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I should probably clarify that I don't give a flying toss about this controversy. I'm not a gamer. If the models were terrible? Or if they were ridiculously overpriced, or some other shittery had occoured? Yes I'd be interested. The only reason I entered the fray was because all these complex, micro managed wargear options reminded me of my awesome first incarnation Blood Claws and DC (and all the other vanilla jump pack assault marines I painted, which you could also give six hand flamers, two power swords, one power axe and a plasma pistol per squad, if you liked the idea of doing that), and it amused me to think of it.

 DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

JWBS wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

I don't understand what the point is here.

"A bad change happened, but this happened previously ... so yeah?"

imo it's super cool people have this insane notion that if you care about or get upset about things (or display any emotion that isn't just CONSOOM more), you are in the wrong.

My point was just that hoze were probably mad back then too, and it didn't ultimately amount to a gnat's nut in the grand scheme of things. Wasn't directed at you specifically btw.

So what, because people being annoyed didn't change anything means people shouldn't be annoyed? What exactly is your point? It's wrong to be annoyed?

There's a bizarre "cutting off your own nose to spite your face" sentiment in the 40k community that never ceases to amaze me.

I mean, people feel that way about a lot of things. Things magnitudes more important then silly little plastic soldiers. And to be clear, I also think it's strange. But it's also easier to relativize and try to downplay things that displease you or others. If everything is just a drop of water in the sea, there's no reason to get worked up.

But I think it's important to criticize what you can and make it known. I mean, if people never complained about their hobbies we wouldn't have Pathfinder now !

Yeah people do, and in this case I feel annoyed with this. I also feel annoyed with climate change, racism, etc. I think you are allowed to be annoyed with things. It's true I can relativize this, but at the end of the day I wargame weekly, I pour a lot of time and effort into it, and I've been doing so for well over 10 years now. The change annoys me. Now people can say "It's wrong to get upset", well I'm sorry. I'm invested. Not just emotionally either; financially too!

 Gert wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
A critical sentiment was detected and squad cars were dispatched to ensure the positivity ratio of the forum was maintained.

It's like 4 pages of people getting absolutely raging about a rumour and it's turned into a gak flinging fest. A solid chunk of the discussion isn't actually about the rumour, it's just insulting each other because you don't agree.

Yep. That sounds like Dakka business as usual to me.

 blood reaper wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

JWBS wrote:
I think perhaps you can't see the forest for the trees. The root of suffering is attachment, as a wise man once said. Life is a river always flowing. Do not hold onto things.

Why even play 40k in the first place then.

Life is like a river; sometimes people dump a lot of sewage into it. I forgot where I was going with this metaphor.

A wise man once said "A flute with no holes is not a flute and a doughnut with no hole is a Danish."

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Gert wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
A critical sentiment was detected and squad cars were dispatched to ensure the positivity ratio of the forum was maintained.

It's like 4 pages of people getting absolutely raging about a rumour and it's turned into a gak flinging fest. A solid chunk of the discussion isn't actually about the rumour, it's just insulting each other because you don't agree.

Yep. That sounds like Dakka business as usual to me.

Precisely why i love this place.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Gert wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
A critical sentiment was detected and squad cars were dispatched to ensure the positivity ratio of the forum was maintained.

It's like 4 pages of people getting absolutely raging about a rumour and it's turned into a gak flinging fest. A solid chunk of the discussion isn't actually about the rumour, it's just insulting each other because you don't agree.

Yep. That sounds like Dakka business as usual to me.

Precisely why i love this place.

If this was reddit I'd apply a !remind me for a month, and when the codex comes out and has these rules confirmed, I'd drop a big stinking wet "I told you so", validating all of our rage.

And if it ends up being not confirmed, I'll just move on to find the next thing to have a huge rage over and ignore your own "I told you so".

A big part of this hobby is complaining. It was born in the UK after all.

 blood reaper wrote:

Yeah people do, and in this case I feel annoyed with this. I also feel annoyed with climate change, racism, etc. I think you are allowed to be annoyed with things. It's true I can relativize this, but at the end of the day I wargame weekly, I pour a lot of time and effort into it, and I've been doing so for well over 10 years now. The change annoys me. Now people can say "It's wrong to get upset", well I'm sorry. I'm invested. Not just emotionally either; financially too!

I feel like there was an issue with the way I worded things because I couldn't agree more with you

Keep calm and carry on complaining.

JWBS wrote:
I should probably clarify that I don't give a flying toss about this controversy. I'm not a gamer. If the models were terrible? Or if they were ridiculously overpriced, or some other shittery had occoured? Yes I'd be interested. The only reason I entered the fray was because all these complex, micro managed wargear options reminded me of my awesome first incarnation Blood Claws and DC (and all the other vanilla jump pack assault marines I painted, which you could also give six hand flamers, two power swords, one power axe and a plasma pistol per squad, if you liked the idea of doing that), and it amused me to think of it.

”It doesn’t affect me, therefore there’s no point in complaining about it,” is not an uncommon take, but it ain’t a good one.

drbored wrote:
And if it ends up being not confirmed, I'll just move on to find the next thing to have a huge rage over and ignore your own "I told you so".

Us being wrong about this is a good thing.

But I doubt we will be.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

drbored wrote:
And if it ends up being not confirmed, I'll just move on to find the next thing to have a huge rage over and ignore your own "I told you so".

Us being wrong about this is a good thing.

But I doubt we will be.

It is looking more likely the more we see. Though, as aggravating as the changes to Terminators are, I still find the removal of Berserkers, Plague Marines, and Rubrics more troubling and circumspect. And I'd still like to get an explanation of what exactly "Unmarked units gain some support from custom traits" means.

Wow... I'd forgotten about the removal of Cult Troops.

Man... it's never good to be a Chaos player. Serves us right for choosing an NPC race I 'spose.

 JNAProductions wrote:

JWBS wrote:
I should probably clarify that I don't give a flying toss about this controversy. I'm not a gamer. If the models were terrible? Or if they were ridiculously overpriced, or some other shittery had occoured? Yes I'd be interested. The only reason I entered the fray was because all these complex, micro managed wargear options reminded me of my awesome first incarnation Blood Claws and DC (and all the other vanilla jump pack assault marines I painted, which you could also give six hand flamers, two power swords, one power axe and a plasma pistol per squad, if you liked the idea of doing that), and it amused me to think of it.

”It doesn’t affect me, therefore there’s no point in complaining about it,” is not an uncommon take, but it ain’t a good one.

Sorry, I forgot to add my usual disclaimer that these are my own personal views and that I do, in fact, understand that my own personal views are indeed my own personal views and that other views potentially exist and that these views may be just as valid, or more so, than my own (I can't believe I keep neglecting to do this! I think it's because it's so blindingly obvious that I just forget it could ever need to be said. Consider me adequately chastised).

Except that's not what JNA just said...

That was my response to him insinuating that I think (let alone said, at any point) ”It doesn’t affect me, therefore there’s no point in complaining about it."

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Wow... I'd forgotten about the removal of Cult Troops.

Man... it's never good to be a Chaos player. Serves us right for choosing an NPC race I 'spose.

We've been paying the price for the 3.5 codex ever since we got to 5th edition. Four editions in a row of GW not knowing what to do with us, not following through on completing a line of models, giving us half-baked rules, trimming us down, bloating us up, only to sweep the rug out with edition changes while our old models get older and our new models remove beloved options.

If the rumors of all of this stuff are true, there will be some silver lining. The legion traits are the best I've seen in a very long time. Marks coming back, Icons becoming better, getting a superdoctrine, getting thematic stratagems across the board... there's some good stuff in there. Getting a new warpsmith and getting Chosen models AT ALL is a positive for collectors and painters, and if the rest of the rumors are true and we FINALLY get a box of cultists that's not just 5 push-fit cultists in a random assortment of weapons, that'll be a huge deal. Similarly, new Possessed and Chaos Bikers would go a long way to knocking away a lot of the oldest kits in the line, and we can only pray that they don't do to Chaos bikers what they did to Primaris bikers.

It's not rocket science. Chaos isn't Eldar. There aren't 10 different aspect warriors to update. There's literally 2 cult troops, bikes, possessed, and cultists. The rest of the range is pretty solid, setting aside the age of anything with a rhino-chassis, and the last update getting new CSM, some new leaders, Havocs, and a couple other things was great.

The issue is the follow-through. We still don't have a separate box of Obliterators, you can still only get them in the start collecting, and god forbid you want more than 2. We are still waiting on World Eaters and Emperor's Children, almost, what, 6 years after Magnus hit the scene and GW started down this path of giving us Chaos Primarchs and separating the god-aligned legions? It's a long time to wait. Hobbyists have passed on from this world in the time that it's taken GW to get to even this point. It's simultaneously infuriating and keeping me perpetually hopeful that I can continue living to see the day that we get a new Noise Marine kit, the major faction that got me into this emperor-forsaken hobby in the first place.

So, there's good and bad with all of it. I just wish GW would make up their mind on how they want to treat us. They keep painting Chaos Marines as these terrifying foes, raiding from a brand new tear in the galaxy to bring death and destruction across a beleaguered galaxy only to give Chaos Marines some seriously uninspired rules for some ancient kits. Are you going to keep the old space marine vehicles with spiky bits or are you going to change them? Are you going to give us the other god-aligned legions or not? Until some of these things are figured out and delivered, Chaos Marines will simply continue to feel half-baked.

So, there's good and bad with all of it. I just wish GW would make up their mind on how they want to treat us. They keep painting Chaos Marines as these terrifying foes, raiding from a brand new tear in the galaxy to bring death and destruction across a beleaguered galaxy only to give Chaos Marines some seriously uninspired rules for some ancient kits. Are you going to keep the old space marine vehicles with spiky bits or are you going to change them? Are you going to give us the other god-aligned legions or not? Until some of these things are figured out and delivered, Chaos Marines will simply continue to feel half-baked.

otoh, Legion Chaos marines literally used to all fall under the banner of "Chaos marines, but you get to choose the colour". IW were silver, BL were black, but they all had the same stuff. We have come some way since then, but no faction will ever rival loyalist Astartes for breadth and depth and that will absolutely never change.

JWBS wrote:

So, there's good and bad with all of it. I just wish GW would make up their mind on how they want to treat us. They keep painting Chaos Marines as these terrifying foes, raiding from a brand new tear in the galaxy to bring death and destruction across a beleaguered galaxy only to give Chaos Marines some seriously uninspired rules for some ancient kits. Are you going to keep the old space marine vehicles with spiky bits or are you going to change them? Are you going to give us the other god-aligned legions or not? Until some of these things are figured out and delivered, Chaos Marines will simply continue to feel half-baked.

otoh, Legion Chaos marines literally used to all fall under the banner of "Chaos marines, but you get to choose the colour". IW were silver, BL were black, but they all had the same stuff. We have come some way since then, but no faction will ever rival loyalist Astartes for breadth and depth and that will absolutely never change.

True, we've come a long way, but I wouldn't want Chaos Marines to become the same bloated mess that Space Marines are.

I'd be content with similar treatment to a codex like Tau just got (a rethinking of some of their core rules, how markerlights and overwatch works) or similar treatment to Drukhari (separate groupings of models that all come together in a 'however you want them' sort of fashion) or even like how Sisters of Battle went (a solid range of rules and units with quite good internal balance). Keep in mind that I'm talking about rules treatment here.

Instead, GW tries to tie us to a weird combination of the rules that Space Marines get, but where Space Marines and their various traits tend to be focused and fluffy, Chaos Marine traits are all over the place and disjointed, with GW never knowing how to combine us with the Daemons that we're supposed to be able to summon, or the difference between daemon engines and other vehicles, or making arbitrary separations on what gets legion traits and what doesn't. The only other time I've seen an issue like this was when Genestealer Cult couldn't get cult traits for their vehicles, but that was rectified.

So, it's just been a mess for a long time, and the start of it was 5th edition. Chaos Marine fans have just not been uniformly content with what we've gotten and there's no way that GW can make us all happy.

Like, for me, either go with the daemon engines or don't. Either make Dark Mechanicum and move all the crazy daemon engines over there and leave the Chaos Marines with the classic vehicles and options to ally with Dark Mech, or get rid of the classic space marine vehicles and create some new daemon engines that give us a new transportation option or something. This mix where the models don't even look like they're from the same range and the rules apply sometimes to one vehicle and sometimes to one daemon engine is not cutting it for me.

My worry/hope is that cult troops are being taken out as weapons/stats/skills are changing and they have to ignore what is in cult books.
They are going full seperation.

The accursed weapons are an example of this. Maybe they will also, like SMs discover rending ammunition for their bolters on standard troops.
Maybe these guys will have traits on all their vehicles!!!!

I say hope/fear because I think they need that separation otherwise hands are tied by the cult codex and improvements can't be made, hence the hope.
The fear is exact same thing, but means my DG are really going to be left behind by the creep.

Doohicky wrote:
My worry/hope is that cult troops are being taken out as weapons/stats/skills are changing and they have to ignore what is in cult books.
They are going full seperation.

The accursed weapons are an example of this. Maybe they will also, like SMs discover rending ammunition for their bolters on standard troops.
Maybe these guys will have traits on all their vehicles!!!!

I say hope/fear because I think they need that separation otherwise hands are tied by the cult codex and improvements can't be made, hence the hope.
The fear is exact same thing, but means my DG are really going to be left behind by the creep.

It would not surprise me if GW decided on full separation, because it feels like the kind of stupidity GW would engage in.

Incidentally it will reveal how lopsided and awkward the new codex will be. Imagine there being just one cult unit - it sounds so incredibly tacky and unfinished.

Of course, you can already play out the defences of this kind of thing, "Oh well, if you already have one unit of Rubricane, just buy another and an HQ. CONSOOM more!"

JWBS wrote:

So, there's good and bad with all of it. I just wish GW would make up their mind on how they want to treat us. They keep painting Chaos Marines as these terrifying foes, raiding from a brand new tear in the galaxy to bring death and destruction across a beleaguered galaxy only to give Chaos Marines some seriously uninspired rules for some ancient kits. Are you going to keep the old space marine vehicles with spiky bits or are you going to change them? Are you going to give us the other god-aligned legions or not? Until some of these things are figured out and delivered, Chaos Marines will simply continue to feel half-baked.

otoh, Legion Chaos marines literally used to all fall under the banner of "Chaos marines, but you get to choose the colour". IW were silver, BL were black, but they all had the same stuff. We have come some way since then, but no faction will ever rival loyalist Astartes for breadth and depth and that will absolutely never change.

Ok, you've established that you played 2nd and at some point stopped playing, and based on this statement I'm going to assume that you didn't play in late 3rd or 4th. Because if you had, you'd know that under the 3.5 Codex the Undivided Legions were definitely NOT just the same "but you get to choose the color". A Night Lords army was NOT the same as an Alpha Legion army, which was NOT the same as an Iron Warriors army, which was NOT the same as a Word Bearers army. They all played differently and though they used many of the same units they didn't take them in the same combinations or use them the same, and they DID have some unique units to themselves. The Legions have never had that much flavor and distinction since, and it was all achieved in a 80 page book. With codexes currently ballooning to 200+ page counts I think they could do it again if they just tried. The question is whether or not they will.

Riddle me this, Batman.

What is the probability that GW resists the urge to make Accursed Weapons kill their own bearers on a roll of 1?

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Riddle me this, Batman.

What is the probability that GW resists the urge to make Accursed Weapons kill their own bearers on a roll of 1?

That seems a bit harsh for a 'baby' Daemon Weapon. How about you just forfeit your attacks for that turn.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

drbored wrote:
And if it ends up being not confirmed, I'll just move on to find the next thing to have a huge rage over and ignore your own "I told you so".

Us being wrong about this is a good thing.

But I doubt we will be.

It is looking more likely the more we see. Though, as aggravating as the changes to Terminators are, I still find the removal of Berserkers, Plague Marines, and Rubrics more troubling and circumspect. And I'd still like to get an explanation of what exactly "Unmarked units gain some support from custom traits" means.

Could be that you can still put those units into the army, just that they are no longer part of the core codex. Having two separate datasheets for the same unit is just a source of controversy. A bit like how Nurgle Daemons are no longer in Death Guard or Brood Brother datasheets are no longer in GSC.

 Sersi wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Riddle me this, Batman.

What is the probability that GW resists the urge to make Accursed Weapons kill their own bearers on a roll of 1?

That seems a bit harsh for a 'baby' Daemon Weapon. How about you just forfeit your attacks for that turn.

It seems a bit stupid for an army to rely on a weapon for 10,000 years that fails to work 1/6th of the time. I mean chaos may equal randomness but it does not equal rampant stupidity.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

drbored wrote:
And if it ends up being not confirmed, I'll just move on to find the next thing to have a huge rage over and ignore your own "I told you so".

Us being wrong about this is a good thing.

But I doubt we will be.

It is looking more likely the more we see. Though, as aggravating as the changes to Terminators are, I still find the removal of Berserkers, Plague Marines, and Rubrics more troubling and circumspect. And I'd still like to get an explanation of what exactly "Unmarked units gain some support from custom traits" means.

Could be that you can still put those units into the army, just that they are no longer part of the core codex. Having two separate datasheets for the same unit is just a source of controversy. A bit like how Nurgle Daemons are no longer in Death Guard or Brood Brother datasheets are no longer in GSC.

That's pretty much how they work according to the leak. They're not in the codex, but you can take them, but they don't get Legion traits. They do get the "Army trait" though, again, if the leak is correct.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:

 Sersi wrote:

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
Riddle me this, Batman.

What is the probability that GW resists the urge to make Accursed Weapons kill their own bearers on a roll of 1?

That seems a bit harsh for a 'baby' Daemon Weapon. How about you just forfeit your attacks for that turn.

It seems a bit stupid for an army to rely on a weapon for 10,000 years that fails to work 1/6th of the time. I mean chaos may equal randomness but it does not equal rampant stupidity.

Looks at Plasma guns

Yeah, that's totally stupid, no army in 40k would ever possible rely on something like that for thousands of years.

Granted, I forgot about plasma guns. Game wise most people either use them with a reroll or, until recently only used them with positve to hit modifiers. However, I would still differentiate the Accursed weapon from a plasma weapon due to the fact that if your plasma gun doesn't work either you're dead or your at least out of immediate harm's way. With the accursed weapon if it doesn't work then your in melee with nothing but a large stick in your hands.

Do we know for sure the Chosen sprue doesn't have an option for a lightning claw arm+head action pose of a guy stabbing himself in the eye?

Here is the Datasheet from the Box. Would be a horrible bait and switch after this datasheet if they went with the accursed weapon non-sense.