Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Honestly I'm usually one of the last people saying stuff like this but the rough riders seem to be a little over tuned conveniently on a new kit. They're humans, why are they base s4? Why do they have a lance, pistol and gun? Being core with the ignoring movement penalties, fast, reasonable ws, save and 2w and versatile melee weapons that are conveniently s8 is a little bit of a good package.

1. The Horse. Has to be the horse
2. Because that is want is on the models.
3. That is pretty nice!

Famous "remarks made before in-codex synergies are revealed", but the field ordinance batteries look kind of sad if the rumoured 70 points price tag is correct.

Overpowered rough riders, the new AoS character being the only way to issue orders to certain units (and doing it with extreme efficiency), GW isn't exactly being subtle about making the new kits a mandatory purchase.

People do understand that rough riders can be move blocked right? I'd argue Cavalry has to be over tuned because otherwise they never get there. Also honestly they're 5pts cheaper than Ork Squig Cav which are tougher, more wounds, same save, 2" slower, can advance and charge, can do mortals, and have similar if not more attacks.

And they aren't lighting up the boards and haven't been since they came out. That cavalry key word is a bastard.

Dudeface wrote:
Honestly I'm usually one of the last people saying stuff like this but the rough riders seem to be a little over tuned conveniently on a new kit. They're humans, why are they base s4? Why do they have a lance, pistol and gun? Being core with the ignoring movement penalties, fast, reasonable ws, save and 2w and versatile melee weapons that are conveniently s8 is a little bit of a good package.

I'm not gonna question it.
I'm just gonna ride the cybernetic tiger.

Aecus Decimus wrote:
Overpowered rough riders, the new AoS character being the only way to issue orders to certain units (and doing it with extreme efficiency), GW isn't exactly being subtle about making the new kits a mandatory purchase.

That's impossible, that implies the Votaan were poorly designed too!

EviscerationPlague wrote:
That's impossible, that implies the Votaan were poorly designed too!

Sorry, I didn't mean to imply any such thing. Let me clarify and say it explicitly: SQUATS WERE POORLY DESIGNED.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Rules preview.

Horses got the last neigh afterall

So, if I see it correctly, Sergeant can be 'model' who takes the goad and throws multiple mortal wounds on any vehicle that passes by?

Also I like his cheap sabre is not only strictly better than master crafted power swords Bladeguard have, but is also better than priceless, one of a kind relic sword Leontus has. Immersion!

Kinda sad RR lost their special weapons, but if they could also do drive-by-melta on the way in the unit could be a little too good...

Do we think those guardsmen are the same size/on the same size bases as the existing ones?

 Billagio wrote:
Do we think those guardsmen are the same size/on the same size bases as the existing ones?

Guardsmen are on 25mm.
Command figures and Kasrkin are on bigger bases.

 Irbis wrote:


Kinda sad RR lost their special weapons, but if they could also do drive-by-melta on the way in the unit could be a little too good...

Yeah, I could hear the screaming in my head about it from an alternate reality where they were allowed to keep them. While I'm sad that I once again have illegal models, at least the rest are decently good now.

 cuda1179 wrote:

 Irbis wrote:


Kinda sad RR lost their special weapons, but if they could also do drive-by-melta on the way in the unit could be a little too good...

Yeah, I could hear the screaming in my head about it from an alternate reality where they were allowed to keep them. While I'm sad that I once again have illegal models, at least the rest are decently good now.

I don't think it would have been a big deal. You had to give up the lance to take a special weapon and TBH with those lance stats I don't think it would even be a good idea from a list optimization point of view. It's pretty clearly a "no model no rules" thing, not a balance decision.

Dudeface wrote:
Honestly I'm usually one of the last people saying stuff like this but the rough riders seem to be a little over tuned conveniently on a new kit. They're humans, why are they base s4? Why do they have a lance, pistol and gun? Being core with the ignoring movement penalties, fast, reasonable ws, save and 2w and versatile melee weapons that are conveniently s8 is a little bit of a good package.

Well it is standard practice that new kits are a bit better so that they sell and that is with about every codex release. Afterwards we are always seeing nerfs if things are OP.

I don't really see them that over powered. Yes they shine under very isolated conditions. In the end though, they still suffer from their low survivability and that if they get charged first, their profile looks a lot less interesting. That has been the case since forever. The only new thing is, that they can potentially threaten vehicles. Still you can hard counter them by: a) simply shooting them, T4 2W 4+ for 20pts, that is a lot worse than MEQ. b) screen your valuable units with cheap chaff, because the Cavalry is on large bases and can't fly. Or c) Assassinate them with Jump Units that are a lot more mobile and will utterly wreck them. Rough Riders don't have any of those fancy Strike First/if charged count as having charged rules after all.

And that is exactly how they've been dealt with even back in 3rd.

Yes Leroy Arcadia is a powerful multiplier, but he is also a massive points sink and in top 1 per army. And he does nothing to amend any of the weaknesses I listed.

And also, complaining that they have las pistols and lasrifles? Did I miss something? The las rifle is still utter crap and if the target has decently durable profile, probably not worth your lifetime to even go through the hassle of shooting it in the first place.

For me they seem reasonably strong to be taken and a considerable threat that can't be ignored in target priority. But neither death star potential, nor without weakness, just as they should be for their function.

New kit overpowered? Like da flyers? Tau flyers? Mork/gorkanaut? Primaris line?

Nice myth you keep spreading

 GiToRaZor wrote:
b) screen your valuable units with cheap chaff

How do you profitably screen something that can kill your chaff for 100 points? At 20ppm rough riders are going to trade at least neutrally and probably somewhat favorably even if they're "only" wiping all your chaff off the table. And not all armies even have chaff that can stand in front of your real army and die without taking up an excessive amount of points.

Yes Leroy Arcadia is a powerful multiplier, but he is also a massive points sink and in top 1 per army.

180 points is hardly a "massive point sink", especially when you're getting three standard officers worth of orders plus the ability to give orders to things that can't normally receive them plus a change of objectives or +1 CP. Even ignoring the combat stats he compares pretty favorably to his points in normal officers and he does it from a single FOC slot. And there's still the possibility that he unlocks storm troopers as troops like the leaks suggested, adding even more value. He's going to be an auto-include in almost every army at 180 points.

And also, complaining that they have las pistols and lasrifles? Did I miss something?

Not from a balance point of view, it's just a stupid concept that these guys are carrying 3-4 different weapons and somehow managing to swap between a two-handed rifle and a lance in the middle of a charge.

Talking of just targeting down the RR isn't potentially a valid tactic, however they won't be that hard to kill, if you can kill a marine with each, you can them without taking up other firepower you need to neutralise other threats.

Anyway, back to my point, there's a rumoured regiment trait or stratagem where you can mass outflank (anything) from turn 2 without normal restrictions. So outflanking these into your enemies deployment zone, Turn 2.

Not from a balance point of view, it's just a stupid concept that these guys are carrying 3-4 different weapons and somehow managing to swap between a two-handed rifle and a lance in the middle of a charge.

What you are failing to grasp with this last point is that this game is abstract. It is also not a wargame. These are game pieces that people give attributes to.

General Hobbs wrote:

Not from a balance point of view, it's just a stupid concept that these guys are carrying 3-4 different weapons and somehow managing to swap between a two-handed rifle and a lance in the middle of a charge.

What you are failing to grasp with this last point is that this game is abstract. It is also not a wargame. These are game pieces that people give attributes to.

Where does the 12ft melta lance go while they fire an assault rifle 2 handed whilst riding horses at full pelt?

Same place a Mongol lancer's lance goes when he fires his bow I'd imagine.

tneva82 wrote:
New kit overpowered? Like da flyers? Tau flyers? Mork/gorkanaut? Primaris line?

Nice myth you keep spreading

You're denying it has happened though. I mean, we had literal proof of the example with Wraithknights. Sometimes GW thinks their unit might actually be broken too with how they choose to play as well.

To pretend they've actually changed because they have social media now is just denial.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
New kit overpowered? Like da flyers? Tau flyers? Mork/gorkanaut? Primaris line?

Nice myth you keep spreading

You're denying it has happened though. I mean, we had literal proof of the example with Wraithknights. Sometimes GW thinks their unit might actually be broken too with how they choose to play as well.

To pretend they've actually changed because they have social media now is just denial.

The claim was that all new kits are overpowered, plenty of evidence to show that they're not. Some are, but it's not a high enough % to suggest it's intentional.

Edit: I'm aware of the wraithknight thing, I know that will happen sometimes as well, but all that management team are gone as far as we know.

 Irbis wrote:
So, if I see it correctly, Sergeant can be 'model' who takes the goad and throws multiple mortal wounds on any vehicle that passes by?

Also I like his cheap sabre is not only strictly better than master crafted power swords Bladeguard have, but is also better than priceless, one of a kind relic sword Leontus has. Immersion!

Kinda sad RR lost their special weapons, but if they could also do drive-by-melta on the way in the unit could be a little too good...

Until the inevitable FAQ yeah he can take the goad. He can also take both the goad and power sabre together, and if the so far very accurate leaks are true, upgrade the sabre to a +2A relic sabre for the equivalent of 8 attacks that hit like powerfists on the charge with extra mortals on vehicles..

EviscerationPlague wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
New kit overpowered? Like da flyers? Tau flyers? Mork/gorkanaut? Primaris line?

Nice myth you keep spreading

You're denying it has happened though. I mean, we had literal proof of the example with Wraithknights. Sometimes GW thinks their unit might actually be broken too with how they choose to play as well.

To pretend they've actually changed because they have social media now is just denial.

The original source of that rumour literally said that the sales manager responsible for the decision had since left GW, and that they hadn't heard of anything similar happening after that.

Funny how people don't quote that part of it though.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Yeah... how does that launcher not fire indirectly?

Sculptor guy: Hey, look! We made these artillery pieces for the Astral Guard.
Fluff guy: Astra Militarum.
Sculptor guy: Come again? Anyway, we've redone the Cadians and added an AT gun, a howitzer and a multiple rocket launcher.
Rules guy: That's two indirect fire weapons. We probably shouldn't have that many of those.
Sculptor guy: Well, then just don't make both of them indirect fire.
Fluff guy: I mean, that's kind of how those rocket launchers work and what's the point of a howitzer if it doesn't shoot things it can't see?
Rules guy: I suppose we could make the rocket launcher indirect and make the distinction between the AT gun and howitzer revolve around focused damage versus blast.
Sculptor guy: There, problem solved.
Fluff guy: No, it's not. I have this really cool story in mind for the howitzer that involves indirect fire.
Rules guy: Just use the rocket launcher instead?
Fluff guy: No listen, that doesn't work. That thing goes whoosh whoosh whoosh kaboom! I really need a crack kaboom! It doesn't work any other way. It's got to be the howitzer.
Rules guy: Oh, come on!
Fluff guy: I. Need. Crack.
Sculptor guy: Don't we all?
Rules guy: I sure do now...
Fluff guy: It's settled then! Crack for everyone and indirect fire for the howitzer!
Rules guy: Whatever. Just give me my fix.

Dudeface wrote:

General Hobbs wrote:

Not from a balance point of view, it's just a stupid concept that these guys are carrying 3-4 different weapons and somehow managing to swap between a two-handed rifle and a lance in the middle of a charge.

What you are failing to grasp with this last point is that this game is abstract. It is also not a wargame. These are game pieces that people give attributes to.

Where does the 12ft melta lance go while they fire an assault rifle 2 handed whilst riding horses at full pelt?

Haven't we determined that since humans are S3, S4 must represent the horse? Logic dictates that melee weapons that add to the bearer's strength are used by the part of the model that contributes the strength characteristic. Horses don't have hands, therefore it follows that the lance is held with the horse's teeth. That also leaves the rider free to fire his lasgun and pistol akimbo.

It's science! And probably featured on an 80s metal album cover, which makes everything better!

 Geifer wrote:


Sculptor guy: Hey, look! We made these artillery pieces for the Astral Guard.
Fluff guy: Astra Militarum.
Sculptor guy: Come again? Anyway, we've redone the Cadians and added an AT gun, a howitzer and a multiple rocket launcher.
Rules guy: That's two indirect fire weapons. We probably shouldn't have that many of those.
Sculptor guy: Well, then just don't make both of them indirect fire.
Fluff guy: I mean, that's kind of how those rocket launchers work and what's the point of a howitzer if it doesn't shoot things it can't see?
Rules guy: I suppose we could make the rocket launcher indirect and make the distinction between the AT gun and howitzer revolve around focused damage versus blast.
Sculptor guy: There, problem solved.
Fluff guy: No, it's not. I have this really cool story in mind for the howitzer that involves indirect fire.
Rules guy: Just use the rocket launcher instead?
Fluff guy: No listen, that doesn't work. That thing goes whoosh whoosh whoosh kaboom! I really need a crack kaboom! It doesn't work any other way. It's got to be the howitzer.
Rules guy: Oh, come on!
Fluff guy: I. Need. Crack.
Sculptor guy: Don't we all?
Rules guy: I sure do now...
Fluff guy: It's settled then! Crack for everyone and indirect fire for the howitzer!
Rules guy: Whatever. Just give me my fix.

Don't think that'll ever happen. Sculptor guy has a nice corner offfice and juicy shares, fluff guy is an aged, overweight nerd in a tiny cubicle after manning a GW store in Backwater UK, happy to have a somewhat reliable contract at least, while rules guy is an unpaid intern in the basement, working for a free Primaris a week.

Hierarchy at GW is a bitch

Also entirely made up in your example.

If you need to lie to make your point, maybe just….don’t?

i'd have prefered it, if we could've gotten rough riders without lances and then bought the lances if we wanted too... but options are not okay, okay!


but no, all rough riders are lancers and dragoons at the same time. Their profile thoigh is pretty nuts.
2 additional hits for a hit with the frag lance, ergo 3 generate 12 hits on average?

Also i like that the new plastic artillery is somehow superior to the classic thuddguns and heavy mortars which are a far more imposing callibre model wise but i guess fair is fair.

Most weapons are getting inflated, with older units getting left behind. A shadowsword tank now mounts a better volcano cannon than a reaver titan. At least we are starting to see a move towards toughness starting to increase to improve survivability without needing a ton of special saves or rules, with scout sentinels now at 6 and heavy tanks at 9.