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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Don't get me wrong - he's awesome, but I don't think he's the game breaker people make him out to be.

Two men stood in the jungle, and suddenly realised that a tiger was approaching them, hunger in its eyes. One of the men started putting on a pair of very advanced sneakers.

"Umm... you're not going to outrun the tiger with those!" said the first man.
"I know that. I just need to outrun you!" said the other.

To put it another way, Dooby needn't be a "game breaker". He just has to be good enough that taking any other option in the book (outside of what you have to take due to compulsory choices) isn't worthwhile. That's the danger with a character like him. That's what makes character ubiquitous, where people bring them to every game regardless.

Hell, in our games from 9th from two weeks ago, the guy playing Custodes, who has never played Custodes with us, and doesn't even own Trajann, still brought him using Counts As. That kind of ubiquity isn't good for the game, IMO.

Fair point though I think you have to build around him a bit to make it worth it.




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 xttz wrote:
KLOS:

Spoiler:

Also CSM get improved Vindicators and !!T9!! Land Raiders

Spoiler:

Wow...

Yea so Warpsmith, Landraider, and Vindicator lists are in my future.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Gert wrote:

Voss wrote:
godless possessed for everyone, then.

Clearly they didn't go to church enough. Trying to be all cool with their Daemonic possessions and skateboards.

*youth pastor voice* you know who else got mistreated by his dark master?

And that's why we have unions.

Like that land raider data sheet. It might actually be good. Also CSM getting a better land raider that imperial marines? Never thought I would see the day (remember when space marines one could carry 12 but CSM only 10 in 5th anyone?).

Voss wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Watch all of this very justified criticism have negligible effort on sales, thus allowing Geedubs to get away with this with literally no consequences

Sure. But there isn't any reason it would. There are reasons GW (and lots of other companies) don't have their own forums, and one of those is not having an officially sanctioned home for criticism.

Customer-on-the-street won't know much beyond '9th edition codex'

Its actually for marketing reasons, decentralization is better for e-word of mouth, much higher likelihood of someone wandering across the brand/setting/lore/minis etc. incidentally while searching for something else if the community is more widely spread out vs if its very heavily centralized into specific niche forum that only existing customers are going to access/visit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 xeen wrote:
Like that land raider data sheet. It might actually be good. Also CSM getting a better land raider that imperial marines? Never thought I would see the day (remember when space marines one could carry 12 but CSM only 10 in 5th anyone?).

Please, they are going to FAQ that/release Codex SM 2.0 quick enough that they will be the same stats.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Watch all of this very justified criticism have negligible effort on sales, thus allowing Geedubs to get away with this with literally no consequences

Some of this criticism is based on incomplete information, but okay.

"Bro look we haven't seen the full picture look come on everything looks like crap so far but it could be okay come on dudes."

 blood reaper wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Watch all of this very justified criticism have negligible effort on sales, thus allowing Geedubs to get away with this with literally no consequences

Some of this criticism is based on incomplete information, but okay.

"Bro look we haven't seen the full picture look come on everything looks like crap so far but it could be okay come on dudes."

"Nothing is fethed here, Dude. Come on, you're being very un-Dude. They'll FAQ it."

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Watch all of this very justified criticism have negligible effort on sales, thus allowing Geedubs to get away with this with literally no consequences

I think the problem is that a lot of the complaints are geared from people who have existing CSM armies - in some cases 20 year old CSM armies.

Whereas for someone thinking of starting today... much of this doesn't matter. Oh I can't have options X and Y on a Chaos Lord? Well, the Chaos Lord Model I can buy has a hammer and plasma pistol so... its fine? Raptor Sergeants can't have Lightning Claws? Well, I just won't build them that way. Possessed can't benefit from marks and icons? Well that's a bit lame - but if they don't, they just don't.

I mean I'm looking at the leaks and thinking there's a serviceable level of power. Its not Tyranids runaway broken (although certain information remain missing) - but its not in turn going to get the sweeping nerfs we expect Tyranids (and most of the newer books) to now get.

I don't get the comparison with Orks - because with that codex you could see about a third (or more) of the entries were dead on arrival.

T9 Land Raider. . . and the lascannons (they have another name in front of lascannon that I can't read because potato cam) are d6+2 damage.

I'm wondering if those lascannons are specific or something we'll see on more lascannons. . .

 blood reaper wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Watch all of this very justified criticism have negligible effort on sales, thus allowing Geedubs to get away with this with literally no consequences

Some of this criticism is based on incomplete information, but okay.

"Bro look we haven't seen the full picture look come on everything looks like crap so far but it could be okay come on dudes."

Okay, show me the full rules for Daemonkin and the full Possessed Datasheet.

I get being concerned that they may not get marks, but assuming they won't then getting mad at the assumption before you know for sure just seems, well, silly.

After five years of a mediocre codex going downhill, and 3 years of being totally obsolete and ignored, I can't wait to stop holding my breath and adjust to the new reality that once again chaos have a gak codex years late and a fortune short of expectations

I'm sure that the campaign supplement which has the Traitor guard DLC will fix it...

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
"Nothing is fethed here, Dude. Come on, you're being very un-Dude. They'll FAQ it."

I would very much like to see FAQs on a few things, but I'm not holding my breath. I just have a firm stance that I prefer to know the full context before I'm mad about something.

For example now that I know for sure that the Raptor Champion can't even access the melee weapon's list I'm rather frustrated at that choice when Loyalists get to have upgrade packs and wider access to melee weapons on their unit leaders.

Tyel wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Watch all of this very justified criticism have negligible effort on sales, thus allowing Geedubs to get away with this with literally no consequences

I think the problem is that a lot of the complaints are geared from people who have existing CSM armies - in some cases 20 year old CSM armies.

Whereas for someone thinking of starting today... much of this doesn't matter. Oh I can't have options X and Y on a Chaos Lord? Well, the Chaos Lord Model I can buy has a hammer and plasma pistol so... its fine? Raptor Sergeants can't have Lightning Claws? Well, I just won't build them that way. Possessed can't benefit from marks and icons? Well that's a bit lame - but if they don't, they just don't.

I mean I'm looking at the leaks and thinking there's a serviceable level of power. Its not Tyranids runaway broken (although certain information remain missing) - but its not in turn going to get the sweeping nerfs we expect Tyranids (and most of the newer books) to now get.

I don't get the comparison with Orks - because with that codex you could see about a third (or more) of the entries were dead on arrival.

I have an old no-longer legal Death Guard army I could rework into a Nurgle Warband (and even then it'd need work because double special weapons with 7 model squads), but since I'm starting a new army with this release it does feel like I don't have years of momentum causing me to be as frustrated as others are with this one.

Voss wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
They've finally broken the T8 barrier!

I look forward to Loyalist Land Raiders being T10.

Yeah, well. I'm taking it as soft confirmation of Loyalist 2.0 codex within ~6 months. Pad to 9 for continued disaster distribution.
With HH datasheets.

They kind of need to FAQ in TS and DG, too though.

Given the track record that could happen right away or years from now.

Jeez I don't know how I feel about D6+2 LC....I guess we're going to find out...

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Watch all of this very justified criticism have negligible effort on sales, thus allowing Geedubs to get away with this with literally no consequences

Some of this criticism is based on incomplete information, but okay.

"Bro look we haven't seen the full picture look come on everything looks like crap so far but it could be okay come on dudes."

Okay, show me the full rules for Daemonkin and the full Possessed Datasheet.

I get being concerned that they may not get marks, but assuming they won't then getting mad at the assumption before you know for sure just seems, well, silly.

The fact that they stealth edited the warcom article to eliminate the reference to Possessed is what we in the industry call a "clue". But I guess we just have to wAiT aNd SeE!

Quasistellar wrote:
T9 Land Raider. . . and the lascannons (they have another name in front of lascannon that I can't read because potato cam) are d6+2 damage.

I'm wondering if those lascannons are specific or something we'll see on more lascannons. . .

Twin Soulshatter Lascannons.

I don't recall, is that style of lascannon unique to chaos land raiders or is there any other vehicle with them. It may be their excuse not to upgrade basic lascannons to a similar profile--which is needed. They should ditch all these ridiculous extra names for chaos weapons that are identical to imperial versions.

Quasistellar wrote:
T9 Land Raider. . . and the lascannons (they have another name in front of lascannon that I can't read because potato cam) are d6+2 damage.

I'm wondering if those lascannons are specific or something we'll see on more lascannons. . .

Good point. I sort of hope the rest of the LC are "regular".


Automatically Appended Next Post:

From reddit:

- Venomcrawler gives a +1 to Psychic Test within 9" ;
- Warptalons are equiped with Warp Claws which are Lightning Claws and they also have a special rule to prevent disengagement (you need to roll against your opponent

I take it you didn't notice that Warptalons don't use Lightning claws? GW named them something (silly) else. Just so we can't complain about Lightning Claws or the lack thereof.

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:
Watch all of this very justified criticism have negligible effort on sales, thus allowing Geedubs to get away with this with literally no consequences

Some of this criticism is based on incomplete information, but okay.

"Bro look we haven't seen the full picture look come on everything looks like crap so far but it could be okay come on dudes."

Okay, show me the full rules for Daemonkin and the full Possessed Datasheet.

I get being concerned that they may not get marks, but assuming they won't then getting mad at the assumption before you know for sure just seems, well, silly.

The fact that they stealth edited the warcom article to eliminate the reference to Possessed is what we in the industry call a "clue". But I guess we just have to wAiT aNd SeE!

Chill a little bit. Like I said, I am not against being concerned, but let's not act like it's solid fact until we have evidence. What we have now is conjecture that people are treating like fact and then being mad at.

And the Possessed edit could have been related to the Unaligned keyword since it was presented at the same time.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
I take it you didn't notice that Warptalons don't use Lightning claws? GW named them something (silly) else. Just so we can't complain about Lightning Claws or the lack thereof.

Oh I noticed and I'm not exactly thrilled. Lighting Claws are one of two weapons Night Lords are known for (the other being the Chainglaive) and see it so unavailable (outside of using it as an "Accursed Weapon" which does have nice stats, lacks the signature re-roll) isn't exactly making me thrilled.

They're still lightning claws. GW just didn't want to explicitly treat them as such for some reason.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
They're still lightning claws. GW just didn't want to explicitly treat them as such for some reason.

Feels like the intent is to silo almost all unit wargear so bonus stacking for specific things is harder to accomplish.

Quasistellar wrote:
T9 Land Raider. . . and the lascannons (they have another name in front of lascannon that I can't read because potato cam) are d6+2 damage.

I'm wondering if those lascannons are specific or something we'll see on more lascannons. . .

"Twin Soulshatter(?) Lascannons". Probably why they have +2 dmg. Pity, was kinda hoping for buffs for regular Lascannons as well, Damage D6 is just garbage on dedicated AT-guns.

Happy with the buffs to Landraiders and Vindicators . They all sorely need it, heretic and loyalist alike.
Poor Predator will probably get left out in the dirt...

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
They're still lightning claws. GW just didn't want to explicitly treat them as such for some reason.

Feels like the intent is to silo almost all unit wargear so bonus stacking for specific things is harder to accomplish.

The claws don't give them the extra attack because that's already been rolled into the unit profile. They still get the re-roll wounds, but GW can't call them 'Lightning Claws' anymore because of them not giving you the extra attacks.
Removing lightning claws altogether for everyone else is still utterly bewildering, though.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
They're still lightning claws. GW just didn't want to explicitly treat them as such for some reason.

Current design paradigm- they want to bake as much into the unit profile as they can (and provide no options).

But, no, game-wise they aren't lightning claws. They wouldn't be affected by anything that affects lightning claws (or power weapons, or whatever). I'm not sure if its intentional or not but this design 'silos' weapons and units away from each other and makes future modifications more difficult (or at least, longer lists).

Voss wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
They're still lightning claws. GW just didn't want to explicitly treat them as such for some reason.

Current design paradigm- they want to bake as much into the unit profile as they can (and provide no options).

But, no, game-wise they aren't lightning claws. They wouldn't be affected by anything that affects lightning claws (or power weapons, or whatever). I'm not sure if its intentional or not but this design 'silos' weapons and units away from each other and makes future modifications more difficult (or at least, longer lists).

There probably isn't much that would be targeted to LC I would think. It feels like the Tyranid thing where the bigger numbers on the datasheet makes them look "cooler".

 MinscS2 wrote:

Quasistellar wrote:
T9 Land Raider. . . and the lascannons (they have another name in front of lascannon that I can't read because potato cam) are d6+2 damage.

I'm wondering if those lascannons are specific or something we'll see on more lascannons. . .

"Twin Soulshatter(?) Lascannons". Probably why they have +2 dmg. Pity, was kinda hoping for buffs for regular Lascannons as well, Damage D6 is just garbage on dedicated AT-guns.

Happy with the buffs to Landraiders and Vindicators . They all sorely need it, heretic and loyalist alike.
Poor Predator will probably get left out in the dirt...

Soulshatter Lascaanon sounds like the Chaos name for Godhammer Lascannon which is what the loyalists call them, and what they'll be called in the imminent FAQ updating the loyalists rules. Only question is whether they'll remember/bother to update Death Guard and Thousand Sons at the same time or whether they have to wait 2 years for their next codex update.

Nice, Land Raider t9, Vindicator with shield is 2+ save, the weapons got neat buffs.

Now if only they had kits that weren't the same 3rd edition vehicles with 2nd edition upgrade sprues.

The situation with Raptors and Warptalons is just sad. At least Raptors can still take 2 special weapons in a squad of 5. That helps ease the burn a little bit.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:


"Why are you squatting and taking a dump on my plate?"
"How do you know it's crap? It's not fully out yet."

Okay, this genuinely made me laugh out loud. Well played.

I guess one thing I can appreciate is the Havoc Autocannons being AP-2. That's a positive I guess?