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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
I guess it’s sort of that way with any response. The people who really hate something, really want to voice their opinion on why they hate it. The normal or mildly good stuff gets no reaction. The great stuff gets it’s heroes. I am a prof., student response evaluations are exactly the same.

What do you mean by "good" stuff? Do you mean the powerful stuff that will work well in games? The abilities and units that will perform well in a competitive environment?

Quite frankly I'm not even expecting it to be like 6th edition Tyranids where the codex was dog gak but had a competitive build. I think it's just gonna be flat overall.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
I guess it’s sort of that way with any response. The people who really hate something, really want to voice their opinion on why they hate it. The normal or mildly good stuff gets no reaction. The great stuff gets it’s heroes. I am a prof., student response evaluations are exactly the same.

exactly, random casual players aren't going to make an account on some random forum to say something neutral like "new codex seems interesting, some good stuff and some bad stuff, curious to actually read through it!"

 odorofdeath wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
I guess it’s sort of that way with any response. The people who really hate something, really want to voice their opinion on why they hate it. The normal or mildly good stuff gets no reaction. The great stuff gets it’s heroes. I am a prof., student response evaluations are exactly the same.

exactly, random casual players aren't going to make an account on some random forum to say something neutral like "new codex seems interesting, some good stuff and some bad stuff, curious to actually read through it!"

The Internet, in a nutshell. Nice

Well, for my part, the new codex seems interesting with some good stuff and bad stuff. I'm curious to actually read it.

I certainly don't like the kit-restricted loadouts (edit: just realised that my profile pic is even a converted Lord with Jump Pack!), but this wouldn't be the first time I've ripped arms off models between editions.

 Cheex wrote:
Well, for my part, the new codex seems interesting with some good stuff and bad stuff. I'm curious to actually read it.

I certainly don't like the kit-restricted loadouts (edit: just realised that my profile pic is even a converted Lord with Jump Pack!), but this wouldn't be the first time I've ripped arms off models between editions.

You certainly aren’t going to get any clicks or subscribers with that attitude, Mr.!

So, thinking about some of the restricted loadouts: I understand where they're coming from. They want players to be able to pick up a Codex, think "hey that unit is cool", and log on to GW.com to buy it.

The problem is those of us who would like to keep using older models. Would people feel more comfortable if the option to take a jump pack on a Chaos Lord was added to Legends?

I don't mean as a separate unit datasheet like they did with Lords on Bikes or Steeds, but rather as an extra wargear option like with Sonic Dreadnoughts (see Imperial Armour Legends).

That would allow casual players to use the Chaos Lord model that was only recently rotated out, and events would need to specifically disallow Legends to remove it.

I’m not sure moving it to legends will alleviate the concerns of those who are upset. Maybe if it were a general option as a relic? Of course with added spunk beyond just regular rules. My favorite mini is my lord on a steed, so I get it.

No. Legends is basically the same as not existing.

Further, its ridiculously unfluffy to remove it. Angels of Death descending on wings of fire is a fundamental concept to the brand. There's zero reason to take that away just from the ones with spikes on, doubly so because on of the 'spikes on' legions doubles down on that identity.

You might as well take bolters away.

 Axlbush wrote:
What's this errata to the iron warriors trait? Isn't it usually the same as the imperial fist one??

This does nothing, because the codex will be released later than the balance dataslate, and you are supposed to use the latest released rules. So, nice one GW

 odorofdeath wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
I guess it’s sort of that way with any response. The people who really hate something, really want to voice their opinion on why they hate it. The normal or mildly good stuff gets no reaction. The great stuff gets it’s heroes. I am a prof., student response evaluations are exactly the same.

exactly, random casual players aren't going to make an account on some random forum to say something neutral like "new codex seems interesting, some good stuff and some bad stuff, curious to actually read through it!"

Hey ! I pride myself as a random casual player


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 p5freak wrote:

 Axlbush wrote:
What's this errata to the iron warriors trait? Isn't it usually the same as the imperial fist one??

This does nothing, because the codex will be released later than the balance dataslate, and you are supposed to use the latest released rules. So, nice one GW

At this point it was just way to late to change the codex proper.

 Cheex wrote:
So, thinking about some of the restricted loadouts: I understand where they're coming from. They want players to be able to pick up a Codex, think "hey that unit is cool", and log on to GW.com to buy it.

The problem is those of us who would like to keep using older models. Would people feel more comfortable if the option to take a jump pack on a Chaos Lord was added to Legends?

I don't mean as a separate unit datasheet like they did with Lords on Bikes or Steeds, but rather as an extra wargear option like with Sonic Dreadnoughts (see Imperial Armour Legends).

That would allow casual players to use the Chaos Lord model that was only recently rotated out, and events would need to specifically disallow Legends to remove it.

That's the claim, but the kit restrictions do not match the kits.. So if that's the claim, it's false. Means that's not what they're doing.

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
I’m not sure moving it to legends will alleviate the concerns of those who are upset. Maybe if it were a general option as a relic? Of course with added spunk beyond just regular rules. My favorite mini is my lord on a steed, so I get it.

I know this does not mean much, but i asked this on Facebook and GW PR team said they forward it.

I am curious to how the codex looks when i have it in hand. I think there are some interesting builds in it, it just sucks that GW changed their approach for 40k from modeling your dudes to mono build.
Loosing options=models is always bad especially if it is only partially applied.
Power is in constant flux so I do not care.

 Fwlshadowalker wrote:

 Gordon Shumway wrote:
I’m not sure moving it to legends will alleviate the concerns of those who are upset. Maybe if it were a general option as a relic? Of course with added spunk beyond just regular rules. My favorite mini is my lord on a steed, so I get it.

I know this does not mean much, but i asked this on Facebook and GW PR team said they forward it.

I am curious to how the codex looks when i have it in hand. I think there are some interesting builds in it, it just sucks that GW changed their approach for 40k from modeling your dudes to mono build.
Loosing options=models is always bad especially if it is only partially applied.
Power is in constant flux so I do not care.

Agreed, the actual efficacy of models is always going to be up in the air, and I feel like, despite everything, most people in dakkadakka seem to understand that when we complain about GW's decisions.

I'll be sending more e-mails after the book is actually in hand and I can go over it with a fine-toothed comb. I really want to put the pressure on GW to figure out what they're doing with this faction so we can build our models without having to worry about what might be stripped away next edition.

 Cheex wrote:
So, thinking about some of the restricted loadouts: I understand where they're coming from. They want players to be able to pick up a Codex, think "hey that unit is cool", and log on to GW.com to buy it.

The problem is that this simply isn't true - plenty of models have access to weapons they don't have so it seems strange to suggest this is the intent of GW. Other models don't have access to equipment which is literally in their boxes. Noise Marines for example can't take two Blast Masters - why? To get enough Sonic Blasters for a whole unit you'll need to buy two upgrade packs - so you're gonna end up with more than one Blast Master.

There's other bizarre stuff as well - Raptors can take two of the same special weapon - so it's acceptable in the minds of some GW defenders to stock up on two Plasma Guns in a Raptor Squad but not a CSM Squad? Why can't I stock up on two Chosen kits to give my unit four Combi Plasmas then? You start to see the issue - there is no consistency.

People acting like this is a good or sensible change have to either be shills or living in the fantasy world of 'new is always good'.

Some part of me does believe there is an effort on GWs part to force people to buy new models to replace old ones.



They should've just made this dumb character the new 'CSM Lord with Jump Pack'. I mean how many people actually bought Haarken to field him as Haarken the jobber? Would anyone have been upset if Haarken was no longer a unique figure, but a generic character designed for Raptor Heavy armies?

 blood reaper wrote:
Would anyone have been upset if Haarken was no longer a unique figure, but a generic character designed for Raptor Heavy armies?

Yes. Without any doubt in my mind.

Absolutely, he doesn't even look like a Black Legion dude.

Raulengrin wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Would anyone have been upset if Haarken was no longer a unique figure, but a generic character designed for Raptor Heavy armies?

Yes. Without any doubt in my mind.

Was there any outrage when Grukk was denoted to generic warboss or when Kranon or what the name of that Crimson Slaughter guy became generic Chaos Lord with three relics you weren't allowed to field? Nobody cares about Haarken as a character.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

Raulengrin wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Would anyone have been upset if Haarken was no longer a unique figure, but a generic character designed for Raptor Heavy armies?

Yes. Without any doubt in my mind.

Was there any outrage when Grukk was denoted to generic warboss or when Kranon or what the name of that Crimson Slaughter guy became generic Chaos Lord with three relics you weren't allowed to field? Nobody cares about Haarken as a character.

Kranon never had specific character rules IIRC - not even in the Crimson Slaughter Codex.

Where's the rest of the leaks.....

To be fair, Grukk just was a generic warboss with a locked-in loadout and some useless formations in a book you had to pay extra for

 blood reaper wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

Raulengrin wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Would anyone have been upset if Haarken was no longer a unique figure, but a generic character designed for Raptor Heavy armies?

Yes. Without any doubt in my mind.

Was there any outrage when Grukk was denoted to generic warboss or when Kranon or what the name of that Crimson Slaughter guy became generic Chaos Lord with three relics you weren't allowed to field? Nobody cares about Haarken as a character.

Kranon never had specific character rules IIRC - not even in the Crimson Slaughter Codex.

Technically he had his own datasheet in the pamphlet that came with the Dark Vengence Box, but overall you're right.

Raulengrin wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Would anyone have been upset if Haarken was no longer a unique figure, but a generic character designed for Raptor Heavy armies?

Yes. Without any doubt in my mind.

You're really going to have to explain this one. The only thing I remember hearing about Haarken was people saying "oh man, it's so cool that Night Lords are getting a special character, he can lead my fluffy rapt... oh wait, he's Black Legion?!?"

Some random schmuck invented for fething Vigilus is not going to have the largest fan club

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

Raulengrin wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Would anyone have been upset if Haarken was no longer a unique figure, but a generic character designed for Raptor Heavy armies?

Yes. Without any doubt in my mind.

You're really going to have to explain this one. The only thing I remember hearing about Haarken was people saying "oh man, it's so cool that Night Lords are getting a special character, he can lead my fluffy rapt... oh wait, he's Black Legion?!?"

Some random schmuck invented for fething Vigilus is not going to have the largest fan club

Not just that, a badly written charachter (doubly so since his spear wasn't even a melee weapon) AND a Black Legion charachter, which well... let's just say that there are far more liked subfactions in CSM than Black Legion.

Not Online!!! wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

Raulengrin wrote:

 blood reaper wrote:
Would anyone have been upset if Haarken was no longer a unique figure, but a generic character designed for Raptor Heavy armies?

Yes. Without any doubt in my mind.

You're really going to have to explain this one. The only thing I remember hearing about Haarken was people saying "oh man, it's so cool that Night Lords are getting a special character, he can lead my fluffy rapt... oh wait, he's Black Legion?!?"

Some random schmuck invented for fething Vigilus is not going to have the largest fan club

Not just that, a badly written charachter (doubly so since his spear wasn't even a melee weapon) AND a Black Legion charachter, which well... let's just say that there are far more liked subfactions in CSM than Black Legion.

Also it was really sad and embarassing, his entire schtick, the whole world-claiming thing with driving a spear into the ground upon planetfall and claiming it'll fall within 80 days or something, failed to work the very first time he showed up.

I wouldn't mind him being gone, it was really kind of pathetic. I guess fitting for Abaddon's herald.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:


Also it was really sad and embarassing, his entire schtick, the whole world-claiming thing with driving a spear into the ground upon planetfall and claiming it'll fall within 80 days or something, failed to work the very first time he showed up.

I wouldn't mind him being gone, it was really kind of pathetic. I guess fitting for Abaddon's herald.

TBF to abbadon, they atleast now somewhat wrote him out of his role and name "Failbadon the (h)armless". However the lackluster writing for him in the past 2 decades more or less still taints his "prestige".

Harkon needed to be probably the quota special HQ, which is a shame because a plastic jumppack lord with options along the lines of the Terminator lord would've sold like oven fresh bread.

Ok, WHACKY IDEA folks: just allow the Harkon model to be built as either Harkon or a Chaos Lord with a Jump Pack. That way, anyone who wants to use Harkon (all three of them) can have him. And everyone else, can have a Jump Lord.

I've been over this about a hundred times, but again: it is far easier to convert the Harkon model into a Jump Lord from another Legion, and with different weapons, than the Obsideus Mallex model. Harkon has the same basic construction of standard CSM infantry models, IE: Legionaries, Chosen, Raptors, Warp Talons, and Havocs. You can use any arms, weapons, shoulders pads, or heads from those kits with it with no problem. All you need is glue. Obsideus Mallex? Not so much. If it's ok by gw for people to use the Obsideus Mallex model as a Chaos Lord in an Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, or Night Lords army, and arm it with all of those weapons that don't come in the kit, then the same should apply to the Harkon model.

It doesn't look like it would take much to convert him. His kit comes with 3 shoulderpads and just a hand swap would take care of the spear.

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ok, WHACKY IDEA folks: just allow the Harkon model to be built as either Harkon or a Chaos Lord with a Jump Pack. That way, anyone who wants to use Harkon (all three of them) can have him. And everyone else, can have a Jump Lord.

I've been over this about a hundred times, but again: it is far easier to convert the Harkon model into a Jump Lord from another Legion, and with different weapons, than the Obsideus Mallex model. Harkon has the same basic construction of standard CSM infantry models, IE: Legionaries, Chosen, Raptors, Warp Talons, and Havocs. You can use any arms, weapons, shoulders pads, or heads from those kits with it with no problem. All you need is glue. Obsideus Mallex? Not so much. If it's ok by gw for people to use the Obsideus Mallex model as a Chaos Lord in an Alpha Legion, Iron Warriors, Word Bearers, or Night Lords army, and arm it with all of those weapons that don't come in the kit, then the same should apply to the Harkon model.

Yeah I didn't explain myself super clearly. I'm not saying we remove Harkon from the lore. I'm saying we keep him in the lore, but make his rules generic - i.e., he is no longer tied to the Black Legion - but his original rules were barely BL tied anyways!

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Ok, WHACKY IDEA folks: just allow the Harkon model to be built as either Harkon or a Chaos Lord with a Jump Pack. That way, anyone who wants to use Harkon (all three of them) can have him. And everyone else, can have a Jump Lord.

I bought Harkon 'cause I liked the model. Never had any intention of fielding him as Harkon.

 blood reaper wrote:
but his original rules were barely BL tied anyways!

Originally he only buffed BL Raptors, but people complained enough to cause GW to amend his rules.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

Technically he had his own datasheet in the pamphlet that came with the Dark Vengence Box, but overall you're right.

Kranon's sword, helmet and armor were also relics in the supplement, but it was released after the FAQ that said you can only have one.