Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Dudeface wrote:


What does your army list look like to have 40 guys at 3k points? It promotes big blob units, that's the point of the setting and game.

But if we assume you're right for a minute, why bother with 4 stats, sets of tests and sets of modifiers if they "may not be so relevant"?

It's almost like they listened to the worst areas of the HH online communities and went "hey these guys love pointless stats and 'crunch', let's inject ore for the sakes of it".

I will go now, approach this with a clearer head tomorrow.

That would be my more elite, PotL list. Usually its about 50ish, for my Night Lords. Are a lot of people just spamming fat units of Tacticals or something? I feel like even my IF Stone Gauntlet list comes in around 60ish.

The point of the setting and game is to take place during the Horus Heresy. If they wanted big units, this would be Legion Imperialis.

Not a question for me, man. Ask the designers. Ask the folks who play Necromunda maybe? The stats clearly have a purpose. Certainly feels like it will be more interesting than just leadership was, potentially.

I feel like I hear two camps arguing right now - the game sounds too simply like it is becoming 40k or AoS and the game is getting new bloat rules and turning into a worse 7th or 9th ed.

At this point I am just gonna wait and see. Not much left to do really.

Oh hey, I was right. Purely a 28mm heresy event.

Final thought for tonight.

Weapon Damage stat... that goes hand in hand with all vehicles going to Toughness/Wounds, doesn't it?

Possibly, but not necessarily.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Possibly, but not necessarily.

Could increase hull points but keep AV. Pen does Dam plus result, glance does 1/2 Dam no result

So did they explain why the Saturnine have Chest Eagles with only one head?

That is a clear design change that seems noteworthy to me.

All Eagle insignias to now have had 2 heads that I am aware of.
The existing Emperor's Children stuff has 2 heads, the old FW HH resin as well

Also?

Just in case anyone fancies using it against me in the future?

I was wrong, this isn’t the “spit and polish” 2.5 type edition.

But remember, I’d only argued it might be.

Yet wrong I stand, and happily so.

 skrulnik wrote:
So did they explain why the Saturnine have Chest Eagles with only one head?

That is a clear design change that seems noteworthy to me.

All Eagle insignias to now have had 2 heads that I am aware of.
The existing Emperor's Children stuff has 2 heads, the old FW HH resin as well

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also?

Just in case anyone fancies using it against me in the future?

I was wrong, this isn’t the “spit and polish” 2.5 type edition.

But remember, I’d only argued it might be.

Yet wrong I stand, and happily so.

The overwhelming rumor narrative from Valrak and most of the copycat posts on 4chan, etc also said it'd be closer to a 2.5 edition, and given that Valrak was 100% correct about the model contents it wasn't really a controversial statement at the time.

 skrulnik wrote:
So did they explain why the Saturnine have Chest Eagles with only one head?

That is a clear design change that seems noteworthy to me.

All Eagle insignias to now have had 2 heads that I am aware of.
The existing Emperor's Children stuff has 2 heads, the old FW HH resin as well

Last I saw was something along the lines of the double head referred to the alliance of Terra and Mars so that these were made before, or without the influence, of the Mechanicus. Or something like that.


I appreciate the Saturnine but have no interest in them so I'll probably be looking for someone who wants them but not the Mk II to split a box with.

The Aquila heads are Astronomica & Telepathica (which is why one of the heads is blind).

JWBS wrote:
The Aquila heads are Astronomica & Telepathica (which is why one of the heads is blind).

But they are both blind on HH FW models...

Is there any more info on Saturnine besides the novels?
Was it covered in the Old HH Black Books?

Weapon damage affecting vehicle survival could also just be going back to earlier editions where damage was asses to your armour roll.

Or it could be added as a modifier to the damage chart (which would therefore have values greater than six.

 skrulnik wrote:


But they are both blind on HH FW models...

Is there any more info on Saturnine besides the novels?
Was it covered in the Old HH Black Books?

The only sculpted aquilla I recall seeing with eyes was a FW large marine sculpt and it had two, but you can find a lot of drawn examples with one seeing eye.

The_Pilot wrote:
Yay, teased custodes, I remember they had forgeworld spears for custodes, so either they are making new spears, which will be nice to have some variety in my army, or they’re going to make some forgeworld models like the spears and hopefully the vehicles plastic which would be amazing.

And finally, staying in the Solar System, here is the glinting blade of an auramite spear…

very excited at the hint of plastic custodes. the fact that the Talons book is coming later was quite disappointing, but this tells me it very well might be worth it

who knows. we might even finally get a second SoS kit!

 Jack Flask wrote:

 skrulnik wrote:
So did they explain why the Saturnine have Chest Eagles with only one head?

That is a clear design change that seems noteworthy to me.

All Eagle insignias to now have had 2 heads that I am aware of.
The existing Emperor's Children stuff has 2 heads, the old FW HH resin as well

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also?

Just in case anyone fancies using it against me in the future?

I was wrong, this isn’t the “spit and polish” 2.5 type edition.

But remember, I’d only argued it might be.

Yet wrong I stand, and happily so.

The overwhelming rumor narrative from Valrak and most of the copycat posts on 4chan, etc also said it'd be closer to a 2.5 edition, and given that Valrak was 100% correct about the model contents it wasn't really a controversial statement at the time.

Reading warcom posts and listening to the preview, GW is *also* framing it as a minor tweak/2.5 type thing:

"The Warhammer Design Studio have been pretty happy with where the game has been for the last few years, and they’ve seen this new edition as the opportunity to reinvestigate the core systems and make improvements – rather than making wholesale changes.

This is very much the same Horus Heresy game you know and love, and the team have made targeted refinements to a system that already works really well, making changes only where necessary and adding flavour wherever they can. "

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/m11ujimg/saturnine-your-questions-on-the-new-edition-of-horus-heresy-answered/

Well that was a hell of a thing to wake up to.

 Snrub wrote:
There is absolutely no way that Sats are going to be anything faster then 5 inch movement. Not happening no way no how way. They're too hugelarge to be faster then hobbling speed. I predict though that they'll have some inbuilt deepstrike rule or the option to purchase a teleporter or something so they're not totally bereft of movement options. Probably a 2+/4++ like Cats. From the look of the picture weapon choices seem to be either Disintegrators/power Fists or double plasma weapons. Hopefully there's something else in the box as well.

As far as those interesting new plasma weapons go, they bear some similarities to the plasma bombard mortar thing that Thanatar wields. So I wonder if they're going to be some manner of plasma artillery? Because a wall of Sats marching forward lobbing plasma bombs around sounds like my idea of a good time.
All the disintegrator weapons have two barrels. So they could either be rejigging the profile for them for more shots, or the Sat units have a twin-linked version of the weapon. Would would help with the not insta-gibbing yourself on a gets hot.

And oh look. I was completely fething right. About everything. I hate being right.

-I really dislike the changes they've made to the MkII (and by extension MkIII) armour re. the overlapping plates and the knees. Still, there's plenty of old Forgeworld kits kicking about for me to get and a few good STLs floating about. So I've got options.
-I was a bit on the fence about the Saturnine terminators, but getting clearer and varied shots of them, I find I quite like them.
-The alternate pose for the Sat Praetor is much nicer then the one on the box. He's so bloody big though. It's ridiculous.
-Sat Dreadnought's not really doing much for me. It's fine, I don't dislike it. But I wouldn't despair if they unannounced it.
-I think my favourite thing from the new box is the MkII centurion. Really digging the helmeted head, although I think i'd be cutting the broom crest off.
-Nice to see them filling gaps with the other kits. Roll on the plastic Glaive! The breachers aren't doing it for me. They've mucked around with the shields a bit too much for my tastes. Not a fan of the rapier loadouts being split between one anti-troop/armour loadout per box. That gak ain't logical. Put both anti armour and anti troop in one box, not one and one. They SHOULD have been all four to a box, but hohum.
-Keen to see the full MkII assault marines box though. That did look good.


-Pretty much agree with Blackfang regarding the rules changes. Not at all impressed or enthusiastic about any of it as shown so far. 2.0 wasn't perfect by any means, but it was good and it did work. It would have been so easy for them to just tweak a few things, a little change here and there and they would have had pretty much everyone happy. But no. Here we are on the treadmill.

Jury is out on the rules changes, but I love the models and am cautiously optimistic for the new edition. Best online preview they've ever done imo

Impressive reveals! The previewed plastic upcoming releases look awesome too. I haven't played HH in a while but my initial gut reaction on hearing they've added to the rules and made it more involved was not great. I get it though, I always thought the HH game was targeted more at veteran players instead of the young pups but not sure if that's still the case. The effort GW is going to with the plastic redux and future previews, custodes, ad mech/dark mech look like they might want the newbies climbing aboard too. We'll see how the rules play out.

What I'm interested in though is the price. What does one expect a big box like this with 50 new miniatures Plus whopping 352 page hardback book & extras to retail for?

Then what do you expect the plastic super heavy tanks to go for? Considering every week the cost of living goes up too!

There's a part of me that's very tempted to think this box all painted as the same faction plus a tank or two and tarantulas or rapiers etc might be enough for an army. Is that wishful thinking?

Oh, the things that happen while I'm at work.

Dig the plastic sculpts of classic units. Still not liking the "Saturnine" stuff.

Not thrilled that they've decided to do a big rules revamp instead of a 2.5 edition. I guess I'll "wait and see", but not digging the preliminaries.

Final thought: I don't know why they decided to switch to round doors for rectangular doors for the plastic Fellblade, but it will serve one purpose: separating the "boys with plastic toys" from the "men who don't fear resin". (Just a joke. I fully understand those that didn't want to deal with the old kit. I can tell you from experience, it was a beast. )

 Snrub wrote:
Well that was a hell of a thing to wake up to.

I’ll say!

I can’t really comment on the rules changes. This was my biggest concern, but I can’t get a handle on how what they’ve announced will actually affect the game. I am hopeful that, if these are (as they say) the biggest rules changes, they haven’t moved vehicles to T stats (one of the worst things they did to WH40k), but it’s too soon to be sure. It looks as though the increased flexibility in list building involves allies rather than trashing the FoC, but let’s see…

As for the new models:
- I’ve never really understood the attachment to Mk III armour. The plastic version looks fine to me, but no better than the Mk III. The assault version looks great though - much better than the beakies. Really liking their jetpacks in particular.
- I’m all in for the Breachers too. We’ve waited too long for them, so they were always going to be a bit of an anticlimax, but I think they’ll be more exciting once we see the full kit with its options.
- The Saturnine stuff is okay. I think I quite like the Termies, but the Dread just looks too big and flat.
- The new Fellblade looks fab. I’m not sure why anyone could say it’s not an improvement on the resin kit.
- I also like the plastic Rapiers (released just when I’d finished converting my own - typical). We knew they’d be the same as the LI version, and the upsized design looks good, although maybe a bit too WH40k. The crew look a bit…awkward? Not sure what’s going on there.

So I guess it’s a mixture of anticipation for the new models and trepidation for what else they’ve done with the rules.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Gadzilla666 wrote:
Final thought: I don't know why they decided to switch to round doors for rectangular doors for the plastic Fellblade, but it will serve one purpose: separating the "boys with plastic toys" from the "men who don't fear resin". (Just a joke. I fully understand those that didn't want to deal with the old kit. I can tell you from experience, it was a beast. )

Rather like the grognards who still insist that the only real war gaming figures are metal.

Has there been any confirmation that the new Terminators will have melee options as well?

 Snord wrote:


Rather like the grognards who still insist that the only real war gaming figures are metal.

Everyone knows the only real Warhammer figures are Finecast.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Has there been any confirmation that the new Terminators will have melee options as well?

I have only seen that one photo of what looks like a new Cataphractii with a volkite charger.

 ArcaneHorror wrote:
Has there been any confirmation that the new Terminators will have melee options as well?

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/8awupwvv/saturnine-what-is-saturnine-pattern-terminator-armour/


as well as mentions in a few other articles of the fists.

The Saturnine terminators are glorious. Everything terminators should have always been... right down to having their neck situated above their armpits!

Not keen on the massive plasma mortar thing, but the rest of it is perfection.

Very meh on the termies still, but the plastic rapier kit looks great and the fellblade is definitely on my list to buy.

I'm also not liking the breachers, but I'm open to seeing more. Maybe it's just the angles, but for now I'm going to stick with my printed bits.

 Snrub wrote:
split between one anti-troop/armour loadout per box. That gak ain't logical. Put both anti armour and anti troop in one box, not one and one. They SHOULD have been all four to a box, but hohum.

There are 4 crew models, and both art pics are of a pair of similar rapiers, so I am thinking that each box will be 2 rapier carriages that can build 2 of the same or one of each of the two options listed. Cant be positive, but going by these:

 Snord wrote:

- I’m all in for the Breachers too. We’ve waited too long for them, so they were always going to be a bit of an anticlimax, but I think they’ll be more exciting once we see the full kit with its options.

I kinda think that the Breachers will be an upgrade set, not a full unique set with new poses or anything. Maybe a sprue with 5 pairs of arms and guns, one set of shield and melee, and 5-8 heads on a frame, doubled.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I’m my usual optimistic self.

Didn't you recently share that you haven't played any GW games since, like, 2012 or 2016 or something?

It's easy to be optimistic when you have no skin in the game, other than a distant sense of aesthetic appreciation for rulesets and/or an aspirational approach to playing that will never come to fruition.

Btw this is not a condemnation of you not playing while remaining engaged with the hobby. I am also in that situation, and only consider myself a semi-active player of Kill Team and Necromunda. But I am not all over every page of every discussion about new rules.

lost_lilliputian wrote:
What I'm interested in though is the price. What does one expect a big box like this with 50 new miniatures Plus whopping 352 page hardback book & extras to retail for?

Then what do you expect the plastic super heavy tanks to go for? Considering every week the cost of living goes up too!

There's a part of me that's very tempted to think this box all painted as the same faction plus a tank or two and tarantulas or rapiers etc might be enough for an army. Is that wishful thinking?

It'll cost at least as much as the Age of Darkness box, and has roughly the same amount of plastic in it (so probably minimum $523 AUD, though we have plenty of retailers where you can get 20-25% off).

Hard to estimate points costs when the game is being rebalanced, but the existing starter box is not far under 2000 points, when HH games normally range in size from 2000 to 3500 points. Add a few things to the Saturnine box and you'll definitely have the core of an army. It's great value, but still a hefty buy-in

 MajorWesJanson wrote:
There are 4 crew models, and both art pics are of a pair of similar rapiers, so I am thinking that each box will be 2 rapier carriages that can build 2 of the same or one of each of the two options listed. Cant be positive, but going by these:

Unfortunately I think this puts paid to that hope.

WarCom article

WarCom wrote:The Rapier is similar, providing Legion forces with a mobile heavy weapon or light artillery support. There are two new plastic kits on the way – one with a graviton or quad-bolter option, and one with a quad-launcher or laser-destroyer. Whatever you’re shooting, there is a Rapier for the job!

 Marshal Loss wrote:
It'll cost at least as much as the Age of Darkness box, and has roughly the same amount of plastic in it (so probably minimum $523 AUD, though we have plenty of retailers where you can get 20-25% off).

If it comes in anywhere remotely what the AoD box costs, I'll be shocked.
I'll not be shocked however if this one caps $600. I'm expecting the Liber's to jump to the $110/120 mark as well.