Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Reread that statement, Gert, and tell me what you think is goofy about it...


I mean seriously. Infantry Squads ignoring limitations on the FOC...but CONSCRIPTS don't?

We used to have platoons before. It's not that hard.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Reread that statement, Gert, and tell me what you think is goofy about it...


I mean seriously. Infantry Squads ignoring limitations on the FOC...but CONSCRIPTS don't?

Conscripts should be a rarity, not the default.

 Gert wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Reread that statement, Gert, and tell me what you think is goofy about it...


I mean seriously. Infantry Squads ignoring limitations on the FOC...but CONSCRIPTS don't?

Conscripts should be a rarity, not the default.

They should be limited to no more than infantry squads or one per detachment.

 Gert wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Reread that statement, Gert, and tell me what you think is goofy about it...


I mean seriously. Infantry Squads ignoring limitations on the FOC...but CONSCRIPTS don't?

Conscripts should be a rarity, not the default.

yes and no, i mean a drug fueled penal legion being directed into combat seems pretty grimdark to me. I would personally like to see like in all codexes the ability for a player to take whatever they think their army should be. Now the guardsmen themselves should have superior rules and stats to the conscripts showing they are trained soldiers, but that does not mean a cheaper worse stat conscript unit should be terrible and limited.

Andykp wrote:
They should be limited to no more than infantry squads or one per detachment.

I could get behind one per detachment.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
yes and no, i mean a drug fueled penal legion being directed into combat seems pretty grimdark to me. I would personally like to see like in all codexes the ability for a player to take whatever they think their army should be. Now the guardsmen themselves should have superior rules and stats to the conscripts showing they are trained soldiers, but that does not mean a cheaper worse stat conscript unit should be terrible and limited.

The problem comes from freedom of choice for the player and a balance between the units.
I oppose the 5th Ed Platoon system where you need to have a Commander and Command Squad for a Troops choice because I don't want to run Command Squads. So a system where I can run lots of infantry without a tax is preferred.
However, I don't think that Conscripts should be the go-to choice for an infantry-heavy army just because they are cheap. The discrepancies between Conscripts and Infantry Squads are also easily fixed for little cost. There isn't really a reason to bring Infantry Squads over Conscripts, and TBH I don't think they should exist as a unit at all.
Not sure where being "Grimdark" comes into play.

 Gert wrote:

Andykp wrote:
They should be limited to no more than infantry squads or one per detachment.

I could get behind one per detachment.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
yes and no, i mean a drug fueled penal legion being directed into combat seems pretty grimdark to me. I would personally like to see like in all codexes the ability for a player to take whatever they think their army should be. Now the guardsmen themselves should have superior rules and stats to the conscripts showing they are trained soldiers, but that does not mean a cheaper worse stat conscript unit should be terrible and limited.

The problem comes from freedom of choice for the player and a balance between the units.
I oppose the 5th Ed Platoon system where you need to have a Commander and Command Squad for a Troops choice because I don't want to run Command Squads. So a system where I can run lots of infantry without a tax is preferred.
However, I don't think that Conscripts should be the go-to choice for an infantry-heavy army just because they are cheap. The discrepancies between Conscripts and Infantry Squads are also easily fixed for little cost. There isn't really a reason to bring Infantry Squads over Conscripts, and TBH I don't think they should exist as a unit at all.
Not sure where being "Grimdark" comes into play.

I think you handle that with differentiation not just saying no. An all gretchin ork army of gretchin, killa kans, grot tanks and runtherds is not going to win games but you can run it. Consrcipts while i think should nto be limited also would lack the skills to do most objectives beyond maybe ones involving destroying them. so limited activation uses, BS5+, lower leadership and a 6+ armor save (basically orks minus the toughness, and with weaker guns) people probably would not take many of em unless infantry squads are just awful all around.

 G00fySmiley wrote:

 Gert wrote:

Andykp wrote:
They should be limited to no more than infantry squads or one per detachment.

I could get behind one per detachment.

 G00fySmiley wrote:
yes and no, i mean a drug fueled penal legion being directed into combat seems pretty grimdark to me. I would personally like to see like in all codexes the ability for a player to take whatever they think their army should be. Now the guardsmen themselves should have superior rules and stats to the conscripts showing they are trained soldiers, but that does not mean a cheaper worse stat conscript unit should be terrible and limited.

The problem comes from freedom of choice for the player and a balance between the units.
I oppose the 5th Ed Platoon system where you need to have a Commander and Command Squad for a Troops choice because I don't want to run Command Squads. So a system where I can run lots of infantry without a tax is preferred.
However, I don't think that Conscripts should be the go-to choice for an infantry-heavy army just because they are cheap. The discrepancies between Conscripts and Infantry Squads are also easily fixed for little cost. There isn't really a reason to bring Infantry Squads over Conscripts, and TBH I don't think they should exist as a unit at all.
Not sure where being "Grimdark" comes into play.

I think you handle that with differentiation not just saying no. An all gretchin ork army of gretchin, killa kans, grot tanks and runtherds is not going to win games but you can run it. Consrcipts while i think should nto be limited also would lack the skills to do most objectives beyond maybe ones involving destroying them. so limited activation uses, BS5+, lower leadership and a 6+ armor save (basically orks minus the toughness, and with weaker guns) people probably would not take many of em unless infantry squads are just awful all around.

The fix for that could be to limit them and make them crap, so no obsec but dirt cheap. Then have an army of renown that can be all conscripts. Then could gain obsec but not allow other troop choices. That way there is no reason to take conscripts as the main troop type but yiu can still an army of them.

honestly i hate the army of renound route and anything limiting what models you can bring beyond rule of 3. personally I have 2 sort of different imperial guard armies built and painted. 1 is a tempestus scion air drop army which is currently illegal as i cannot bring the flyer transports, and a the 2nd a penal legion army of orange jumpsuit troops with commisars pushing them forward into the grinder protected by thier bullgryn bodyguards. would suck to have both invalidated.

Jarms48 wrote:

Many players play pure infantry Guard. That requires 3 battalions to field 18 infantry squads, which costs 6 CP and requires a minimum of 6 mandatory HQ slots.

To be fair that could be (mostly) solved easily by adding an INFANTRY unit to fast attack - maybe a recon squad, or even the Special Weapons Squad. That would allow you to take a Brigade without being forced to take VEHICLE units.

Just give the Special Weapon Squad a pre-game move like Dominions and make them Fast Attack. Might actually make them useful.

Giving SWS a Scout move feels a bit weird, so if we're set on a new FA choice, getting a full "forward scout" kind of squad would be better IMO (something between a SWS and the old "Veterans with Forward Sentries" gig). If not, would RR be considered sufficient (assuming they are in the 9e dex and all the rumours/signs aren't an out-of-season April Fool's joke)? Or is the goal "all infantry, all the time"?

I have literally said this so many times.

This is where breaking some of these nonsense catch-all squads into specialized units would be nothing but a benefit.

Want FA?
Artillery Spotters and Sniper Teams. How are they "Fast Attacks", you might wonder?
Give them a forward infiltration role, ala Tau Pathfinders.

When I first started Guard with the Doctrines codex as well, we had 3 distinctive types of Heavy Weapons Squads.
-Fire Support had Heavy Bolters and Autocannons.
-Antitank had Missile Launchers and Lascannons
-Mortar had...mortars, obviously?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Reread that statement, Gert, and tell me what you think is goofy about it...


I mean seriously. Infantry Squads ignoring limitations on the FOC...but CONSCRIPTS don't?

Conscripts should be a rarity, not the default.

And there's other ways to address that...but you've literally argued against my suggestions about Conscripts before that would be used specifically to make them a rarity or to underline that Conscripts are not necessarily part of the regimental structure in the past.

Things like the new Cadian Whiteshield stratagem are a better way to handle it then "Infantry Squads don't count as mandatory Troop choices".

In an ideal world?
Conscripts would be broken into two setups:

Penal Legionnaires, which are closer to a Guard Infantry Squad for setup but lose their Regimental traits and have an Auxilia status with the Officio Prefectus keyword(if we're stuck with Commissars, might as well make use!)
The Conscripts we have now but having been dulled down a bit. 6+ save, Raw Recruits, Autoguns, Shotguns, or Autopistols+CCWs--also the Prefectus keyword. Great little spot to work in Newcromunda models too...

And then, to top it all off, this opens up the design space for properly detailing Guard Infantry Squads.

 Kanluwen wrote:
And there's other ways to address that...but you've literally argued against my suggestions about Conscripts before that would be used specifically to make them a rarity or to underline that Conscripts are not necessarily part of the regimental structure in the past.

Things like the new Cadian Whiteshield stratagem are a better way to handle it then "Infantry Squads don't count as mandatory Troop choices".

I don't remember every discussion I have on this website Kan and it's been a while since I've discussed Guard in any major capacity. I don't remember what you've said about Conscripts before and I also have no idea what the Whiteshields strat does because I don't have the Octarius book with the Cadian Supplement.
I also never said that Infantry Squads shouldn't count as mandatory Troops choices, rather that they would ignore the restrictions on force org slots and that was a secondary suggestion to my primary one where Platoons functioned in a similar way to vehicle squadrons.
If we're going to discuss this can you at least read my posts properly and discuss what I wrote.

Ignoring the restrictions on force org slots means "they wouldn't count as mandatory troop choices".

There really isn't anything more to discuss about it. Platoons are not something that is realistically feasible now as anything except an army special rule, letting you organize things for drops.

And there is certainly a limit to 9th edition books having army special rules...

There are half-a-dozen ways to do platoons that are dead easy and fluffy.
Its not like basic guard squads are some sort of threat to metagame balance.

As I said, it was a secondary suggestion to my primary one where Platoons function the same way as the various Guard vehicle squadrons.

Thank god they nerfed the hell out of Scions. I was about havin heart palpitations over here, thinking these boy's might actually be worth half a wet fart, but thankfully GW swooped in and altered the Rules that altered the rules. The already altered rules.

Now we can go back to debating the merits of further nerfing Custodes.

Voss wrote:
And there is certainly a limit to 9th edition books having army special rules...

There are half-a-dozen ways to do platoons that are dead easy and fluffy.
Its not like basic guard squads are some sort of threat to metagame balance.

Sure they're not, but also you shouldn't have to build an army that has a minimum of close to two hundred frigging models as just their mandatory troop takes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gert wrote:
As I said, it was a secondary suggestion to my primary one where Platoons function the same way as the various Guard vehicle squadrons.

None of which addresses the problem of the very real issue of player fatigue when it comes to the fact that outside of cutting options?
The Infantry Squad has remained basically unchanged as long as I've been involved with 40k.

There's a reason I keep saying they need to focus more on actually differentiating the infantry archetypes out over putting the dumpsterfire that would be Platoons in 9E.

 Kanluwen wrote:
None of which addresses the problem of the very real issue of player fatigue when it comes to the fact that outside of cutting options?
The Infantry Squad has remained basically unchanged as long as I've been involved with 40k.

Ok but that wasn't the issue I was addressing with my suggestions regarding reworking the Platoon system. You can't get mad that I haven't addressed B when I'm discussing A.

There's a reason I keep saying they need to focus more on actually differentiating the infantry archetypes out over putting the dumpsterfire that would be Platoons in 9E.

The archetypes being what exactly? Infantry, Conscripts, and Vets?
I don't get how Platoons are automatically a "dumpster fire" just because you don't like them. You need to actually explain the reasoning behind your opinions instead of just assuming everyone knows what you're talking about.

Apologies if these have already been said (these aren't necessarily my 'top 3 fixes', and this is a lot more than 3), but some half-formed thoughts that could be interesting:

UNITS:

- Give Infantry Squads access to two special weapons (like real-life infantry sections, which typically have one support weapon per fireteam). This would allow them to specialise (or generalise) a little better, and could make shooting with special weapons (like meltaguns) more reliable. (Also, please just let me take lasguns on my section leaders, or shotguns.) Note that this would coincide with NO HEAVY WEAPON TEAMS in Infantry Squads (see below). Infantry Squads would be more about mobile firepower, leaving the big, cumbersome weapons to other units.

- Heavy weapon teams aren't available as a direct upgrade for Infantry Squads. They come only as budget (25-30pt) heavy support units: basically 5-man Infantry Squads, but with access to one heavy weapon instead of two special weapons. For every Infantry Squad in your detachment though, you can take a Heavy Weapon Squad in the same detachment slot. They can also take plasma cannons, multi-meltas, etc… maybe a gun shield upgrade/feature as well that gives the gunner +1 to his T and Sv, or a signum/scanner upgrade/rule that lets another Guardsman model sacrifice its shooting phase to 'assist' the gunner model (+1BS)?

- Command squads could lose the special weapon access (which seems unfluffy to me), and become all about buffing nearby infantry and protecting characters. They could have more powerful medic characters who automatically heal wounds/revive models – not just on a 4+ – and who could have something akin to the Apothecary’s “Narthecium Aura” ability (units within 3" can ignore wounds on a 6). The Command Squad could also include vox ‘administrators’ or something, who count as regular Vox operators but also grant any officers within 3” an additional order. The squad should also start off with regular Guardsmen, not BS3+ Veterans (see below).

- No more dedicated Veteran squads. Any non-Scion infantry unit (or this could include vehicle units?) could be upgradable with the <Veteran> tag, in which case all models in those units gain +1 to their A and Ld. <Veteran> units could also double their existing access to special weapons, and benefit from a stratagem that gives them +1 or similar to hit (ranged or melee) in a given phase (rather than having flat BS3+ for example).

- No more dedicated Conscript squads. Some infantry/vehicle units (maybe all <Core> units?) could be upgradable/degradable with the <Conscript> tag. Models in <Conscript> units would lose -1 WS, BS and Ld, and halve their access to special weapons… however any time <Conscript> units get destroyed they can reappear on the field the turn after. Maybe Conscripts should also lose the ‘orders only take effect on a 4+’ rule as well. If you want a big Conscript squad, use the Consolidate Squads stratagem.

- Scions get the same range on their hotshot weapons as non-hotshot ones – all “hotshot” does is confer +2 AP. I’d also like if Scions could swap out their hotshot lasguns with “hellguns”: a different weapon entirely at something like Range 18”, AP0, Assault 4. And giving Scions options for auxiliary weapons, combi-weapons or plasma/melta pistols could be interesting – more flavourful IMO than just letting them pick the same special weapons as regular infantry.

- Ditch Special Weapon squads. If you want concentrated special weapons, take a <Veteran> Infantry Squad or Scion Squad.

WARGEAR

- Additional wargear options. Infantry units (or at least Sergeants) should be able to take krak grenades, maybe melta bombs or demo charges too. Non-hotshot volley guns could also be included in the special weapons list to give regular infantry a high-RoF weapon, as could new single-shot anti-tank or anti-flyer missile weapons? You could also do other misc things, like let any infantry unit take cameleoline cloaks, carapace armour or medipacks. Things like cameleoline and medipacks could be particularly valuable for Scions dropping into danger, and would also help infantry squads trying to hold objectives.

- Maybe some actual bonuses for taking bayonets (aka, as a lite melee option for Infantry Squads). Something defensive (like a bracing stratagem) could be interesting, and might gel well with their battlefield role. Alternatively, just something like +1 WS and/or AP in a turn where they charge/are charged.

- Turn the grenade launcher into a Heavy 2 weapon using the current rotary-magazine model? Alternatively, make the current weapon profile an auxiliary/combi-weapon option on the Sergeant, with a new underslung model? Another option to make grenade launchers more appealing could be to let them indirect-fire, like short-ranged budget mortars.

- I think flamers should become Assault 2D6, Blast. On the flip side, I also think they should fire at regular or +1 BS instead of auto-hitting (meaning the firer’s BS still matters), and should maybe have a range of 6” instead of 12”. They (or ‘flame’ weapons more broadly) could also reduce cover bonuses by 1, and/or reduce the Ld of any unit they successfully wound/damage.

- To make meltaguns more reliable (on top of being able to take 2 per Infantry Squad), they could also be +1 to hit or Assault D3, Blast (with a worse statline). I mean, you’re talking about unleashing the plasma energy of a fusion reaction, right? Lava is hot enough to kill you from dozens of metres away… how the operators of these weapons survive is beyond me.

- As a general rule, the minimum number of attacks made by blast weapons could be half the model count of the squad they're targeting. Maybe this could be a quarter for 'small blast' weapons like flamers and grenades, or equal to the target squad size for 'large blast' weapons.

- Vox casters could be longer range? They could also provide indirect fire units with direct line-of-sight if other units (ones with line-of-sight to the weapon’s target) are linked via vox. This might be a more sensible way of circumventing the new ‘-1 BS to indirect fire’ rule than just straight-up saying AM are exempt.

- Missile launchers (and potentially other "missile" weapons) should be able to re-roll misses by default, or fire at +1 BS.

ORDERS/STRATEGEMS

- Maybe a 'variable power setting' order/stratagem for las weapons (or just lasguns)? I.e. a 'maximum power' option wherein las weapons get +1 Strength or rerolls to wound, and potentially +1 AP as well. You could also have a 'minimum power' option (replacing FRFSRF, and being less of an auto-choice) which could do the opposite: extra/double shots, -1 Strength and/or -1 AP. This would allow a bit of tactical flexibility, and would also bolster weapons like lascannons (you can always fire 2 minimum-power shots to improve your chances of a hit).

- A martyrdom-style stratagem that lets guardsmen 'overcharge' their lasgun power packs could be fun as well. E.g. if a unit is killed during a Fight Phase with this stratagem active, the attacking unit suffers D6 hits/mortal wounds.

MISC THOUGHTS

- Infantry Squads get the "long-las", not sniper rifles. Long-lases could have AP1 or AP2 (in the lore, they often use hotshot packs)? Sniper rifles are reserved for Ratlings (and made a bit more potent)? Just like vehicle squadrons, snipers could be bought as units but then split up and operate independently once the game starts. Each sniper could upgrade with a spotter and form a two-man unit; the spotter can assist the sniper (+1 BS) during the shooting phase in lieu of shooting himself. 48" range, AP1, and mortal wounds on hit (not wound) rolls of 6?

- Maybe we could start replacing heavy bolters in the AM lineup with multilasers – mostly for fluffy reasons, but also because of the similarity between the Heavy Bolter and Autocannon statlines. On the same note, I wish pintle weapons were volley guns instead of the less-fitting (IMO) heavy stubbers and storm bolters.

- Speaking of bolt weapons, they need a boost. I personally think AP1 would be a good start, and maybe +1 Strength or Damage (or mortal rounds on wound rolls of 6?)

FezzikDaBullgryn wrote:
Thank god they nerfed the hell out of Scions. I was about havin heart palpitations over here, thinking these boy's might actually be worth half a wet fart, but thankfully GW swooped in and altered the Rules that altered the rules. The already altered rules.

Now we can go back to debating the merits of further nerfing Custodes.

This is what GW should have done with Hammer:

“If every unit in your army has the Astra Militarum keyword, then each time a <Regiment> or <Tempestus Regiment> model from your army makes a ranged attack, an unmodified hit roll of 6 automatically wounds the target.”

Heres my 3

1. Bring back stripped down platoons, IE 1 LT (cheap and can only order his platoon) 2-5 infantry, 0-3 HWS, 0-3 SWS, 0-1 Conscripts with the point buy option to make them endless. Veterans are moved to Troops as an alternative to taking a platoon, as its purpose is to free up heavy and elite slots and give access to conscripts. Right now taking a HWS as a heavy choice is kind of a waste of slots.

2. Regiment Specializations: Each detachment picks a regiment type when it is established. The regiment type will be something like Infantry, Mobile Infantry, Artillery, Armor, Combined Arms, etc. These will place limits on what kind of units can be taken in the detachment (IE infantry has no leman russes). These will give special bonuses for the specialty. Combined Arms will be "take what you want" designation with a very basic bonus. Specific regiments like Cadia, Valhalla, etc, might have a stratagem or associated bonus that adds to this as well (ie Steel Legion get an extra mobile infantry bonus, Krieg get an extra artillery bonus)

3. Vehicles: some vehicles need a bit of an overhaul, transports like taurox and chimeras need to be much cheaper to make them worthwhile, especially considering they are often far more expensive than their occupants, and Russes just need a bit more survivability. Even if they aren't any more killy a tank should be able to take some hits without an invuln save, like a -1 D, more wounds, or even a FnP mechanic. Guard vehicles in general are not grav, made of alien materials, graceful, or high tech. They are a block of metal with some redundant moving parts strapped to a cannon and it should be reflective of that.

Bonus: SOMETHING else for fast attack, be it death riders or something for petes sake, an infantry option would be amazing like Spotters that can confer a bonus to artillery and aircraft, scouts, that get an infiltrate move but are limited to sniper rifles and demo charges, or even just a moved SWS squad with a scout move.

1 Allow squadrons of carnodons and malcadors to be taken to add some variety of tanks on the board. Allow mixed squadrons of all mentioned imperial guard battle tanks.

2 mounted infantry fast attack: rough rider squad that is instead equipted with lasguns rather than hunting lances, 2 members of the squad can be equpted with SWs. They still are equipted with chainswords so get +1attack in melee. Under cavalry regiment doctirne can be taken as troops.

3 veterans to troops and scouts, grenadiers and assault teams to take their place in elites. Sniper teams become scout teams and they can infiltrate, and can provide rerolls to artillery and to aircraft attacks. Grenadiers good old stormies. Assault teams when declaring a charge against an enemy unit every member of the squad throws a grenade. Can be upgraded to carry krak grenades, for charging vehicles with. Armed with lasguns and bayonets, can be upgraded with chainswords, IG chain glaives(a +1 strength chainsword profile(basicallythe cutty part of a chainsword on a stick), or shotguns 2 members of the section maybe upgraded with SWs or power weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
On the whole conscript thing: yeah totally should be able to take them as troops within the platoon structure. It would represent the real world practice of deploying conscripts and draftees as bulk alongside professional and highly motivated troops which provide backbone, make sure the draftees/conscripts are doing their job and are not just dying from making amateur mistakes. It could also represent penal troops(mutants, lower class or lower caste) being used as chaff and meatshields alongside actual soldiers.

I personally think an imperial guard sergeant or officer should be upgradable to have a underslung grenade launcher on lasgun/boltgun.
I think a 1 man heavy stubber team would be a good upgrade(like a SAW, light or medium MG) sure in real life you usually have an assistant, BUT unlike other weapons they are not vital to the operation of the weapon in good time. I mean we have a guy soloing a HB. i think soloing a bren,mg42, Mag, SAW etc is not without historical precidents and is not unreasonable. Would be a heavy weapon but act like a SW.

https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/ubi8pr/meta_monday_42422_new_dataslate_in_the_house/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

The results are in, even after the balance dataslate we still have a 26% winrate. It's almost like Hammer of the Emperor was completely overblown by the community and wasn't a massive buff like they hoped...

Jarms48 wrote:
https://www.reddit.com/r/WarhammerCompetitive/comments/ubi8pr/meta_monday_42422_new_dataslate_in_the_house/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

The results are in, even after the balance dataslate we still have a 32% winrate. It's almost like Hammer of the Emperor was completely overblown by the community and wasn't a massive buff like they hoped...

It's not that it's crazy powerful, it's that it's crazy stupid. Getting free Heavy/Specials is a much better buff, also more thematic, and also not yet-another-in-game-extra-rule. It's just a list/model thing.

The free wargear is just as stupid. As players will only take the best and all options. Suddenly every squad has a rare plasma gun and pistols.

It also does nothing for durability. So you could take 18 infantry squads all with plasma and lascannons, but after T1 or T2 you've lost 66% of them. Cause they die to a still breeze.

Jarms48 wrote:
The free wargear is just as stupid. As players will only take the best and all options. Suddenly every squad has a rare plasma gun and pistols.

It also does nothing for durability. So you could take 18 infantry squads all with plasma and lascannons, but after T1 or T2 you've lost 66% of them. Cause they die to a still breeze.

I disagree. Seeing Guard armies without Heavies/Specials in their squadd was more stupid. Certainly the rule could have been implemented better, or the weapons could be made more equal in value so there weren't "auto-takes", but on the whole it's an improvement.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Jarms48 wrote:
The free wargear is just as stupid. As players will only take the best and all options. Suddenly every squad has a rare plasma gun and pistols.

It also does nothing for durability. So you could take 18 infantry squads all with plasma and lascannons, but after T1 or T2 you've lost 66% of them. Cause they die to a still breeze.

I disagree. Seeing Guard armies without Heavies/Specials in their squad was more stupid. Certainly the rule could have been implemented better, or the weapons could be made more equal in value so there weren't "auto-takes", but on the whole it's an improvement.

I think if they change up how grenade launchers work (indirect maybe, gas rounds? a more swiss army approach could make it viable) and give the sniper rifle some more value (more AP and a +1 BS) they would all be roughly on par with the task you need them to be. Heavy weapons are fairly close to be equal in usage with maybe the autocannon needed a little bit of a bump (ive got nothing except maybe making it D3)

This is why i think guardsmen need to be able to go to ground as a standard action in the movement or shooting phase and they should become much more resilient. Because they're not soaking up the damage on their squishy bodies and armour. The ground is. They can't move, can't charge but a decent cover save because unlike most other factions they can squish themselves into the smallest folds and features in the ground, firstly making them hard to hit but also making near misses more survivable and there like cockroaches they endure even under the greatest punishment. Unless someone starts throwing around eradicator shells, fire, or terrible music but that is besides the point. (It would also make flamers much more viable than plasma against guard as they sorta should be)

Sure they'd still be murderised in melee but that is sorta expected. In a gunfight the standard infantry squad should be annoyingly resilient. Guard on the defensive should be a pain in the gluteus maximus. Guard infantry on the offensive should be guys pressing forwards so they can lie on the ground somewhere else and take potshots with their flashlights from there. Movement should be a casualty intensive exercise for them without transports or tanks support but once they are in place and on their tummies in the mud or dirt their infantry should be stubborn.