-Wan Sherlock Closeau as an example of such demonstrates a complete failure to grasp or comprehend the topic of discussion entiry - to the extent that this should be a "Godwins Law" type thing: if you invoke Obi-Wan Closeau in an attempt to illustrate the idea that GW stole from other franchises, as opposed to being inspired by them, then you have lost the argument entirely.
Hell, maybe we should have a discussion about how Star Wars is a rippff of Dune. The spice mines of kessel? a dune reference. According to some hete, that means all of star wars is therefore stolen shamelessly from dune and thus doesn't deserve any sort of protection or recognition of the work that was put into it.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
GW charges insane prices for their product. That is without a doubt. And the reality is people can download the files very easily. Either exact copies or proxies that are also high quality
The discussion is no longer if it’s moral. Or it GW ripped off Dune or whatever. The discussion is that GWs business model with miniatures will 100% change because of 3D printing
They can either adapt or they will lose out. If they were smart they would begin offering a Apple Music style of business where you go to their website and download the sanctioned files for a model. Maybe they can have ten different models for the Carnifex. All rather similar. But they all count as Carnifexes. All competition legal
They need to learn to play the new game. Or they will just totally lose enough on a lot of business. Once people get a printer. They and all their friends are not going to be buying GW models or drastically reduce buying models.
chaos0xomega wrote: Nobody hates 40k as much as 40k fans it seems. Anyone trying the "GW was influenced by xyz" argument to justify IP theft and the creatove bankruptcy of the majority of 3D modelers isn't worth talking to. Theres a huge world of difference between being influenced by something and being a direct copy of it. Its disingenuous to say GW copied things because they share similar names or arsthetics.
Glad we got that straight.
They might have had a character named Obi Wan, but aside from the name there was nothing in common between them (the fact that the characters full name is "Obi-Wan Sherlock Closeau" should be a pretty big hint). Naming a character in homage to inspiration is far from theft or cribbing. Invoking Obi-Wan Sherlock Closeau as an example of such demonstrates a complete failure to grasp or comprehend the topic of discussion entiry - to the extent that this should be a "Godwins Law" type thing: if you invoke Obi-Wan Closeau in an attempt to illustrate the idea that GW stole from other franchises, as opposed to being inspired by them, then you have lost the argument entirely.
Right. When GW does it, it's inspiration. When anyone else does it, it's theft. Got it. Thanks, Mr. Knight.
Hell, maybe we should have a discussion about how Star Wars is a rippff of Dune. The spice mines of kessel? a dune reference. According to some hete, that means all of star wars is therefore stolen shamelessly from dune and thus doesn't deserve any sort of protection or recognition of the work that was put into it.
Ooh. Whataboutism. That's always good.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/13 06:09:57
Clearly after the first bloke wrote the first book, everyone else was just ripping them off.
Does 40K have influences from pre-dating sources? Yes. Yes it does. Of course it does. You may be familiar with the old adage “nothing new under the sun”.
"Influences." IE, in GW's case, wholesale verbatim copying of concepts and themes from other existing works of fiction and setting.
The irony of this is that when GW started out, their being "influenced" was the same thing they're going after third party miniature makers for now. Look at adeptus arbites and look at judge dredd and tell me I'm wrong.
Oh dear. You should’ve tried a different SciFi property. Happens I have a pretty decent knowledge of Judge Dredd and 2000AD, having been a fan since pretty much as long as I can remember.
GW and 2000AD are contemporaneous. Shared influences, from the state of the UK’s social, economical and political landscape at the time, to music and movies of the time.
We’re talking poorly managed post-Imperial and post-Industrial decline intermingled with the frankly magnificent buildings built with the wealth plundered from across the globe.
2000AD went with Mega Cities. 40K has Hive Cities. The two are not identical. Both are largely inspired by places such as London, which has expanded outward and continued to build on the bones of its past. Both are satires of the failed High Rises in the U.K. Billed as communities in the sky, they quickly fell into disrepair, and fell victim to ongoing social problems. As for heavy handed policing (let’s steer away from the F word, lest it prove a distraction), check out the Miner’s Strike, and how U.K. Police forces handled those.
They are satires of the same thing, created by people living in the same country at the same time exposed to the same influences. Sure, one has fed upon the other, then the other in turn. Welcome to Media. That’s how it works.
None of of it is a direct lifting. None of it is verbatim copying. At all. Look to the wider picture.
Maybe you’d like the “Genestealers are just Aliens”. Well. Kind of. I mean it’s not hard to see what inspired Space Hulk, is it? But there are multiple designs differences between Genestealers and Aliens. Genestealers of course have six limbs, bulbous heads, no prehensile tail and an ovipositor rather than a pharyngeal jaw. To breed within a population? Ovipositor stuffs in a bit of DNA. You then go and have normal for your species reproduction. Those kids are hybrids, and the birth isn’t noted as being particularly fatal. So all we’re left with in terms of commonalities is “alien species, chitinous exo-skeleton and bipedal”.
So…in summary? Try to understand how media works. Try to understand that all media is an influence and is inspired by influences. Nothing is wholly original. But copying someone else’s design to produce knock offs is a very different and indeed legally distinct matter, as is making recasts.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
I've gone through and removed a bunch of off topic posts, please lets keep it on topic and avoid going off on unrelated tangents. Thanks!
IRON WITHIN, IRON WITHOUT.
New Heavy Gear Log! Also...Grey Knights! The correct pronunciation is Imperial Guard and Stormtroopers, "Astra Militarum" and "Tempestus Scions" are something you'll find at Hogwarts.
Anxious to get those new plastics myself - hopefully deliver next week.
Regarding rumors/leaks - did those on the Phoenix lords say if they will be on big (40mm?) bases like Jain Zar was? I assume they will, though that might look a little odd with the old much smaller 90s sculpts for Asurmen/Karandras etc...
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