Lord of the Rings on Prime

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**Grumpy Gnome**

Trying to avoid open spoilers…

Spoiler:

I liked the Elven children being cruel. Kids are often cruel and empathy sometimes needs to be learned. Even for Elves. Even Tolkien Elvens. Haughty, arrogant, war fighting Tolkien Elves. I like excellent but less than perfect Elves.

That said… Galadriel's company and exploits in the North was some of the worst parts of the show for me so far. I did not like the characterization of her undermining, whining minion. I did not like the lack of apparent bonding between warriors. The otherwise fairly tight writing seemed way off in this part. The decision company to abandon their venture despite having found a troll and proving the fortress was actually there, despite Galadriel so handily slaying the Troll just rang hollow. I liked that she had a least a little assist from the whiner but where was the display of Elven archery that could have fit in there to at least weaken the Troll so it looked like the efforts of a greater team?

I think the scene would have played much better had they found a talking enemy to capture and then interrogate. Have it be a proper tough “end boss fight” before the talking prisoner is captured. Have Galadriel and a respected and respectful XO/NCO/mentor type disagree about them finally finishing the last forces of Morgoth and/or Sauron. Have some fatalities among the company to help establish a sense of enough is enough, even Elven endurance can only take so much and reason suggests the fight is well and truly over. It would not need to extend the sequence overlong if you linger less on the exterior scenes. Yes, we get it… it is very cold. And you get a more meaty fight scene in to establish for new fans that combat is deadly but (re-establish for old fans) that veteran Elves are truly epic warriors. Even better if a likable character is killed in that fight. Everyone expects Galadriel to live but make the life of all the new characters at risk right off the bat to raise the stakes.

I thought the scenes with Prince Durin and Elrond were brilliant as written. They had me wondering what was going on and that actually felt cool when I finally figured out where they were going with it. I would not think 20 Years was that long to a Dwarf but ok, I still liked the disconnect caused by the culturally different senses of time.

It would have been nice for the Dwarven women to have more facial hair.

I like the Harfoots much more than I expected.

Can the Stranger really be Gandalf? I am not sure how I feel about that. But at least it was well written and shot so far. I really do not want him to turn out to be Sauron.

I was a lot more familiar with the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings compared to anything 1st and 2nd Age so I suppose I am a lot more tolerant of breaks with canon lore.

To be fair I really did not expect to be able to get Hugo Weaving and Cate Blanchett out of my mind and thought they should have stayed away from Elrond and Galadriel but the actors have been doing a decent job of pulling it off. I have a lot of respect for that given they have had to change my mind on something I did not really want my mind changed on. Gil-Galad has not quite worked for me yet but I am going to try to give the actor more time to convince me.

From the trailers I thought Arondir was going to be a Legolas clone but I am glad I was wrong.

For some reason I really do not like Theo but maybe that is because I am not supposed to?

I do not know the 1st and 2nd Age anywhere as well as the 3rd so I am less aware of lore breaking plot points…. But the more I think about the two episodes we saw today the more excited I am about how well Amazon has done.

This series so far is nothing like the disappointing, to me anyway, series that Wheel of Time or Shannara Chronicles were. This show has Academy Award level acting, screenwriting, soundtrack, special effects and costuming.

It has the potential to be far, far better than Jackson's Hobbit was. Maybe not Jackson LOTR good but pretty darned good.

But to be realistic, Game of Thrones started off strong as well and it ended… badly.

PS: No, I have not seen the GoT prequel series yet.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Also alsö wïk?

Spoiler:

**StaevinTheAeldari**

Aecus Decimus wrote:

I have almost never seen people responding to legitimate criticism of characters/stories/etc with "BUT UR RACIST". I'm sure it has happened because people say stupid stuff all the time, but most of the time when things like "you hate Finn because he's black" it's a response to people who very clearly are objecting to the character's race.

Utter bs. The Force Awakens had not been out for a day and every single gak trying to defend it was already screaming how everyone that didn't like it were only mean people hating women.

Like you'd have people bring up everything they didn't like about the movie, from the ripping off of a New Hope, to not having a jedi order, to the weak characters, weak villains and so on, and one of those things would be that they thought the characters were weak which oh no, included Rey and those defending that movie would pile on each other to scream about that one thing.

The only real push back people get for pointing out these movies are gak is name calling. There is no other response from people trying to defend it. It's never about defending the movies, it's always about making up gak about what the critics are and what they think.

**Aecus Decimus**

StaevinTheAeldari wrote:
Utter bs. The Force Awakens had not been out for a day and every single gak trying to defend it was already screaming how everyone that didn't like it were only mean people hating women.

Like you'd have people bring up everything they didn't like about the movie, from the ripping off of a New Hope, to not having a jedi order, to the weak characters, weak villains and so on, and one of those things would be that they thought the characters were weak which oh no, included Rey and those defending that movie would pile on each other to scream about that one thing.

The only real push back people get for pointing out these movies are gak is name calling. There is no other response from people trying to defend it. It's never about defending the movies, it's always about making up gak about what the critics are and what they think.

Sorry, but that is revisionist history. There was lots of reasonable discussion about the points of valid criticism with the sequels and the only time "you're racist/sexist/etc" came up was when the vocal minority of the right-wing outrage machine was in fact complaining about non-white characters, female characters, etc, and Disney being "woke" instead of giving them proper Traditional Heroes. Maybe occasionally there was some miscommunication because people are more aggressive online than they are in the real world and people who were tired of dealing with the outrage machine were a bit hasty in responding to someone who actually had nothing to do with those complaints but that wasn't any kind of standard practice. The majority of the time when people raised complaints about things like pacing, needing to read EU books for the plot to make sense, etc, fans of the movie defended it on its merits and did not respond with "UR SEXIST".

As a demonstration of this go look at some of the other threads in this forum. There have been multiple threads arguing over various sequel-related things and all of them have been focused on legitimate criticism and defense, this supposed name calling is not happening.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Argive wrote:
Just look at this wardrobe effort...
This looks like pure fan fic generic fantasy made by a comicon cosplayer..

Um, what? What cons are you going to where that is the standard for cosplay? That's a perfectly reasonable piece of professional-quality work, especially for video purposes where you won't be freezing a single frame and blowing it up to poster size to study every detail. And when you call it "generic fantasy" you should keep in mind the fact that Tolkien pretty much defined "generic fantasy" as a genre, so even things that are perfectly accurate to every single word Tolkien ever wrote will look like "generic fantasy".

Apparently this is some character who is not even part of the lore..

Well yes, that's what happens when you have an adaptation. Characters are changed, characters are removed, characters are added. If you want strict adherence to exactly the words of the original text and nothing more then go read the original book.

**Olthannon**

Watched the first episode just now. Thoroughly enjoyed it. I thought the lad who played Elrond was much better than I thought he would be. Excellent cinematography, noticed some shots with Galadriel which were deliberate nods to the lotr trilogy. Arondir is a great character, the Green Man armour that the watchers wear is very cool. I'm interested to see the way they bring Khamûl to life and how he eventually becomes one of the Nine.

I think where they really triumphed is with the Hobbits. That is a great envisioning of Tolkein's work. They are the bogles that were such a part of our folklore. These are the creatures that Tolkein took when creating Hobbits.

Interested to see how they progress with it. A great start so far.

**His Master's Voice**

As a generic fantasy show, it's okay. Certainly better than the Witcher and Wheel of Time.

As an adaptation of Tolkien's writing, it's a paper thin shell wrought in stilted dialogue and pointless, sweeping changes to clearly established canon. If you thought Gimli, the comic relief and Tauriel were bad, you won't believe what a billion dollars can buy.

Personal pet peeve - none of the elves look or behave like elves, except Arondir, who's wasted on an awful, out of place racial tension subplot right out of the Witcher.

**stonehorse**

Watched 2 episodes, it is very pretty... as in, it makes everyother show look cheap.

The bad Irish accent of the Harfoots is quite comical, and about half an episode away from one of them blurting out 'top of the morning to ya!' followed by 'to be sure, to be sure'.

Story seems quite dull/generic so far... (big evil baddie, who wants to destroy the world, because they are evil) are plotting from the shadows. Meanwhile a band of plucky heroes find their journey brings them together to fight the big bad evil.

Sound is guilty of the incressing modern trend of quite whispering, followed suddenly by loud blasting music.

At least it is pretty, that so far seems to be the main strength of the show.

After two episodes, it gets a "meh' from me so far.

**Inquisitor Gideon**

It's pretty to look at, but utter garbage as any form of adaptation. The hell was that "knife ears" scene?? Did somebody play dragon age before writing this?

**Voss**

And when you call it "generic fantasy" you should keep in mind the fact that Tolkien pretty much defined "generic fantasy" as a genre, so even things that are perfectly accurate to every single word Tolkien ever wrote will look like "generic fantasy".

Yeah, as the other grandparent to the entire genre (the other side has more murder and half-naked barbarians), it is bizarrely weird to see a Tolkien derived work as 'generic.'

Of course it is! People have been iterating these exact concepts over and over and over again for longer than anyone on this board has been alive. Groundbreaking was never an option on the table! Bands of plucky heroes thwarting dark lords is entirely the point.

His Master's Voice wrote:out of place racial tension subplot right out of the Witcher.

Yeah. There definitely wasn't any racial tension in Lord of the Rings or the Hobbit. Its so off brand. Boromir, Gimli, Thorin Oakenshield and company... They were all in for elves and such.
Nothing in the Silmarillion either. None of those tales revolved around racial tension. No one sent men off to die to prove their worth, or kidnapped anyone or had elaborate revenge schemes or anything.

**Inquisitor Gideon**

In the hobbit, no. Thorin and company went qute happily to Rivendell to chat with Elrond and such. Thranduil was acting more against intruders to his realm over them being dwarves. Also it was actually Thranduil calling for the peaceful approach concerning Erebor and Bard was the one calling for blood. It's a situation the movie actually ending up giving more depth too amusingly enough.

And it was mostly just Legolas and Gimli for the most part and not for overly long. Due to that whole ancient, minor situation of royalty murder over shiny rocks.

**Grey Templar**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I would bet the change in lore and lack of Celeborn is due to a rights issue. The show has the rights to the LOTR appendices, but NOT to the Silmarillion. Everything in the show has to be based on extrapolations from the appendices, and likely has to be changed not to include material strictly mentioned in the Silmarillion.

As I said, Celeborn is basically a footnote in the Silmarillion. The vast majority of his "on-screen" appearances is in the appendices, and even then his most important characteristic is he is her husband and father of Celebrian. So they're leaving him and Celebrian out because they are choosing to, not because they don't have the rights. If anything, Celeborn and Celebrian would be good for the showrunners to include precisely because they are so minor in terms of what is actually written about them. They're mostly blank slates, unlike Galadrial.

The appendices mention a lot of stuff also mentioned in the Silmarillion, so those other things making appearances is not out of what they have the rights to.

**Gitzbitah**

It was very good, if you don't compare it to the Lord of the Rings. And that is no bad thing. I don't think we'll ever see another production attempt to match that level of authenticity and immersion for their cast- it was something truly amazing.

This one really, really, suffers from bad armor. Spooky treeface leather for when we're keeping bad humans in line? Cardboard plate for elves? Very, very weak. Fortunately, young Galadriel is selling the cold hatred of the elves very well. I'm here for her vengeance quest.

I don't know what purpose the hobbits serve, but the hobo look and muttering about trying to be wise is great fun. It's Trailer Park Shire.

I'll definitely keep watching, very entertaining!

**Toofast**

StaevinTheAeldari wrote:
Utter bs. The Force Awakens had not been out for a day and every single gak trying to defend it was already screaming how everyone that didn't like it were only mean people hating women.

I was called all kinds of things for not liking the purple-haired lady hyperspace ramming another ship, or thinking she was a stupid character to even create because her personality was just a carbon copy of General Leia.

**Voss**

Toofast wrote:
StaevinTheAeldari wrote:
Utter bs. The Force Awakens had not been out for a day and every single gak trying to defend it was already screaming how everyone that didn't like it were only mean people hating women.

I was called all kinds of things for not liking the purple-haired lady hyperspace ramming another ship, or thinking she was a stupid character to even create because her personality was just a carbon copy of General Leia.

So... you were called out for hating the woman because you... hated the woman (sorry, 'not liked'), and not the story element of the hyper space ram? It was clearly the character's fault, not the writers, right?

The thing with criticism is directing it to the right place. That whole thing was a writing problem. It has nothing to do with the actress, 'woman' or even 'purple.' There's no reason to even mention those aspects when it comes to valid criticism.

**Grey Templar**

Voss wrote:
Toofast wrote:
StaevinTheAeldari wrote:
Utter bs. The Force Awakens had not been out for a day and every single gak trying to defend it was already screaming how everyone that didn't like it were only mean people hating women.

I was called all kinds of things for not liking the purple-haired lady hyperspace ramming another ship, or thinking she was a stupid character to even create because her personality was just a carbon copy of General Leia.

So... you were called out for hating the woman because you... hated the woman (sorry, 'not liked'), and not the story element of the hyper space ram? It was clearly the character's fault, not the writers, right?

The thing with criticism is directing it to the right place. That whole thing was a writing problem. It has nothing to do with the actress, 'woman' or even 'purple.' There's no reason to even mention those aspects when it comes to valid criticism.

Except he didn't criticize her for being a woman. He criticized her on plot grounds. Disliking a character's personality is valid critique. Disliking the actions a character takes is valid critique. Disliking the costume/visual of a character is valid critique, this includes hair color or anything else because those are within the control of the studio.

He only mentioned those characteristics to identify the character, not to slander the actress. But of course actors should not be immune to criticism on their performances. If they do a bad job, they deserve to get called out.

**BobtheInquisitor**

Grey Templar wrote:
BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I would bet the change in lore and lack of Celeborn is due to a rights issue. The show has the rights to the LOTR appendices, but NOT to the Silmarillion. Everything in the show has to be based on extrapolations from the appendices, and likely has to be changed not to include material strictly mentioned in the Silmarillion.

As I said, Celeborn is basically a footnote in the Silmarillion. The vast majority of his "on-screen" appearances is in the appendices, and even then his most important characteristic is he is her husband and father of Celebrian. So they're leaving him and Celebrian out because they are choosing to, not because they don't have the rights. If anything, Celeborn and Celebrian would be good for the showrunners to include precisely because they are so minor in terms of what is actually written about them. They're mostly blank slates, unlike Galadrial.

The appendices mention a lot of stuff also mentioned in the Silmarillion, so those other things making appearances is not out of what they have the rights to.

I stand corrected.

It’s been a long time since I read either, but wasn’t Celeborn the ship builder? I’d love to see some of his work.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Toofast wrote:
StaevinTheAeldari wrote:
Utter bs. The Force Awakens had not been out for a day and every single gak trying to defend it was already screaming how everyone that didn't like it were only mean people hating women.

I was called all kinds of things for not liking the purple-haired lady hyperspace ramming another ship, or thinking she was a stupid character to even create because her personality was just a carbon copy of General Leia.

That’s weird. I vocally hated on The Force Awakens while most of you all still loved it, and I hated the hyperramming BS that broke the setting, and no one ever called me racist or misogynistic.

**Captain Joystick**

Am I the only one who remembers an absolute deluge of 'dindu nuffin' and 'kangs' memes infesting every corner of the internet immediately after John Boyega appeared in the first seconds of the first trailer?

Whether or not I am - can we save the Star Wars discussion for the Star Wars thread? This evergreen whining about it kills every thread it touches.

**Grey Templar**

BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
BobtheInquisitor wrote:
I would bet the change in lore and lack of Celeborn is due to a rights issue. The show has the rights to the LOTR appendices, but NOT to the Silmarillion. Everything in the show has to be based on extrapolations from the appendices, and likely has to be changed not to include material strictly mentioned in the Silmarillion.

As I said, Celeborn is basically a footnote in the Silmarillion. The vast majority of his "on-screen" appearances is in the appendices, and even then his most important characteristic is he is her husband and father of Celebrian. So they're leaving him and Celebrian out because they are choosing to, not because they don't have the rights. If anything, Celeborn and Celebrian would be good for the showrunners to include precisely because they are so minor in terms of what is actually written about them. They're mostly blank slates, unlike Galadrial.

The appendices mention a lot of stuff also mentioned in the Silmarillion, so those other things making appearances is not out of what they have the rights to.

I stand corrected.

It’s been a long time since I read either, but wasn’t Celeborn the ship builder? I’d love to see some of his work.

That would be Cirdan the Shipwright. Though I can't fault you for confusion. Lots of elves with names that start with C.

Cirdan should make an appearance as he was one of the original ring bearers of the Elven Rings. He also has claim to the title of oldest living Elf in Arda, certainly in Middle Earth. He is possibly one of the 144 first elves to awaken, if not he was one of the first elven children ever born. Also, the only Elf ever described as having a BEARD!

Depending on which ratio of Tree Years to Sun Years you use(either 10-1 or 144-1), Cirdan is either 11k years old OR 62-71k years old. Tolkein changed his mind a couple times on what the exact ratio for Years of the Sun and Years of the Trees were. 144-1 is I believe the more accepted ratio.

**Vulcan**

Aecus Decimus wrote:
StaevinTheAeldari wrote:
Utter bs. The Force Awakens had not been out for a day and every single gak trying to defend it was already screaming how everyone that didn't like it were only mean people hating women.

Like you'd have people bring up everything they didn't like about the movie, from the ripping off of a New Hope, to not having a jedi order, to the weak characters, weak villains and so on, and one of those things would be that they thought the characters were weak which oh no, included Rey and those defending that movie would pile on each other to scream about that one thing.

The only real push back people get for pointing out these movies are gak is name calling. There is no other response from people trying to defend it. It's never about defending the movies, it's always about making up gak about what the critics are and what they think.

Sorry, but that is revisionist history.

Once you said this, you lost any hope I had of continuing a civilized conversation. I was THERE, I was in the thick of it, this IS WHAT HAPPENED. If anyone is revising what happened, it's you.

Best to end this now and move on, because there's nothing more either of us have to say to each other. So... bye guys, I'm out of this thread.

**Aecus Decimus**

Vulcan wrote:
Once you said this, you lost any hope I had of continuing a civilized conversation. I was THERE, I was in the thick of it, this IS WHAT HAPPENED. If anyone is revising what happened, it's you.

I was also there. I was extremely critical of the sequels as soon as they were released and very direct in explaining why they sucked. And I can't remember even a single time where I was accused of racism/sexism/etc for making that criticism. Nor do I even remember seeing those accusations being made against anyone who wasn't saying things like "Rey sucks because a woman could never beat a man in a fight" or "Finn is Disney being woke with a black character". I'm sure it happened, simply because there are enough stupid people on the internet that you can find pretty much any bad argument being made if you look hard enough, but it was in no way a regular event.

**His Master's Voice**

Voss wrote:
Yeah. There definitely wasn't any racial tension in Lord of the Rings or the Hobbit.

Presented in the manner this show does it? No, there absolutely was not.

**Thargrim**

Finished the first episode, it was...just okay. I feel like i'd like this a lot more if it was either a new fantasy setting entirely or just not LOTR. It just feels too modern, the hairstyles in many cases look like something i'd see in present day. I just don't like short haired elves, doesn't work for me. On a scenic environment level the show looks pretty great.

But i'm just not convinced the story they're trying to tell here is going to be worth my time. In contrast, I felt much stronger towards the new House of the Dragon show. Though tbh I may have a preference for more gritty and grounded stuff whether it's fantasy or sci fi. I did prefer The Expanse over ST Discovery for example...buuut then again, even The Orville was better than Discovery.

**Shadow Walker**

After watching 2 episodes I will not continue the series. It was bad even compared to Witcher. And even Wheel of Time, where I did not care about majority of the main crew, had at least 2 characters I liked. Sorry Elrond, you are not enough to save it for me.

**Mr Morden**

So second episode......

Galadriel - I like her portrayal, she does work for me a younger version. The whole sea bit was a bit odd and i really hope she is not going to be just another "love affair across races" - they have that with Elronds heritage and the Elf and the human girl......I assume she is about to be picked up by Numenor.

Elrond - I like alot

The Stranger - looks and acts like a damaged Gandalf....quite interesting - I guess they needed a reason for not-hobbits.

Dwarfs are fine.

IMO Its ok....not awesome but watchable...

**ccs**

Vulcan wrote:
Aecus Decimus wrote:
StaevinTheAeldari wrote:
Utter bs. The Force Awakens had not been out for a day and every single gak trying to defend it was already screaming how everyone that didn't like it were only mean people hating women.

Like you'd have people bring up everything they didn't like about the movie, from the ripping off of a New Hope, to not having a jedi order, to the weak characters, weak villains and so on, and one of those things would be that they thought the characters were weak which oh no, included Rey and those defending that movie would pile on each other to scream about that one thing.

The only real push back people get for pointing out these movies are gak is name calling. There is no other response from people trying to defend it. It's never about defending the movies, it's always about making up gak about what the critics are and what they think.

Sorry, but that is revisionist history.

Once you said this, you lost any hope I had of continuing a civilized conversation. I was THERE, I was in the thick of it, this IS WHAT HAPPENED. If anyone is revising what happened, it's you.

While im sure you were discussing the new SW stuff at the time, the intrrnets a big place. So are you sure you were both in the same place/discussions?

**Nevelon**

Grey Templar wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:

Which just makes me wonder: Where the feth is Celeborn? His and Galadriel's daughter marries Elrond, yet the dude's no where to be seen. Is this a rights thing? Do they literally not have the rights to Galadriel's other half?

This worries me greatly. They're almost trying to setup Elrond and Galadrial for each other. But at this stage in the lore Elrond should have already married her daughter.

They can't possibly not have the rights, we know they have the LotR and the appendices in the RotK. That is all they have. This is pretty much the only place Celeborn exists, he barely exists in the Silmarillion other than "he's Galadrial's husband".

It's possible they could introduce them later, maybe have Elrond meet Celebrian at a later date and they get married over the course of this show. Though having 2 episodes without showing Galadrial's family would be odd. They could at least have had some of Galadrial's motivation be protecting her family.

Checking the RotK appendix, Elrond marries In year 100 of the third age. As the rings of power were forged in the first half of the second age, still plenty of time to go.

**Grey Templar**

Hmm, I though it was earlier, but fair enough. Still means we should have Celeborn at the very least be here.

**Mr Morden**

Nevelon wrote:
Grey Templar wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:

Which just makes me wonder: Where the feth is Celeborn? His and Galadriel's daughter marries Elrond, yet the dude's no where to be seen. Is this a rights thing? Do they literally not have the rights to Galadriel's other half?

This worries me greatly. They're almost trying to setup Elrond and Galadrial for each other. But at this stage in the lore Elrond should have already married her daughter.

They can't possibly not have the rights, we know they have the LotR and the appendices in the RotK. That is all they have. This is pretty much the only place Celeborn exists, he barely exists in the Silmarillion other than "he's Galadrial's husband".

It's possible they could introduce them later, maybe have Elrond meet Celebrian at a later date and they get married over the course of this show. Though having 2 episodes without showing Galadrial's family would be odd. They could at least have had some of Galadrial's motivation be protecting her family.

Checking the RotK appendix, Elrond marries In year 100 of the third age. As the rings of power were forged in the first half of the second age, still plenty of time to go.

Ah interesting - it would be somewhat odd for Eldrond to have a relationship with her and then marry her daughter.....but then if you have people who live for thousands of years I guess stranger things happen.

I think its more likely though that they have her with the shipwrecked human guy.as apparently all the other elves don't like her.......

**Olthannon**

Grey Templar wrote:
Hmm, I though it was earlier, but fair enough. Still means we should have Celeborn at the very least be here.

Two episodes in, with several seasons to go past this one. Bit too excited waiting for him to turn up/ bemoan that he isn't there no?

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

I thought he was in it?