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 Rihgu wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
... it's instead near completely based around "Creed's Daughter with Creeds stuff to replace Creed" without having her own interesting quirks too.

2x210 wrote:
The idea of having her be Creed 2.0 is dumb enough but literally giving her his gear is just icing on the cake of lame

What if that's the point? What if it's a commander taking on the trappings of Creed - even the name - in a propaganda effort, and that Creed never had a daughter but it's been so long since the Fall of Cadia, and all the records are gone, and Creed himself is gone, so no one will argue against the situation.

I have no issue with the idea. It's just that basing her identity almost entirely on being "Creed" again is in itself not enough to make her that interesting. I think wearing his ruined coat is a neat way to remember him and show a link to that important piece of Cadia, but having his laspistols as well while not having some own unique aspect to make her feel like her own person makes it feel a bit lacking. There are so many things they could have done to make it more than just Creed-but-not; some sort of bionics or scars and medals to show her supposed skill and combat history, maybe a personal memento of Cadia, some elaborate shoulder pads or gauntlets or boots to give her a bit more of a memorable uniform etc Like, more like this than just "Creed" again:

https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/warhammer40k/images/b/b3/Winter_Assult.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/1000?cb=20120122025404

Honestly the article even hints directly at what HBMC is saying.

Wait, could that be her father’s battered old greatcoat? But wasn’t he wearing that when Cadia fell?

Us steeped in Warhammer 40k lore know that not only was he wearing it when Cadia fell, but Trazyn scooped him up when Cadia fell. For that to be his actual greatcoat is nearly if not completely impossible. It's far more likely for her to be an imposter with fake gear running/propped up by a propaganda campaign. Bonus points if they reveal a new guy carrying a tattered flag... oh... is that... the very same one Color Sergeant Kell held??? AMAZING!

Some guy in the morale branch probably got extra rations for coming up with this idea.

That's a good point, actually.
It would be funny if there's a bit of fluff where Trazyn is chatting with Creed over tea (he seems be the sort of Necron to have a conversation with his "guests") and brings up Creed's daughter, and Creed's like "What? I don't have a bloody daughter. What you are talking about you demented tin can?"

Dudeface wrote:

CSM will almost certainly not land in June at this point, it'll be preorders go up last weekend in June as a guess, there's HH on the 18th, 2 sigmar books to get out for their recent box set, a couple of specialist odds and sods awaiting and CSM will likely be a multi-week release as a guess.

Personally, I think Squats will be the pre-christmas November release slot, WE will end up in Jan and then guard/Daemons sandwiching a September marine release. At this stage I think the Marine 2.0 thing is actually 10th 1.0.

Why do you think Squats will be so late if we're already getting rules previews now?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Geifer wrote:

chaos0xomega wrote:
By "grenadier" I take it you mean a special unit (or more) that is specific to a particular regiment, and not actual Stormtrooper equivalents? It doesn't make much sense for Catachans to have those, for instance. All that carapace armor messes with your ability to show off your killer abs.

This.

While it's possible for other types of unique named units for regiments, something like Catachan Devils, basically veteran Catachans with similar rules to Ork Kommandos. Not every named regiment has this luxury and I doubt GW are willing to spend the resources on every named regiment.

Not a fan of these new Kasrkin. Not a fan at all. They simply do not look correct.

Kasrkin wrote:
Not a fan of these new Kasrkin. Not a fan at all. They simply do not look correct.

What's wrong with them?

They look pretty great to me - almost enough for me to buy some jus to fiddle with. (Though I will probably just wait to see if vostroyans get a similar treatment next decade)

Kasrkin wrote:
Not a fan of these new Kasrkin. Not a fan at all. They simply do not look correct.

Outside of the highlights on top of highlights on top of highlights, what's wrong with them exactly?

Kasrkin wrote:
Not a fan of these new Kasrkin. Not a fan at all. They simply do not look correct.

Compared to the metal ones the shoulder pads and knee pads are less exaggerated, the helmet is a tough more rounded in places, and the rifle has a scope now.

*does double take*

Great googly moogly!

The scope is attached to a rail!

Not even Marines manage that.

The metal Kasrkins also have scopes, they're just on the side of their Hellguns instead of on the top.

Source: My metal Kasrkins.

I think they are pretty faithful (although upgraded with new design and moulding tech) reproductions of the originals. And in plastic!

That said (and as pointed out earlier this picture may be of a pre-production mini), the helmet seems a little small. Poor IG heads - from one extreme to another.

Carlovonsexron wrote:

Kasrkin wrote:
Not a fan of these new Kasrkin. Not a fan at all. They simply do not look correct.

What's wrong with them?

They look pretty great to me - almost enough for me to buy some jus to fiddle with. (Though I will probably just wait to see if vostroyans get a similar treatment next decade)

Same as with primaris, this dude actually has human anatomy, that is, doesn't miss half of his spine, has normal fists instead of ones bigger than his head under helmet, and doesn't have pelvis wider than his shoulders. I am still amazed GW old, ugly 'heroic' style can mess with multiple brains to a point they only accept something looking like a mix of gorilla and orangutan in proportions as 'correct', or in some really terminal cases, to corrupt it to such degree they start screeching seeing people enjoying new, actually correct and good looking, minis. Go figure

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
The scope is attached to a rail!

Not even Marines manage that.

Hmm...

Well done Irby! Your endlessly obsessive nitpicky mind who can't start a post without some variation of "Nu uh! You're wrong!" found a whole miniature, when clearly I was referring to these and these and these and especially these. Y'know, all the blatantly obvious examples where they don't use the rail but instead attach the scope to something else. But gold star. You were "right" again.

Proud of you!

Poor hbmc got cherry picked at and got mad.

Irony.

 Irbis wrote:

Same as with primaris, this dude actually has human anatomy, that is, doesn't miss half of his spine, has normal fists instead of ones bigger than his head under helmet, and doesn't have pelvis wider than his shoulders. I am still amazed GW old, ugly 'heroic' style can mess with multiple brains to a point they only accept something looking like a mix of gorilla and orangutan in proportions as 'correct', or in some really terminal cases, to corrupt it to such degree they start screeching seeing people enjoying new, actually correct and good looking, minis. Go figure

Nobody is 'screeching', and little is gained by waxing hyperbolic about negative comments.

And yes, while the point can certainly be made that some of the problem is people being used to 'heroic' proportions, the flip side of the argument would be that those heroic proportions have been used for so long because they work better for miniatures. Realistic proportions look more, well, realistic... but they're just not as impressive at scale.

I've been staring at the new Kasrkin trying to work out why I don't like it when it's clearly a perfectly competent sculpt, and I think it's a combination of the missing 'chunkiness' that gave the old models their air of bulky implacableness, and a myrid little details that on their own wouldn't be an issue but all combine to make the whole not work as well. The goggles are a slightly different shape, the air filters are larger, the helmet more formfitting and cut differently around the sides of the head, and so on. The end result is a nice looking, generic sci-fi figure that just doesn't seem to have the same character as the metal models it replaces.

Having said that, I suspect that anyone who never saw the original models, or those for whom more realistic proportions are a bigger deal, will be more than happy with them.

Quasistellar wrote:
Poor hbmc got cherry picked at and got mad.

Damn right I'm mad. Mad at someone who continues to show a staggering level of intellectual dishonesty and posts made in bad faith at every possible juncture. It's what Irby does. He goes hunting for absolute statements just to call people out. It's why most* of his posts start with some variation of "You're wrong". It's bizarre.

Really though I should be thankful. He's taught me to be more careful with my speech.

*And why I tend to say "most" and not "all", otherwise he'd jump in with a example of when it didn't happen.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
I both do and don't like the new Ursula model. I think it's a cool idea, and a quality looking model, but at the same time it feels like it's too heavily reliant on the previous creed. Like Ceed having the cigars, double laspistols, and coat over his shoulders all gave him his own unique feel and character, but there's not really anything particular about to give this new character her own sense of identity, it's instead near completely based around "Creed's Daughter with Creeds stuff to replace Creed" without having her own interesting quirks too.

Yeah, it could be an interesting concept, that of Creed's kid picking up his mantel, but in terms of personality she seems kind of dull.
You could just use her as a generic commander choice and it wouldn't seem out of place. In fact, I thought she was the replacement for the IG commander at first.
Wearing her father's coat was a neat idea that ties into the aforementioned concept, but it's just not enough.

It would have been more interesting if she had, I dunno, a big ol' rifle instead of two pistols, or a sword cane. Or both.
Maybe drinking from a bottle of wine. Creed was a smoker, so why not make her a drunk as a vice?

I get that it's a miniatures - based hobby, so gear is an important part of a character's personality... But when did it become the sole defining expression of a character's personality? Because "Gear" is pretty much all we know about her personality. We haven't seen her statline or her special rules, so we can't compare those to Papa Creed yet, but perhaps those will be places where we see divergences from Creed Senior...

Not to mention that we don't have her actual fluff yet either; we don't know how old she was when Papa Creed bit the dust, or how she escaped from Cadia. The article states she earned her rank, but we don't know anything about what is thought of her by the various factions of the Imperium: she's proven herself to the survivors of Cadia... But has she proven herself to the Ecclesiarchy? The High Lords? The Inquisition? Guilliman?

I think it's a little too early to make statements about a character's personality, or lack thereof.

Is the model visually distinct enough from Papa Creed? Possibly not...But this model seems to be carrying a hand weapon or rod of office that was not listed on Papa Creed's data sheet, she appears to be a non-smoker, and she has a different draw style than Creed Sr. The fact that her melee weapons are in hand as opposed to her just chillin for a smoke likely indicates that she's comfortable with enemies in her face in a way that her father's model did not. Fluff notwithstanding, when I look at her, I see a wizened warrior leading from the front; when I look at him, I see someone who is more at home telling other people what to do while he sits back and smokes because his best days of actual fighting are already in the rear view.

 insaniak wrote:

 Irbis wrote:

Same as with primaris, this dude actually has human anatomy, that is, doesn't miss half of his spine, has normal fists instead of ones bigger than his head under helmet, and doesn't have pelvis wider than his shoulders. I am still amazed GW old, ugly 'heroic' style can mess with multiple brains to a point they only accept something looking like a mix of gorilla and orangutan in proportions as 'correct', or in some really terminal cases, to corrupt it to such degree they start screeching seeing people enjoying new, actually correct and good looking, minis. Go figure

Nobody is 'screeching', and little is gained by waxing hyperbolic about negative comments.

And yes, while the point can certainly be made that some of the problem is people being used to 'heroic' proportions, the flip side of the argument would be that those heroic proportions have been used for so long because they work better for miniatures. Realistic proportions look more, well, realistic... but they're just not as impressive at scale.

I've been staring at the new Kasrkin trying to work out why I don't like it when it's clearly a perfectly competent sculpt, and I think it's a combination of the missing 'chunkiness' that gave the old models their air of bulky implacableness, and a myrid little details that on their own wouldn't be an issue but all combine to make the whole not work as well. The goggles are a slightly different shape, the air filters are larger, the helmet more formfitting and cut differently around the sides of the head, and so on. The end result is a nice looking, generic sci-fi figure that just doesn't seem to have the same character as the metal models it replaces.

Having said that, I suspect that anyone who never saw the original models, or those for whom more realistic proportions are a bigger deal, will be more than happy with them.

I've preferred more realistically scaled models since the early 00's when GW released the LotR range. It took me a little while to realise why I liked LotR models more than WHFB and 40k models, even though LotR models tend to not look as good in photos because the smaller faces are damned near impossible to paint well enough to look good in a zoomed in photo, on the table top I think they look much nicer. I also preferred the 6th edition Bretonnian models to the 7th edition ones which had the more bobble headed proportions. I dunno why "hero scale" became so popular, I'd probably guess that it's just easier to sculpt more detail onto a big head and big hands on a 28mm model, especially back in the day and especially when models are actually 25 to 28mm instead of 32mm like they are now.

Each to their own I guess. I don't think perfectly realistically scaled models are the ultimate, but somewhere between realistic and bobble heads is good. GW have been shifting in that direction, the recent vampires have been better scaled also.

That said, there is something I prefer about the older Kasrkin in this case... I'm struggling to put my finger on it but I think it's the shape of the head/helmet that isn't working for me. The old helmet was a bit broader at the top, the winged skull was bigger, and the brow line turned down at the edges of the helmet making the eyes a different shape.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
*does double take*

Great googly moogly!

The scope is attached to a rail!

Not even Marines manage that.

Picatinny rail survived until the 41st millennium. 38 thousand years.

Jarms48 wrote:
Picatinny rail survived until the 41st millennium. 38 thousand years.

Proving the Adeptus Mechanicus right: Do not mess with technology! Advancement isn't required.

it is hard to tell but the Kasrkin look off for some reason
looking again at the first pic that has the other models in the back I think it is the combination of the helmets and shoulder pads
the helmets have more rounded design, like older real life metal helmets and are too close the face compared old plastic cadians

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I dunno why "hero scale" became so popular, I'd probably guess that it's just easier to sculpt more detail onto a big head and big hands on a 28mm model, especially back in the day and especially when models are actually 25 to 28mm instead of 32mm like they are now.

Because not only was it easier to sculpt but also easier to cast in plastic (back than when you made a master model 2 times or 4 times bigger to get the real sized negativ mould in a hand crafted process), and calling this hero scale sound better than "not being able to do better"
hence the old metal Cadians/Catachans look better than the plastic ones but the argument back than was that at least he plastic was cheaper by a lot
and over time, with GW became popular their models became standard, 28mm instead of 25mm and "hero" scale plastic instead of realsitc scale metal

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
*does double take*
Great googly moogly!
The scope is attached to a rail!
Not even Marines manage that.

when people design guns who have no clue how guns work
I don't know what is worse, Marines not being able to mount equipment on the mountin rail or Marine pistols coming with folded stocks

 kodos wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
I dunno why "hero scale" became so popular, I'd probably guess that it's just easier to sculpt more detail onto a big head and big hands on a 28mm model, especially back in the day and especially when models are actually 25 to 28mm instead of 32mm like they are now.

Because not only was it easier to sculpt but also easier to cast in plastic (back than when you made a master model 2 times or 4 times bigger to get the real sized negativ mould in a hand crafted process), and calling this hero scale sound better than "not being able to do better"
hence the old metal Cadians/Catachans look better than the plastic ones but the argument back than was that at least he plastic was cheaper by a lot
and over time, with GW became popular their models became standard, 28mm instead of 25mm and "hero" scale plastic instead of realsitc scale metal

One thing I find kind of funny is that in other forms of art, "heroic scale" is the opposite, the head gets smaller (or stays the same) and the body gets bigger. Children have large heads relative to their bodies, and a "hero" would make a regular adult look a bit like a child by accentuating the natural proportional difference between adults and children.

Michelangelo's David is an exception in that he has a big head, but my understanding is that's because the artist wanted to portray David as being youthful rather than a Herculean hero type figure (I've also heard it's because he was designed to be viewed from below, but given where he was going to be mounted originally high up on a cathedral I think his head still would have looked oversized, and his hand which is down by his hips is also oversized).

But hero scale in wargaming is where your adults look like children because they're sculpted with children's proportions, lol.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:


That said, there is something I prefer about the older Kasrkin in this case... I'm struggling to put my finger on it but I think it's the shape of the head/helmet that isn't working for me. The old helmet was a bit broader at the top, the winged skull was bigger, and the brow line turned down at the edges of the helmet making the eyes a different shape.

The only thing I actively dislike are the ankles / lower shin area but that might be just this one model. They look strange. The kneepads are worse than before too, and that bit of leather under the pad isn't working for me, but the knees aren't awful. Everything else seems fair to good.

 kodos wrote:
Because not only was it easier to sculpt but also easier to cast in plastic (back than when you made a master model 2 times or 4 times bigger to get the real sized negativ mould in a hand crafted process), and calling this hero scale sound better than "not being able to do better"

That's a slightly simplistic and negative take on it, though. It's not just that it's easier to cast and sculpt, but also makes for more durable models. 'Heroically' scaled weapons are more durable, particularly back when they were made from lead, but require the hands to be oversized in order to hold them. Oversized hands mean the head also has to be oversized, or the models all just look gorillas. From there, everything else gets enlarged or thickened to keep the model looking something vaguely approaching human, if a stylised, slightly chibi version of it.

Additionally, having weapons oversized makes for easier identification from across the table, and as someone else mentioned a couple of posts back, the exaggerated facial features are easier for casual painters.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:
One thing I find kind of funny is that in other forms of art, "heroic scale" is the opposite, the head gets smaller (or stays the same) and the body gets bigger. Children have large heads relative to their bodies, and a "hero" would make a regular adult look a bit like a child by accentuating the natural proportional difference between adults and children.

Michelangelo's David is an exception in that he has a big head, but my understanding is that's because the artist wanted to portray David as being youthful rather than a Herculean hero type figure (I've also heard it's because he was designed to be viewed from below, but given where he was going to be mounted originally high up on a cathedral I think his head still would have looked oversized, and his hand which is down by his hips is also oversized)..

David is out of proportion because it was meant to be mounted on top of the roof and given the size of the statue and the height of the building, he would have looked right from below (combined with being portrayed as a youthful type)
this is something we find a lot on statues that were meant to be mounted on churches, longer bodies with oversized heads so they would look normal from below

and agree on the other hero scale, as the head does not grow as much compared to the body and when you train your body the head stays the same while the muscles around grow, so a smaller head but broad body makes a person look stronger (this is specially seen on some later greek art (hellenistic style), were they went away from a realistic portrayal to oversized heroic one)
this is also why old plastic Space Marines look off, the head is way too big compared to the body hence why Primaris kept the same sized heads

Jarms48 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

CSM will almost certainly not land in June at this point, it'll be preorders go up last weekend in June as a guess, there's HH on the 18th, 2 sigmar books to get out for their recent box set, a couple of specialist odds and sods awaiting and CSM will likely be a multi-week release as a guess.

Personally, I think Squats will be the pre-christmas November release slot, WE will end up in Jan and then guard/Daemons sandwiching a September marine release. At this stage I think the Marine 2.0 thing is actually 10th 1.0.

Why do you think Squats will be so late if we're already getting rules previews now?

Rules wise we've seen the stat line of the basic trooper and that's it right? But the article referred to "find out more in the coming months" so it's not just round the corner. They previewed the base stats before the chaos legionary profile and CSM are still nowhere to be seen either.

CSM models will likely be July, they don't tend to do big range refreshes for one system back to back, so that's August out. September is the reasonable earliest for Squats, but I suspect putting them out before guard/Daemons will probably be a bad PR move (so quite likely).

 insaniak wrote:

 kodos wrote:
Because not only was it easier to sculpt but also easier to cast in plastic (back than when you made a master model 2 times or 4 times bigger to get the real sized negativ mould in a hand crafted process), and calling this hero scale sound better than "not being able to do better"

That's a slightly simplistic and negative take on it, though. It's not just that it's easier to cast and sculpt, but also makes for more durable models.

we had GW models with hands bigger than the heads by a time other manufacturer were able to make proper scaled models were heads and hands were scaled to match
and yes, there was a learning process with the first models in plastic being mono-pose one piece models that allows different sculpts than multi-pose multi-piece models

there was a reason for it why you would to it, specially to not have weapons that break easily, but GW models had a time when they simply were bad sculpted and "heroic" was used as an excuse (just compare the Dark Elves that were made around the same the Perry Empire models were made) and the only reason why it was accepted was because the plastic replacement was way cheaper than the metal models

Dudeface wrote:

Jarms48 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

CSM will almost certainly not land in June at this point, it'll be preorders go up last weekend in June as a guess, there's HH on the 18th, 2 sigmar books to get out for their recent box set, a couple of specialist odds and sods awaiting and CSM will likely be a multi-week release as a guess.

Personally, I think Squats will be the pre-christmas November release slot, WE will end up in Jan and then guard/Daemons sandwiching a September marine release. At this stage I think the Marine 2.0 thing is actually 10th 1.0.

Why do you think Squats will be so late if we're already getting rules previews now?

Rules wise we've seen the stat line of the basic trooper and that's it right? But the article referred to "find out more in the coming months" so it's not just round the corner. They previewed the base stats before the chaos legionary profile and CSM are still nowhere to be seen either.

CSM models will likely be July, they don't tend to do big range refreshes for one system back to back, so that's August out. September is the reasonable earliest for Squats, but I suspect putting them out before guard/Daemons will probably be a bad PR move (so quite likely).

I'm sure Squats will release as a big Sisters / Templars -style army box toward the end of the year, with a codex and a few models, with the full release not until 2023, after all the 'old' armies have been updated.

So how long until we get the only daughter that matters - Slyanne Marbo?

 Shadow Walker wrote:
So how long until we get the only daughter that matters - Slyanne Marbo?

Vic Minis has you covered: https://victoriaminiatures.com/products/sylvia-brando

 insaniak wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:
So how long until we get the only daughter that matters - Slyanne Marbo?

Vic Minis has you covered: https://victoriaminiatures.com/products/sylvia-brando

And don't forget Lady Creedance

https://victoriaminiatures.com/collections/character-miniatures/products/lady-high-commander-creedence



Serving the Imperium since 2018, I wonder if Victoria Lamb will sue?

Lady Creedence does not look like a bad ass. Ursula Creed does.

Ursula looks like Clare Balding with a powersword. She looks like she'd take a running start at kicking Abaddon so hard in the tadger for blowing up Cadia that his groin plate would shatter like the planet's crust.

Maybe Cawl will make her a Blackstone boot just for that purpose.