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"When everyone is super no one will be"
I believe the Iron Warrior are the only ones not special, and that's their special thing. It's really telling !

 godardc wrote:
"When everyone is super no one will be"
I believe the Iron Warrior are the only ones not special, and that's their special thing. It's really telling !

I thought their thing was they did attrition best.

on the other hand the Legions that don't have these "special things" such as the Ultramarines and Imperial fists, are often dismissed as boring. I mean I prefer the boring legions because they tend to be the ones that have the most nuanced development, as the writers can't just lean into "WOLVES! THEY HAVE WOLVES! AND DO WOLF STUFF!"

Some of that stuff is cool. Like I recently found out from an Arbitor Ian video about Blood Angels being the Immortal 9th and basically being used to mop up/convert mutant populations into marines, and being like a zombie horde of marines. That's pretty cool. It's just unfortunate because it sorta matches up with what the Night Lords and Space Wolves and Raven Guard were like as well. And the idea that they were deployed at the fringes, out in the dark at the edge of the crusade...you mean like the White Scars?

And then like "This legion is really tough and good at tech!" "Oh you mean the Iron Hands?" "No silly, the Iron Warriors!"

I mean I guess that's why certain legions get a bit glossed over in the novels and so on. It's pretty hard to characterise 18 different legions when they're all giants in power armour that love killing.

I mean sometimes the overlap makes for good stories, the Iron Warriors and Imperial fists for example.

Other times though yeah it's just like "yeah every second legion was good with tech no one cares"

What makes the game work well isn't the special cases but the fact that they're all pulling from the same core list/units. It wasn't the legion rules that made me want to play 30k, it was the fact 40k sucked at that point lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
I mean sometimes the overlap makes for good stories, the Iron Warriors and Imperial fists for example.

Other times though yeah it's just like "yeah every second legion was good with tech no one cares"

Ya, basically they defend, iron warriors attack. But there was cool fluff in the details on both side, iron warriors just throwing thousands of serfs and slaves to soak up bullets and probe for weaknesses, IF having crazy ass fortresses.

In game terms tho, attack defend stuff is tougher to balance that normal skirmishing.

BrianDavion wrote:
on the other hand the Legions that don't have these "special things" such as the Ultramarines and Imperial fists, are often dismissed as boring. I mean I prefer the boring legions because they tend to be the ones that have the most nuanced development, as the writers can't just lean into "WOLVES! THEY HAVE WOLVES! AND DO WOLF STUFF!"

Nono, even the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists are special-er than the rest. They both get their fair share of superlatives which in many cases sound suspiciously similar to the superlatives bestowed on other legions. Especially the ultramarines, whos fluff literally paints them as being first amongst specials, and the specialist of the special (except for the other guys who are special-er), who all the other special guys look up to and wish they could be as special as.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Boss wrote:
Some of that stuff is cool. Like I recently found out from an Arbitor Ian video about Blood Angels being the Immortal 9th and basically being used to mop up/convert mutant populations into marines, and being like a zombie horde of marines. That's pretty cool. It's just unfortunate because it sorta matches up with what the Night Lords and Space Wolves and Raven Guard were like as well. And the idea that they were deployed at the fringes, out in the dark at the edge of the crusade...you mean like the White Scars?

And then like "This legion is really tough and good at tech!" "Oh you mean the Iron Hands?" "No silly, the Iron Warriors!"

I mean I guess that's why certain legions get a bit glossed over in the novels and so on. It's pretty hard to characterise 18 different legions when they're all giants in power armour that love killing.

Yep, basically this. The writers only seem to rarely make good use of the overlap (Iron Warriors v Imperial Fists, for example), other times it seems unintentional and the result of running out of ideas/forgetting the traits of other legions and trying to make the one legion seem specialer by misattributing qualities to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crablezworth wrote:
What makes the game work well isn't the special cases but the fact that they're all pulling from the same core list/units. It wasn't the legion rules that made me want to play 30k, it was the fact 40k sucked at that point lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
I mean sometimes the overlap makes for good stories, the Iron Warriors and Imperial fists for example.

Other times though yeah it's just like "yeah every second legion was good with tech no one cares"

Ya, basically they defend, iron warriors attack. But there was cool fluff in the details on both side, iron warriors just throwing thousands of serfs and slaves to soak up bullets and probe for weaknesses, IF having crazy ass fortresses.

In game terms tho, attack defend stuff is tougher to balance that normal skirmishing.

We're talking about fluff, not about rules/gameplay.

I'm talking about fluff expressed through gameplay, also the fluff taking the form of reaction in a lot of ways now isn't a great direction.

chaos0xomega wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
on the other hand the Legions that don't have these "special things" such as the Ultramarines and Imperial fists, are often dismissed as boring. I mean I prefer the boring legions because they tend to be the ones that have the most nuanced development, as the writers can't just lean into "WOLVES! THEY HAVE WOLVES! AND DO WOLF STUFF!"

Nono, even the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists are special-er than the rest. They both get their fair share of superlatives which in many cases sound suspiciously similar to the superlatives bestowed on other legions. Especially the ultramarines, whos fluff literally paints them as being first amongst specials, and the specialist of the special (except for the other guys who are special-er), who all the other special guys look up to and wish they could be as special as.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Boss wrote:
Some of that stuff is cool. Like I recently found out from an Arbitor Ian video about Blood Angels being the Immortal 9th and basically being used to mop up/convert mutant populations into marines, and being like a zombie horde of marines. That's pretty cool. It's just unfortunate because it sorta matches up with what the Night Lords and Space Wolves and Raven Guard were like as well. And the idea that they were deployed at the fringes, out in the dark at the edge of the crusade...you mean like the White Scars?

And then like "This legion is really tough and good at tech!" "Oh you mean the Iron Hands?" "No silly, the Iron Warriors!"

I mean I guess that's why certain legions get a bit glossed over in the novels and so on. It's pretty hard to characterise 18 different legions when they're all giants in power armour that love killing.

Yep, basically this. The writers only seem to rarely make good use of the overlap (Iron Warriors v Imperial Fists, for example), other times it seems unintentional and the result of running out of ideas/forgetting the traits of other legions and trying to make the one legion seem specialer by misattributing qualities to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crablezworth wrote:
What makes the game work well isn't the special cases but the fact that they're all pulling from the same core list/units. It wasn't the legion rules that made me want to play 30k, it was the fact 40k sucked at that point lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
I mean sometimes the overlap makes for good stories, the Iron Warriors and Imperial fists for example.

Other times though yeah it's just like "yeah every second legion was good with tech no one cares"

Ya, basically they defend, iron warriors attack. But there was cool fluff in the details on both side, iron warriors just throwing thousands of serfs and slaves to soak up bullets and probe for weaknesses, IF having crazy ass fortresses.

In game terms tho, attack defend stuff is tougher to balance that normal skirmishing.

We're talking about fluff, not about rules/gameplay.

In fairness the Ultramarines aknowledged specialty, at least in the HH is the part of warfare most 14 year old boys find the most boring (and most generals admit is most important)
Logistics

 Da Boss wrote:
Some of that stuff is cool. Like I recently found out from an Arbitor Ian video about Blood Angels being the Immortal 9th and basically being used to mop up/convert mutant populations into marines, and being like a zombie horde of marines. That's pretty cool. It's just unfortunate because it sorta matches up with what the Night Lords and Space Wolves and Raven Guard were like as well. And the idea that they were deployed at the fringes, out in the dark at the edge of the crusade...you mean like the White Scars?

And then like "This legion is really tough and good at tech!" "Oh you mean the Iron Hands?" "No silly, the Iron Warriors!"

I mean I guess that's why certain legions get a bit glossed over in the novels and so on. It's pretty hard to characterise 18 different legions when they're all giants in power armour that love killing.

I think what I like the most about IW is the fact that they aren't as tough and fortress like as they appear. Perty pushed his men to the absolute brink, he failed to take into consideration that under all the augmentation, genetic engineering, mental conditioning and battle training, Marines are still human. They still have human emotions, they can still doubt themselves and their abilities and his constant pushing didn't help with this. They're interesting because they're broken.

BrianDavion wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
on the other hand the Legions that don't have these "special things" such as the Ultramarines and Imperial fists, are often dismissed as boring. I mean I prefer the boring legions because they tend to be the ones that have the most nuanced development, as the writers can't just lean into "WOLVES! THEY HAVE WOLVES! AND DO WOLF STUFF!"

Nono, even the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists are special-er than the rest. They both get their fair share of superlatives which in many cases sound suspiciously similar to the superlatives bestowed on other legions. Especially the ultramarines, whos fluff literally paints them as being first amongst specials, and the specialist of the special (except for the other guys who are special-er), who all the other special guys look up to and wish they could be as special as.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Boss wrote:
Some of that stuff is cool. Like I recently found out from an Arbitor Ian video about Blood Angels being the Immortal 9th and basically being used to mop up/convert mutant populations into marines, and being like a zombie horde of marines. That's pretty cool. It's just unfortunate because it sorta matches up with what the Night Lords and Space Wolves and Raven Guard were like as well. And the idea that they were deployed at the fringes, out in the dark at the edge of the crusade...you mean like the White Scars?

And then like "This legion is really tough and good at tech!" "Oh you mean the Iron Hands?" "No silly, the Iron Warriors!"

I mean I guess that's why certain legions get a bit glossed over in the novels and so on. It's pretty hard to characterise 18 different legions when they're all giants in power armour that love killing.

Yep, basically this. The writers only seem to rarely make good use of the overlap (Iron Warriors v Imperial Fists, for example), other times it seems unintentional and the result of running out of ideas/forgetting the traits of other legions and trying to make the one legion seem specialer by misattributing qualities to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crablezworth wrote:
What makes the game work well isn't the special cases but the fact that they're all pulling from the same core list/units. It wasn't the legion rules that made me want to play 30k, it was the fact 40k sucked at that point lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
I mean sometimes the overlap makes for good stories, the Iron Warriors and Imperial fists for example.

Other times though yeah it's just like "yeah every second legion was good with tech no one cares"

Ya, basically they defend, iron warriors attack. But there was cool fluff in the details on both side, iron warriors just throwing thousands of serfs and slaves to soak up bullets and probe for weaknesses, IF having crazy ass fortresses.

In game terms tho, attack defend stuff is tougher to balance that normal skirmishing.

We're talking about fluff, not about rules/gameplay.

In fairness the Ultramarines aknowledged specialty, at least in the HH is the part of warfare most 14 year old boys find the most boring (and most generals admit is most important)
Logistics

Sure. If you ignore the part where all the other special marines look up to the Ultramarines and wish they could be more like them. And their specially pure highly adaptable geneseed. And the fact that they have their own semi-autonomous empire that is less grimdark and more enlightened than the actual empire they serve. And they were so special that they weren't recruited from one specific region of terra, but instead across multiple regions of terra - unlike all the other legions who only came from one region of terra, except for the other legions who came from multiple regions of terra, like the World Eaters/War Hounds. etc. etc. etc.

chaos0xomega wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
on the other hand the Legions that don't have these "special things" such as the Ultramarines and Imperial fists, are often dismissed as boring. I mean I prefer the boring legions because they tend to be the ones that have the most nuanced development, as the writers can't just lean into "WOLVES! THEY HAVE WOLVES! AND DO WOLF STUFF!"

Nono, even the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists are special-er than the rest. They both get their fair share of superlatives which in many cases sound suspiciously similar to the superlatives bestowed on other legions. Especially the ultramarines, whos fluff literally paints them as being first amongst specials, and the specialist of the special (except for the other guys who are special-er), who all the other special guys look up to and wish they could be as special as.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Boss wrote:
Some of that stuff is cool. Like I recently found out from an Arbitor Ian video about Blood Angels being the Immortal 9th and basically being used to mop up/convert mutant populations into marines, and being like a zombie horde of marines. That's pretty cool. It's just unfortunate because it sorta matches up with what the Night Lords and Space Wolves and Raven Guard were like as well. And the idea that they were deployed at the fringes, out in the dark at the edge of the crusade...you mean like the White Scars?

And then like "This legion is really tough and good at tech!" "Oh you mean the Iron Hands?" "No silly, the Iron Warriors!"

I mean I guess that's why certain legions get a bit glossed over in the novels and so on. It's pretty hard to characterise 18 different legions when they're all giants in power armour that love killing.

Yep, basically this. The writers only seem to rarely make good use of the overlap (Iron Warriors v Imperial Fists, for example), other times it seems unintentional and the result of running out of ideas/forgetting the traits of other legions and trying to make the one legion seem specialer by misattributing qualities to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crablezworth wrote:
What makes the game work well isn't the special cases but the fact that they're all pulling from the same core list/units. It wasn't the legion rules that made me want to play 30k, it was the fact 40k sucked at that point lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
I mean sometimes the overlap makes for good stories, the Iron Warriors and Imperial fists for example.

Other times though yeah it's just like "yeah every second legion was good with tech no one cares"

Ya, basically they defend, iron warriors attack. But there was cool fluff in the details on both side, iron warriors just throwing thousands of serfs and slaves to soak up bullets and probe for weaknesses, IF having crazy ass fortresses.

In game terms tho, attack defend stuff is tougher to balance that normal skirmishing.

We're talking about fluff, not about rules/gameplay.

In fairness the Ultramarines aknowledged specialty, at least in the HH is the part of warfare most 14 year old boys find the most boring (and most generals admit is most important)
Logistics

Sure. If you ignore the part where all the other special marines look up to the Ultramarines and wish they could be more like them. And their specially pure highly adaptable geneseed. And the fact that they have their own semi-autonomous empire that is less grimdark and more enlightened than the actual empire they serve. And they were so special that they weren't recruited from one specific region of terra, but instead across multiple regions of terra - unlike all the other legions who only came from one region of terra, except for the other legions who came from multiple regions of terra, like the World Eaters/War Hounds. etc. etc. etc.

dude, go complain about the 5th edition marine codex elsewhere. as for the "recruiting from all across terra" generally that was pretty common it's clear that the emperor was looking for certain traits for each legion, with some he found it in a specific region, in others he looked more widely, and in the Ultramarines it seems the emperor choose from among those groups who resisted the most (which likly had the conveniant side effect of depelating their pools of manpower)

My reading of the legions based on the HH book series at least is that there are sort of mirrors (although this can certainly be questioned.) Some of which were old standards - but others were more developed because very little had previously been written of the chapters.

Imperial Fists/Iron Warriors - Siege Warfare.
Salamanders/Death Guard - WW1-style wading through poison/fire soaked trenches.
Ultramarines/Word Bearers - Better Organisation.
Dark Angels/Sons of Horus - Tip of the Spear/doing a bit of everything but being tough while doing it.
Blood Angels/Emperors Children - Also tip of the Spear *but looking good/Anime* while doing it.
Space Wolves/World Eaters - Berserkers.
Raven Guard/Night Lords - Terror tactics.
White Scars/Alpha Legion - Outsiders.
(All 4 kind of do infiltration in their own ways.)

Which sort of leaves Iron Hands & Thousand Sons in their own bracket. You can kind of try and pair them up as "Post-Marine", but that is a bit of a reach (Reflecting that Iron Hands were not meant to be this in HH era, as it represents a 40k degeneration). Unfortunately I feel Iron Hands suffer especially because the HH in fiction is very much a story of the Primarchs, and Ferrus Manus cops it in the opening act.

Tyel wrote:
My reading of the legions based on the HH book series at least is that there are sort of mirrors (although this can certainly be questioned.) Some of which were old standards - but others were more developed because very little had previously been written of the chapters.

Imperial Fists/Iron Warriors - Siege Warfare.
Salamanders/Death Guard - WW1-style wading through poison/fire soaked trenches.
Ultramarines/Word Bearers - Better Organisation.
Dark Angels/Sons of Horus - Tip of the Spear/doing a bit of everything but being tough while doing it.
Blood Angels/Emperors Children - Also tip of the Spear *but looking good/Anime* while doing it.
Space Wolves/World Eaters - Berserkers.
Raven Guard/Night Lords - Terror tactics.
White Scars/Alpha Legion - Outsiders.
(All 4 kind of do infiltration in their own ways.)

Which sort of leaves Iron Hands & Thousand Sons in their own bracket. You can kind of try and pair them up as "Post-Marine", but that is a bit of a reach (Reflecting that Iron Hands were not meant to be this in HH era, as it represents a 40k degeneration). Unfortunately I feel Iron Hands suffer especially because the HH in fiction is very much a story of the Primarchs, and Ferrus Manus cops it in the opening act.

Theres lots of problems with this though, as you can just as easily argue that Alpha Legion are mirrored by Raven Guard for stealth and infiltration. Likewise you can argue that Iron Hands are the mirror of Ewmperors Children ho were similarly known for being fine weaponsmiths. That same parallel can also be drawn between the Emperors Children and Salamanders (as well as the Salamanders and the Iron Hands). Theres argument to be made for the World Eaters mirroring the Blood Angels instead of the Space Wolves, and Thousand Sons mirroring the White Scars.

Because every legion is special-er than all the other legions, except for the ones that are special-er than they are.

Oh yeah. I mean its an argument - people can and will argue against it. It would probably be more accurate to do a 2d compass style graph with the legions in certain spots.

(FWIW though, while the lore went with it, I don't think BA fit Khorne at all. Its what they could be. What they *are* is anime - which means Slaanesh. But ymmv.)

Not sure how "anime=Slaanesh" considering there's some pretty brutal, Khorne style animes, especially back in the 80's and 90's.

Hentai, sure, but not anime as a whole.

BrianDavion wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
on the other hand the Legions that don't have these "special things" such as the Ultramarines and Imperial fists, are often dismissed as boring. I mean I prefer the boring legions because they tend to be the ones that have the most nuanced development, as the writers can't just lean into "WOLVES! THEY HAVE WOLVES! AND DO WOLF STUFF!"

Nono, even the Ultramarines and Imperial Fists are special-er than the rest. They both get their fair share of superlatives which in many cases sound suspiciously similar to the superlatives bestowed on other legions. Especially the ultramarines, whos fluff literally paints them as being first amongst specials, and the specialist of the special (except for the other guys who are special-er), who all the other special guys look up to and wish they could be as special as.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Da Boss wrote:
Some of that stuff is cool. Like I recently found out from an Arbitor Ian video about Blood Angels being the Immortal 9th and basically being used to mop up/convert mutant populations into marines, and being like a zombie horde of marines. That's pretty cool. It's just unfortunate because it sorta matches up with what the Night Lords and Space Wolves and Raven Guard were like as well. And the idea that they were deployed at the fringes, out in the dark at the edge of the crusade...you mean like the White Scars?

And then like "This legion is really tough and good at tech!" "Oh you mean the Iron Hands?" "No silly, the Iron Warriors!"

I mean I guess that's why certain legions get a bit glossed over in the novels and so on. It's pretty hard to characterise 18 different legions when they're all giants in power armour that love killing.

Yep, basically this. The writers only seem to rarely make good use of the overlap (Iron Warriors v Imperial Fists, for example), other times it seems unintentional and the result of running out of ideas/forgetting the traits of other legions and trying to make the one legion seem specialer by misattributing qualities to them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crablezworth wrote:
What makes the game work well isn't the special cases but the fact that they're all pulling from the same core list/units. It wasn't the legion rules that made me want to play 30k, it was the fact 40k sucked at that point lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

BrianDavion wrote:
I mean sometimes the overlap makes for good stories, the Iron Warriors and Imperial fists for example.

Other times though yeah it's just like "yeah every second legion was good with tech no one cares"

Ya, basically they defend, iron warriors attack. But there was cool fluff in the details on both side, iron warriors just throwing thousands of serfs and slaves to soak up bullets and probe for weaknesses, IF having crazy ass fortresses.

In game terms tho, attack defend stuff is tougher to balance that normal skirmishing.

We're talking about fluff, not about rules/gameplay.

In fairness the Ultramarines aknowledged specialty, at least in the HH is the part of warfare most 14 year old boys find the most boring (and most generals admit is most important)
Logistics

So the unsung heroes of the UM are in fact legion serfs/servitors loading up ammo and nutrition power bars. It figures.

Tyel wrote:
Oh yeah. I mean its an argument - people can and will argue against it. It would probably be more accurate to do a 2d compass style graph with the legions in certain spots.

(FWIW though, while the lore went with it, I don't think BA fit Khorne at all. Its what they could be. What they *are* is anime - which means Slaanesh. But ymmv.)

I beg your pardon? Blood Angels being anime?

Can you elaborate. As a Blood Angels player, I am having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say here..

 tauist wrote:

I beg your pardon? Blood Angels being anime?

Can you elaborate. As a Blood Angels player, I am having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say here..

That they are a bunch of cursed, beautiful vampires led by a literal angel?

Tyel wrote:

 tauist wrote:

I beg your pardon? Blood Angels being anime?

Can you elaborate. As a Blood Angels player, I am having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say here..

That they are a bunch of cursed, beautiful vampires led by a literal angel?

Yeah, cause there's absolutely NO Western media like that, right, Anne Rice?

Totally not feeling vindicated that reactions are bad, at all...

 Crablezworth wrote:
Totally not feeling vindicated that reactions are bad, at all...

even assuming the admechs big bad robots have reactions (they may not be eligable) there are ways around this. if a SINGLE reaction like that loses you the game you where the inferior general anyway. heck I'd argue the therea re other reactions that are potntially more potent then this. Advanced reactions are CLEARLY intended to be a "ocne per game ability that if used at the right moment in the right circumstances can turn the tide in your favor.

Sorry for coming in late. Seems to me most of the terrain issues have been fixed by finally walking back a mistake that has dragged on since 2008: you can no longer kill what you can't see, on a model by model basis.

 tauist wrote:


I beg your pardon? Blood Angels being anime?

Can you elaborate. As a Blood Angels player, I am having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say here..

Noooo they're not anime at all...

...they just sparkle in the sunlight, thats all.

SamusDrake wrote:

 tauist wrote:


I beg your pardon? Blood Angels being anime?

Can you elaborate. As a Blood Angels player, I am having a hard time understanding what you are trying to say here..

Noooo they're not anime at all...

...they just sparkle in the sunlight, thats all.

That's not an anime convention for vampires, that's literally a Western invention by an American author.

 Platuan4th wrote:


That's not an anime convention for vampires, that's literally a Western invention by an American author.

We're having fun with the Blood Angels player, who doesn't take kindly to their badass dracula marines being referred to as anime "pretty boys". Insinuating that they might be Twilight vampires is even more unforgivable!

I'm just glad that we're finally getting official rules for Blood Angels that fell to Chaos

SamusDrake wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:


That's not an anime convention for vampires, that's literally a Western invention by an American author.

We're having fun with the Blood Angels player, who doesn't take kindly to their badass dracula marines being referred to as anime "pretty boys". Insinuating that they might be Twilight vampires is even more unforgivable!

When anime was mentioned I was hoping someone was talking about DIO/Dio Brando style Vampires and not making the same tired redditor sparkle joke for the 500th time - but hope is the first step on the way to disappointment.

 blood reaper wrote:


When anime was mentioned I was hoping someone was talking about DIO/Dio Brando style Vampires and not making the same tired redditor sparkle joke for the 500th time - but hope is the first step on the way to disappointment.

What a drag that must be...

Rules entirely aside? I’m just stoked my resin hating arse can now get involved in Heresy properly.