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Voss wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

Voss wrote:

 ph34r wrote:

Voss wrote:

ph34r wrote:Same with my daemon prince's ranged weapon project, that's canceled

Just delayed til about December. New one has a gun. The datasheet in the codex has less than six months of life to it.

Well, that's confusing.

Yeah. It got leaked, so they showed off the model during the Warhammer Fest Preview. But it isn't coming out until around the Slaves to Darkness release in December. Or maybe the Chaos Daemons Codex sometime off around that time. But until then, the codex datasheet is for the current model, not the model that we already know exists.

On the plus side, the new one looks much better and has god specific heads, and a warp bolter arm option.
On the downside, the whole thing highlights how pointlessly ephemeral this release model is.

I mean we're making the bold assumption that they'll update the chaos marine prince at all rather than just giving daemons the new profile.

Not... really. They took pains to show off the 'daemon marine ascendant' builds of the model and tie it into the Chaos Marine release during the preview show.
There are some limits to their crappy behavior, and it generally stops well before _not_ selling a model.

Well, I'm sure death guard possessed disagree. I'd also expect them to update all 3 books daemon prince if that's the case. I'm happy to be wrong but I can't see them updating the profile.

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
Has it been said anywhere which discipline the Balefire tome has access to? And I'm presuming that it's cast 1 deny 1 and already knows smite (silly to presume but...).

Here's the entry. They get cast 1, deny 1, know Smite and 1 spell from Dark Hereticus.

 Scottywan82 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
This is depressing.

Removed.
Removed.
Removed.
Removed.
Removed...

... and on and on it goes.

They took out the Warpsmith's plasma pistol?! That's the only gun he comes with!

That or he gets it for free now.

I’m having a hard time trying to decide if the amount of manufactured outrage or unwarranted surprise is greater in this thread. I know it is a Chaos thread, but so much salt for things that were rightfully expected has reached a new level.

Still, if you want change, then respectfully write GW and ask about the unreasonable changes they have made. They might reverse them like they did with the Aeldari Autaurk issue. Just be sure they are changes that don’t make sense rather than those you just don’t like. Toss too much at them and the reasonable are likely to get missed in the volume.

For example, I wouldn’t bother asking about the loss of Jump Packs for Chaos Lords. There is no current Chaos Lord with a Jump Pack model. So the CLwJP gets to hang out with all the other retired models like Space Marine Librarians or Drukari Archons not hoofing it around on foot.

I also wouldn’t waste your time asking after options that are not supported by the current kits. Warpsmiths don’t have combi-weapons because the current kit’s only option is Axe (included in base cost) or Thunder hammer.

You might be a bit saltly about not being allowed to double up special or heavy weapons in your Legionnarie squads, but you get to stand in line behind all the other troops squads that have been seriously limied in the most recent version of their codex, like Battle Sisters, Skitarii, Firewarriors, Harliquin Troupes, and Wyches to name just a few.

Instead, concentrate on the truly strange like:

Why can’t Chosen take Power Fist when the kits comes with multiple of them?

Why can’t Raptor Champions take 1 or 2 Lightning Claws? The box does have 5 pairs of them for the Warp Talon version of the build.

Good luck! You’ll need it you Traitor Heretics.

I agree I really don't see the issue with the new book? So what if your warpsmith has a combi weapon just say before the game he's not WYSIWYG and it's fine. I play at events fairly regularly and as long as you explain what everything is as the start of the game then people don't really care as long as you are clear.

Rules wise I think the codex looks alright so far, nothing utterly crazy except for Abby but then we haven't seen the stratagems yet and they are quite often massively important for the book. I'm looking forward to getting some games in when the book Congress out and just experimenting with things. Our fast attack slots are looking quite busy now with spawn and VC being dirt cheap and warp talons having a million attacks each.

Also these leaks have made me consider a land raider for the first time in about 20 years.

Except there WAS a Jump Lord before the silly model rotation. It needs to be supported, period.

For those Chaos Players upset about the loss of equipment. Come on over to Heresy. We have LOADS of equipment options, build variation and just enough reactions to make the game interesting!

Silliness aside, I actually think Marines really shine in Heresy, compared to 40k were they're now more of a joke. There is so much build variation it's incredible. Our base level lieutenant has more wargear options than the entirety of the Chaos Character section from 40k!

 alextroy wrote:
I’m having a hard time trying to decide if the amount of manufactured outrage or unwarranted surprise is greater in this thread. I know it is a Chaos thread, but so much salt for things that were rightfully expected has reached a new level.

Oh, good, you've dismissed reasonable criticism as a possibility from the start. You definitely have things to say that are worth listening to.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Except there WAS a Jump Lord before the silly model rotation. It needs to be supported, period.

You can decide you want to die on this hill if you want. I assure you that you will die waiting for it to be changed.

At least unless GW decides the game needs a nifty new Jump Lord model

 Togusa wrote:
For those Chaos Players upset about the loss of equipment. Come on over to Heresy. We have LOADS of equipment options, build variation and just enough reactions to make the game interesting!

Silliness aside, I actually think Marines really shine in Heresy, compared to 40k were they're now more of a joke. There is so much build variation it's incredible. Our base level lieutenant has more wargear options than the entirety of the Chaos Character section from 40k!

Don't tempt me now.

 Togusa wrote:
For those Chaos Players upset about the loss of equipment. Come on over to Heresy. We have LOADS of equipment options, build variation and just enough reactions to make the game interesting!

Silliness aside, I actually think Marines really shine in Heresy, compared to 40k were they're now more of a joke. There is so much build variation it's incredible. Our base level lieutenant has more wargear options than the entirety of the Chaos Character section from 40k!

I'm just building for both.

 alextroy wrote:
I’m having a hard time trying to decide if the amount of manufactured outrage or unwarranted surprise is greater in this thread. I know it is a Chaos thread, but so much salt for things that were rightfully expected has reached a new level.

At least for me it's not manufactured. We knew from a lot of the leaks that a lot of this stuff was likely to happen, but there was always that hope that those were simply playtest rules and they wouldn't do us so dirty.

Most of the removals were different Icon types, which is simply due to there being a different icon system. That's fine. (Also, different icons work differently for different datasheets, that's not annoying at all.)

A lot of the rest of the removals were combi-weapons of varying types. I can live without those options, combi-weapons always struck me personally as goofy and cumbersome. Still, they've given other factions, like Sisters of Battle, butt-loads of combi-weapons across the range, so why didn't they include more bits in Chaos kits?

The rest of the removals we expected, but are still disappointing. Jump packs, lightning claws, a slew of other melee and ranged weapons going the way of the dodo. Yes, few of those things have kits, but I keep hammering on this point:

WHY DON'T THE KITS HAVE THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE???

I'm disappointed in every aspect of GW when it comes to Chaos Marines.
>I'm upset at the Design studio for not adding an extra sprue of options here or there to flesh out unit options.
>I'm disappointed in the Rules team and their managers for pushing this 'only what's in the box' prerogative.
>I'm disappointed in the Marketing team for trying to make it sound like this is gunna be such a great new Codex.

But the true frustration comes in at the very start of the system, the design of the kits, particularly of the Chaos Terminators. They could have chopped out some of the options that existed in order to flesh out other things. Take out the Lightning Claws and random singular Chainaxe and give us more Chainfists, Power Swords, and maybe a second combi-plasma at LEAST. The Chosen? Lots and lots of options, but again, myriad random junk that could have been chopped out in favor of giving us a squad that could be useful, instead of a hodge-podge. Chaos Legionaries? Pretty good, but c'mon rules team, let us take 2 of the same special weapon in a squad. It is more likely that a player is going to buy 2 boxes of Legionaries and have the bits to kit out multiple squads, why limit us in this inane way?

And, again, with the Chaos Lord. The frustration is that the design team hasn't released a new Chaos Lord to us with actual options so we can make something compelling.

Then I look over at Horus Heresy and you can give every single Cataphractii or Tartaros Terminator in a box of 10 lightning claws. You can give them all power fists. You have tons of combi-weapons and other options in the kit. The vehicles all come with a chock-full upgrade sprue JUST FOR PINTLE WEAPONS.

We know they can do it, so why don't they? Why do they keep giving us half-solutions?

With what little I know of the GW design studio it feels like the CSM updates aren't getting enough time to fully flesh out the ideas, enough budget to afford to do everything they plan on adding in, or maybe the issue is personnel related.

It's clear that there are one or more factors involved but I can't even hazard a guess to which.

One thing is for sure, a Black Templar style upgrade sprue would sort a lot of the problems and justify opening up more options to the army.

Well that and giving us access to any options we can take using HH models. I highly doubt I'll be the only one dipping between the two games for with the models after all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The more I think about it the more I feel like I'll be writing my own letter to the design team after the book comes out and we get some idea ehat the ehole image looks like. I have no hope for fixing this edition, but it'd be nice if even a fraction of it made it to the next one.

 Badger wrote:
3.5 was good, but at that time we played with "9 obliterator spam" the "invisible" minor psychic powers, later with "lash" and "invis" for whole units. I dont want those things back!

Two of the things you just described weren't even in the 3.5 Chaos Codex, and the "invisible" minor power was Siren, something that only Slaaneshi psykers could get.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
For those Chaos Players upset about the loss of equipment. Come on over to Heresy. We have LOADS of equipment options, build variation and just enough reactions to make the game interesting!

Silliness aside, I actually think Marines really shine in Heresy, compared to 40k were they're now more of a joke. There is so much build variation it's incredible. Our base level lieutenant has more wargear options than the entirety of the Chaos Character section from 40k!

Don't tempt me now.

Bruh, I've been enjoying this new launch and it is satiating my taste for Marines way more than 40K has. What I would say is it's worth the time and research to find out if HH2.0 is for you or not.

 Togusa wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
For those Chaos Players upset about the loss of equipment. Come on over to Heresy. We have LOADS of equipment options, build variation and just enough reactions to make the game interesting!

Silliness aside, I actually think Marines really shine in Heresy, compared to 40k were they're now more of a joke. There is so much build variation it's incredible. Our base level lieutenant has more wargear options than the entirety of the Chaos Character section from 40k!

Don't tempt me now.

Bruh, I've been enjoying this new launch and it is satiating my taste for Marines way more than 40K has. What I would say is it's worth the time and research to find out if HH2.0 is for you or not.

You gotta send me the Praetor datasheet. If I can get SOME use of my Combi-Flamer Chapter Master and not feel bad, I can't ask for much more.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
With what little I know of the GW design studio it feels like the CSM updates aren't getting enough time to fully flesh out the ideas, enough budget to afford to do everything they plan on adding in, or maybe the issue is personnel related.

It's clear that there are one or more factors involved but I can't even hazard a guess to which.

One thing is for sure, a Black Templar style upgrade sprue would sort a lot of the problems and justify opening up more options to the army.

Well that and giving us access to any options we can take using HH models. I highly doubt I'll be the only one dipping between the two games for with the models after all.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
The more I think about it the more I feel like I'll be writing my own letter to the design team after the book comes out and we get some idea ehat the ehole image looks like. I have no hope for fixing this edition, but it'd be nice if even a fraction of it made it to the next one.

Let me know when you write that letter and I'll write another one too.

Terminators could get another sprue of weapon options in a Kill Team style upgrade when Elites comes out.
Chaos vehicles could all be updated using the new CADs from 30k with updated 40k chaos sprues.
Bikers just need a new kit, and ideally not one with a hodge-podge of options.

I would personally tell the design team: Stop giving Chaos random weapons. If enough options wont fit on the sprue to kit out the squad with a particular kind of load-out, then cut down on the options.

example, if you don't have enough fists/chainfists to kit out a squad of 5, cut out random junk like the chainaxe in favor of getting that extra chainfist.

I'd MUCH RATHER have a situation where Chosen/Terminators/Legionaries have base weapons (power sword, chainsword, power fist) and then have a sort of chaos infantry upgrade sprue that gives us more esoteric options (power maul, power axe, chain axe, chain fist, lightning claws). Would it satisfy everyone? No, of course not, but it would at least mean that when you get that original box of models, you're not stuck making a mess of different loadouts across the unit.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Togusa wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
For those Chaos Players upset about the loss of equipment. Come on over to Heresy. We have LOADS of equipment options, build variation and just enough reactions to make the game interesting!

Silliness aside, I actually think Marines really shine in Heresy, compared to 40k were they're now more of a joke. There is so much build variation it's incredible. Our base level lieutenant has more wargear options than the entirety of the Chaos Character section from 40k!

Don't tempt me now.

Bruh, I've been enjoying this new launch and it is satiating my taste for Marines way more than 40K has. What I would say is it's worth the time and research to find out if HH2.0 is for you or not.

Big agree. The ability to customize your squads how you want, to go as cheap and straightforward and barebones, or as buffed up and overequipped as you want is a dream.

 alextroy wrote:
I’m having a hard time trying to decide if the amount of manufactured outrage...

It's not manufactured, and damn you for saying otherwise.

You walked into this thread, immediately dismissed all criticism as if it were nothing, and then proceeded to lecture everyone on how we should be responding.

Go away.

Does anyone know what benefits a supreme commander gets in the supreme command detachment? Does he get his legion traits or just his dataslate and nothing else?

 alextroy wrote:
I’m having a hard time trying to decide if the amount of manufactured outrage or unwarranted surprise is greater in this thread. I know it is a Chaos thread, but so much salt for things that were rightfully expected has reached a new level.

Hmm, criticism or backlash at yet another terrible Chaos release is either manufactured or unwarranted. Does this mean we can characterize your posting as either manufactured trolling or unwarranted disregard for the bummer fact that the codex lost big chunks?

A lot of talk about letter writing- which is a good idea, even if it doesn't achieve the desired effect.

But a bit of advice:

In every instance where letter writing has worked it has been coordinated- people were asking for the same thing.

Eldar players got the Autarch load-out changed because THAT was the thing they agreed to ask for before the letter writing started.

So the problem with this book, from what I've read of this thread, is that there's SOOO much wrong, that it would probably be difficult to come up with the "Just One Thing" to rally behind and ask for.

But if people wanted to give it a shot, and try and figure out what the one change should be, it could move the agenda forward.

To try and bring this thread back onto something that looks like "on topic" I think that the Daemonkin keyword will have a list building requirement to take Marks of Chaos unlike the "Chaos Undivided" keyword that lets you choose an optional Mark. That or the unit will come with an automatic Mark of Chaos rolled in and you just take one for free.

I am not excited about the loss of wargear options, but I'm keeping my expectations low and stubbornly waiting to see the missing information before I get really frustrated.

And despite my "wait and see" approach, I am honestly frustrated. I've mentioned it before in this thread but if it comes in plastic for HH it should be an option for the army.

 alextroy wrote:
I’m having a hard time trying to decide if the amount of manufactured outrage or unwarranted surprise is greater in this thread. I know it is a Chaos thread, but so much salt for things that were rightfully expected has reached a new level.

Still, if you want change, then respectfully write GW and ask about the unreasonable changes they have made. They might reverse them like they did with the Aeldari Autaurk issue. Just be sure they are changes that don’t make sense rather than those you just don’t like. Toss too much at them and the reasonable are likely to get missed in the volume.

For example, I wouldn’t bother asking about the loss of Jump Packs for Chaos Lords. There is no current Chaos Lord with a Jump Pack model. So the CLwJP gets to hang out with all the other retired models like Space Marine Librarians or Drukari Archons not hoofing it around on foot.

I also wouldn’t waste your time asking after options that are not supported by the current kits. Warpsmiths don’t have combi-weapons because the current kit’s only option is Axe (included in base cost) or Thunder hammer.

You might be a bit saltly about not being allowed to double up special or heavy weapons in your Legionnarie squads, but you get to stand in line behind all the other troops squads that have been seriously limied in the most recent version of their codex, like Battle Sisters, Skitarii, Firewarriors, Harliquin Troupes, and Wyches to name just a few.

Instead, concentrate on the truly strange like:

Why can’t Chosen take Power Fist when the kits comes with multiple of them?

Why can’t Raptor Champions take 1 or 2 Lightning Claws? The box does have 5 pairs of them for the Warp Talon version of the build.

Good luck! You’ll need it you Traitor Heretics.

There also isn't a Chaos Lord model with a: power sword, powerfist, power axe, power maul, or "tainted" chainaxe either, but apparently all of those conversions are just fine. And as EviscerationPlague pointed out, we had a Chaos Lord model with a Jump Pack (and Lightning Claws too, BTW), but they curiously removed it just before this codex is going to be released. So we had a model that "fit the rules", when they wrote this codex. That tells me this is deliberate, not just a case of "no model, no rules".

Oh, and did I mention that the only Chaos Lord model currently available is a Black Legion Character? And making him anything besides Black Legion, or arming him with any of those weapons that I listed, requires cutting off parts of the model? Meanwhile, we have another Black Legion character, with a Jump Pack, who doesn't require a knife, either to make him a different Legion or arm him differently. This isn't "no model, no rules", it's "these conversions are OK, these aren't. Because REASONS, that's why".

And I'll definitely be writing gw about this . If they can fix their idiocy for Eldar, they can do it for us. It worked for them, it can work for us, if they think it will cost them money. Everyone is also forgetting that it worked for Death Guard and Thousand Sons when the Compendium was released and they were locked out of basically everything. They fixed that once the complaints came rolling in, and fast.

Hopefully, we'll get some honest reviews from the various "influencers" come Saturday as well. Everyone needs to make noise about this. There's no reason for us to just roll over and take this. Especially not because certain people just want us to. Like you.

While we're compiling lists of WtF, I wonder why all of the sudden Noise Marines can only have 1 Blast Master per 10 Marines. It's always been allowed to have 2 Blast Masters if you had at least 10 Marines. If you buy the upgrade sprue you get 5 Sonic Blasters and 1 Blast Master so to make a 10 Marine squad you need to buy 2 sprues. And guess what! You have 2 Blast Masters available to you to use. So why, all of the sudden are we limited to 1 Blast Master for 10 Noise Marines? It isn't due to spruage and it isn't no model no rules so why GW why?

Leo_the_Rat wrote:
While we're compiling lists of WtF, I wonder why all of the sudden Noise Marines can only have 1 Blast Master per 10 Marines. It's always been allowed to have 2 Blast Masters if you had at least 10 Marines.

Well Legionaries can take 2 heavy weapons at 10, but not the same. The same applies to Noise Marines, only they don't have a second heavy weapon option.

 alextroy wrote:
...manufactured outrage...

... I don't think you know what those words mean. Not in that order at least.

DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
...manufactured outrage...

... I don't think you know what those words mean. Not in that order at least.

The new Chaos Space Marines Codex has been done no dirtier than any other 9th Edition Codex. Watching yet another codex release filled with the same wailing and gnashing of teeth is tiring.

 alextroy wrote:

DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
...manufactured outrage...

... I don't think you know what those words mean. Not in that order at least.

The new Chaos Space Marines Codex has been done no dirtier than any other 9th Edition Codex. Watching yet another codex release filled with the same wailing and gnashing of teeth is tiring.

Are you sure about that?

The Tyranids' Codex (power issue aside) is really well done and cool.
GSC has lots of options.
Loyalist Marines just keep getting more and more things.
Knights were differentiated and seem decently well-done.

CSM might not be the worst-done (might) but they're definitely not as good as others.

 alextroy wrote:

DreadfullyHopeful wrote:

 alextroy wrote:
...manufactured outrage...

... I don't think you know what those words mean. Not in that order at least.

The new Chaos Space Marines Codex has been done no dirtier than any other 9th Edition Codex. Watching yet another codex release filled with the same wailing and gnashing of teeth is tiring.

Beyond whether this is true: That would be unjustified outrage. Not manufactured outrage.

Unless there's some really impressive stuff in the CSM codex that we haven't seen yet, the only 9th edition codexes that can be said to have been "done as dirty (or even dirtier)", are Orks and Necrons, IMHO. Though they've still got the chance to up Guard and Daemons. And they just keep rubbing more and more salt into Ork's wounds.