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 blood reaper wrote:


My upset is that the models aren't valid anymore.

The problem is I literally can't use the squad as is.

As I stated before when I explained how I described myself as a player, I do not think, casual or competitive, figures should become illegal. Under any circumstances.

(For the record; I have numerous models that are no longer very competitive, and I still use them.)

You are correct that you cannot use the squad as is anymore, but there is no merit behind the claim that the models aren't valid any more. The model load out still seems to work fine as an accursed weapon plus combination weapon. You just can't take entire units of identical load outs now. The unit compisition is invalid now, but it doesn't affect the models themselves.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:


My upset is that the models aren't valid anymore.

The problem is I literally can't use the squad as is.

As I stated before when I explained how I described myself as a player, I do not think, casual or competitive, figures should become illegal. Under any circumstances.

(For the record; I have numerous models that are no longer very competitive, and I still use them.)

You are correct that you cannot use the squad as is anymore, but there is no merit behind the claim that the models aren't valid any more. The model load out still seems to work fine as an accursed weapon plus combination weapon. You just can't take entire units of identical load outs now. The unit compisition is invalid now, but it doesn't affect the models themselves.

"Yes, the models aren't invalid - if you just buy more models." I would have to buy *five boxes* of Terminators to still be able to make use of all those figures, which to me seems a bit absurd. It would also be very expensive.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Terminator loadout leaks from B&C:

Basic loadout: Combi-Bolters + Accursed Weapons

For every 5 models:

1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a Reaper Autocannon or heavy flamer

1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for an additional Accursed Weapon

3 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a power fist

1 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a chainfist

2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-flamer

2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-melta

1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a combi-plasma

I feel dirty just typing that. 26 years of CSM rules just sacrificed on the alter of GW's inability to put enough options in the box.

I now return you to this annoying "competitive vs casual" debate that seems to be infecting dakka.

Edit: B&C poster says that there is NO stratagem for Accursed Weapons.

Thanks ! Well, so much for simplifying load-outs I guess ?

By the way, I try to systematically add new infos to the original post. If you are searching for something, chances are it's in there.

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Terminator loadout leaks from B&C:

Basic loadout: Combi-Bolters + Accursed Weapons

For every 5 models:

1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a Reaper Autocannon or heavy flamer

1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for an additional Accursed Weapon

3 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a power fist

1 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a chainfist

2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-flamer

2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-melta

1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a combi-plasma

I feel dirty just typing that. 26 years of CSM rules just sacrificed on the alter of GW's inability to put enough options in the box.

I now return you to this annoying "competitive vs casual" debate that seems to be infecting dakka.

Edit: B&C poster says that there is NO stratagem for Accursed Weapons.

Thanks ! Well, so much for simplifying load-outs I guess ?

By the way, I try to systematically add new infos to the original post. If you are searching for something, chances are it's in there.

No problem. I'm pretty invested in this having played CSM for 20 years with my only other army being my now Legends R&H. And yeah, Terminators are getting hit with a double whammy if this is true: consolidated profiles and jigsaw "you get what's in the kit" rules. The loadout restrictions definitely hurt the worst. Being able to specialize better has always been a thing for Chaos Terminators compared to their loyalist counterparts. We can still get more combi-weapons than them, but those melee weapon restrictions? One chainfist? Really?

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

Spoiler:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Terminator loadout leaks from B&C:

Basic loadout: Combi-Bolters + Accursed Weapons

For every 5 models:

1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a Reaper Autocannon or heavy flamer

1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for an additional Accursed Weapon

3 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a power fist

1 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a chainfist

2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-flamer

2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-melta

1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a combi-plasma

I feel dirty just typing that. 26 years of CSM rules just sacrificed on the alter of GW's inability to put enough options in the box.

I now return you to this annoying "competitive vs casual" debate that seems to be infecting dakka.

Edit: B&C poster says that there is NO stratagem for Accursed Weapons.

Thanks ! Well, so much for simplifying load-outs I guess ?

By the way, I try to systematically add new infos to the original post. If you are searching for something, chances are it's in there.

No problem. I'm pretty invested in this having played CSM for 20 years with my only other army being my now Legends R&H. And yeah, Terminators are getting hit with a double whammy if this is true: consolidated profiles and jigsaw "you get what's in the kit" rules. The loadout restrictions definitely hurt the worst. Being able to specialize better has always been a thing for Chaos Terminators compared to their loyalist counterparts. We can still get more combi-weapons than them, but those melee weapon restrictions? One chainfist? Really?

I do appreciate your work in bringing the rumors over from B+C, but gosh every new rumor about these loadouts is worse than the last.

I don't want to get into the argument of WAAC vs CAAC because it's pedantic and pointless. People play their game the way they want to play it.

A WAAC player will have all their terminators loaded out with powerfists and combi-plasmas because that's the most cost effective way of bringing them to the table.
A CAAC player will have all their terminators loaded out with powerfists and combi-plasmas because they like the way that a uniform squad looks when they put it on the table.
A middle-ground player will have all their terminators loaded out with powerfists and combi-plasmas because they like the combination of effectiveness and ease of play.

All are valid ways of loading out their terminators and all can be rightfully upset that the money they spent in kitting out their terminators now feels wasted, that they have to shelve most of those models and/or buy a new set to fit these new rules, the only sense of which comes from the fact that there *are not enough options in the box* to kit out your models like this any more.

There's two sides to this coin. One, rising kit prices makes it more and more difficult to get the bits. GW also doesn't want people buying from 3rd party bits sellers (there's a legality involving it being GW product but bits sellers not posting the caveat that these are not for kids or something like that and therefore GW could still legally be on the hook despite a 3rd party selling the product or something idk). They also don't want people complaining about having to buy multiple boxes of a kit to complete a loadout.

Remember the situation with the Havocs and the Reaper Chaincannon? On the one hand, GW should have added at least one more reaper chaincannon into the kit (or, stunningly, maybe not include that weapon at all and save the sprue space for another option). On the other hand, people were LIVID that you'd have to buy 4 boxes of Havocs to complete a squad of 4 Reaper Chaincannons.Instead of simply adding more to the kit (as by this point these kits have already been designed and printed for the past few years), they tailor the rules to try to make everyone happy and don't make anyone happy.

As it is, glad I didn't buy any terminators and probably won't be touching chosen. I don't want to build a loadout only to get burned by GW when the second 9th ed codex comes out that finally gives Chaos Marines the same t5 that space marines inevitably get.


Edit:

The benefit, after thinking and chatting a bit more on this, is that you can make the squad look however the feth you want and the rules for most of the weapons will still be the same. A squad all with chainswords will be just as potent and competitively viable as a squad with all power swords, since the profiles are the same. Want to make each guy individual and stand out? Fantastic, go for it.

Also consider the benefit to new players. So many times you see "What's the best loadout for X or Y?" And instead of going through all of the mathhammer, you can simply tell them "Make your dudes however you think is coolest, all the weapons use the same profile, so they can look however you want. The only different one is the power fist, which is slower but hits harder." Much easier for people to digest.

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Terminator loadout leaks from B&C:

Basic loadout: Combi-Bolters + Accursed Weapons

For every 5 models:

1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a Reaper Autocannon or heavy flamer

1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for an additional Accursed Weapon

3 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a power fist

1 may exchange their Accursed Weapon for a chainfist

2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-flamer

2 may exchange their Combi-Bolters for a combi-melta

1 may exchange their Combi-Bolter for a combi-plasma

I feel dirty just typing that. 26 years of CSM rules just sacrificed on the alter of GW's inability to put enough options in the box.

I now return you to this annoying "competitive vs casual" debate that seems to be infecting dakka.

Edit: B&C poster says that there is NO stratagem for Accursed Weapons.

Thanks ! Well, so much for simplifying load-outs I guess ?

By the way, I try to systematically add new infos to the original post. If you are searching for something, chances are it's in there.

They kind of simplified a lot of the melee weapons like they have been doing already, but as I suggested before they will not touch ranged profiles.

What I hate though is that this wasn't done for plague marines, black templar sword brethren, or a number of other units that have gross datasheets as a result of the obscene number of different weapons they can be equipped with in very specific quantities. While it makes for ugly datasheets, it does allow those armies a degree of greater flexibility/optimization/capability by allowing players to pick the weapon mixes they want that are conducive to their armies needs, instead of sticking most of the squad with a genericized weapon that leaves them no room to efficiently answer certain specific threats.

As someone who has played Death Guard almost exclusively in 9th I would have loooved for them to consolidate the weapons for Plague Marines and Blightlords. Would have made my life much simpler and cheaper. Can't wait for an edition refresh and all the combi-weapons to be the hot gak. I'll end up with 100 Blightlords in a few years time(currently at 40).

On the upside they did consolidate melee weapons for Hybrids and Metamorphs which made life better. I am actually wondering if they are testing the waters with melee weapon consolidation in 9th since it appears so random.

The benefit, after thinking and chatting a bit more on this, is that you can make the squad look however the feth you want and the rules for most of the weapons will still be the same. A squad all with chainswords will be just as potent and competitively viable as a squad with all power swords, since the profiles are the same. Want to make each guy individual and stand out? Fantastic, go for it.

Also consider the benefit to new players. So many times you see "What's the best loadout for X or Y?" And instead of going through all of the mathhammer, you can simply tell them "Make your dudes however you think is coolest, all the weapons use the same profile, so they can look however you want. The only different one is the power fist, which is slower but hits harder." Much easier for people to digest.

Kind of what I've been saying earlier. I feel unified weapon profiles just opens the design floor for people who want to kitbash and personalize their minis to the max.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Accursed Weapons are for Chosen and Terminators only. Additionally: power fists and chainfists are NOT Accursed Weapons, and retain their individual rules.

So, this squad's Power Sword is a Power Sword, but this squad's Power Sword is an Accursed Weapons. And this squad's Lightning Claws are Lightning Claws, but this squad's Lightning Claws are Accursed Weapons.

Sure. Makes total (GW) sense.



I just cannot believe that this is their "solution" to sprue-constrained weapon options. Boggles the mind...

It is unfortunate that making the game easier for new players has come at the consequence of harming older players.

I would not have minded the consolidation of power swords and chain axes, since those weapons aren't really meaningfully different at this stage (iirc, they aren't different at all actually). Lightning claws? A bit less, but ultimately, the issue is that you have consolidated things (good) while taking other things away. New players 'benefit' exponentially at the cost of other players.

I would also not have had issues with unified weapon options. The game would become a lot more bland, but to be quite honest, I would not have cared that much. It is the invalidity of the miniatures which annoys me.

There were other ways to fix this; they would've taken a lot more effort and forced a general revision of how sprues are made. GW took an easy route, and the easy route comes at the expense of many people. I am completely opposed to options becoming invalid, and it is annoying this happened.

Incidentally the squad can't actually be modelled with everything in the box with no restrictions - something people should actually remember. You can't take both a Reaper Auto Cannon and Heavy Flamer.

 blood reaper wrote:
It is unfortunate that making the game easier for new players has come at the consequence of harming older players.

I'm not sure that this is even easier for new players. It is pretty confusing if similar looking weapon has different rules depending on what squad has it.

Some consolidation of weapon profiles makes sense, but it should happen in coherent and holistic manner.

 Crimson wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
It is unfortunate that making the game easier for new players has come at the consequence of harming older players.

I'm not sure that this is even easier for new players. It is pretty confusing if similar looking weapon has different rules depending on what squad has it.

Some consolidation of weapon profiles makes sense, but it should happen in coherent and holistic manner.

I am basically playing devils advocate when I say "Sure, it's easier for new players" because I can't be bothered arguing that point.

Invalidates most of my Terminators as well.

Only thing I don't lose out on are Combi-Plasmas because, well, I don't have any! The Terminators I have never came with them.

 blood reaper wrote:

There were other ways to fix this; they would've taken a lot more effort and forced a general revision of how sprues are made. GW took an easy route, and the easy route comes at the expense of many people. I am completely opposed to options becoming invalid, and it is annoying this happened.

Isn't this Termie kit only a few years old, deep into the "no model no rules" era, and more or less the same content as the previous one? GW must not perceive this to be a problem or they would have fixed it then.

 lord_blackfang wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

There were other ways to fix this; they would've taken a lot more effort and forced a general revision of how sprues are made. GW took an easy route, and the easy route comes at the expense of many people. I am completely opposed to options becoming invalid, and it is annoying this happened.

Isn't this Termie kit only a few years old, deep into the "no model no rules" era, and more or less the same content as the previous one? GW must not perceive this to be a problem or they would have fixed it then.

Well sprues are usually made several years ahead of time, but its clear something prompted the change. Needless to say, GW doesn't see many things as issues, which is one of the biggest issues with GW.

In second edition, you could give all your blood claws a power fist and a chainsword, or pretty much anything else you wanted. It looked great. Some say the Blood Claw Sergeant was the best mini of his generation, and I can't officially disagree. They say he could parry attacks with his cheap chainsword and smash face with the fist. Didn't even attack last. I think Death Company were in a similar position. It looked amazing, that's all I cared about. Then, apparently in the next edition there was a big shakeup, and options were drastically limited? And rules were flipped all around? My point being, I'm sure that generated a lot of spilled ink and bitter tears for you guys back then too. And life carried on as usual for the rest of us : D

Does anyone remember that these are rumours and not facts? Why are you all getting so massively bent out of shape acting like these are 100% confirmed Codex rules. Be concerned but it's not like the world is ending, jeez.

JWBS wrote:
In second edition, you could give all your blood claws a power fist and a chainsword, or pretty much anything else you wanted. It looked great. Some say the Blood Claw Sergeant was the best mini of his generation, and I can't officially disagree. They say he could parry attacks with his cheap chainsword and smash face with the fist. Didn't even attack last. I think Death Company were in a similar position. It looked amazing, that's all I cared about. Then, apparently in the next edition there was a big shakeup, and options were drastically limited? And rules were flipped all around? My point being, I'm sure that generated a lot of spilled ink and bitter tears for you guys back then too. And life carried on as usual for the rest of us : D

I don't understand what the point is here.

"A bad change happened, but this happened previously ... so yeah?"

imo it's super cool people have this insane notion that if you care about or get upset about things (or display any emotion that isn't just CONSOOM more), you are in the wrong.

I'm just blown away at the idea that Chaos are getting Jervis'd. Again.

It's enough to make me not even care about the new 'Nid book.

 Gert wrote:
Does anyone remember that these are rumours and not facts? Why are you all getting so massively bent out of shape acting like these are 100% confirmed Codex rules. Be concerned but it's not like the world is ending, jeez.

And you've arrived to try and shut down yet another conversation. Shocker.

How dare we discuss rumours in a News & Rumours sub-forum, right?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gert wrote:
Does anyone remember that these are rumours and not facts? Why are you all getting so massively bent out of shape acting like these are 100% confirmed Codex rules. Be concerned but it's not like the world is ending, jeez.

And you've arrived to try and shut down yet another conversation. Shocker.

How dare we discuss rumours in a News & Rumours sub-forum, right?

A critical sentiment was detected and squad cars were dispatched to ensure the positivity ratio of the forum was maintained.

 blood reaper wrote:

I don't understand what the point is here.

"A bad change happened, but this happened previously ... so yeah?"

imo it's super cool people have this insane notion that if you care about or get upset about things (or display any emotion that isn't just CONSOOM more), you are in the wrong.

My point was just that hoze were probably mad back then too, and it didn't ultimately amount to a gnat's nut in the grand scheme of things. Wasn't directed at you specifically btw.

JWBS wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

I don't understand what the point is here.

"A bad change happened, but this happened previously ... so yeah?"

imo it's super cool people have this insane notion that if you care about or get upset about things (or display any emotion that isn't just CONSOOM more), you are in the wrong.

My point was just that hoze were probably mad back then too, and it didn't ultimately amount to a gnat's nut in the grand scheme of things. Wasn't directed at you specifically btw.

So what, because people being annoyed didn't change anything means people shouldn't be annoyed? What exactly is your point? It's wrong to be annoyed?

There's a bizarre "cutting off your own nose to spite your face" sentiment in the 40k community that never ceases to amaze me.

I think perhaps you can't see the forest for the trees. The root of suffering is attachment, as a wise man once said. Life is a river always flowing. Do not hold onto things.

JWBS wrote:
I think perhaps you can't see the forest for the trees. The root of suffering is attachment, as a wise man once said. Life is a river always flowing. Do not hold onto things.

The snide nature of this post is so thick you could spread it on toast.

JWBS wrote:
The root of suffering is attachment, as a wise man once said.

The root of suffering, in this instance, is GW. There is simply no reason for this change outside of their asinine no model/no rule stance having a head-on collision with their penchant for changing horses mid-race and having a paradigm shift in how they do rules.

I thought it'd happen with the 'Nid 'Dex, but apparently it's Chaos players who get to bend over.


(Again, operating under the core assumption that all of this is true)

JWBS wrote:
Not even remotely snide. If you want to see it as an attack then that's on you, frankly I don't care ; )

Because it is an attack. You're being snide. I'm annoyed that I have effectively wasted a bunch of money on models which I can't really use now. It's a problem I'm annoyed because what? I'm attached to the idea of not losing money?

The Buddha also taught to measure attachments, since they could not be removed. You cannot just 'assert' mental states.

JWBS wrote:
I think perhaps you can't see the forest for the trees. The root of suffering is attachment, as a wise man once said. Life is a river always flowing. Do not hold onto things.

Why even play 40k in the first place then.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

JWBS wrote:
I think perhaps you can't see the forest for the trees. The root of suffering is attachment, as a wise man once said. Life is a river always flowing. Do not hold onto things.

Why even play 40k in the first place then.

Life is like a river; sometimes people dump a lot of sewage into it. I forgot where I was going with this metaphor.

You also never know what you're going to get.

 blood reaper wrote:
A critical sentiment was detected and squad cars were dispatched to ensure the positivity ratio of the forum was maintained.

It's like 4 pages of people getting absolutely raging about a rumour and it's turned into a gak flinging fest. A solid chunk of the discussion isn't actually about the rumour, it's just insulting each other because you don't agree.

JWBS wrote:
You also never know what you're going to get.

Not additional combi-weapons, that's for certain.

 blood reaper wrote:

JWBS wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

I don't understand what the point is here.

"A bad change happened, but this happened previously ... so yeah?"

imo it's super cool people have this insane notion that if you care about or get upset about things (or display any emotion that isn't just CONSOOM more), you are in the wrong.

My point was just that hoze were probably mad back then too, and it didn't ultimately amount to a gnat's nut in the grand scheme of things. Wasn't directed at you specifically btw.

So what, because people being annoyed didn't change anything means people shouldn't be annoyed? What exactly is your point? It's wrong to be annoyed?

There's a bizarre "cutting off your own nose to spite your face" sentiment in the 40k community that never ceases to amaze me.

I mean, people feel that way about a lot of things. Things magnitudes more important then silly little plastic soldiers. And to be clear, I also think it's strange. But it's also easier to relativize and try to downplay things that displease you or others. If everything is just a drop of water in the sea, there's no reason to get worked up.

But I think it's important to criticize what you can and make it known. I mean, if people never complained about their hobbies we wouldn't have Pathfinder now !