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 Niiai wrote:
Yeah it gives 2 warlord traits. For 1 CP mind you.

I stil can't figure out if the Neophytes are shotgun or autoguns. I would assume the later since something in that list needs to start on the table.

I caught a little of their tier-list for units in the codex, and he mentioned that list. Apparently he was using the Neophytes to deep strike and charge with. The idea being that he'd make the charge and not die to counter-attacks so that he'd have some boots on an objective to steal it. I guess in his world, people have a hard time killing 10 Neophytes. I'm not going to argue with one of the best in the world, but I know in my games if I charge with 10 Neophytes, I end up with 10 dead Neophytes, or I end up with 10 Neophytes sitting in the open because they failed their 8" +1" rerollable charge (and that's assuming the +1" from an Acolyte Iconward that got into the right spot).

EDIT: because of this, I would assume they're armed with Shotguns.

Charging with Neophytes. I guess they deliver the bad touch.

Tried a version of his list today. Ran with some more elites and only 1 battalion. Ran with my first game VS Tau.

It went all shades for wrong. He got first turn and halved my table deployed forces. A lost tabled my by turn 2. What little came on the table died horribly in his turn 3.

I probably played it all manners of wrong. He deployed very far VS me and had I had first turn I would have had 4 turn 1 charges, but he got first. We also had 1 line of sight blocking terrain that was not so good for T3 5+ saves.

Anyway, it was a good practice game VS Tau. I have never played them before. I got some good datapoints.

Not Online!!! wrote:
Anyways, has anyone tried to field a massed neophyte list yet?
Thinking about agile guerillas and supplies for the trait and two battalions worth of neophytes aswell as 2 iconwards.

Kinda. I ran 3 blocks of 20 in a 1000 point list experimenting with the Pauper Prince's banner relic and Icons. It wasn't intended to be a serious list, just playing with the mechanics a bit. That being said, the two blocks around the iconward held out until turn 4 before going down. I do think MSU squads are probably more optimal overall, but large squads with an Icon feel like good bunkers to hide the Iconward in (and do get more out of Proficient Planning - I had one block of 20 with 4 Mining Lasers drop in with perfect ambush and nuke a squadron of Mortifiers).

I might try a full swarm, though I don't have enough heavy weapons to support 12 squads. Might consider taking out the Abominants for such a list. I feel we really want to have some sort of consistent high damage in our lists to deal with Custodes and the like, and the new Abominant looks like it might be able to fulfill that function on a character chassis that naturally has good synergy with a swarm of (comparatively) expendable bodies.

Yarium wrote:
I caught a little of their tier-list for units in the codex, and he mentioned that list. Apparently he was using the Neophytes to deep strike and charge with. The idea being that he'd make the charge and not die to counter-attacks so that he'd have some boots on an objective to steal it. I guess in his world, people have a hard time killing 10 Neophytes.

I've done this before. Typically the target getting charged isn't a healthy squad, but rather something that has been shot to pieces that still has a couple models left. Most troops are not great in close combat and are fairly survivable once whittled down to just 1-2 models. There is some risk calculation involved admittedly. If you charge into 2 Intercessors for example you will probably loose 2-3 Neophytes to return punches, while 2 Custodes guard will probably kill 5-6 (which is admittedly still enough Neophytes to contest if they pass moral).

The goal isn't to hold the objective for your own scoring benefit, but rather to prevent the opponent from scoring that turn. The Neophytes used in such a maneuver are not expected to survive (and realistically shouldn't), just earn points indirectly by reducing what the opponent can get on their turn.

 Strat_N8 wrote:

Not Online!!! wrote:
Anyways, has anyone tried to field a massed neophyte list yet?
Thinking about agile guerillas and supplies for the trait and two battalions worth of neophytes aswell as 2 iconwards.

Kinda. I ran 3 blocks of 20 in a 1000 point list experimenting with the Pauper Prince's banner relic and Icons. It wasn't intended to be a serious list, just playing with the mechanics a bit. That being said, the two blocks around the iconward held out until turn 4 before going down. I do think MSU squads are probably more optimal overall, but large squads with an Icon feel like good bunkers to hide the Iconward in (and do get more out of Proficient Planning - I had one block of 20 with 4 Mining Lasers drop in with perfect ambush and nuke a squadron of Mortifiers).

I might try a full swarm, though I don't have enough heavy weapons to support 12 squads. Might consider taking out the Abominants for such a list. I feel we really want to have some sort of consistent high damage in our lists to deal with Custodes and the like, and the new Abominant looks like it might be able to fulfill that function on a character chassis that naturally has good synergy with a swarm of (comparatively) expendable bodies.

Well i still have my R&H horde lying around and the more i look at the custom traits the more i see and can imagine some opportunistic plays.

Atm i am considering the following list:


Just what i atm can field

Honestly for efectiveness sake i think one should skip the reductus and instead hand out mining lasers wherever possible, with agile guerrilas pretty much no downsides and same range but more S AND can hit aircraft. NVM that they average out at 3.5 damage. Why GW thought that 80pts is fair to the reductus i will never know, especially when you can field 5 mininglasers and a nade launcher for that price... alas GW once again has hit 8.5 marine codex type design anyways with tau and Bananas so we are back at gw nonsense anyway.

That said, so far i am positively surprised about rifle sancti, not for their assasination capability that only really is important seemingly to me atleast in a mirror match or against other buff charachter reliant builds, but rather as a 36" crossfire marker provider and anti elite infantry capability.
Nade launchers aswell can be shockingly effective for a 5 pts upgrade with crossfire or as crossfire provider. I think stubbers are compared to nade launchers underwhelming.

What are people thoughts of the Seismic cannon? 15 pts is a tad steep for my taste, but maybee i am underestimating them?

Not Online!!! wrote:

Why GW thought that 80pts is fair to the reductus i will never know, especially when you can field 5 mininglasers and a nade launcher for that price...

I think they started with the base cost for a Neophyte character (see Clamavus, Nexos, and Biophagus) and tacked on ~20 points for the Demolition Charge and Remote Explosives weapons. The last few points were probably to accommodate the extra stealth rule and her mine ability (moral wound generators are always a bit pricy, even if unreliable or finicky to work with).

She probably should be closer to 65-70 but it is what it is. She does have the useful ability to hide without minions which makes her pretty solid for backfield objectives. The Demolition Charge is also handy for Reckless Explosives if she ends up in melee (you don't really care if you roll a 1 since she probably won't survive regardless).

Not Online!!! wrote:

What are people thoughts of the Seismic cannon? 15 pts is a tad steep for my taste, but maybee i am underestimating them?

I like them. They are fairly flexible and deadly when they get to benefit from Exposed (which I think is why they are priced as they are). The base S4 profile wounds GEQ on a 2+ in such instances and up to T7 on a 4+ (which is impressive given the rate of fire) while the S6 profile wounds T5 and under on a 2+ and anything over T6 on a 4+ (again, also fairly impressive with the rate of fire). They still want to keep pointed at infantry in most cases though.

And you can add a damage to them. Pretty sweet in a 20 man blob

Seizmics are insanely useful. Your opponent will play around that unit once they see what it does which will win you games.

I run 20 with a banner and 4 SC near the iconward. My list also runs a 10 and a 4 man jackal unit with 3 demos in each.

The more I play the more I realize the best units in the book are the Neophytes and the Jackals.

I run Rusted claw as I means I can advance and shoot with no penalty and I also ignore all the AP massed fire that is recently in the game. The 20 man blob just tags terrain with half the unit and strings around corners with the heavies and overcharges every turn. If you roll 4 1's you kill your canons and stay hidden since you can res them back next turn anyway and if the unit gets shot you just proc +1 save in cover and your neos have a 3+ save ignoring ap -1 and reducing -2.

Bikes are similar but arguably better. they scout 9" for free, then can move and toss a demo charge, in the shooting phase toss another demo charge then assault and throw the 3rd demo charge. Often turn 1 I over charge these fellers since they can get near a key target making the demos wound on 2's (jackal rules for being close) at -3 3 damage, incinerators at 2 damage lol. You can also max their shots and generally they even survive often as the ap reduction and -1 to hit really make them a PITA. Then you can always drive back to the banner and threaten to res bombs and quads, which means your opponent generally has to shoot way more then they want into them.

A couple units I am becoming less sold on are actually the kellermorph and the nexos. Everyone raves about them but often the kellermorph struggles to earn his points back, while giving up assassinate and not helping on objectives much and the nexos eats a CP so I can break even by turn 3 or 4 since I can never roll regens lol. I am actually considering switching to the sniper since he also auto gens a CF token but can also sit in the open on my home objective and not be shot.

So far all you tourney players, can you swap proficient planning on units between tourney rounds or is it something that's hardcoded in your list?

 deviantduck wrote:
So far all you tourney players, can you swap proficient planning on units between tourney rounds or is it something that's hardcoded in your list?

It is part of your list.

Well...if the leaks are accurate, GSC Stealers are Better than Hive Fleet stealers.

pinecone77 wrote:
Well...if the leaks are accurate, GSC Stealers are Better than Hive Fleet stealers.

They do different things. Infiltrate on powerful combat units is a powerful rule. They don't 'need' advance and charge if they have infiltrate and would actually become even more ridiculous if they did.

Not sure they needed to be more expensive tho.

Yeah, I just wish they had the same stats, beyond Moar Powah! I hate GW making the "same" unit different. Extra because I am planning to try out GSC allies, and I could end up with two flavors of Stealer...

When adding Brood Brothers, you can only include units with the <regiment> keyword, not units with an auto locked regiment such as Cadia. AKA, you can't include Creed, correct?

 deviantduck wrote:
When adding Brood Brothers, you can only include units with the <regiment> keyword, not units with an auto locked regiment such as Cadia. AKA, you can't include Creed, correct?

Correct. The new version of Brood Brothers acts like a <Regiment> keyword now. A unit with a pre-selected <Regiment> can't replace theirs so they are ineligible for the detachment.

With hybrid acolytes, it seems like the drill is the way to go. The -1 to hit on the cutter seems like a big gamble with all the -1 hit stuff already out there. With the saw, the extra damage doesn't seem as worthwhile vs the 18% chance for 2 mortals. Plus, there's a ton of damage reduction out there making the saws worse than the drills.

What do you guys field?

Also, do you just buy a crap ton of acolyte boxes to get enough drills? Cause.. dayum.

with the base cults, yes Drills are the best option.

But Industrial Affinity custom trait exists and it just removed all the downside from the Cutter making it the 'best' option.
Drills are still nice in theory but in practice your fishing for 6's and thats just unreliable.

And saws are just worse then cutters against anything with more then 2 wounds, even with the -1.

As for bitz. that's what 3d printers and printing services are for these days.

You can argue that Drills are still better even for Industrial Affinity, just because of autowound. There's other things which affect hit rolls for Drills which Industrial Affinity can help with, but not much that helps Cutters with wound rolls, particularly against targets that force minimum rolls.

 deviantduck wrote:
With hybrid acolytes, it seems like the drill is the way to go. The -1 to hit on the cutter seems like a big gamble with all the -1 hit stuff already out there. With the saw, the extra damage doesn't seem as worthwhile vs the 18% chance for 2 mortals. Plus, there's a ton of damage reduction out there making the saws worse than the drills.

What do you guys field?

Also, do you just buy a crap ton of acolyte boxes to get enough drills? Cause.. dayum.

Don't you mean the opposite?

If you have -1 to-hit, another -1 doesn't matter.

 Strat_N8 wrote:
Correct. The new version of Brood Brothers acts like a <Regiment> keyword now. A unit with a pre-selected <Regiment> can't replace theirs so they are ineligible for the detachment.

This. Though I would suggest waiting for the next Guard codex before adding Brood Brothers. The only good remaining unit at the moment is the tank commander, which has dropped off in power considerably. They're now both a glass cannon and their damage really isn't what it once was.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
With hybrid acolytes, it seems like the drill is the way to go. The -1 to hit on the cutter seems like a big gamble with all the -1 hit stuff already out there. With the saw, the extra damage doesn't seem as worthwhile vs the 18% chance for 2 mortals. Plus, there's a ton of damage reduction out there making the saws worse than the drills.

What do you guys field?

Also, do you just buy a crap ton of acolyte boxes to get enough drills? Cause.. dayum.

Don't you mean the opposite?

If you have -1 to-hit, another -1 doesn't matter.

Due to covid and a couple fresh babies, I've only gotten 1 game of 9th in with my sisters, and now I'm building GSC. I didn't realize -1 to hit was capped. Good to know. So that's certainly less of a con.

Kind of feel the drills are the more generalist weapon. I think saws and cutters work out better into specifically 2 and 3 wound models - but that's before any -1 damage, FNP.

I also think things like Transhuman can really skew your odds of an unlucky wound roll. Which doesn't apply with the drills. (I guess the equivalent there is just not getting any 6s - but still.)

Can 1 unit tag multiple enemies for a crossfire marker? The way I read the rule a unit has to fire 100% of its shots at 1 unit to gain the marker. Am I reading it wrong?

In your Shooting phase, each time a CROSSFIRE unit is selected to shoot, if all of those attacks target one enemy unit without a crossfire marker, after resolving those attacks, the target gains a crossfire marker if any of the following conditions were satisfied:

Are you asking for special permision? You can't.

Although I do believe you can benefit from crosfire during split fire.

Yes, in order to add a crossfire token, the shooting unit must target one unit with all their attacks. Any unit with a crossfire token already on it has the effects of crossfire and/or exposed
applied regardless of how the crossfire unit targeting them is dividing it's attacks.

Thanks. That's how I interpreted it, too. Time to correct a guy on reddit.

Life is to short to argue on reddit.

 Niiai wrote:
Life is to short to argue on reddit.

well it confused a noob like me, so i'm trying to help someone else that comes across the post.

I appreciate your opinion and you have a good point.

Is there a limit to how much of your list can be deployed underground?

Are we restricted to the 50% rule?

 deviantduck wrote:
Is there a limit to how much of your list can be deployed underground?

Are we restricted to the 50% rule?

Before the game starts, yes.

But if you use that strat to dump people underground after the game starts, that can exceed the 50% rule.