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I've been thinking an interesting fix for Deathstrikes is to make them target reserves- make the launcher automatically go off on turn 3 (if alive), and roll a D6 for every unit the opponent has in reserve- on a 2+ the unit dies or something along those lines. Forces the opponent to limit their strategic options or focus fire early on an otherwise useless unit.

Maybe let them score VPs if the opponent has no reserves when they instead target rear areas.

 generalchaos34 wrote:
Grenade launchers need a niche, every other special weapon has a niche. Plasma is elite, melta for tanks, sniper for characters, flamers for clearing groups. I think in order to have a reason to exist grenade launchers need something special. Maybe a smoke/flash grenade profile, or they can ignore LOS. Better yet have it cause some sort of "pinning" type of effect. As it stands they are terrible all around, at least back in the day they were cheap.

Exactly, that was the GL "niche." It can do either elite or swarm, but poorly.

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:Can you lot take the grenade launcher talk elsewhere? Go start a thread in Proposed Rules or whatever.

If you'd like I can change the title of this thread to "Astra Militarum Rumors and Grenade Launcher hate Fest" so it's clearer.

COOL DEAL!

Okay, since off-topic wishlisting(because that's what is really happening) for the next book is apparently a-okay for rumors on the book going up for preorder on Saturday:

Break things into "Specialist" and "Special" Weapons.

Specialist Weapons would be things like Sniper Rifles, Meltaguns, Demolition Charges, Heavy Flamers, and Plasma Guns. Things that ostensibly get a bit of extra training for the operators or have a bit more value overall. Specialist Weapons in a standard Infantry Squad could be put onto two models instead of a Heavy Weapon Team and would feature something additional to make the usage of said item more interesting or unique, but only when taken in pairs.

IE:
Taking Sniper Rifles would grant your Infantry Squad the "Forward Observer" keyword, letting artillery get a single reroll for a turn if the target is visible to the Infantry Squad without having to burn a stratagem to do so.
Demolition Charges would let you remove Objective Markers from play, if a specific action is performed and completed.
Meltaguns taken in tandem would grant Krak Grenades to the Infantry Squad and let them count as being 6 models for the purposes of resolving Blast Weapons fired at them by Vehicles or Monsters.
Plasma Guns give the squad a medic.
Heavy Flamers would let you treat their targets as being affected by Blast weapons for the purposes of numbers of models in the unit.

Special Weapons would be two to a squad, any combinations you want. Flamers, Boltguns, and Grenade Launchers.

There is an argument able to be made in any regards for opening up two different types of Grenade Launchers as options. I don't know exactly how I would treat it myself, but doing the drum-fed variant as a Specialist Weapon while the M79 style breach-action is a Special Weapon wouldn't be wildly outlandish.

And then, for giggles and gaks, make it so the Regimental units get to pick certain Specialist Weapons as Special choices as well as Specialist ones. Give Sergeants access to Specials, Specialist, and their usual fare of weapons.

Bam. Enjoy your converting fun.

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Hence why GW needs to start looking at utility uses for those lower end weapons. If you gave them interesting effects, they'd get used.

And giving weapons points values so that you don't just automatically take the best of everything because it's free.

They are such morons...

We're still pretending that people outside of fluffbunnies took some of these choices? Coolcoolcool

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Hence why GW needs to start looking at utility uses for those lower end weapons. If you gave them interesting effects, they'd get used.

And giving weapons points values so that you don't just automatically take the best of everything because it's free.

They are such morons...

To be fair they've demonstrably shown for many editions the tiny points range they allow for special weapons costs isn't enough given the profiles they have. There isn't a big enough variance for "don't take the best", you could have 10pt plasma/melta and flamer/gl be free and I dare say people would still be 100% paid upgrades or 0%.

Dudeface wrote:
To be fair they've demonstrably shown for many editions the tiny points range they allow for special weapons costs isn't enough given the profiles they have. There isn't a big enough variance for "don't take the best", you could have 10pt plasma/melta and flamer/gl be free and I dare say people would still be 100% paid upgrades or 0%.

So let's all give up and go home?

This isn't a binary issue. Points, as I've been saying for years, are not the great leveller. You cannot make Grenade Launchers good just by making them cheap (or free) or by artificially boosting the costs of Meltas and Plasmas. But these are two separate issues:

1. Upgrades should cost points that are commensurate with their utility/power.
2. Grenade Launchers don't have any utility, and this should be addressed.

Fixing one doesn't fix the other. Both must be resolved. I'd even go so far as to say that the Missile Launcher is in a similar boat for the Guard.

 Kanluwen wrote:
We're still pretending that people outside of fluffbunnies took some of these choices? Coolcoolcool

Still pretending that points don't matter? This ain't Who's Line, Kan.

I miss grenades. I'd probably miss even with a grenade. There used to be lots of different grenades. Launchers for them were good, they just extended the range you could throw grenades. Grenades.

Have there been any rumours as to what Guard will get for Crusade games?

 Kanluwen wrote:
We're still pretending that people outside of fluffbunnies took some of these choices? Coolcoolcool

I took 4 Hotshot Volleys in two squads before as objective campers. What's your point?

 Kanluwen wrote:

Demolition Charges would let you remove Objective Markers from play, if a specific action is performed and completed.

This is a great idea. Impracticable for the current game due to the way scoring is balanced if it were IG only, but really cool none the less.

M.

 Kanluwen wrote:
We're still pretending that people outside of fluffbunnies took some of these choices? Coolcoolcool

"It's ok that other people had their armies invalidated because it doesn't hurt my own army."

No.

Scions are looking to be awesome on account of their warlord traits alone. That's something to be excited for.

Does anybody know, does the review embargo for the new codex lift on the pre-order date (tomorrow my time) or a week from now, following the first week of pre-orders?

diepotato47 wrote:
Does anybody know, does the review embargo for the new codex lift on the pre-order date (tomorrow my time) or a week from now, following the first week of pre-orders?

Usually on pre-order date.

Make grenade launchers in addition to special weapons, zero cost and allowed 1x in each squad.

You then have the choice between a grenade launcher and a lasgun, but not a grenade launcher and a plasma, melta etc.

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Make grenade launchers in addition to special weapons, zero cost and allowed 1x in each squad.

You then have the choice between a grenade launcher and a lasgun, but not a grenade launcher and a plasma, melta etc.

Mandated or allowed? You're back to "that's not really a choice" territory.

H.B.M.C. is 100% correct that the weapon is lacking and point need adjusting in conjunction.

Egh even if it was the only free wpn the grenade launcher isn’t auto include… there is so much that improves lasguns you may just want a lasgun instead.. like a Cadian shock troop with frfsrf in rapid range.

gungo wrote:
Egh even if it was the only free wpn the grenade launcher isn’t auto include… there is so much that improves lasguns you may just want a lasgun instead.. like a Cadian shock troop with frfsrf in rapid range.

That was true in the past, but FRFSRF now makes laguns heavy 3, and a frag grenade does 3.5 lasgun equivalent shots on average (with blast upping that potential).

KillerAngel wrote:

gungo wrote:
Egh even if it was the only free wpn the grenade launcher isn’t auto include… there is so much that improves lasguns you may just want a lasgun instead.. like a Cadian shock troop with frfsrf in rapid range.

That was true in the past, but FRFSRF now makes laguns heavy 3, and a frag grenade does 3.5 lasgun equivalent shots on average (with blast upping that potential).

FRFSRF is still better on shock troops unless maximum blast is in effect due to the bonus hits on las weapons. Should average at 2 hits per las weapon vs 1.75 per frag. If you're going down the volume of fire path for the new version of hammer of the emperor it's relevant I guess.

You can still only throw one grenade, right? So why not just make the grenade launcher a squad ability that allows you to throw a grenade at 24"?
The grenade launcher model would just an reminder to show that the squad does have that ability. Sort of like how Orks are all meant to have grenades, but you don't have the bits to give everyone a nade.

As it's just an ability it doesn't take up any special weapon slots.

KillerAngel wrote:

gungo wrote:
Egh even if it was the only free wpn the grenade launcher isn’t auto include… there is so much that improves lasguns you may just want a lasgun instead.. like a Cadian shock troop with frfsrf in rapid range.

That was true in the past, but FRFSRF now makes laguns heavy 3,

Huh. How does 'First Rank' interact with the parade drill regimental doctrine that sets 'remains stationary' lasguns to heavy 2?
Does this codex have built in anti-synergy, or is it a list of terms, conditions and exceptions?

 Insularum wrote:

KillerAngel wrote:

gungo wrote:
Egh even if it was the only free wpn the grenade launcher isn’t auto include… there is so much that improves lasguns you may just want a lasgun instead.. like a Cadian shock troop with frfsrf in rapid range.

That was true in the past, but FRFSRF now makes laguns heavy 3, and a frag grenade does 3.5 lasgun equivalent shots on average (with blast upping that potential).

FRFSRF is still better on shock troops unless maximum blast is in effect due to the bonus hits on las weapons. Should average at 2 hits per las weapon vs 1.75 per frag. If you're going down the volume of fire path for the new version of hammer of the emperor it's relevant I guess.

Do you have to remain stationary to get that benefit with FRFSRF? Grenade launchers at least retain mobility.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Voss wrote:

KillerAngel wrote:

gungo wrote:
Egh even if it was the only free wpn the grenade launcher isn’t auto include… there is so much that improves lasguns you may just want a lasgun instead.. like a Cadian shock troop with frfsrf in rapid range.

That was true in the past, but FRFSRF now makes laguns heavy 3,

Huh. How does 'First Rank' interact with the parade drill regimental doctrine that sets 'remains stationary' lasguns to heavy 2?
Does this codex have built in anti-synergy, or is it a list of terms, conditions and exceptions?

I was thinking parade drill should make FRFSRF heavy 4, but it appears that parade drill is largely superceded by the order.

Dudeface wrote:

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Make grenade launchers in addition to special weapons, zero cost and allowed 1x in each squad.

You then have the choice between a grenade launcher and a lasgun, but not a grenade launcher and a plasma, melta etc.

Mandated or allowed? You're back to "that's not really a choice" territory.

H.B.M.C. is 100% correct that the weapon is lacking and point need adjusting in conjunction.

?

I'm not mandating anything, it would be an option. You could still take your plasma, flamer, melta etc (or multiple if the squad allows) you can then in addition choose to upgrade a squad member to have a grenade launcher. If you want to keep your lasgun, then you are all good.

 Insularum wrote:

KillerAngel wrote:

gungo wrote:
Egh even if it was the only free wpn the grenade launcher isn’t auto include… there is so much that improves lasguns you may just want a lasgun instead.. like a Cadian shock troop with frfsrf in rapid range.

That was true in the past, but FRFSRF now makes laguns heavy 3, and a frag grenade does 3.5 lasgun equivalent shots on average (with blast upping that potential).

FRFSRF is still better on shock troops unless maximum blast is in effect due to the bonus hits on las weapons. Should average at 2 hits per las weapon vs 1.75 per frag. If you're going down the volume of fire path for the new version of hammer of the emperor it's relevant I guess.

How is a heavy 3 weapon hitting twice at bs 4+?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 endlesswaltz123 wrote:
Make grenade launchers in addition to special weapons, zero cost and allowed 1x in each squad.

You then have the choice between a grenade launcher and a lasgun, but not a grenade launcher and a plasma, melta etc.

Mandated or allowed? You're back to "that's not really a choice" territory.

H.B.M.C. is 100% correct that the weapon is lacking and point need adjusting in conjunction.

?

I'm not mandating anything, it would be an option. You could still take your plasma, flamer, melta etc (or multiple if the squad allows) you can then in addition choose to upgrade a squad member to have a grenade launcher. If you want to keep your lasgun, then you are all good.

See above, there's nearly no situation where the lasgun is worth taking for any reason beyond fluff/visuals, you're right it is a choice to make still but there is a fixed right/wrong one in games terms.

Dudeface wrote:

 Insularum wrote:

KillerAngel wrote:

gungo wrote:
Egh even if it was the only free wpn the grenade launcher isn’t auto include… there is so much that improves lasguns you may just want a lasgun instead.. like a Cadian shock troop with frfsrf in rapid range.

That was true in the past, but FRFSRF now makes laguns heavy 3, and a frag grenade does 3.5 lasgun equivalent shots on average (with blast upping that potential).

FRFSRF is still better on shock troops unless maximum blast is in effect due to the bonus hits on las weapons. Should average at 2 hits per las weapon vs 1.75 per frag. If you're going down the volume of fire path for the new version of hammer of the emperor it's relevant I guess.

How is a heavy 3 weapon hitting twice at bs 4+?

Shock troopers have exploding 6's to hit on las weapons.
3 shots at 4+ = 1.5 hits
3 shots with 1/6 chance of exploding = 0.5 extra hits

It's all moot though, as you take either a plasma or melta regardless of las being better than frag.

 Haighus wrote:
I've been thinking an interesting fix for Deathstrikes is to make them target reserves- make the launcher automatically go off on turn 3 (if alive), and roll a D6 for every unit the opponent has in reserve- on a 2+ the unit dies or something along those lines. Forces the opponent to limit their strategic options or focus fire early on an otherwise useless unit.

Maybe let them score VPs if the opponent has no reserves when they instead target rear areas.

It also lets you...........fire into a combat with your own troops? LMAO

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
To be fair they've demonstrably shown for many editions the tiny points range they allow for special weapons costs isn't enough given the profiles they have. There isn't a big enough variance for "don't take the best", you could have 10pt plasma/melta and flamer/gl be free and I dare say people would still be 100% paid upgrades or 0%.

So let's all give up and go home?

I mean, consider the advantages. I'm the living proof, ever since I stopped entertaining the notion of playing 40k again, I became a lot a happier with how my time and money are spent. And, frankly, the moral superiority compared to the rest of you is an inexhaustible wellspring. Currently I'm engaged in scratchbuilding an Ork vehicle so big and pointless that even trying to write rules for it would be idiotic, and I actually have a smile on my face again, something which never happened in the god knows how many miserable defeats I endured at the gaming table.

To put things into perspective: When I last won a game of 40k, Tony Blair was still Prime Minister.

 Agamemnon2 wrote:
And, frankly, the moral superiority compared to the rest of you is an inexhaustible wellspring.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:
You can still only throw one grenade, right? So why not just make the grenade launcher a squad ability that allows you to throw a grenade at 24"?
The grenade launcher model would just an reminder to show that the squad does have that ability. Sort of like how Orks are all meant to have grenades, but you don't have the bits to give everyone a nade.

As it's just an ability it doesn't take up any special weapon slots.

Considering how grenade rules have changed since 2nd edition, this is actually a smart idea. And this is coming from someone who liked grenade launchers as a template/krak grenade delivery system!