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mrFickle wrote:
What this tells us is that the squats on necromunda must be breeding or have brought the cloning tech used by LOV with them after HH. But I think the cloning tech would be heretical and an excuse to attack some abhumans.

So possibly the shift to cloning by the LOV happened post HH.

If squats, demiurg and LOV are all prospering offshoots of the same species then they really are hardy compared to other species we see

they are described as basically living apart form humanity in their land train road cities, and as far as i can tell, they use cloning but allow for natural aging a decent variation of gene-stock, so it wouldnt be that obvious to the imperials

Yeah it definitely looks like there's going to be different offshoots with LoV being the central one. The "minimal contact with their Baltic core cousins" suggests to me that LoV have been away from the setting for a long time and will be re-emerging from isolation.

@mrFickle - they stated that the LoV origins are from cloning so they have been doing it form the start when they were created by the Votann/Ancestors/men of Stone. They might not rely on it now though. Also thinking that the squats get the Land Train, the Leagues will get something else . But nice to have variety ..

To be honest, when it comes to Abhumans? It’s my solid impression that on Necromunda you either don’t care, because you’re far too busy, or you’re Cawdor/Redemption.

Given House Goliath predominantly still rely on Vatborn, and House Escher’s sort of variant thereof the proper name I can’t recall. And so cloning is in itself hardly taboo or not understood on that particular world.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
And on the Land Trains?

One suspects that they’d have been brought with them from the Homeworlds for the very same reason they existed in Epic - they were effective and efficient means to travel otherwise inhospitable worlds, and be able to take everything it and it’s potential inhabitants can throw at you.

Even with a little extrapolation? You have your Engine car. And all it’s little chickabiddy towed cars can then be detached as needed, into ready made bastions/mining posts with at least some capacity to shift its own arse if needs be.

That’s the sort of thing you don’t just give up. Develop and further refine, sure.

But Necromundan Squats having them is no indication the Votann won’t - or at least won’t have some iteration thereof.

I reckon perhaps we won't see an exact land train in 40k. I get the feeling the Squats of Necromunda are there for people to get all their hatey "we just want the old look" thing out while the Votanni are the newer, tech look.

I really hope we get demiurg models and that they are sufficiently odd looking.

It’s even possible Demiurg are renegades by comparison.

On the Land Trains - I just think they are too big to work on a battlefieldand are more likely to be a battlefield. I mean its like a moving town, even a small single engine would be something like a Jawa sand crawler and a train would be multiples.. and I still think even that would be too small to represent them. So wether the Kin have a version as well is moot.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It’s even possible Demiurg are renegades by comparison.

Yeah they could be like the Outcast class of Eldar [the rangers/corsairs]- leaving the strict caste system of the Leagues to be more independent though trade/mining/fighting.

The Demiurg could be misidentified as xenos because they are so heavily genetically modified they would appear on cursory inspection to be nonhuman. Maybe they are just the long distance space miner/trader caste.

I mean many in the Imperium have trouble telling the different Eldar branches apart from each other. Maybe they make a mistake in the opposite direction by thinking the Demiurg and the Kin are different when actually they are just castes or branches of the same race.

It occurs to me that the dedication to the Votann would be a good hook for Chaos Squats should that ever be a thing; corrupt one Votann, get instant army of loyal troops free!

Or rather start building an army with corrupted cloneskeins that induce exaggerated dentition along with a twisted mind focussed on living to support industry rather than the industry existing to support the living…

 Mr_Rose wrote:
It occurs to me that the dedication to the Votann would be a good hook for Chaos Squats should that ever be a thing; corrupt one Votann, get instant army of loyal troops free!

Or rather start building an army with corrupted cloneskeins that induce exaggerated dentition along with a twisted mind focussed on living to support industry rather than the industry existing to support the living…

And ancestor core learned about the power of the gods and the warp and realised if it could harness that power it’s could protect its league from the perils of the universe. So slowly it twisted the course of its league into the eightfold path. Or something but I like the idea of an evil ancestor core

Really quite excited, as those with W+ will get a Loremasters on the Leagues this Wednesday, hence a wee bit of threadomancy to get this one higher up.

Right now we’ve had tidbits here and there, so I’m looking forward to this particular entry.

ok, so a few tibits:

they have confirmed that the cloneskins are gentically diverse gene-tailored creations, rather than straight carbon copies of each other. they inhabit the core, and "straddle the line between abhuman and xenos", in terms of diversion form human baseline. Individual Kin may have a lot of additonal genetic engineering done to specific cloneskins, that add what would be mutations to human eyes, but are simply blessings to the Kin (things like enhanced reflexes, better protection to vacuum, etc). they have psykers, but it appears to be limited to specially chosen cloneskins, and even then is somewhat limited, sheilded by designed nature. Its confirmed they are not immune to corruption, but its exceedingly rare they fall.

the galactic Core is described as inhospitable to most, full of stars in too-close contact, black holes, and other Bad Things that only a race as heavily adapted as the Kyn could survive.

the Iornkyns bodies are not hot swappable: the are as much a part of the unit as the cerebral core, and damage needs to be painstakingly repaired. they are treated as full members of the Kyn. the flesh and blood kyn do not talk of them around humans, but do not deny their nature if pressed (this is implied to have started at least one war between the two factions).

the true nature of the Ancestor Cores, however, is a very closely guarded secret that they freely lie or misrepresent to the Imperials, normally as a article of faith or something similar. It mentions that a new Vontann achieved full sentience only "a millennia ago", so its clearly not true lostech that cant remade, which is intresting. thier is some psychic element to them, as well. only psyker Kyn can truely interact with them (acting as a priest caste), and they shine so brightly to those who know what to look for, the Kin use them for warp navigation in lieu of the Astronomicon.

their are also lesser machine intelligences known as "cogs", which are described as being like "Pets, or familiars", and used for roles that the Imperium might use servitors for.

the Leagues are not static, but change constantly as new ones form and old ones die off or are lost. they mention 5 by name, which i assume will be the named subfactions of the Kin.

their is the greater <something i cant quite make out> League, which appears to be the "defaul" league, in the grey and blues we have mostly seen.

the <something>Hegamony, which is a new, upstart league with a martial leaning, with a black and yellow scheme.

the ymir conglomerate, crafters with rich lands and great skilled makers, with a great deal of high end equipment, and dressed in red

the <something> regulate, a super stubbon "not one step back" league that will fight to the last, regardless of cost. fought with the necrons a lot in recent history. no colour scheme shown

the Trans <something> allience is nomadic league with a higher than normal level of ancestor worship, with a orange scheme.


the great rift has forced the Kyn to leave the core "In numbers not seen in 10,000 years", which implies they were fairly active either during or just after the great crusade/heresy, and have been in splendid isolation for most of imperial history, known of but not worth attacking (though plenty of fighting has happened).

Its the Greater Thurian League, the Kronos Hedgemony, Urani-Surtr Regulates and Trans Hyperion Alliance.

I loved all the lore - very dwarf. They are more numerous than the Tau or the Eldar and seem to be pretty formable -Kronos Hedgemony have broken Ork Waaghs and Imperial Crusades. There is some great art too- there is one of a massive hammer shaped ships with shattered imperial cruisers looking very small at it's prow.

So much good stuff- there are a couple fo named Kahls - expecting one to be a special character.
it seems they can do lot on their own without the Votann but the results aren't as a good- there are clone guilds which oversee the Crucibles - they can make new cloneskeins but with shorter lifespans. The Brokhyrs can make new Ironkin too. The Votann also have asked/taken hardware additions so they can/are trying to extend their life. Really interesting that the Votann form a constellation of bright stars in the Immaterium .
The best thing is there was just so much depth of the lore, seems to really fix them in the setting. They have outposts throughout the galaxy but are now expanding out more to gain more territory and resources.

I presume the BL will be doing some LOV novels, will be good to see what life is like and get a bit more details.

Feels like GW are doing a really good job here

 silverstu wrote:
Its the Greater Thurian League, the Kronos Hedgemony, Urani-Surtr Regulates and Trans Hyperion Alliance.

I loved all the lore - very dwarf. They are more numerous than the Tau or the Eldar and seem to be pretty formable -Kronos Hedgemony have broken Ork Waaghs and Imperial Crusades. There is some great art too- there is one of a massive hammer shaped ships with shattered imperial cruisers looking very small at it's prow.

So much good stuff- there are a couple fo named Kahls - expecting one to be a special character.
it seems they can do lot on their own without the Votann but the results aren't as a good- there are clone guilds which oversee the Crucibles - they can make new cloneskeins but with shorter lifespans. The Brokhyrs can make new Ironkin too. The Votann also have asked/taken hardware additions so they can/are trying to extend their life. Really interesting that the Votann form a constellation of bright stars in the Immaterium .
The best thing is there was just so much depth of the lore, seems to really fix them in the setting. They have outposts throughout the galaxy but are now expanding out more to gain more territory and resources.

Were those all this info came from???

Vatsetis wrote:


Were those all this info came from???

Warhammer plus, games workshops subscription streaming service, did a "loremasters" video on them. its one part a consolidation of the existing lore already revealed about them, but also a significant expansion with all the little tidbits we were talking about.

Thanks!! Very informative!!

mrFickle wrote:
I presume the BL will be doing some LOV novels, will be good to see what life is like and get a bit more details.

Feels like GW are doing a really good job here

Yes I'm hoping for some novels- the lore has a good feel already candid be very keen to grab some novels which flesh it out further.

so, second lore video has dropped. a few more tibits:

The leagues have had such a ork and nid problem in their past the Imperium at large thought they were extinct, hence closing the circle on that element of the lore.

League warp travel is built around short, accurate jumps using psychic computers and the Voltann as nav beacons. The sustained speed is lower than imperial ships manage (one of the few areas that imperials are noted to be ahead of the League), but they dont suffer anything like as much risk, or time dilatation because of it.

They have a very "The strong do what they can, and the weak suffer what they must" approach to resource acquisition. If they can take it, they will, without care of who might be harmed by it. They have the capability to literally pull worlds apart to get access to wanted minerals, or drain gases straight out of stars and nebulae.

The leagues often trade with the outside galaxy under a range of names, "few of which are of their choosing", which causes confusion as to who, exactly, these xenos are, and is part of the reason they were thought extinct. THEY ARE EXPLICTLY THE RACE THE T'AU KNOW AS THE DEMIURG, and the ones how first sold them Ion technology. the battlefleet gothic Bastion and Stronghold vessals are Leagues of Voltann ships under contract. The Tau are under the impression that these small fleets are all thats left of the Kin, and the leagues, who view all diplomacy as "how can i benefit?", see no profit in enlightening them that they were not all eaten by the nids.

speaking of the nids, the Leagues call them "the bane", and have relocated entire worlds (not populations, ENTIRE WORLDS) to new locations if the cost/benefit analysis is bad enough. that said, they have also been known to dig in and stubbonly hold thier planets for however long it takes, citing the example of the Urani-Surtr Regulates.

the Nids have explictly wiped out a full League, Hive Fleet Leviathan doing the deed. the Kin fed thier dead back into the ancestor core to deny the biomass to the enemey, and the accumulated pain and fear clouded the Voltann's mind, driving it mad. the Nids eat every living thing, but left the Ancestor core alone, alive and buried. The "Mad Core" is still active, but the Voltann do not go near it or use it as a nav point, several tried, all came to ruin.

Relations with the Eldar are arms length and "brisk", the craftworlders are too arrogant, the dark eldar too decadent, and the harlequins just plain crazy. apparantly, they get on fine with the Exodite eldar, which is a intresting tease raising hopes for dino-riding elf cavalry in the future.

chaos is met with "disgust" and they have little time for them. Necrons see them as another upstart race to shift, but are wary of them. The Kins prefered deep mining methods can easily crack open tomb worlds, and the Kin consider the robots rich easy pickings if still asleep, and "shoot on sight" if they are awake.


Orks....are orks. The kin hate them, not only for the obvious "endless menace" reasons everyone hates them, but their endlessly wasteful internal conflicts and shoddy designs are the anathema to the Kins own "practical efficiency" mindset. "A prize for an ork" is a expression the kin use to discribe a worthless thing.


the relations with the Imperial are more of the same: they generally dont interact with the higher levels, small bands float around the imperium more or less as they please (its implied the Voltanns warp tech is very hard to detect and track), and they make deals with minor planetary lords and such for mineral rights when its the quickest route to getting those minerals, but are quite happy to rip a continent apart under the imperials very feet to get to those same minerals if that is the quickest route to riches.

They are known to hire themselves out as mercs for profit, and are generally seen as just another bunch of abhumans by most, no more heretical than ogryns or ratlings. the more educated or zealous think of them as xenos, though, to be treated with only in a "enemy mine" situation (though given the long list of common enemies, this is still a lot of the time).

the Kin consider the Admech "rats, scurrying over a scrap heap", and try to avoid them wherever possible. the admech are explictly unware of the full range of League techology, and the kin will go to "whatever lengths they need to, to keep it that way"

As previously mentioned, the Kin interact with humanity under multiple names, sometimes as the Leagues, others as the Squats, Demiurg, and still other names. It is "Not clear" weather these were separate civilisations of kin, some variant of the Leagues, or some mixture of both. they mention the Alpha Legion infiltrating a automated mining facility of the Demiurg during the Heresy, and mention that the Squat populations of Necromunda & Vordhiem(not sure on that last name?) have been on the planets for as far as the imperials records go back. These kin accept the name squat grudgingly, but coreworlds Kin see it as a insult. they have explictly been isolated for at least 10,000 years and their equipment is not the same as the leagues of the core.


all in all, some very intresting stuff.

The mad ancestor core is a nice touch, if the LOV are popular enough we might get some sort of chaotic (but not chaos) leagues

What do the Leagues actually offer in trade? I mean the Tau got ion technology but other races may not use the same tech base. Exodites for example use little tech and what they do use is based on the same psychoplastics as Craftworld tech. What do the Leagues have to offer Exodites? What do they offer the Imperium besides mercenary services if they also at the same time try to conceal their tech from the Adeptus Mechanicus?

It's curious why the Leagues would have decent relations with Exodites as it would seem Exodites have little to offer except maybe mineral rights over their worlds. I would imagine the Exodites would balk at massive industrial strip mining that is destructive to their Maiden World and World Spirit circuits though. I could see a scenario like the Avatar movie developing.

Exotic materials for making pretty things? Eldar do like the pretty things.

While they may not give mining rights for their planet, there may be other bodies in the system that they care less about.

 Flinty wrote:
Exotic materials for making pretty things? Eldar do like the pretty things.

While they may not give mining rights for their planet, there may be other bodies in the system that they care less about.

see, form what the loremaster stuff was saying, they wouldnt bother asking for permission to mine an asteroid....they'd just cruise in system and do it. the only reason they'd bother talking to the current inhabitants is that those inhabitants were strong enough to stop them, or it was physically easier to get permission than to just steamroller it.

the only things i can imagine the Exodites having that the Kin would want would be things like pharmaceuticals or other biologically derived stuff that their normal "rip the planet apart continent by continent" approach would struggle to exploit.

What do the Leagues actually offer in trade? I mean the Tau got ion technology but other races may not use the same tech base. Exodites for example use little tech and what they do use is based on the same psychoplastics as Craftworld tech. What do the Leagues have to offer Exodites?

Most likely exotic materials form the funky stuff happening in the Core, I'd guess. Or more conventional tech to replace or support the traditional eldar stuff.

What do they offer the Imperium besides mercenary services if they also at the same time try to conceal their tech from the Adeptus Mechanicus?

i believe they sometimes trade raw materials with the imperium if thats easier than starting a war. Also, while the Admech are very common thoughout the imperium, that doesn't make them literally omni-present (look at the sucess of the Van Saar at hiding their STC, and a lot of their tech looks like it would pass first glance by a tech priest (for example, the iornkin might just be mistaken for another form of cog or servitor, espically if the tech priest didnt get time to study, their power armour or plasma weaponry appears to mimic imperial equipment via different methods, etc). also, they are often mistaken for Xenos and so studying their tech in detail would then be heresy (not saying it doesnt happen).

most of the really juicy heretek is stuff that isn't going to be seen by outsiders, stuff like the Ancestor cores.