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It’s a better solution to all the bitchy whining that keeps going on, but hey, you do you!

Sympathy for chaos players just keeps on dropping, lol.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Boosykes wrote:
Chaos whinny? Lol you must be joking only whinny players I have seen are loyalist space marines.

Only when they convert their armies to My Little Space Marine Pony.

pfp checks out

As to the accursed weapons, why not? If we step back and look at this problem from another angle, we can see a trend.

Many factions have units that have 1 major weapon across the entire unit (plus the standard grenades, pistol, close combat weapon, etc). We can see Primaris Marines heading in this direction with Aggressors, Hellblasters, Intercessors, Infiltrators, Incursors, Inceptors, and all the other 'ors' that they have. Aside from their tanks (which have far too many weapons), the infantry squads are flattened.

GW traditionally has given many units, everything from Eldar Guardians to Imperial Guardsmen to Chaos Marines a selection of one or two special weapons in the squad. The strange obsession GW has is to give these sorts of units a large variety of special weapons to choose from. There's the standard Flamer, Plasma, Melta, but then there's also grenade launchers, sniper rifles, varieties of heavy weapons, and other things depending on the squad you're looking at.

The intention is to make a unit that you can build in lots of different ways, giving them a little bit of oomf without making them wholly dedicated to one particular thing. That said, in some editions things like bolters or lasguns, y'know, the standard weaponry that a squad would have, tends to be mostly worthless, and the squad is truly taken for the one or two special weapons that it can have. In many lists, people will forego as many troop units as they can in favor of specialist units with as many special weapons as they can.

There are several issues going forward:
a. the expectation is that kits will have consistent numbers of special weapons to kit out a squad of models. Traditionally, that means 2 special weapons for 10 models. However, often there's only 1 of each special/heavy weapon in a kit, which means you need to buy 2 boxes to kit out the models, or the rules need to reflect the limitations. GW, in their infinite wisdom, is unable to remain consistent between these two solutions.
b. the determination of what units get what sorts of special weapons is inconsistent, and more often than not, the rules, meta, or edition of the game will determine that there's either a stand-above weapon option (traditionally the plasma gun or something similar) and one that's usually worthless (traditionally the flamer). To many list-makers and model-builders, this can make it feel like there's wasted space on a sprue where it would have been more worthwhile to have an extra of any other special weapon.
c. in most cases, having these special weapons is good only for a tiny bit of extra punch, but the unit remains made up of mostly bolters/lasguns/the base weapon of the unit, meaning the typical troop unit isn't able to really specialize in anything other than having priority for holding objectives or screening more valuable things in your army. The ultimate irony of a world full of bolters and lasguns dominating the field is made ever so slightly lesser by the fact that those weapons have so little impact in the actual game.

This is all highlighted by the fact that 40k is supposed to be their best-selling game. It's the top-earner, with everything else paling by comparison, so why do factions in 40k remain inconsistent, with many aging models and more limited loadouts? How is it that niche games like Horus Heresy get weapon upgrade and customization packs, but we can't seem to get that for 40k units? They've got the CAD files, we've seen them update units for Kill Team. A lot of the issues that have been talked about ad nauseum in this forum would be wholly resolved by selling an extra pack of upgrade bits. One could be made for Chosen/Havocs/Legionaries that would have extra melee weapons, special weapons, and combi-weapons. Another could be made for the Chaos Terminators to help that kit and those rules be fleshed out, and another for the Cultists to make them ranged. Unnecessary if you want the kits as-is, but there if you want to add those extra options.

Yes it'd inflate the 3rd party bits market, which we already see with 30k, so what's your point?
Yes it would cost more for people that want to chase the meta or that expected those bits to be in the base box, but we're here now.
Yes, I know they won't do it or at least wont try it for another 5 years or something, but let a man dream.

Any other questions?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:
It’s a better solution to all the bitchy whining that keeps going on, but hey, you do you!

Sympathy for chaos players just keeps on dropping, lol.

You're here in the same forum as the rest of us, so if you think you have some sort of moral high ground to stand on, you really, really do not.

Let us bitch and moan and you can go troll the other 20,000 topics, bitching and moaning about their own factions.

drbored wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
It’s a better solution to all the bitchy whining that keeps going on, but hey, you do you!

Sympathy for chaos players just keeps on dropping, lol.

You're here in the same forum as the rest of us, so if you think you have some sort of moral high ground to stand on, you really, really do not.

Let us bitch and moan and you can go troll the other 20,000 topics, bitching and moaning about their own factions.

You asked me to buzz off to let you moan with your fellow whiners in the other thread which is now locked, so I'll just point out once again: dakka has a prevalent rep as an overly negative hostile gak hole because of these sort of comments.

The guy bringing us the rumours stopped posting on Dakka because of the criticisms and whining seen on here, along with being given an inqusition to validate themselves. Dakka used to be somewhere people brought leaks and rumours, now it just gets reposts from other places, because "20,000 topics full of bitching" isn't a welcoming place.

I'm sorry that people suggesting or trying to help find ways to use your existing models makes you so angry.

Time to leave, some of you have been great, more of you are self righteous arseholes out to just bitch and gang up on anyone who isn't expressing sheer hatred of the hobby they post about.

Dudeface wrote:

drbored wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
It’s a better solution to all the bitchy whining that keeps going on, but hey, you do you!

Sympathy for chaos players just keeps on dropping, lol.

You're here in the same forum as the rest of us, so if you think you have some sort of moral high ground to stand on, you really, really do not.

Let us bitch and moan and you can go troll the other 20,000 topics, bitching and moaning about their own factions.

You asked me to buzz off to let you moan with your fellow whiners in the other thread which is now locked, so I'll just point out once again: dakka has a prevalent rep as an overly negative hostile gak hole because of these sort of comments.

The guy bringing us the rumours stopped posting on Dakka because of the criticisms and whining seen on here, along with being given an inqusition to validate themselves. Dakka used to be somewhere people brought leaks and rumours, now it just gets reposts from other places, because "20,000 topics full of bitching" isn't a welcoming place.

I'm sorry that people suggesting or trying to help find ways to use your existing models makes you so angry.

Time to leave, some of you have been great, more of you are self righteous arseholes out to just bitch and gang up on anyone who isn't expressing sheer hatred of the hobby they post about.

Bye, take your self-righteous comments with you.

 bullyboy wrote:

You obviously have reading issues. Where am I talking about game balance at all? It’s an arbitrary change to the dataslate. 2 combis, 4 combis, all combis, it just doesn’t matter. Not a balance issue, or anything else. It’s basically a non issue that some people just can’t stop whining about. If you happen to have a squad filled out with all combis, simply inform your opponent that only x amount are actual combis and others are just combi bolters. They’re barely discernible from tabletop distance anyway.

Sure. You just have to accept opponent then being the one deciding which one is the combi melta etc when you want to shoot. Have fun when the combi melta is just out of range of melta bonus.

Or surely you don't expect to be allowed to always decide your weapon is conveniently always in range?

tneva82 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

You obviously have reading issues. Where am I talking about game balance at all? It’s an arbitrary change to the dataslate. 2 combis, 4 combis, all combis, it just doesn’t matter. Not a balance issue, or anything else. It’s basically a non issue that some people just can’t stop whining about. If you happen to have a squad filled out with all combis, simply inform your opponent that only x amount are actual combis and others are just combi bolters. They’re barely discernible from tabletop distance anyway.

Sure. You just have to accept opponent then being the one deciding which one is the combi melta etc when you want to shoot. Have fun when the combi melta is just out of range of melta bonus.

Or surely you don't expect to be allowed to always decide your weapon is conveniently always in range?

Yeah this suggestion from bullyboy of 'just proxy buddy!' falls apart the moment you actually have to implement it in game.

Dudeface wrote:

Spoiler:

drbored wrote:

bullyboy wrote:It’s a better solution to all the bitchy whining that keeps going on, but hey, you do you!

Sympathy for chaos players just keeps on dropping, lol.

You're here in the same forum as the rest of us, so if you think you have some sort of moral high ground to stand on, you really, really do not.

Let us bitch and moan and you can go troll the other 20,000 topics, bitching and moaning about their own factions.

You asked me to buzz off to let you moan with your fellow whiners in the other thread which is now locked, so I'll just point out once again: dakka has a prevalent rep as an overly negative hostile gak hole because of these sort of comments.

The guy bringing us the rumours stopped posting on Dakka because of the criticisms and whining seen on here, along with being given an inqusition to validate themselves. Dakka used to be somewhere people brought leaks and rumours, now it just gets reposts from other places, because "20,000 topics full of bitching" isn't a welcoming place.

I'm sorry that people suggesting or trying to help find ways to use your existing models makes you so angry.

Time to leave, some of you have been great, more of you are self righteous arseholes out to just bitch and gang up on anyone who isn't expressing sheer hatred of the hobby they post about.

You seem to be attempting to close this thread with ad hominem attacks and pilled on hyperbole. Criticism isn't 'sheer hatred.'

Several have expressed dislike about this codex and have given valid reasons for it.

Telling someone to proxy a model isn't a result everyone will accept because it's not an adequate solution. Players go to tournaments, they play strictly 'what you see is what you get,' they enjoy playing the models with the equipment they're modeled with. There are plenty of reasons why proxy isn't a solution for everyone.

Some posters on here can't accept that others don't like what they like and attempt to coerce them into a similar opinion. I honestly don't care if the next person likes or dislikes this codex, or feels it's powerful or weak. However, there are legitimate complaints about the changes, and some are trying to claim they're not valid simply because it doesn't affect their army (or soon-to-be army), so it shouldn't affect anyone.

I just wanted some Traitor Guard representation man

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 Togusa wrote:
You know, I cannot wait for the 10th Edition Chaos Codex.

All models in the book will have only two profiles.

Accursed Weapon (Melee) S5 AP-1 2DMG
Accursed Weapon (Ranged) S8 AP-2 3DMG

There will be no other wargear in the entire book. Each data sheet will have exactly one special rule, and one Legion Trait.

Finally.
Balance.

Thats pretty much the feeling when you play Thousand Sons. Options of Inferno bolter or Inferno flamer, basicly the same stats. If you want cc wapons, the terminators have the no-option sword.

Dudeface wrote:
Time to leave, some of you have been great, more of you are self righteous arseholes out to just bitch and gang up on anyone who isn't expressing sheer hatred of the hobby they post about.

When are you going to learn that you can't dig up?

This codex is truly an Accursed Weapon.

Did I miss the price on the venomcrawler + 2 oblits box coming out on pre-order tomorrow?

Also, CSM Kratos still not out yet, it came out for the lapdogs on 07 June?

As a CSM player of 21 years... yeah, we've lost some stuff, it's not ideal but stuff happens. Make the best of it and move on. Give feedback to GW in the survey and outlets they provide.

I'm content with the codex.

EightFoldPath wrote:
Did I miss the price on the venomcrawler + 2 oblits box coming out on pre-order tomorrow?

Also, CSM Kratos still not out yet, it came out for the lapdogs on 07 June?

It's direct only, so I don't think we know yet.

tneva82 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

You obviously have reading issues. Where am I talking about game balance at all? It’s an arbitrary change to the dataslate. 2 combis, 4 combis, all combis, it just doesn’t matter. Not a balance issue, or anything else. It’s basically a non issue that some people just can’t stop whining about. If you happen to have a squad filled out with all combis, simply inform your opponent that only x amount are actual combis and others are just combi bolters. They’re barely discernible from tabletop distance anyway.

Sure. You just have to accept opponent then being the one deciding which one is the combi melta etc when you want to shoot. Have fun when the combi melta is just out of range of melta bonus.

Or surely you don't expect to be allowed to always decide your weapon is conveniently always in range?

Are all your models identical looking? Gee that must suck.
Mine all have some variance, pretty easy to point out which one has combi flamers. And if you could actually read English, you’d see that I mentioned combi melta was on leader. So yeah, you’ll know exactly which one it is. But keep up the hyperbole.

Some here just want to keep hating everything about this game, the codex and the faction in general. Either find a solution or play something else. Being miserable about a hobby seems pretty counterproductive.

 bullyboy wrote:
Some here just want to keep hating everything about this game, the codex and the faction in general. Either find a solution or play something else. Being miserable about a hobby seems pretty counterproductive.

It's equally counterproductive to tell those people to 'get over it'. Neither side here is going to convince the other that they're 'wrong', so I can't understand why everyone persists in arguing as if they could.

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Some here just want to keep hating everything about this game, the codex and the faction in general. Either find a solution or play something else. Being miserable about a hobby seems pretty counterproductive.

It's equally counterproductive to tell those people to 'get over it'. Neither side here is going to convince the other that they're 'wrong', so I can't understand why everyone persists in arguing as if they could.

Well there’s truth in that for sure. My ignore list certainly expanded from this thread, makes life much easier on here.

 bullyboy wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

You obviously have reading issues. Where am I talking about game balance at all? It’s an arbitrary change to the dataslate. 2 combis, 4 combis, all combis, it just doesn’t matter. Not a balance issue, or anything else. It’s basically a non issue that some people just can’t stop whining about. If you happen to have a squad filled out with all combis, simply inform your opponent that only x amount are actual combis and others are just combi bolters. They’re barely discernible from tabletop distance anyway.

Sure. You just have to accept opponent then being the one deciding which one is the combi melta etc when you want to shoot. Have fun when the combi melta is just out of range of melta bonus.

Or surely you don't expect to be allowed to always decide your weapon is conveniently always in range?

Are all your models identical looking? Gee that must suck.
Mine all have some variance, pretty easy to point out which one has combi flamers. And if you could actually read English, you’d see that I mentioned combi melta was on leader. So yeah, you’ll know exactly which one it is. But keep up the hyperbole.

Some here just want to keep hating everything about this game, the codex and the faction in general. Either find a solution or play something else. Being miserable about a hobby seems pretty counterproductive.

So you don't expect your opponents to be able to tell the difference between ubiquitous combi-weapons, but you do expect them to remember what the slight variation is between your terminators so that they can tell which one has the combi-weapon they are not modeled with.

Uh huh, got it. Very legal, very cool.

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NZ/chaos-space-marines-warpforged-venomcrawler-and-obliterators-2022

$140NZ for the Obliterators and Venoncrawler which is £42.50, €55, $70 USD

 bullyboy wrote:

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Some here just want to keep hating everything about this game, the codex and the faction in general. Either find a solution or play something else. Being miserable about a hobby seems pretty counterproductive.

It's equally counterproductive to tell those people to 'get over it'. Neither side here is going to convince the other that they're 'wrong', so I can't understand why everyone persists in arguing as if they could.

Well there’s truth in that for sure. My ignore list certainly expanded from this thread, makes life much easier on here.

Good! Hopefully that'll mean you'll finally leave this thread for people that will offer actual constructive criticism and conversation rather than half-baked "solutions" that people have repeatedly told you they don't work, with appropriate reasoning.

Following up with attacks and dismissive comments after people don't take your (inadequate) advice, escalating tensions and hostility, is all on you.

If you want to "finish" a thread, here's what you have to acknowledge:

1. The Chaos Codex is not what many fans wanted.
2. Many options that people had developed in their armies were stripped out.
3. There is no "easy" solution to any of this, and it's unlikely GW will improve the situation of their own volition.
4. People butting into the thread calling the people here whiny or hostile doesn't help the situation or community at all.
5. If people want to complain, let them. Trying to take some higher ground in a realm of personal opinions does you no good.

Sometimes people just need to vent. If I say something like "I don't want to eat dog crap" and you come in with "have you tried a different flavor?" doesn't help at all.

 DaveC wrote:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NZ/chaos-space-marines-warpforged-venomcrawler-and-obliterators-2022

$140NZ for the Obliterators and Venoncrawler which is £42.50, €55, $70 USD

Huh, that's actually not that terrible. Not great, mind you, given they're all monopose EtB, but not terrible either

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 DaveC wrote:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NZ/chaos-space-marines-warpforged-venomcrawler-and-obliterators-2022

$140NZ for the Obliterators and Venoncrawler which is £42.50, €55, $70 USD

Huh, that's actually not that terrible. Not great, mind you, given they're all monopose EtB, but not terrible either

the Start Collecting was, what 95? Rough for anyone that missed out on that for the master of possession (likely to be 38) and legionaries (50-60ish) that were in the same box :/

drbored wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 DaveC wrote:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NZ/chaos-space-marines-warpforged-venomcrawler-and-obliterators-2022

$140NZ for the Obliterators and Venoncrawler which is £42.50, €55, $70 USD

Huh, that's actually not that terrible. Not great, mind you, given they're all monopose EtB, but not terrible either

the Start Collecting was, what 95? Rough for anyone that missed out on that for the master of possession (likely to be 38) and legionaries (50-60ish) that were in the same box :/

Well, ain't that how it always goes with Star Collecting sets? Most of them had you get a good chunk of them for free, compared to buying separately.

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

drbored wrote:

 Wha-Mu-077 wrote:

 DaveC wrote:
https://www.games-workshop.com/en-NZ/chaos-space-marines-warpforged-venomcrawler-and-obliterators-2022

$140NZ for the Obliterators and Venoncrawler which is £42.50, €55, $70 USD

Huh, that's actually not that terrible. Not great, mind you, given they're all monopose EtB, but not terrible either

the Start Collecting was, what 95? Rough for anyone that missed out on that for the master of possession (likely to be 38) and legionaries (50-60ish) that were in the same box :/

Well, ain't that how it always goes with Star Collecting sets? Most of them had you get a good chunk of them for free, compared to buying separately.

Yarp. I personally would have preferred to pay 60 dollars for each of the kits (60 for 2 oblits and 60 for a venomcrawler) or something like that if they'd gotten better kits and separate boxes. A Venomcrawler able to take some different weapons on the torso, the oblits having some posing/weapon/head options... A man can dream.

IMO, GW is missing out on money by giving these kits their own boxes.

Dudeface wrote:

The guy bringing us the rumours stopped posting on Dakka because of the criticisms and whining seen on here, along with being given an inqusition to validate themselves. Dakka used to be somewhere people brought leaks and rumours, now it just gets reposts from other places, because "20,000 topics full of bitching" isn't a welcoming place.

True. Dakka dakka has been largely out competed by other communities as the go to for leakers. The last leak I saw on here the person posting the leak got his leak shat all over and everyone was incredibly negative lol. Just why bother sharing here if the community is like this you know? I know I wouldnt, there's no motive, leakers leak because they want to enjoy the discussion and get credit, but its just miserable here.

This is all highlighted by the fact that 40k is supposed to be their best-selling game. It's the top-earner, with everything else paling by comparison, so why do factions in 40k remain inconsistent, with many aging models

Mmm. Honestly, I think there is a tidal wave of range updates coming. GW really do seem to do things years in advance, like the Angron CAD model apparently existed at least 2 years ago, and might have been being worked on as much 4 years ago, and in the last 5 years they have multiplied the rate of their model creation and releases to many times that of before, massively scaling with the increased success of the company.

But covid has delayed so much that there's now just this absolutely fething massive bunched up tidal wave of models over years that they have. Like an absolute gakload of models they we are only just seeing the beginnings off.

I'm fully expecting the Imperial Guard update to include many of the guard regiments that people aren't expecting right now like armaggedon, catachan, elysian, valhallan, tallarn etc etc, and a Tyranid range refresh and expansion to coincide with SM2 and a Tau range refresh with many of the auxiliaries like the Kroot being greatly expanded.

Pre orders up in NZ. Looks like cultist are all on a single sprue…….

 GaroRobe wrote:
Pre orders up in NZ. Looks like cultist are all on a single sprue…….

Jesus, it is indeed all just one single sprue.

I also count 10 improvised weapons and 10 autopistols, as well as a single Chainsword and a single Boltpistol

They really went all out on the options huh.
I think even the bloody much-maligned new Boyz had more.

drbored wrote:

IMO, GW is missing out on money by giving these kits their own boxes.

That's been true of cultists for years (since the 6th edition box) and... will continue, thanks to giving them no options.

Dudeface wrote:

drbored wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
It’s a better solution to all the bitchy whining that keeps going on, but hey, you do you!

Sympathy for chaos players just keeps on dropping, lol.

You're here in the same forum as the rest of us, so if you think you have some sort of moral high ground to stand on, you really, really do not.

Let us bitch and moan and you can go troll the other 20,000 topics, bitching and moaning about their own factions.

The guy bringing us the rumours stopped posting on Dakka because of the criticisms and whining seen on here, along with being given an inqusition to validate themselves. Dakka used to be somewhere people brought leaks and rumours, now it just gets reposts from other places, because "20,000 topics full of bitching" isn't a welcoming place.

What a fething consoomer attitude LOL

drbored wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

 Shakalooloo wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Some here just want to keep hating everything about this game, the codex and the faction in general. Either find a solution or play something else. Being miserable about a hobby seems pretty counterproductive.

It's equally counterproductive to tell those people to 'get over it'. Neither side here is going to convince the other that they're 'wrong', so I can't understand why everyone persists in arguing as if they could.

Well there’s truth in that for sure. My ignore list certainly expanded from this thread, makes life much easier on here.

Good! Hopefully that'll mean you'll finally leave this thread for people that will offer actual constructive criticism and conversation rather than half-baked "solutions" that people have repeatedly told you they don't work, with appropriate reasoning.

Following up with attacks and dismissive comments after people don't take your (inadequate) advice, escalating tensions and hostility, is all on you.

If you want to "finish" a thread, here's what you have to acknowledge:

1. The Chaos Codex is not what many fans wanted.
2. Many options that people had developed in their armies were stripped out.
3. There is no "easy" solution to any of this, and it's unlikely GW will improve the situation of their own volition.
4. People butting into the thread calling the people here whiny or hostile doesn't help the situation or community at all.
5. If people want to complain, let them. Trying to take some higher ground in a realm of personal opinions does you no good.

Sometimes people just need to vent. If I say something like "I don't want to eat dog crap" and you come in with "have you tried a different flavor?" doesn't help at all.

While there are plenty of fun and cool things the new book can do, the Chaosistency of it all is maddening. Plus, I had also converted squads of Chosen: one with thunder hammers, one with plasma guns, and one with lightning claws. I can mish-mash them and call the plasma guns combi-plasmas, but there is certainly a level of frustration there. And not being able to mark Daemonkin units seems more than a little weird, especially Possessed.

That said, there's a difference between venting and the last 100+ pages of this thread. How many times does one person need to piss and moan about the same exact thing? At some point you just become a broken record, and no one wants to hear it anymore.