Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Tyran wrote:
And against Ork boyz a fleshborers averages 0.25 and a gorgon spinefist averages 0.41665
Spinefist also have the advantage against daemons because invulnerables.

Depends on the target and your meta.

That's completely fair. I think I'd rather have the range and options other than Gorgon, but there is a case for spinefists in that niche.

 catbarf wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
And against Ork boyz a fleshborers averages 0.25 and a gorgon spinefist averages 0.41665
Spinefist also have the advantage against daemons because invulnerables.

Depends on the target and your meta.

That's completely fair. I think I'd rather have the range and options other than Gorgon, but there is a case for spinefists in that niche.

I would also argue that if you have a large unit of 30, giving some of them spinefists may still be worth if for the extra flexibility in the case you get charged, even if you aren't Gorgon. You don't want a big unit of termagants being tied by some enemy chaff.

 Tyran wrote:

 catbarf wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
And against Ork boyz a fleshborers averages 0.25 and a gorgon spinefist averages 0.41665
Spinefist also have the advantage against daemons because invulnerables.

Depends on the target and your meta.

That's completely fair. I think I'd rather have the range and options other than Gorgon, but there is a case for spinefists in that niche.

I would also argue that if you have a large unit of 30, giving some of them spinefists may still be worth if for the extra flexibility in the case you get charged, even if you aren't Gorgon. You don't want a big unit of termagants being tied by some enemy chaff.

Can't. Termagant weapons are all or nothing. They have fleshborers or ALL models in unit replace them.

For me, the biggest problem with Gorgon is you're burning your hive fleet rule to prop up some of the weakest choices in the codex, and at least for termagants, they don't need to be that weak. Outside some very specific match ups, and a few corner cases , the Strength characteristics in the codex are high enough that poison doesn't matter. The overall stat shift just makes it irrelevant most of the time, and there are only a few monster vs monster fights where some of the worst options in the codex are hitting at S7 rather than 8, or 9, or 14. Gorgon's effectiveness just vanishes if ~700-1000 points of your army aren't bound up in t3 w1 5+ save models. You could have another hive fleet adaptation instead.

Voss wrote:

Can't. Termagant weapons are all or nothing. They have fleshborers or ALL models in unit replace them.

For me, the biggest problem with Gorgon is you're burning your hive fleet rule to prop up some of the weakest choices in the codex, and at least for termagants, they don't need to be that weak. Outside some very specific match ups, and a few corner cases , the Strength characteristics in the codex are high enough that poison doesn't matter. The overall stat shift just makes it irrelevant most of the time, and there are only a few monster vs monster fights where some of the worse option in the codex are hitting at S7 rather than 8, or 9, or 14. Gorgon's effectiveness just vanishes if ~700-1000 points of your army aren't bound up in t3 w1 5+ save models. You could have another hive fleet adaptation instead.

Those specific matchups are not exactly niche though. For example Gorgon is an excellent mirror match adaptation, specially with how prevalent nidzilla armies currently are.
Plus it isn't just the adaptations, Gorgon relic, psychic power and stratagem are also quite good,

I dare say; max ripper squads with guns in gorgon sound hilarious.

Bitharne wrote:
I dare say; max ripper squads with guns in gorgon sound hilarious.

Omg yes

I miss hive commander. I will try with getting 1st turn charge like this instead:

Winged hive tyrant 17' move with adrenal glands
Kraken strateger opportunistic advance 8''
Onslaught psychic power in order to charge
Shard lure for 3d6 choosing the highest on the charge.

So 25' move with 3d6 charge picking the highest.

Tons of strats or relics to give him more punching power.
Probably giving him 5+ fnp and -1 to hit camaeolic skin relic for durability once he gets there.

 licensedfool wrote:
I miss hive commander. I will try with getting 1st turn charge like this instead:

Winged hive tyrant 17' move with adrenal glands
Kraken strateger opportunistic advance 8''
Onslaught psychic power in order to charge
Shard lure for 3d6 choosing the highest on the charge.

So 25' move with 3d6 charge picking the highest.

Tons of strats or relics to give him more punching power.
Probably giving him 5+ fnp and -1 to hit camaeolic skin relic for durability once he gets there.

And if it still doesn't make it, just use Encircle The Prey and escape off of the board!

 licensedfool wrote:
I miss hive commander. I will try with getting 1st turn charge like this instead:

Winged hive tyrant 17' move with adrenal glands
Kraken strateger opportunistic advance 8''
Onslaught psychic power in order to charge
Shard lure for 3d6 choosing the highest on the charge.

So 25' move with 3d6 charge picking the highest.

Tons of strats or relics to give him more punching power.
Probably giving him 5+ fnp and -1 to hit camaeolic skin relic for durability once he gets there.

Been building on this and I think you can get 3 monsters reliably charging first turn using Kraken:

Swap adaptive trait for +1 to charge rolls
Pop Tervigon link on round one for +2" movement

Winged Hive Tyrant moves 19" with AG
Trygon Prime moves 21" with AG / opportunistic advance, and receives Onslaught
Drop a Tcyte with a Haruspex or something inside. Uses Shard Lure to make an 8" charge (with command reroll if needed for ~90% odds)

Take Resonance Barb relic on the Tervigon for more reliable Onslaught & Catalyst

Any rules anyone can see preventing Tcytes transporting other Tcytes for nesting doll hilarity?

 cuda1179 wrote:
Any rules anyone can see preventing Tcytes transporting other Tcytes for nesting doll hilarity?

No, but is there any way that's not equivalent to just deepstriking two of them next to each other?

 cuda1179 wrote:
Any rules anyone can see preventing Tcytes transporting other Tcytes for nesting doll hilarity?

Didn't that get FAQ'd last time? You think they would've rememb... wait we're talking about GW here. Of course they forgot.

Arson Fire wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Any rules anyone can see preventing Tcytes transporting other Tcytes for nesting doll hilarity?

No, but is there any way that's not equivalent to just deepstriking two of them next to each other?

Yeah there's basically only drawbacks to doing it. You end up needing to place both in base contact rather than anywhere else on the board.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
Any rules anyone can see preventing Tcytes transporting other Tcytes for nesting doll hilarity?

Didn't that get FAQ'd last time? You think they would've rememb... wait we're talking about GW here. Of course they forgot.

Yep and then they completely forgot to include that little caveat this time. I mean... honestly, they shouldn't really HAVE to tell us that you can't put a Tyrannocyte into another Tyrannocyte, but this is the current era we live in. Will they FAQ it on Day 1? Yes.

Probably a failure attributable to the lack of digital rulebooks. Because they don't have to update rulebooks in response to FAQ, the FAQ doesn't get incorporated into their documentation. When they go to write a new codex they just copy/paste the old rules wholesale and its probably 50/50 whether they remember to check to see if there are any FAQ corrections that need to be rolled in.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Probably a failure attributable to the lack of digital rulebooks. Because they don't have to update rulebooks in response to FAQ, the FAQ doesn't get incorporated into their documentation. When they go to write a new codex they just copy/paste the old rules wholesale and its probably 50/50 whether they remember to check to see if there are any FAQ corrections that need to be rolled in.

I am more than certain that a number of points updates GW have released have been done without looking at the previous version, and in fact by using the version before that.

I remember - Ogryn I think was the example - where they were overpriced in one version of a points update, were reduced in the next version, and then in the next version reverted back to the previous price with no explanation. And it happened quite a bit, making me think that whomever did that section didn't read/didn't know about the last points adjustment.

r34dy5t34dydr4w wrote:
Yep and then they completely forgot to include that little caveat this time. I mean... honestly, they shouldn't really HAVE to tell us that you can't put a Tyrannocyte into another Tyrannocyte, but this is the current era we live in. Will they FAQ it on Day 1? Yes.

It is literally the first thing I noticed about the Tyrannocyte entry.

That one arrived late (alongside the Sporocyst, Spores and regular Trygon pages), so I saw people talking about it before I managed to get a copy. I went straight to the Tyrannocyte as someone mentioned that you can't fit a Tyrannofex in there anymore ( ) so I went to the transport capacity, saw the wound limit, then looked at the Tyrannocyte itself and realised that you could transport endless Tyrannocytes in Tyrannocytes because they forgot (again!) to stop that. Could'a just given the Tyrannocyte a few extra wounds, but no, they forgot.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Any rules anyone can see preventing Tcytes transporting other Tcytes for nesting doll hilarity?

Aside from societal norms and being shunned as TFG?

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Aside from societal norms and being shunned as TFG?

Maybe don't say players are the problem when GW can't write rules properly.

Just a thought...

Is there any advantage in nesting dolls?

While hilarious, it also just seems a waste transport space.

 Tyran wrote:

Voss wrote:

Can't. Termagant weapons are all or nothing. They have fleshborers or ALL models in unit replace them.

For me, the biggest problem with Gorgon is you're burning your hive fleet rule to prop up some of the weakest choices in the codex, and at least for termagants, they don't need to be that weak. Outside some very specific match ups, and a few corner cases , the Strength characteristics in the codex are high enough that poison doesn't matter. The overall stat shift just makes it irrelevant most of the time, and there are only a few monster vs monster fights where some of the worse option in the codex are hitting at S7 rather than 8, or 9, or 14. Gorgon's effectiveness just vanishes if ~700-1000 points of your army aren't bound up in t3 w1 5+ save models. You could have another hive fleet adaptation instead.

Those specific matchups are not exactly niche though. For example Gorgon is an excellent mirror match adaptation, specially with how prevalent nidzilla armies currently are.
Plus it isn't just the adaptations, Gorgon relic, psychic power and stratagem are also quite good,

Plus if you're big on the Endless Swarm style army it lends itself well to that build.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Aside from societal norms and being shunned as TFG?

Maybe don't say players are the problem when GW can't write rules properly.

Just a thought...

Eh, even if we want to blame GW, I'd still give my opponent a dirty look if they actually tried that in a game.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Manfred von Drakken wrote:
Aside from societal norms and being shunned as TFG?

Maybe don't say players are the problem when GW can't write rules properly.

Just a thought...

Just because you can doesn't mean you should. This is an example of obvious intent and only the most inane of rules lawyers would even dare to try it. GW really shouldn't have to tell you that you can't put a drop pod in drop pod.

GW really shouldn't write rules that let you put a drop pod in a drop pod.

 Tyran wrote:
Is there any advantage in nesting dolls?

While hilarious, it also just seems a waste transport space.

Usually not, but I can think of one instance. Suppose you have two Tcytes next to each other. If your opponent tries to kill one for some victgory points conditions (first blood, Space wolves kill a monster, etc.) and severely wounds one, but doesn't kill it, then it can "get away" by hopping into the other Tcyte to protect it.

That's hilarious.

So rather than a Seeding Swarm, you have Nesting Swarm that appears small at first, but then expands greatly!

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That's hilarious.

So rather than a Seeding Swarm, you have Nesting Swarm that appears small at first, but then expands greatly!

Another advantage: I don't think there is any conditions where you MUST disembark on the turn a Tcyte deepstrikes, only that it must be placed by turn 3. So, you could, if the situation appeared, play out the clock and play a game of cups, then at the last second have all the clowns pile out of the car to flood an area the opponent thought was safe.

Could there also be some movement shenanigans where you can disembark from one, then number2..... etc. to get farther movement for a desired unit?

And before anyone jumps down our throats: Of course this wasn't intended. We even know that for a fact that it wasn't intended because we've been in this situation before.

Doesn't make it any less funny, or allow for some truly outlandish tactical choices that don't make any sense.

Also remember the leak is a playtest copy. We've already seen that the damage reduction of carnifexes has changed to include a sentence preventing it from stacking with Crusher Stampede.

That's in the leaked Codex already.

 cuda1179 wrote:

 Tyran wrote:
Is there any advantage in nesting dolls?

While hilarious, it also just seems a waste transport space.

Usually not, but I can think of one instance. Suppose you have two Tcytes next to each other. If your opponent tries to kill one for some victgory points conditions (first blood, Space wolves kill a monster, etc.) and severely wounds one, but doesn't kill it, then it can "get away" by hopping into the other Tcyte to protect it.

Doesn't work. You cannot re-embark onto a tyrannocyte once it's on the table.

 cuda1179 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That's hilarious.

So rather than a Seeding Swarm, you have Nesting Swarm that appears small at first, but then expands greatly!

Another advantage: I don't think there is any conditions where you MUST disembark on the turn a Tcyte deepstrikes, only that it must be placed by turn 3. So, you could, if the situation appeared, play out the clock and play a game of cups, then at the last second have all the clowns pile out of the car to flood an area the opponent thought was safe.

Could there also be some movement shenanigans where you can disembark from one, then number2..... etc. to get farther movement for a desired unit?

Also doesn't work. The tyrannocyte's rules do indeed say that you must disembark as soon as it has been set up on the table.



I still can't think of a good reason why you would want to do this.
My take is that it's not even worth an FAQ. As there's simply no advantage to doing it. If someone wants to goof and penalize themself for no real reason, then sure, let them.
These things are basically meant to be big bags of gas anyway, so just say one of them is deflated while embarked.

Arson Fire wrote:

Doesn't work. You cannot re-embark onto a tyrannocyte once it's on the table.

Also doesn't work. The tyrannocyte's rules do indeed say that you must disembark as soon as it has been set up on the table.



I still can't think of a good reason why you would want to do this.
My take is that it's not even worth an FAQ. As there's simply no advantage to doing it. If someone wants to goof and penalize themself for no real reason, then sure, let them.
These things are basically meant to be big bags of gas anyway, so just say one of them is deflated while embarked.

Yeah exactly. Nesting them was only really worthwhile in older editions due to the random scatter mechanic, so that everything arrived close together.

But now that you choose the point to land all you do is constrain yourself and sacrifice transport capacity for a meme.