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 Thairne wrote:
I'm sorry, but no

Just compare the stats:
A dual gun telemon gives you:
8 S7 -3 2D shots.
4 S8 0 1D attacks.

A mixed telemon gives you:
4 S7 -3 2D shots
2D3 S6 -2 1D autohits
5 S16 -4 4D attacks

it not only gives you a wider profile for defending yourself, those 4 S8 attacks will likely bounce of any armour you find and then deal 1W.
A shooty telemon kills 4 MEQ per turn. 7 if you shoot in combat.

A mixed telemon kills 2 on approach with the illiastus, another with the flamer, then 4 with the caestus.
While thats "only" 7, remember that this gun is specifically designed to kill MEQs.
What if you run into a vehicle? A monstrous creature? A horde? Or even a dreadnought? This would all skew the results largely in the favour of the mixed loadout.

Why is a Dread with 2 48" guns getting into combat with a Dread? Even against a Deep Striking one that's unlikely.

Because the enemy usually has something planned on his own.
Replace a dread with anything else with -1D. Dreadnoughts are just the most common example.

But if you dont see the math being downright better and the unit being more flexible instead of being a 260pt non obsec backline sitter that falls flat against anything non-SM...

its not that the mixed loadout isnt more versital though. It's that your opponent will most likely make half your profile useless by never approaching.

This can be a good thing, as it means a telemon can basically zone out a chunk of the table.

The shooty version will however, get more value out of its weapons over the course of the game, whereas the mixed and melee versions will be less efficient, but also be a useful zoning tool.

 Eihnlazer wrote:
its not that the mixed loadout isnt more versital though. It's that your opponent will most likely make half your profile useless by never approaching.

This can be a good thing, as it means a telemon can basically zone out a chunk of the table.

The shooty version will however, get more value out of its weapons over the course of the game, whereas the mixed and melee versions will be less efficient, but also be a useful zoning tool.

300 points is a lot to just zone.

Seriously, if you are burning your precious 6CP on a DS telemon, I don't know what to tell you. No self respecting player is going to leave a giant gap in the middle of their back field, with a sign on it that says "Feel free to drop a mini knight right here and charge my WL after melting my other HQs."

Custodes are soldiers, who walk forward, very slowly, and punch things in the face. Sometimes they ride bikes, but those cost a lot, and Wardens are basically free. Dreads loose out on all the best abilities that make Custodes what they are. They also turn into dead weight after your opponent melts them to their bottom bracket in turn 2 with dedicated AT fire.

Yo, 3 quick questions:

1. I played a custodes bro who 'shot smoke launchers' giving his jetbikes -1 to hit. Do bikes even have smoke launchers?

2. If they do have smoke launchers, when can they shoot them? Bro shot them when I targeted his unit.

3. Broskie was rolling 4++ invulns on the bikes... I thought they had 5++ invuln. Is there a rule I'm not aware of that gives a 4++ ?

so I ran the double telemon list vs drukhari and it was glorious. ended up culverin/fist on both and they just dominated totally.

I felt they were so weak going in but they drew a lot of fire power and even though they have very few shots, they always hit. and being so dangerous in melee gives them an edge that 4 extra shots can't even begin to make up for.

so yeah, thairne. I guess your assessment was spot on.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
btw: the spacious bolt launcher says "if the model hasn't moved this TURN (not battle round) change number of shots to heavy 10". so if you get charged in your opponents turn and opt to overwatch it will always be ten shots no matter what you did on your turn, right?

I never thought about this. it makes the culverin fist combo pretty amazing on overwatch. My opponent couldn't really charge it with the rather frail glascannon infantry. id get 2d3 s6 hits from the plasma projektor and the bolt launcher would land a few hits to according to math. Every incubi that dies is a huge blow to such a play.

morpheusgotmeout wrote:
Yo, 3 quick questions:

1. I played a custodes bro who 'shot smoke launchers' giving his jetbikes -1 to hit. Do bikes even have smoke launchers?

2. If they do have smoke launchers, when can they shoot them? Bro shot them when I targeted his unit.

3. Broskie was rolling 4++ invulns on the bikes... I thought they had 5++ invuln. Is there a rule I'm not aware of that gives a 4++ ?

1. no they don't have them
2. see above
3. they the get the 4++ like all the infantry from the Aegis of the Emperor rule.

morpheusgotmeout wrote:
Yo, 3 quick questions:

1. I played a custodes bro who 'shot smoke launchers' giving his jetbikes -1 to hit. Do bikes even have smoke launchers?

2. If they do have smoke launchers, when can they shoot them? Bro shot them when I targeted his unit.

3. Broskie was rolling 4++ invulns on the bikes... I thought they had 5++ invuln. Is there a rule I'm not aware of that gives a 4++ ?

1. No Jetbikes do not have Smoke Launchers. Only Land Raiders and Rhinos do. So your opponent made a mistake there.

2. It’s a Stratagem. Used when you target a vehicle (in shooting) with the Smokescreen keyword.

3. Aegis of the Emperor gives Custodes an Invulnerable Save of 4+ And a 6+ Against Mortal Wounds. Bikes do get this.

Then there are the different Shield Host specific rules, such as Emperors Chosen getting a 4+ Save against Mortal Wounds instead of the default 6+

Hope that helps.

Scoundrel80 wrote:

so yeah, thairne. I guess your assessment was spot on.

One does not get that a lot on the interwebs, so thanks and kudos

Dude, no problem. Thats what these threads are all about for me was amazing to get inspiration here, build the thing you suggested, study the board and make It work.

So Thanks again.

I Think its the first time since the book dropped that i havent used at least 3xsalvo bike plus a captain. Its super wierd without Them. We simply dont have Any other ranged antitank and Because We want to take out Any High ap guns fast not having that t1 38 threat range for a hard target alpha is a Huge thing.

In this match, though, i played Drukhari so the culverins on the telemons could actually help me a little as his Vehicles are only t6.

Honestly, im not sure id take the grav tank over a telemon. I should add, that this os guesswork as the caladius is the only custode Unit i havent played irl, but this Big guys Seem very cool still. The EC reroll looks really good on Them when they Can alt ik two phases. Three with a pesky overwatch.

Well if you look at tournament play, its basically all about custodian guard/sags for that obsec, dreads for that punch and calladiuses for the range firepower.

TBH salvo bikes have really, really weak shooting for their pts cost. The big thing is in the combination of shot, speed and punch. One half-assed melta for 80pts is nothing spectacular.

A Calladius fulfills a different role than a telemon and they're not competing anyway, imo. A telemon is a mini knight and just as knights it needs to move up the board and bring all its abilities to bear. A calladius is a way cheaper gun platform with greater mobility and actually WANTS to sit back and snipe while getting good angles with its own maneuverability. So depending on what you want/need in your list, a calladius is quite good (or rather, the only option).
There are lists that are doing really well that are including 3 Helverins to plug that gap. They provide a nice amount of S7 D3 shooting in a competitively priced package.

the caladius seems so incredibly good. are they as good as they seem or do they underperform on the tabletop? my problem is I dont own one.

Anyone seen the Votann codex leak on tactical tortoise? I always get told that custodes players have no right to complain because we have a decent winrate, which is true, but have you seen the einhyr hearth guard?
With the right subfaction they are T6. They come with a 2+save and have the void armor rule which is basically AoC+ (-1ap on enemy attacks and no wound and damage rolls against them) and - 1dmg for 35p per model.

I have.
Dont forge that they alternatively can come with a 4++.
At this point its just time to... shake your head.
GW is fething this up on purpose. There are too many things that explicitely call out things to be different to be mistakes, like autowounding counting as an auto 6.
They overpowered this codex with full intent.

 Thairne wrote:
I have.
Dont forge that they alternatively can come with a 4++.
At this point its just time to... shake your head.
GW is fething this up on purpose. There are too many things that explicitely call out things to be different to be mistakes, like autowounding counting as an auto 6.
They overpowered this codex with full intent.

The 4++ is a strong subfaction bonus for the hecaton land fortress, but I don't think the hearthguard even need it. Infantry with a 2+ and AoC+ seldomly need an invuln. Making them T6 on the other hand is nasty imo.

I'm really interested how the Votann VS custodes matchup is going to shape up eventually.

Considering there are combos where the magnarail just oneshots a squad of custodes with 8-10MW without a single dice rolled...
And the Champion with rerolls can dish 8-12MW easily as well..
I do as well. Just to see how big the big fire made of feth actually is.
I want to see how bright it burns, but burn it will.

But noooooo, Auspice was too broken and can only be used once LOL

Same thought.
ONE unit per phase, shutting off rerolls. Broken.
ALL units, ALWAYS, no wound rerolls. Thats fine.

I smell double standard.

Votan can, start of turn 1, throw down 3 tokens on an enemy unit. +1 to hit on their own unit. At that point they are hitting on 2+, and any hit of 3+ auto wounds with AP-1.

Say goodbye to three Custodes from one unit's basic weapon fire. (Admittedly buffed by HQ, but I didn't count reroll to hit either)

Whelp, this is what happens when you are first in line for the stat creep festival.

Can't wait to see the Guard shenanigans.

1: Infantry squads are now completely free. You get 3 per turn for free from reserves.

2. Sentinels are now WS2+, 12W, T7, and give LOS to anything within 12" of them. So that LC now is hitting without LoS.

3. Ogryns are now 8Ws a pop, S6T6, with 12 attacks, for 25ppm.

Custodes need access to aoc. Get that and the faction is set without any further changes

I'd take Obsec for bikes over AoC. We already have the best saves in the game.

I guess we need to ascertain what the goal of our balance suggestion is supposed to be.

While purely considering WR, custodes are about as fine as they can be.
Top 3 placings or even winning a GT is a rarity though.
And the fluff and way the army plays as well as internal consistency is arse.

Looks like the only metric GW considers is the first one.... which is sad.

The fluff to actual table top in this game is generally arse. But to be fair, we'd have Custodes ROFLStomping all over if that were true, or Nids eating everyone. All I wanted in the entirety of 9th was flat 3 damage axes. Instead we got 2 damage accross the board, a bunch or worthless rules, strats, and gear choices, locks from using actually good combinations, and a very crappy stance system. Oh and +1 to wounds for all infantry.

I would literally give all that up for a flat 3 damage axe, and that would solve 90% of my problems and I'd actually have fun with Custodes.

AoC and flat 3 damage axes, even with a points hike, would bring a lot of flavor back to Custodes.

I don't get the insistence for us to get AOC. I get why we should have it, but I don't get what it would do for us. We already have the best saves in the GAME. Turning off AP1 is irrelevant. Besides, GW would just screw it up and only give it to Sags or something dumb like Wardens. And only for 15ppm.

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I don't get the insistence for us to get AOC. I get why we should have it, but I don't get what it would do for us. We already have the best saves in the GAME. Turning off AP1 is irrelevant. Besides, GW would just screw it up and only give it to Sags or something dumb like Wardens. And only for 15ppm.

We don't. Every other terminator has better protection against ap1 and ap2. And massed ap1/2 fire is how you can very effectively deal with custodes.
The insistence stems from the every increasing lethality of the game. I also think we should get AoC before a weapon dmg increase is even on the table. Whatever buff we theoretically get, it HAS to be accompanied by a points increase across the board otherwise we might go back to being too oppressive.

The point here is not competitiveness of the faction, custodes are fine (at least in comp play, how representative this is for the vast majority of players is another topic), but the faction feels like crap.

To sum it up in one sentence: the faction fantasy of custodes is not well realised in the gameplay in the context of the current state of the game and AoC can help with that, IF a buff like that is also accompanied by a points increase.
And no, making custodes more lore accurate does not mean they roflstomp everything in the setting, they never have.

Edit: so in conclusion, I believe most custodes players would prefer playing more expensive, but slightly more powerful models.

Tiberias wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I don't get the insistence for us to get AOC. I get why we should have it, but I don't get what it would do for us. We already have the best saves in the GAME. Turning off AP1 is irrelevant. Besides, GW would just screw it up and only give it to Sags or something dumb like Wardens. And only for 15ppm.

We don't. Every other terminator has better protection against ap1 and ap2. And massed ap1/2 fire is how you can very effectively deal with custodes.
The insistence stems from the every increasing lethality of the game. I also think we should get AoC before a weapon dmg increase is even on the table. Whatever buff we theoretically get, it HAS to be accompanied by a points increase across the board otherwise we might go back to being too oppressive.

The point here is not competitiveness of the faction, custodes are fine (at least in comp play, how representative this is for the vast majority of players is another topic), but the faction feels like crap.

To sum it up in one sentence: the faction fantasy of custodes is not well realised in the gameplay in the context of the current state of the game and AoC can help with that, IF a buff like that is also accompanied by a points increase.
And no, making custodes more lore accurate does not mean they roflstomp everything in the setting, they never have.

Edit: so in conclusion, I believe most custodes players would prefer playing more expensive, but slightly more powerful models.

Custodes are not fine competitively. They're boring and, frankly, gak into the factions that can actually win tournaments.

stratigo wrote:

Tiberias wrote:

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
I don't get the insistence for us to get AOC. I get why we should have it, but I don't get what it would do for us. We already have the best saves in the GAME. Turning off AP1 is irrelevant. Besides, GW would just screw it up and only give it to Sags or something dumb like Wardens. And only for 15ppm.

We don't. Every other terminator has better protection against ap1 and ap2. And massed ap1/2 fire is how you can very effectively deal with custodes.
The insistence stems from the every increasing lethality of the game. I also think we should get AoC before a weapon dmg increase is even on the table. Whatever buff we theoretically get, it HAS to be accompanied by a points increase across the board otherwise we might go back to being too oppressive.

The point here is not competitiveness of the faction, custodes are fine (at least in comp play, how representative this is for the vast majority of players is another topic), but the faction feels like crap.

To sum it up in one sentence: the faction fantasy of custodes is not well realised in the gameplay in the context of the current state of the game and AoC can help with that, IF a buff like that is also accompanied by a points increase.
And no, making custodes more lore accurate does not mean they roflstomp everything in the setting, they never have.

Edit: so in conclusion, I believe most custodes players would prefer playing more expensive, but slightly more powerful models.

Custodes are not fine competitively. They're boring and, frankly, gak into the factions that can actually win tournaments.

Imo you can only make that argument regarding actual tournament wins. Considering the comp winrate of custodes in nephilim, the faction is fine...well if you only consider the winrate metric, imo the faction is not fine especially regarding internal balance and realized faction fantasy on the tabletop.