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Accursed Weapons are for Chosen and Terminators only. Additionally: power fists and chainfists are NOT Accursed Weapons, and retain their individual rules.
This is making my brain hurt. I feel like that Datasheet is going to be a nightmare. I'mg oing to assume Lightning Claws are also not accursed?
The B&C poster only specifically called out power fists and chainfists as not being Accursed Weapons. I assume that the "one model per 5 can replace their boltgun with one additional Accursed Weapon" is meant to represent paired lightning claws, so lightning claws are Accursed Weapons for Chosen and Terminators. It's only a guess though.
Accursed Weapons are for Chosen and Terminators only. Additionally: power fists and chainfists are NOT Accursed Weapons, and retain their individual rules.
This is making my brain hurt. I feel like that Datasheet is going to be a nightmare. I'mg oing to assume Lightning Claws are also not accursed?
Powerfist / claws are probably for the unit champion only looking at the sprue quantities. Then all the all various weapon types (chain weapons, sword, axe, etc) fall under the same profile.
The loadout GW has been showing for the Chosen has the Champion with a power maul, 1 Chosen with Dual Claws, 1 with Powerfist, and 2 other members, so we know that most likely isn't the case.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/01 16:27:02
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
There’s honestly nothing stopping gw from making kits where you can arm everyone with every option, or at the least making them multipart to the point where you can have a wargear kit. There’s also nothing stopping em from making things cost sub-5 points to balance them more.
Except GW incompetence.
"Us Blood Axes hav lernt' a lot from da humies. How best ta kill 'em, fer example."
— Korporal Snagbrat of the Dreadblade Kommandos
blood reaper wrote: Interesting that effort converting miniatures doesn't matter if they don't meet a certain nebulous idea of the lore. What does the personal preference of plastic figures matter? Are you telling me Alpha Legion, with their doctrine of 'everyone looks the same and dresses to avoid drawing attention' would have unique weapon load outs for every member?
Maybe you should look at actual AL models, not your straw fanfictiony ones. Both HH and 40K. Unless you're telling me Armillus Dynat, Alpha Legion Praetor, and Autilon Skor look the same and have identical loadouts?
And as a brief question; what if you had it that your Chaos Space Marines were well organised renegades who followed in fairly classic legion traditions of concentrating weapons.
Seeing they don't have their homeworlds or subject forge worlds anymore, it's about as valid question as asking what if they were still loyalist or pretending to be one of the current chapters.
Incidentally, in all 3 cases the answer would be the same - you'd use Codex: SM, because that's what would fit their fluff and organization. Not try to invent some laughable excuse for minmaxing and expect people to just roll with it. And hell, why stop here? What if they all had looted custodes gear? Or stole eldar wraith technology and all had wraith bodies? Or local necron lord fell in love with them and gifted them a truck of phase swords?
Is this serious argument of a troll? but fine, let's unpack these photos. On the first one, you see a few soviet soldiers holding SMGs. You know, your basic, light infantry weapon. Yes, they also hold a few captured german guns, but they are notably not in combat, not on the front lines, not using them, and for all we know it's just a propaganda photo showing off spoils of battle.
The second photo is even more comical, as it's just a squad armed with STGs. Your basic assault rifle, light infantry weapon, again. You can see they don't all hold panzerfausts, HMGs like MG-42, sniper rifles, flamethrowers or whatever gak that even Hollywood would call stupid and over the top, that you are trying to call 'sensible'. Gee, I wonder why?
There is this fantasy in the heads of certain people that unless you leap through several hoops and have some kind of specialised approach towards something, you didn't really achieve that goal. Ambushing an enemy unit with a mass of anti-tank weapons isn't legitimate; you have to fight him with three different units, most of whom can't harm him.
No, there is this comical fantasy in the heads of munchkin min-maxers that looks, fluff, realism, and all that silly stuff don't count, must WAAAC harder. Who cares about dumb gak like weapon costs and ammo logistics, your renegades on the run MUST be regimented like IG, pee on fluff, logic, and common sense, because anyone who follows these is [insert whatever slur for people who like setting/balance is 'in' this week], eh?
But hey, feel free to prove me wrong and show how US army, richest organization on the planet, gives every soldier in basic platoon a Javelin anti-tank launcher and two heavy machine guns, one for each arm. What? They don't? Maybe you should write them angry mail saying how dumb they are because they just give them something "wimpy" like M4 glorified SMG, and without a grenade launcher at that
I hate how forums are set up because they make organising responses an absolute nightmare.
I don't remember Chosen being officers. Are Chosen officers? Are Chosen Praetors? Why are you raising those examples?
Incidentally, the Alpha Legion Praetor models... are actually designed to look very similar to one another and even share the same kind of armour design as Alpharius. Funny that you didn't bring that up. Funny how you didn't bring up the equipment of Headhunters, either.
Chaos Space Marines do have home worlds in some cases. A number of warbands do have home bases.
The Space Marine codex doesn't have marks or Daemon Engines.
The point of the photos was in lieu of a wider description, but during the war both the Soviets and Germans concentrated certain units around specific weapons. I.e., Soviet troops made use of SMG companies, primarily armed with, you guessed it, SMGs. Volksgrenadiers on the other-hand primarily made use of STG-44s.
I don't recall saying fluff doesn't count. It seems very silly to suggest all Chaos Space Marines are just rabid weirdos with zero organisation. iirc the Death Guard, i.e., actual rabid weirdos, actually marched into the Eye of Terror in good order.
I can't imagine Javlein anti-tank launchers would be good against every opponent. Nor would HMGs. You'd struggle to keep up logistics or ammunition. I don't recall plasma guns being the same as these weapons?
Your post is full of strawman examples and dishonesty. Casuals have a serious case of scrub mentality.
Dudeface wrote: I'm curious why all the veterans in your army, magically carry the exact same loadout with 0 personal preference. "Welcome to the Blood Reapers, here we only craft combi plasmas and powerfists!"
I can just see the scene. A few Blood Reapers are standing around waiting for the next raid. Sgt. Ralph comes in with a new recruit. "Alright son let's get you equipped so you can go out on the next raid."
"Thanks Sarge. What do I need?"
"Well you get this wonderful bolt pistol and chain sword combo. It's been a favorite for years."
"Wow! Thanks again Sarge. By the way what's the next raid going to be against?"
"I'm pretty sure I heard the Captain say something about some lousy bug ship that's getting to close to our turf."
"Gee Sarge, I'm not sure that I want to go toe to claw with some tyranids. Can I have a heavy bolter like that guy over there?"
"Sorry son. we're all individualist here. Fred already has a heavy weapon. Charlie over there has a special weapon. I have a plasma pistol and power axe. So I'm afraid you'll have to make do."
Now that's CAAC.
This is why I made a unit of guys all armed with combi-bolters. Firstly, I think it looks cool, secondly, it puts out a lot of shots and can kill swarming units very quickly.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
lord_blackfang wrote: How to spot WAACers, they say they're not WAAC but blame "CAAC" for all their problems
I don't recall blaming you for anything since you uh, don't actually have any influence on the game. I just dislike casuals scrub mentality mindset (this mindset is indicated by the fact 'WAAC' has changed from 'outright cheating and lying' to 'bringing a good list').
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/02/01 16:40:56
The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.
lord_blackfang wrote: How to spot WAACers, they say they're not WAAC but blame "CAAC" for all their problems
It is useless for any discourse to set up people as binary choices. It does your argument no good, especially since no one here has blamed people who enjoy casuals for causing problems. If anything the issue is pointed at how GW has set up the entire thing and how problematic it is in various ways. At worst people have argued that casuals might not see the issue for what it is, but no one is blamed.
I would, however, suggest that people might enjoy Kill Team much better if they really want every weapon to be unique and get the feeling you are a roving warband. I do believe this is a big source of contention as 40k in 2nd edition was much more of a skirmish game than its current iterations, and I get the feeling people miss the more RP aspect that 2nd edition had.
I know I enjoy KT for that reason. You are closer to your squad unit than in a large 40k game.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/02/01 16:48:09
lord_blackfang wrote: How to spot WAACers, they say they're not WAAC but blame "CAAC" for all their problems
It is useless for any discourse to set up people as binary choices. It does your argument no good, especially since no one here has blamed people who enjoy casuals for causing problems. If anything the issue is pointed at how GW has set up the entire thing and how problematic it is in various ways. At worst people have argued that casuals might not see the issue for what it is, but no one is blamed.
I should say that while I do massively dislike CAAC attitudes, I do not blame CAAC for the faults of the game. Incidentally it is telling of a 'CAAC' attitude that someone who has an interest in bringing strong lists is 'WAAC' (back in the day, WAAC did not mean competitive, but meant people who lied, cheated, and actively subverted the game to win).
The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.
I just dislike casuals scrub mentality mindset (this mindset is indicated by the fact 'WAAC' has changed from 'outright cheating and lying' to 'bringing a good list').
This bit is the issue people are having, you can word it a million ways, none of which carry any connotations, but you're projecting as being better than a hypothetical group based on your choice of wording.
Should people with mishmash unit loadouts expect to win competitive games? No. Should people be expected to build units one specific way and spam to have fair games? Also no.
WAAC isn't just having a good list, it's the douchey attitude associated with it.
lord_blackfang wrote: So is that just straight up literally the contents of the sprue, or what?
Yup.
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
Honestly I thought B&C had kinda died off a long time ago. I remember back in the day I would visit there, and here, most days, but I stopped going there cos it was all just space marines (which was kind of dull, even though they are my primary interest). A quick check of traffic says it has 1/3 of the traffic of Dakka, which is surprisingly high imo.
I just dislike casuals scrub mentality mindset (this mindset is indicated by the fact 'WAAC' has changed from 'outright cheating and lying' to 'bringing a good list').
This bit is the issue people are having, you can word it a million ways, none of which carry any connotations, but you're projecting as being better than a hypothetical group based on your choice of wording.
Should people with mishmash unit loadouts expect to win competitive games? No. Should people be expected to build units one specific way and spam to have fair games? Also no.
WAAC isn't just having a good list, it's the douchey attitude associated with it.
I do feel myself to be better than people who feel they are the arbitrator of nebulous lore and are consistently dishonest. Casual at all costs is not 'causal' - causal at all costs is a specific attitude and mindset.
An indicator of the dishonest involved in it is this;
"Should people be expected to build units one specific way and spam to have fair games? Also no."
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a Reaper Autocannon or heavy flamer
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for an additional Accursed Weapon
3 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a power fist
1 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a chainfist
2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-flamer
2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-melta
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a combi-plasma
I feel dirty just typing that. 26 years of CSM rules just sacrificed on the alter of GW's inability to put enough options in the box.
I now return you to this annoying "competitive vs casual" debate that seems to be infecting dakka.
Edit: B&C poster says that there is NO stratagem for Accursed Weapons.
I hope no one put effort into giving all their Terminators chain axes and combi plasmas like I did. Of course, me putting time and effort into my models makes me a WAAC monster.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/02/01 18:13:16
The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.
blood reaper wrote: I hope no one put effort into giving all their Terminators chain axes and combi plasmas like I did. Of course, me putting time and effort into my models makes me a WAAC monster.
Newsflash, meta chasing is called that because it's something you have to do perpetually, you don't catch the meta and then play the same OP gak forever.
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
I just dislike casuals scrub mentality mindset (this mindset is indicated by the fact 'WAAC' has changed from 'outright cheating and lying' to 'bringing a good list').
This bit is the issue people are having, you can word it a million ways, none of which carry any connotations, but you're projecting as being better than a hypothetical group based on your choice of wording.
Should people with mishmash unit loadouts expect to win competitive games? No. Should people be expected to build units one specific way and spam to have fair games? Also no.
WAAC isn't just having a good list, it's the douchey attitude associated with it.
I do feel myself to be better than people who feel they are the arbitrator of nebulous lore and are consistently dishonest. Casual at all costs is not 'causal' - causal at all costs is a specific attitude and mindset.
An indicator of the dishonest involved in it is this;
"Should people be expected to build units one specific way and spam to have fair games? Also no."
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a Reaper Autocannon or heavy flamer
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for an additional Accursed Weapon
3 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a power fist
1 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a chainfist
2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-flamer
2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-melta
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a combi-plasma
I feel dirty just typing that. 26 years of CSM rules just sacrificed on the alter of GW's inability to put enough options in the box.
I now return you to this annoying "competitive vs casual" debate that seems to be infecting dakka.
Edit: B&C poster says that there is NO stratagem for Accursed Weapons.
I hope no one put effort into giving all their Terminators chain axes and combi plasmas like I did. Of course, me putting time and effort into my models makes me a WAAC monster.
Appended the lot in a spoiler for continuity, but let's just handle this:
I do feel myself to be better than people who feel they are the arbitrator of nebulous lore and are consistently dishonest. Casual at all costs is not 'causal' - causal at all costs is a specific attitude and mindset.
An indicator of the dishonest involved in it is this;
"Should people be expected to build units one specific way and spam to have fair games? Also no."
At no point have I argued this.
You play the game primarily detached from fluff to try and win. You built your Terminators with the "optimal loadout". You're upset at losing this as the proposed new rules are less effective. You blame this on "CAAC" mentality.
You're literally annoyed that you cannot spam the optimal build as to gain advantages over others. The exact thing you claimed you didn't argue for, but are more than happy to a use and manipulate. I'm not being dishonest here, you're just lacking a lot of self awareness.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/01 18:32:09
Accursed Weapons are for Chosen and Terminators only. Additionally: power fists and chainfists are NOT Accursed Weapons, and retain their individual rules.
Okay, that sounds less crazy. But if they're going to combine some weapons, I still feel they would do it across the board, or at least for the whole army. It is weird and confusing if some units have separate rules for their power swords and axes and some don't. Makes mockery of WYSIWYG, really.
Accursed Weapons are for Chosen and Terminators only. Additionally: power fists and chainfists are NOT Accursed Weapons, and retain their individual rules.
Okay, that sounds less crazy. But if they're going to combine some weapons, I still feel they would do it across the board, or at least for the whole army. It is weird and confusing if some units have separate rules for their power swords and axes and some don't. Makes mockery of WYSIWYG, really.
It's a throw back to 3rd and I'm OK with it tbh for the most part, I think I could even get behind some magical profiles for havocs to get round the mixed sprues.
blood reaper wrote: I hope no one put effort into giving all their Terminators chain axes and combi plasmas like I did. Of course, me putting time and effort into my models makes me a WAAC monster.
Newsflash, meta chasing is called that because it's something you have to do perpetually, you don't catch the meta and then play the same OP gak forever.
All chain axes was literally the base load of Chaos Terminators. All power weapons has been an option for Terminators since 3rd edition. All combi-weapons has also been the same.
A change in the meta would not bother me; the models would be valid. If plasma guns became junk, so what? The models would still be usable. They would still be legal. I could still use them in the game The problem is the models are no longer valid, and can't be used in game.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/02/01 18:47:26
The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.
I just dislike casuals scrub mentality mindset (this mindset is indicated by the fact 'WAAC' has changed from 'outright cheating and lying' to 'bringing a good list').
This bit is the issue people are having, you can word it a million ways, none of which carry any connotations, but you're projecting as being better than a hypothetical group based on your choice of wording.
Should people with mishmash unit loadouts expect to win competitive games? No. Should people be expected to build units one specific way and spam to have fair games? Also no.
WAAC isn't just having a good list, it's the douchey attitude associated with it.
I do feel myself to be better than people who feel they are the arbitrator of nebulous lore and are consistently dishonest. Casual at all costs is not 'causal' - causal at all costs is a specific attitude and mindset.
An indicator of the dishonest involved in it is this;
"Should people be expected to build units one specific way and spam to have fair games? Also no."
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a Reaper Autocannon or heavy flamer
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for an additional Accursed Weapon
3 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a power fist
1 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a chainfist
2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-flamer
2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-melta
1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a combi-plasma
I feel dirty just typing that. 26 years of CSM rules just sacrificed on the alter of GW's inability to put enough options in the box.
I now return you to this annoying "competitive vs casual" debate that seems to be infecting dakka.
Edit: B&C poster says that there is NO stratagem for Accursed Weapons.
I hope no one put effort into giving all their Terminators chain axes and combi plasmas like I did. Of course, me putting time and effort into my models makes me a WAAC monster.
Appended the lot in a spoiler for continuity, but let's just handle this:
I do feel myself to be better than people who feel they are the arbitrator of nebulous lore and are consistently dishonest. Casual at all costs is not 'causal' - causal at all costs is a specific attitude and mindset.
An indicator of the dishonest involved in it is this;
"Should people be expected to build units one specific way and spam to have fair games? Also no."
At no point have I argued this.
You play the game primarily detached from fluff to try and win. You built your Terminators with the "optimal loadout". You're upset at losing this as the proposed new rules are less effective. You blame this on "CAAC" mentality.
You're literally annoyed that you cannot spam the optimal build as to gain advantages over others. The exact thing you claimed you didn't argue for, but are more than happy to a use and manipulate. I'm not being dishonest here, you're just lacking a lot of self awareness.
My upset is that the models aren't valid anymore.
If they weren't effective, then it'd be a mistake I'm willing to concede and I wouldn't care too much. In fact I wouldn't mind at all, because ultimately I could still use the (I still use my Chaos Space Marine units even if they have suboptimal builds, because the models are still legal).
The problem is I literally can't use the squad as is.
As I stated before when I explained how I described myself as a player, I do not think, casual or competitive, figures should become illegal. Under any circumstances.
(For the record; I have numerous models that are no longer very competitive, and I still use them.)
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2022/02/01 19:00:36
The biggest indicator someone is a loser is them complaining about 3d printers or piracy.
Crimson wrote: What was the profile of the accursed weapons? I think it was posted, but I can't find it now...
I believe it was S+1 AP-3 D1 +1 attack
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
Crimson wrote: What was the profile of the accursed weapons? I think it was posted, but I can't find it now...
S+1, AP-3, D1, +1 attack. Agreed it's going to be weird if this only applies to Chosen and Terminators. Wouldn't put it past them to do similar to Aspiring Champions in the other squad types if this is true.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/01 18:57:36
I don't hate the idea of "accursed weapons" being a catch-all mix of different weapon types given a common profile for ease of gameplay. In fact I rather love it.
What I hate though is that this wasn't done for plague marines, black templar sword brethren, or a number of other units that have gross datasheets as a result of the obscene number of different weapons they can be equipped with in very specific quantities. While it makes for ugly datasheets, it does allow those armies a degree of greater flexibility/optimization/capability by allowing players to pick the weapon mixes they want that are conducive to their armies needs, instead of sticking most of the squad with a genericized weapon that leaves them no room to efficiently answer certain specific threats.
What I also hate is that I'm not convinced that this decision will stick - I fully expect that a lot of us are going to build Chosen and Terminator squads based on the Accursed weapon paradigm, only for GW to pull a fast one on us and go back to a pure WYSIWYG approach in their next codex 2-3 years from now which will invalidate our squads and force us to buy and build additional kits to field decent squads again.
It would be nice if GW would do some confidence building and remediate things like plague marine, sword brethren, etc. profiles via a balance dataslate so that these units follow a similar paradigm, so that we know that this is the approach of the future and not just another one-off thing that they are going to hit CSM with and then abandon, shortchanging CSM players from being able to build units with the same flexibility as those of other factions.
CoALabaer wrote: Wargamers hate two things: the state of the game and change.
So is a lightning claw now classed as an accursed weapon, do we think? Or are they gone from the CSM terminators now? Would be properly miffed if the latter, I'm literally just finishing painting my unit that I built back in 6th edition - 2 of the guys have lightning claws...
It would be nice if GW would do some confidence building and remediate things like plague marine, sword brethren, etc. profiles via a balance dataslate so that these units follow a similar paradigm, so that we know that this is the approach of the future and not just another one-off thing that they are going to hit CSM with and then abandon, shortchanging CSM players from being able to build units with the same flexibility as those of other factions.
I mean regarding longevity, it wouldn't matter either way.
10th Edition is probably a year away and every edition has the very real possibility that, assuming GW doesn't do another 8E reset, they can still suddenly change their mind and reverse course on some change the had doubled down on only months prior.
And I know GW works far in advance but I somewhat wonder if Accursed Weapons we're their kneejerk reaction to the intense community negativity around the 9E DG 'dex and we're only suddenly feeling the effect now.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/02/01 19:26:51
Crispy78 wrote: So is a lightning claw now classed as an accursed weapon, do we think? Or are they gone from the CSM terminators now? Would be properly miffed if the latter, I'm literally just finishing painting my unit that I built back in 6th edition - 2 of the guys have lightning claws...
Sadly, that there is an option for a model to exchange the Combi-bolter for a 2nd Accursed Weapon suggests that the Claws are Accursed Weapons, too.
You know you're really doing something when you can make strangers hate you over the Internet. - Mauleed
Just remember folks. Panic. Panic all the time. It's the only way to survive, other than just being mindful, of course-but geez, that's so friggin' boring. - Aegis Grimm
Hallowed is the All Pie The Before Times: A Place That Celebrates The World That Was
