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Aren't Aggressors supposed to be the Primaris Terminators equivalent?

tneva82 wrote:
It brings cash. Nuff said

That doesn't make a difference to the effect of it.

The 'no new loyalist Primarchs' sentiment seems to be very strong, yet no one seems to bat an eye when a traitor Primarch comes back. As someone not deep into the lore can someone explain why one is good but the other bad please?

Tallonian4th wrote:
The 'no new loyalist Primarchs' sentiment seems to be very strong, yet no one seems to bat an eye when a traitor Primarch comes back. As someone not deep into the lore can someone explain why one is good but the other bad please?

Daemon primarchs have always existed in the lore and interacted in the setting. Maybe not to a massive effect always, but Magnus fought Ragnar Blackmane, Angron was on Armaggedon and fought the Grey Knights, Mortarion fought the Grey Knights, etc.

It's not as game changing to have daemon primarchs around, since one) they've always been around, and 2) they can be "slain" but they'll be back eventually.


Some people are afraid loyalist primarchs will make the setting less grim dark, as primachs have an easier chance of reuniting the Imperium and helping face the growing number of threats. Plus, since they're mortal, its very very very unlikely they'll ever die or be put in real danger

 GaroRobe wrote:

Tallonian4th wrote:
The 'no new loyalist Primarchs' sentiment seems to be very strong, yet no one seems to bat an eye when a traitor Primarch comes back. As someone not deep into the lore can someone explain why one is good but the other bad please?

Daemon primarchs have always existed in the lore and interacted in the setting. Maybe not to a massive effect always, but Magnus fought Ragnar Blackmane, Angron was on Armaggedon and fought the Grey Knights, Mortarion fought the Grey Knights, etc.

It's not as game changing to have daemon primarchs around, since one) they've always been around, and 2) they can be "slain" but they'll be back eventually.


Some people are afraid loyalist primarchs will make the setting less grim dark, as primachs have an easier chance of reuniting the Imperium and helping face the growing number of threats. Plus, since they're mortal, its very very very unlikely they'll ever die or be put in real danger

Not only that, but more loyalist Primarchs would obviously change a big part of the focus onto them, where these specific super powerful characters would have to be involved in all the significant events somehow. I don't want the setting to become Horus Heresy 40k in terms of being a Primarch-focused/driven narrative.

Tallonian4th wrote:
The 'no new loyalist Primarchs' sentiment seems to be very strong, yet no one seems to bat an eye when a traitor Primarch comes back. As someone not deep into the lore can someone explain why one is good but the other bad please?

In addition to what GaroRobe said, there is the issue that most loyal Primarchs know quite well what the Emperor said and did, and all of them have fought their entire life and sacrificed a lot to make that vision come true. Few of them would show the same patience and pragmatism as Gulliman towards the twisted abomination of their father's ideas that the Imperium has become.
Most primarchs simply have no love for humans and aren't exactly adept at anything but waging war. The high lords of terra and the ecclesiarchy should consider themselves lucky that none other than the primarch of the Ultramarines returned.
While Dorn might just voice is displeasure by killing a few billion people and smacking about the fanatics of his former legion, I wouldn't put it beyond the Lion to outright start a galaxy spanning civil war, fracturing the Imperium into two factions.

For this reason many of the returners would cause a massive change to the lore of the Imperium, with no real way to "go back" or keep the previous lore alive.

This is quite different from the entire cast of heretic primarchs popping up everywhere, as they are essentially just yet another big bad threat to the galaxy and they already hate each other's guts anyways.

Thank you all, just what I needed, makes sense now.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
It brings cash. Nuff said

That doesn't make a difference to the effect of it.

Cash is only thing gw cares. Fluff is then written to accommodiate it.


There's no danger of civil wars etc if gw doesn't want because gw simply writes it so there's no civil war. Gw controls writing. Writing doesn't control gw. Lion comes when gw decides it's time to push that print money button and fluff is written so that it fits.

 Esmer wrote:
Aren't Aggressors supposed to be the Primaris Terminators equivalent?

I thought they were the centurions equivalent. Bladeguard veterans are the primaris terminators equivalent.

 Jidmah wrote:

Tallonian4th wrote:
The 'no new loyalist Primarchs' sentiment seems to be very strong, yet no one seems to bat an eye when a traitor Primarch comes back. As someone not deep into the lore can someone explain why one is good but the other bad please?

In addition to what GaroRobe said, there is the issue that most loyal Primarchs know quite well what the Emperor said and did, and all of them have fought their entire life and sacrificed a lot to make that vision come true. Few of them would show the same patience and pragmatism as Gulliman towards the twisted abomination of their father's ideas that the Imperium has become.
Most primarchs simply have no love for humans and aren't exactly adept at anything but waging war. The high lords of terra and the ecclesiarchy should consider themselves lucky that none other than the primarch of the Ultramarines returned.
While Dorn might just voice is displeasure by killing a few billion people and smacking about the fanatics of his former legion, I wouldn't put it beyond the Lion to outright start a galaxy spanning civil war, fracturing the Imperium into two factions.

For this reason many of the returners would cause a massive change to the lore of the Imperium, with no real way to "go back" or keep the previous lore alive.

This is quite different from the entire cast of heretic primarchs popping up everywhere, as they are essentially just yet another big bad threat to the galaxy and they already hate each other's guts anyways.

Vulkan was always the one that was most caring for normal humans. He knew he was more powerful than normal humans, but he never thought that made him "better", and it was a trait he taught in his Legion/chapter. If any of the Loyalists would come back he'd likely make the smallest splash in the fluff pool.

That being said, shaking up the fluff isn't beyond GW. Hell, they tore the galaxy in half with a good chunk of the Imperium almost unreachable and left to fend for themselves. This basically mirrors the downfall of the Holy Roman Empire. Do you know what the HRE had? Two capitals, and two Popes. If the Lion did come back his "home" is now a giant spaceship. It could be written that he takes command of the far side of the rift, RG takes the other side. They are technically on the same side, although with tensions, both claiming to be way of the future. Each side of the rift run with slightly different flavors.

 Blackie wrote:

 Esmer wrote:
Aren't Aggressors supposed to be the Primaris Terminators equivalent?

I thought they were the centurions equivalent. Bladeguard veterans are the primaris terminators equivalent.

I thought centurions were supposed to be a re-imaginging of terminators to "fix their issues".

I wish aggressors were Primaris terminators, they've got the dakka, but not the protection.

@Jidmah wouldn't the loyal Primarch "issue" just add tension and drama to the setting, potentially making things even more dark.

I agree that not every loyal Primary makes sense, but the ones where their status is ambiguous could theirs more spanners into the works.

 Stormonu wrote:

 Blackie wrote:

 Esmer wrote:
Aren't Aggressors supposed to be the Primaris Terminators equivalent?

I thought they were the centurions equivalent. Bladeguard veterans are the primaris terminators equivalent.

I thought centurions were supposed to be a re-imaginging of terminators to "fix their issues".

I wish aggressors were Primaris terminators, they've got the dakka, but not the protection.

I'm glad GW opted for a different statline for Aggressors and kept the option for Primaris Terminators open.

I love Terminators, but their anatomy has always been horrific. I was hoping for a Primaris redesign to fix that.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Vulkan was always the one that was most caring for normal humans. He knew he was more powerful than normal humans, but he never thought that made him "better", and it was a trait he taught in his Legion/chapter. If any of the Loyalists would come back he'd likely make the smallest splash in the fluff pool.

I agree, and as said earlier in this thread, Jaghatai would probably be similar. However, neither is particularly high on the lists of primarchs people are asking for - the one you see most commonly are the Lion, Dorn and Russ, and I think it's highly unlikely that any of them will put up with the gak that's going on or even listen to Roboute at all.

That being said, shaking up the fluff isn't beyond GW. Hell, they tore the galaxy in half with a good chunk of the Imperium almost unreachable and left to fend for themselves. This basically mirrors the downfall of the Holy Roman Empire. Do you know what the HRE had? Two capitals, and two Popes. If the Lion did come back his "home" is now a giant spaceship. It could be written that he takes command of the far side of the rift, RG takes the other side. They are technically on the same side, although with tensions, both claiming to be way of the future. Each side of the rift run with slightly different flavors.

That wouldn't exactly be "shaking it up" but more like smashing it to pieces. I'd totally like a development like that, but I can see why people who enjoy the current fluff don't, and it's also the reason why writing the return of a loyal primarch is a lot more difficult than "oh, and Logan suddenly appeared blew up the fortress monastery of the Teal Tortoise chapter".

Honestly one reason I've thought of GW fragmented in the Imperium in half is that one big problem they've had with the setting is that the Imperium has squashed most other factions.

They've a whole Galaxy to play with, but in a creative sense they wrote themselves into a corner. Necrons kinda managed to appear because they hid themsleves in the core of planets and dead worlds that no one cared about; Tau survived because of a layer of plot armour that was insanely thick;but even so their early lore is basically "Imperium didn't notice" followed by "Imperium basically doesn't bother to swat the fly because its got bigger problems".

Even right now Tau just aren't powerful enough to actually stand toe to toe with any one faction IF they focused attention on them.


Eldar have been skirting around in planet ships and on the fringes for ages and mostly survive by being sneaky, hiding and raiding tactics.



Most other xenos are exterminated or only hold tiny regions and just don't have the room to expand.
So I've wondered if GW having the Galaxy cut in half was a means toward having one half start to have the Imperial control fragment. You've got the crusading Primaris rich half that remains the Imperium we know; then you've the other side that falls into chaos. Reduced support, hard logistics and systems falling into their more local governance.

Imperial fleets far too overstretched to hold the vast swathes. Leading the whole systems being lost on a large scale and giving room for other Xenos and factions to rise up.




Heck GW could go further and have the Imperium do a full split politically - one side holding to the Emperor and the Church; the other to the returned Primarch.

 Overread wrote:
Honestly one reason I've thought of GW fragmented in the Imperium in half is that one big problem they've had with the setting is that the Imperium has squashed most other factions.

They've a whole Galaxy to play with, but in a creative sense they wrote themselves into a corner. Necrons kinda managed to appear because they hid themsleves in the core of planets and dead worlds that no one cared about; Tau survived because of a layer of plot armour that was insanely thick;but even so their early lore is basically "Imperium didn't notice" followed by "Imperium basically doesn't bother to swat the fly because its got bigger problems".

Even right now Tau just aren't powerful enough to actually stand toe to toe with any one faction IF they focused attention on them.


Eldar have been skirting around in planet ships and on the fringes for ages and mostly survive by being sneaky, hiding and raiding tactics.



Most other xenos are exterminated or only hold tiny regions and just don't have the room to expand.
So I've wondered if GW having the Galaxy cut in half was a means toward having one half start to have the Imperial control fragment. You've got the crusading Primaris rich half that remains the Imperium we know; then you've the other side that falls into chaos. Reduced support, hard logistics and systems falling into their more local governance.

Imperial fleets far too overstretched to hold the vast swathes. Leading the whole systems being lost on a large scale and giving room for other Xenos and factions to rise up.




Heck GW could go further and have the Imperium do a full split politically - one side holding to the Emperor and the Church; the other to the returned Primarch.

I really like that idea, but it would also cause odd issues with the more popular space marine chapters - I really don't see Ultramarines and Blood Angels fighting on opposed sides just because of where they are located in relation to the great rift.

Which would just add to the melting pot of chaos. It would also mean that the two factions would have active battlegrounds against each other or at least areas where they'd come into direct conflict without having to fly through the contested central regions.

tneva82 wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
It brings cash. Nuff said

That doesn't make a difference to the effect of it.

Cash is only thing gw cares. Fluff is then written to accommodiate it.


There's no danger of civil wars etc if gw doesn't want because gw simply writes it so there's no civil war. Gw controls writing. Writing doesn't control gw. Lion comes when gw decides it's time to push that print money button and fluff is written so that it fits.

Of course they want to make money. That doesn't mean they'll do absolutely anything regardless of the consequences and decide to entirely throw any semblance of care out. The idea that they don't at least try to manage the setting in a reasonable way and will suddenly decide, when they've only just really started making use of the last big shakeup to 40k, to go "Doesn't matter anymore, time to change the setting entirely again!" is just absurd.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
It brings cash. Nuff said

That doesn't make a difference to the effect of it.

Cash is only thing gw cares. Fluff is then written to accommodiate it.


There's no danger of civil wars etc if gw doesn't want because gw simply writes it so there's no civil war. Gw controls writing. Writing doesn't control gw. Lion comes when gw decides it's time to push that print money button and fluff is written so that it fits.

Of course they want to make money. That doesn't mean they'll do absolutely anything regardless of the consequences and decide to entirely throw any semblance of care out. The idea that they don't at least try to manage the setting in a reasonable way and will suddenly decide, when they've only just really started making use of the last big shakeup to 40k, to go "Doesn't matter anymore, time to change the setting entirely again!" is just absurd.

Model designer makes model. It's then handed to fluff team told to write fluff. Then rule team is told to write rules.

Gw ain't dropping lion model just because fluff team says no. Gw just finds guy that says yes.

"Here you go."
"What is this?"
"It's a new plastic Sanguinius."
"But he's dead."
"Meh. You figure it out."
"You going to make some new plastic Aspect Warriors now? Or maybe a plastic Biovore?"
"No. And one of those I've never even heard of until you said it just then!"

tneva82 wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
It brings cash. Nuff said

That doesn't make a difference to the effect of it.

Cash is only thing gw cares. Fluff is then written to accommodiate it.


There's no danger of civil wars etc if gw doesn't want because gw simply writes it so there's no civil war. Gw controls writing. Writing doesn't control gw. Lion comes when gw decides it's time to push that print money button and fluff is written so that it fits.

Of course they want to make money. That doesn't mean they'll do absolutely anything regardless of the consequences and decide to entirely throw any semblance of care out. The idea that they don't at least try to manage the setting in a reasonable way and will suddenly decide, when they've only just really started making use of the last big shakeup to 40k, to go "Doesn't matter anymore, time to change the setting entirely again!" is just absurd.

Model designer makes model. It's then handed to fluff team told to write fluff. Then rule team is told to write rules.

Gw ain't dropping lion model just because fluff team says no. Gw just finds guy that says yes.

So you think they just design and release whatever with no thought or plan or direction to what they're doing. Alright then.

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
So you think they just design and release whatever with no thought or plan or direction to what they're doing. Alright then.

Obviously not. The designers get told what to do first by a higher up and then everyone else plays catch up.

 Gert wrote:

 Mentlegen324 wrote:
So you think they just design and release whatever with no thought or plan or direction to what they're doing. Alright then.

Obviously not. The designers get told what to do first by a higher up and then everyone else plays catch up.

It's this part of the process that is the biggest mystery. There have been lots of interviews with various members of staff who all talk about the fact that the miniatures come first but never an interview with whoever it is who decides what gets made next.
Even with the likes of James Hewitt who was pretty candid after he left we haven't heard anything about this stage of the process.

 Matrindur wrote:
https://www.reddit.com/r/Warhammer40k/comments/vrizn6/i_feel_the_need_to_clarify_the_leaks/

Another one but its not the same account so could be just someone else taking advantage of the situation

This is a burner acc.

The next codex is Votann.

Then Kill Team - set on a space hulk, it’s new kasrkin vs Genestealers (old kit with upgrade sprew)

Then guard codex.

Then world eaters with Angron.

After that we are getting space marine 2.0 with chapter supplements (no new chapter specific models) in 2023. This launch will be with Primaris “terminators” (gravis marines with classic load outs and a take on the classic helmets), missile Primaris devastator (not their name) squad, and melee oriented dreadnought.

The launch of 10th will be nids with a range refresh like the necrons saw. Opposite them in the launch box will be generic space marines with jump pack assault troops and a jump captain (there is likely more units in the box)

The confusion is that the generic marines are painted as blood angels as they’re going to poster boy the launch, along with Dark Angels and both will see large Primaris centric updates (including a lion model). It’s going to be a launch focussed in imperium nihilus with “angels of death” codex nostalgia

So in light of todays Kill Team preview I think its safe to say that this is all a load of bs, yes?

Its possible that one of the future Kill Team boxes could be Kasrkin v Genestealers I suppose, but it seems unlikely that the poster would know that the box after next is Kasrkin v Genestealers but not know or mention that the *next* box is Navy Voidsmen vs Kroot.

Well. So far we know one thing to be factually right. That’s Angron and World Eaters. That could simply be an educated guess, as with prior knowledge WE were coming, and the other two Codexded Legions having their Primarch, it’s low hanging fruit.

The timeline is however suspect, as it makes no mention of the KT set we saw.

But, that doesn’t in itself mean no Kasrkin/Tyranid set is also coming.

That's probably because its bundled up with a lot of management and business elements.

A model isn't just a design, its an investment in design, concept art, lore, moulds, boxes, photography, etc...

You don't just do that on a whim every time; you make a calculated choice.



What's likely true is that it varies. There will be cases where managers order X models to be made and creative staff go away to make them. There will be cases where creative staff have designed X and approach managers to make a justification for X to be a thing - which makes managers look at the numbers and say yes or no.

There will be passion projects where key staff are retained by allowing them some creative freedom; there will be totally management driven ideas.



There are also likely many models that make it part way through the process and then fail to complete. Changes in the firm or sales; shifts in staff; a model that never quite seems to meet the bar for their standards or perhaps the design proves to be such that its not viable to cast without going right back to the drawing board.




Plus alongside that we've got all the standard things for a firm. So internal politics, arguments, fights, flings and all. I'm sure there are models that are awesome which will never see the light of day because someone with influence hates them and others that get released even if they aren't that great because, again, someone with influence likes them or praise the creator or whatever.


Considering GW deals with a luxury product and are the biggest company in their market by a large margin, there's potential both for it to be heavily management driven and also heavily political.

Heck I'm sure that politics within GW are part of the reason some FW models appear and disappear as if on a whim.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Well. So far we know one thing to be factually right. That’s Angron and World Eaters. That could simply be an educated guess, as with prior knowledge WE were coming, and the other two Codexded Legions having their Primarch, it’s low hanging fruit.

The timeline is however suspect, as it makes no mention of the KT set we saw.

But, that doesn’t in itself mean no Kasrkin/Tyranid set is also coming.

World Eaters was confirmed by GW in May though, so that doesn't mean anything.

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2022/05/04/blood-skulls-and-butchers-nails-the-world-eaters-are-getting-their-own-codex/

While Angron wasn't mentioned specifically, it was kind of a no-brainer based on TSons and Death Guard (which the article specifically references as examples of the treatment we can expect for World Eaters). So I think it was a "I know nothing but taking a stab in the dark at something that has very high probability of being true and most people expect to build legitimacy." Which I think is also what they were doing by referencing Kasrkin v Genestealers - people were already theorizing this would be the release, so they just piggybacked onto it for clout.

That’s…..what I said?

Yes, and I am clarifying the point, in case there was any doubt, that the leak getting Angron and the World Eaters "right" is utterly meaningless and should not be used as a gauge oof whether or not the rumor dump has any value.

Ergo, I think its safe to say that Kasrkin v Tyranids is made up bs. Also of note, I did find a post by OK_E on reddit from about a month ago, he was asked about timetable to release on the new Astra Militarum. He responded "After chaos and daemon".

To me this implies Daemons would be the next book up, followed by Guard, as Chaos [Space Marines] were just released. I will note OK_E does not have a perfect batting record with release timing, about 1 month ago he was asked "is there any chance of WE arriving this year?" and his response was "I'd doubt it". Yet, we have seen enough of World Eaters to imply that they seemingly would not be too far off (and since then he has been actively posting more detail on their rules, etc.). It doesn't mean that WE will release this year mind you, but it seems more likely than not that we would have their codex and minis in the next 6 months, doesn't it?

Anyway, the codex release order from a fairly reliable source being CSM > Daemons > Astra Militarum sucks all the wind out of the sails of that other rumor dump saying the release order is Votann > Kill Team Kasrkin v Genestealers > Guard > Angron > SM 2.0 > 10e Nids. This kind of also precludes the likelihood of Kasrkin v Genestealers, because if GW keeps its typical timelines up, we'll be gettting Daemons in late July or August, and Guard along with the Navy v Kroot box in late August or September. I very much doubt that they hold the release of Kasrkin back to ~December for the next KT box, especially not when they have already shown them to us.

chaos0xomega wrote:
Ergo, I think its safe to say that Kasrkin v Tyranids is made up bs.

Not necessarily. Remember, we have official images of the new guard models (including new Kasrkin) vs. Tyranids, and we've seen that the Kasrkin are on the exact same bases as the two sides of the new Kill Team box. And, more importantly, the Kasrkin are not on the same bases as the rest of the guard models in the picture which implies GW pulled them from the marketing shots from a different product.

Also, I'd take all rumors on release order with a truck full of salt. Supply chain issues are still a thing and it doesn't take much for GW to shift the order of releases around a bit to cover for a delayed product. If you're evaluating the accuracy of a source I'd put way more weight on correctly predicting/leaking the contents of a release than the exact order it arrives in.