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Olthannon wrote: I wanted to check that "adjusted for modern audiences" wasn't code for "I don't like those actors being black".
Yeah, because if you just ask why would non human races (especially subterranean like dwarves) have the same racial diversity as humans then you are a racist. I wonder how all those black actors feel when they are casted there just because the showrunners need to meet the quota of black people in their productions.
Or they got cast because they are good actors and they fit the part.
Look, hiring quotas suck, but they were/are necessary until things normalize. In hollywood they have begun to normalize, but they haven't normalized yet. There is still plenty of white washing. And until the general populace just shuts the feth up about it it's going to keep getting crammed down everyones throats until it's just the expectation that the norm is casting a good actor for the right part. It is as, if not more, racist to assume they only got the part because their skin color met a quota instead of their acting ability.
And the "racial diversity" of entirely fictional "races" is utter nonsense.
1) Casting actors because they are good is what should be always done. No arguing there.
2) Making quotas based on a color of skin is racist. No matter what direction it goes. Just check the comments of the showrunners of House of the Dragon. Basically they said that the reason why House Valaryon is made of black people was that they do not want to have a show with just a bunch of white people. So it is not ok being white, and black people are treated as tokens. Pure racism there.
3) Racial diversity in fictional races is a nonsense but only if we insert our own species' rules there. Why would they follow the same biological rules as we have, and therefore look like we are? But because the quota idiocy, now every fictional fantasy race need to look like our species or be accused of racism.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/09/07 15:31:49
Olthannon wrote: I wanted to check that "adjusted for modern audiences" wasn't code for "I don't like those actors being black".
Yeah, because if you just ask why would non human races (especially subterranean like dwarves) have the same racial diversity as humans then you are a racist. I wonder how all those black actors feel when they are casted there just because the showrunners need to meet the quota of black people in their productions.
Why would they not? There's no "scientific" reason why they can't be. Tolkein himself described the Harfoots as brown/ dark skinned. Samwise Gamgee is described as brown by Tolkein and he is an Harfoot. Elves aren't all described as fair skinned. Tolkein based Numenor on the Byzantine empire.
So actually, yes. I think it is racist to whinge about the fact that these actors have different coloured skin. Just because you want your Fantasy to be white doesn't mean it is.
As for your little "ohhh what must those blackfolk think about being typecast" bollocks.
Ask them. I'm sure they'll be only to happy to respond.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/07 16:00:38
Olthannon wrote: I wanted to check that "adjusted for modern audiences" wasn't code for "I don't like those actors being black".
Yeah, because if you just ask why would non human races (especially subterranean like dwarves) have the same racial diversity as humans then you are a racist. I wonder how all those black actors feel when they are casted there just because the showrunners need to meet the quota of black people in their productions.
Why would they not? There's no "scientific" reason why they can't be. Tolkein himself described the Harfoots and brown/ dark skinned. Samwise Gamgee is described as brown by Tolkein and he is an Harfoot. Elves aren't all described as fair skinned. Tolkein based Numenor on the Byzantine empire.
So actually, yes. I think it is racist to whinge about the fact that these actors have different coloured skin. Just because you want your Fantasy to be white doesn't mean it is.
As for your little "ohhh what must those blackfolk think about being typecast" bollocks.
Ask them. I'm sure they'll be only to happy to respond.
So you already are sure that I want my fantasy to be all white? Ok, you got me. One more white supremacist discovered
If by ''accurately adapting'' you mean manipulating then yes, he was. It is a proof of what I wrote earlier - one just need to ask the ''wrong'' question to be accused of being a racist.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/07 16:36:55
TRoP was marketed along the lines of “our priority was diverse casting.” To me, that implies that the producers wanted X or X% non-white actors prior to any auditioning. That amounts to a quota. We could endlessly debate whether that is appropriate or not.
But then we would not be talking about the show.
The question as to the show is this: does diverse casting help or hinder the show, or neither or both? I’ll address this with reference to two actors/characters, Sophia Nomvete as Disa and Ismael Cruz Cordoza as Arondir.
So far, I have not perceived Nomvete’s race affecting her portrayal of Disa. In Middle-earth, there are no “white” or “black” people; rather, the relevant racial categories are Elf, Dwarf, Human, and Hobbit. Nomvete is not portraying a black woman; she is portraying a dwarven woman. Disa’s accent, mannerisms, point of view, and clothing/jewelry/hairstyle all come together as a credible portrayal of a dwarven woman. As far as I can see, the race of the actress is a neutral element. Perhaps Nomvete’s race informs her performance of Disa but if so then it is invisible to me.
Regarding Cordoza as Arondir, it is more complicated because his plot line involves an in-setting interracial relationship. Again, “black” and “white” as racial categories have no meaning in Middle-earth. By “interracial” we mean a relationship between a human woman and elven man. Cordoza is a black Peurto Rican, someone of “mixed race” in real-world terms. The character he plays, Arondir, is not (i.e., Arondir is descended from Elves only) so far as we know. Perhaps Cordoza’s race did factor into casting him as Arondir. Maybe the decision makers believed Cordoza’s racial and cultural background gives him insight into playing a character navigating interracial tension. Maybe the decision makers believed Cordoza’s appearance might facilitate the audience in comparing/contrasting real-world racial tension with racial tension in Middle-earth. I don’t know but, unlike with the role of Disa, the role of Arondir is directly dealing with in-setting racial issues.
Olthannon wrote: I wanted to check that "adjusted for modern audiences" wasn't code for "I don't like those actors being black".
Yeah, because if you just ask why would non human races (especially subterranean like dwarves) have the same racial diversity as humans then you are a racist. I wonder how all those black actors feel when they are casted there just because the showrunners need to meet the quota of black people in their productions.
Why would they not? There's no "scientific" reason why they can't be. Tolkein himself described the Harfoots as brown/ dark skinned. Samwise Gamgee is described as brown by Tolkein and he is an Harfoot. Elves aren't all described as fair skinned. Tolkein based Numenor on the Byzantine empire.
So actually, yes. I think it is racist to whinge about the fact that these actors have different coloured skin. Just because you want your Fantasy to be white doesn't mean it is.
As for your little "ohhh what must those blackfolk think about being typecast" bollocks.
Ask them. I'm sure they'll be only to happy to respond.
They were described as "swarthy", which is defined as more olive skinned or heavily tanned. So more of a Greek or Italian complexion.
Manchu wrote: This seems aimed at Galadriel in the Silmarillion, who left Valinor to establish and rule her own realms in Middle-earth. Galadriel in TRoP seems less concerned with explicit power in this regard.
Well yes, they're very different characters. By this point in time, book Galadriel have witnessed the entirety of the struggle against Morgoth, the near apocalyptic War of Wrath, have met and married Celeborn, borne a child, became a ruler of her own realm. By contrast, show Galadriel comes across as a much younger character, more a foot soldier than the the niece of Feanor in status, more brash, more callous. They don't really overlap in any meaningful way.
Manchu wrote: I think Tolkien would not consider establishing a realm to rule the same thing as seeking power
I agree. Tolkien had plenty of rulers who governed for the good of the land, not as a form self edification. However, Galadriel's reaction to the Ring makes me believe her ambition was in fact power for the sake of power. She clearly recognizes Sauron's fault in herself.
If by ''accurately adapting'' you mean manipulating then yes, he was. It is a proof of what I wrote earlier - one just need to ask the ''wrong'' question to be accused of being a racist.
It’s a call back to earlier in the thread. It’s also a comment on the accidental subtext of your posts that you seem to be unaware of.
Manchu wrote: TRoP was marketed along the lines of “our priority was diverse casting.” To me, that implies that the producers wanted X or X% non-white actors prior to any auditioning. That amounts to a quota. We could endlessly debate whether that is appropriate or not.
We've had this discussion before it was deleted by Mods before and nobody could come up with anything to support the statement that the diverse cast was one of the primary marketing tactics.
It was the case that the showrunners responded to racist attacks on the cast, but they did not make it a big deal in the first place or at least nobody has been able to provide evidence that they did.
Do you have such evidence?
If by ''accurately adapting'' you mean manipulating then yes, he was. It is a proof of what I wrote earlier - one just need to ask the ''wrong'' question to be accused of being a racist.
It’s a call back to earlier in the thread. It’s also a comment on the accidental subtext of your posts that you seem to be unaware of.
Explain then both (to what it is a call back, and what hidden subtext I am unaware of) please.
They were described as "swarthy", which is defined as more olive skinned or heavily tanned. So more of a Greek or Italian complexion.
Harfoots you mean? Having been re-reading the whole Tolkein smorgasbord in preparation for the show, I have several lines right in front of me.
“The Harfoots were browner of skin, smaller, and shorter, and they were beardless and bootless… The Stoors were broader, heavier in build; their feet and hands were larger… The Fallohides were fairer of skin and also of hair, and they were taller and slimmer than the others.” "The Harfoots had much to do with the Dwarves, they were the most normal and representative variety of Hobbit and the most numerous.
From the prologue of Fellowship.
Now, although I'm paraphrasing there for ease, that is certainly the gist as I've typed it down. Certainly a bit past swarthy. I'm swarthy. People have no issue with the portrayal of the Haradrim as non-white and the description is the same. If someone was described as having brown skin, I'd assume they weren't white. If you are so genuinely desperate to say that isn't good enough. Then I can't help you there I'm afraid. But certainly not "swarthy".
His Master's Voice wrote:
Manchu wrote: This seems aimed at Galadriel in the Silmarillion, who left Valinor to establish and rule her own realms in Middle-earth. Galadriel in TRoP seems less concerned with explicit power in this regard.
Well yes, they're very different characters. By this point in time, book Galadriel have witnessed the entirety of the struggle against Morgoth, the near apocalyptic War of Wrath, have met and married Celeborn, borne a child, became a ruler of her own realm. By contrast, show Galadriel comes across as a much younger character, more a foot soldier than the the niece of Feanor in status, more brash, more callous. They don't really overlap in any meaningful way.
My assumption here is that because they can't dwell too much on the First Age, this has been changed up to give Galadriel a more clear character arc. So we will watch how she transforms from this brash and younger Elf into the ruler of her own realm. I definitely understand why this has been criticised, but I understand the necessity behind doing so. For a long running television show, a character has to progress.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/09/07 17:20:50
Manchu wrote:TRoP was marketed along the lines of “our priority was diverse casting.” To me, that implies that the producers wanted X or X% non-white actors prior to any auditioning. That amounts to a quota. We could endlessly debate whether that is appropriate or not.
That’s a statement, not a quota.
The difference between “we’re going to gender swap and race swap so many characters, for diversity”, and having a truly open casting call.
So no “Galadriel needs a tall, lithe blonde woman with knockers of a certain preferred size”, but “Galadriel, actress required”.
And I’m still yet to see any evidence the folk cast were cast because of an intrinsic characteristic, and not because of their talent.
Now. If someone perhaps has access to a genuine casting call for the show? I might well be proven entirely wrong, and as ever would be happy to be so.
But until then, can people please stop inventing things to clutch their pearls over?
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Manchu wrote: Regarding Cordoza as Arondir, it is more complicated because his plot line involves an in-setting interracial relationship. Again, “black” and “white” as racial categories have no meaning in Middle-earth. By “interracial” we mean a relationship between a human woman and elven man. Cordoza is a black Peurto Rican, someone of “mixed race” in real-world terms. The character he plays, Arondir, is not (i.e., Arondir is descended from Elves only) so far as we know. Perhaps Cordoza’s race did factor into casting him as Arondir. Maybe the decision makers believed Cordoza’s racial and cultural background gives him insight into playing a character navigating interracial tension. Maybe the decision makers believed Cordoza’s appearance might facilitate the audience in comparing/contrasting real-world racial tension with racial tension in Middle-earth. I don’t know but, unlike with the role of Disa, the role of Arondir is directly dealing with in-setting racial issues.
To add to this: while there may or may not have been behind the scenes factors in choosing a particular actor for the role the on-camera racial elements are all perfectly in line with Tolkien's original work. It's an interracial relationship but it's made very clear that it is because it is a relationship between Men and Elves, entirely unrelated to the real-world races of the people playing those characters. It's even said explicitly by Arondir white companions that he is one of them, and they're confused that he would want to have a relationship with a Man instead of his own people.
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His Master's Voice wrote: Well yes, they're very different characters. By this point in time, book Galadriel have witnessed the entirety of the struggle against Morgoth, the near apocalyptic War of Wrath, have met and married Celeborn, borne a child, became a ruler of her own realm. By contrast, show Galadriel comes across as a much younger character, more a foot soldier than the the niece of Feanor in status, more brash, more callous. They don't really overlap in any meaningful way.
Of course when you're an immortal elf growing up takes longer. Elrond is also presented as a young and ambitious but inexperienced character. Is it a change from some of the precise details of the original story notes Tolkien wrote? Possibly. But does it make sense in the context of the show, especially given their legal inability to include certain material? Yes.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/09/07 20:55:14
Lindsey Weber, Executive Producer wrote:It felt only natural to us that an adaptation of Tolkien’s work would reflect what the world actually looks like.
I’ll note, you’re arguing with the wrong guy if you think I’m against casting non-whites in TRoP (as per the rest of my post that you quoted). But when the show’s executive producer comments that Middle-earth should “reflect what the world actually looks like” it is clear that she is talking about real-world race rather than automobiles, cell phones, and mega corporations. To me, it’s anything but “natural” that the fictional setting of Middle-earth should “reflect what the world actually looks like” in racial terms (for one thing, which part of the world?). But I also don’t mind that Amazon cast non-white actors in TRoP and, setting aside issues that are external to the show itself, I think there are some arguments that doing so may actually enhance certain story elements.
It’s a statement of intent that can only be actioned by some version, however soft, of a quota; e.g., “we need to cast some non-white actors” isn’t a specific number but it means, apart from all other qualities, the process has to result in some non-white casting.
I don’t think it is worthwhile to quibble on and on about this issue. The point of my post was to move the discussion forward to something meaningful: To what extent, if at all, does the race of an actor cast in TRoP impact the show itself, in terms of its aesthetics and themes and characterization.
From what I have seen in the first two episodes, the general answer seems to be “no impact” with a possible exception for Arondir, where the actor’s racial background may actually enhance the show.
His Master's Voice wrote: By this point in time, book Galadriel have witnessed the entirety of the struggle against Morgoth, the near apocalyptic War of Wrath, have met and married Celeborn, borne a child, became a ruler of her own realm.
It’s good to point this out because it is almost the entirety of what we know about Galadriel during the First and Second Ages from Tolkien’s work — and these biographical notes taken in part or in whole do not constitute a story. This is to my point that TRoP is not an adaptation, there being nothing available to adapt, and it is rather entirely original material that references existing elements of Tolkien’s work. If Galadriel is going to be a major protagonist of TRoP then she will have to be substantively different from the character in the Silmarillion. How then can she nonetheless still be recognizably Galadriel? It comes down to the TRoP producers articulating through her character in TRoP the same kinds of themes Tolkien articulated through her character in his work. So, like Tolkien, they present her as a kind of parallel to Sauron. Specifically, she is a character who could go down the same path as Sauron did, and for similar reasons. She’s in danger of becoming Evil despite being motivated, at the outset, by a will to do Good.
Aecus Decimus wrote: It's even said explicitly by Arondir white companions that he is one of them, and they're confused that he would want to have a relationship with a Man instead of his own people.
Yes indeed; they go so far as to explicitly say it has only happened TWICE. Now, they don’t mention who they’re talking about but fans in the audience will know they’re talking about truly extraordinary people who are at this point revered heroes: Beren and Luthien as well as Tuor and Idril, Earendil’s parents. (And fans will know that it happens at least one more time in the future, with Aragorn and Arwen.) So the implication here is less that Elves consider Men racially inferior and more that such pairings are bound up with the gravest of dooms and correspondingly rare.
This also ties in with what is so far one of TRoP’s most fascinating themes, namely that the different races of Middle-earth have intrinsic difficulty relating to each other as a result of their widely divergent experiences of time itself. It’s not just that, for example, Elves and Dwarves find each others’ cultural values strange; it’s that their very capacity to experience their lives is inherently different, giving rise to substantially different cultures. So deep misunderstandings can arise between good friends across racial lines, e.g., Elrond and Durin. Given this, an interracial relationship seems at best to be a tragedy-in-the-making, something that can only be justified by the very greatest of destinies.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2022/09/07 21:28:26
Olthannon wrote: I wanted to check that "adjusted for modern audiences" wasn't code for "I don't like those actors being black".
Yeah, because if you just ask why would non human races (especially subterranean like dwarves) have the same racial diversity as humans then you are a racist. I wonder how all those black actors feel when they are casted there just because the showrunners need to meet the quota of black people in their productions.
Or they got cast because they are good actors and they fit the part.
Look, hiring quotas suck, but they were/are necessary until things normalize. In hollywood they have begun to normalize, but they haven't normalized yet. There is still plenty of white washing. And until the general populace just shuts the feth up about it it's going to keep getting crammed down everyones throats until it's just the expectation that the norm is casting a good actor for the right part. It is as, if not more, racist to assume they only got the part because their skin color met a quota instead of their acting ability.
And the "racial diversity" of entirely fictional "races" is utter nonsense.
1) Casting actors because they are good is what should be always done. No arguing there. 2) Making quotas based on a color of skin is racist. No matter what direction it goes. Just check the comments of the showrunners of House of the Dragon. Basically they said that the reason why House Valaryon is made of black people was that they do not want to have a show with just a bunch of white people. So it is not ok being white, and black people are treated as tokens. Pure racism there.
No it's not. 1) They didn't say it wasn't okay to be white. They said they wanted diversity. Pursing diversity is not the same thing as being exclusionary. 2) The back people were not being treated as Token's. They have prominent roles that being acted well by good actors. Just casting directors are making a conscious effort to create a level playing field does not mean white people are being somehow disparaged or that POC are being given token roles.
3) Racial diversity in fictional races is a nonsense but only if we insert our own species' rules there. Why would they follow the same biological rules as we have, and therefore look like we are? But because the quota idiocy, now every fictional fantasy race need to look like our species or be accused of racism.
They already look like our species. Elves are humans with pointy ears. Dwarves are humans that are short. Halflings are also short humans but with furry feet. We are not discussing radically different species here. And if the elves showed up with orange skin and the dwarves showed up with Grey skin that "purists" would be all upset about how the fantasy races didn't look anything like how Tolken described them. As long as they are human like being played by humans there is zero reason not to use human actors to play them.
Got a problem with tolken making his races look too human? Go dig up his corpse and tell him how you feel.
If by ''accurately adapting'' you mean manipulating then yes, he was. It is a proof of what I wrote earlier - one just need to ask the ''wrong'' question to be accused of being a racist.
If your "question" is, "I bet all those black actors were just cast to fill a quota." then yes. Racist.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2022/09/08 03:56:46
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
Voss wrote: Yeah. There definitely wasn't any racial tension in Lord of the Rings or the Hobbit.
Presented in the manner this show does it? No, there absolutely was not.
nope, nothing at all.
One thing to keep in mind is that the humans we've seen thus far are NOT the Numenorians, they're the other men who, pretty much all served Morgoth the elves are BASICLY an occupying force to them
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/08 02:08:36
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
TBF I do not think that you can really get into the animosity towards "forced" diversity casting without going too political for DakkaDakka. The root causes for resentment have not been addressed in this thread or on this forum ever...so far as I know and it is not as simple as "the complainers are racist."
The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy
trexmeyer wrote: TBF I do not think that you can really get into the animosity towards "forced" diversity casting without going too political for DakkaDakka. The root causes for resentment have not been addressed in this thread or on this forum ever...so far as I know and it is not as simple as "the complainers are racist."
If it's not racism then what is it? Are the producers lowering their standards to get a member of a particular minority into the cast at all costs, even if they suck at acting? Nope. So far the non-white actors have done just fine, and certainly no worse than the white actors. Are they mixing in real-world racial issues where they don't belong? Nope. To the extent that race matters at all it's only in the ways that are well established in Tolkien's original works: Men vs. Elves vs. Dwarves. So tell me, where exactly is this resentment coming from? How has "forced diversity" harmed the complainers in any meaningful way, other than having to suffer the horror of seeing non-white characters in a popular show?
(Spoiler: it's all about racism.)
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/08 03:33:01
trexmeyer wrote: TBF I do not think that you can really get into the animosity towards "forced" diversity casting without going too political for DakkaDakka. The root causes for resentment have not been addressed in this thread or on this forum ever...so far as I know and it is not as simple as "the complainers are racist."
If it's not racism then what is it? Are the producers lowering their standards to get a member of a particular minority into the cast at all costs, even if they suck at acting? Nope. So far the non-white actors have done just fine, and certainly no worse than the white actors. Are they mixing in real-world racial issues where they don't belong? Nope. To the extent that race matters at all it's only in the ways that are well established in Tolkien's original works: Men vs. Elves vs. Dwarves. So tell me, where exactly is this resentment coming from? How has "forced diversity" harmed the complainers in any meaningful way, other than having to suffer the horror of seeing non-white characters in a popular show?
(Spoiler: it's all about racism.)
Tolkien wrote LotR to provide his country with a new mythology heavily inspired by Scandinavian and Germanic mythology. The casting is not true to the source material. It is not complicated.
Edit: I don't see how it's any different than saying that there shouldn't be any white actors or characters cast in Mulan or Aladdin or other non-European story.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/08 04:06:32
The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy
trexmeyer wrote: Tolkien wrote LotR to provide his country with a new mythology heavily inspired by Scandinavian and Germanic mythology. The casting is not true to the source material. It is not complicated.
Could you post the canon sources where Tolkien states that his stories have only Scandanavian/Germanic people in the world? Is this something Tolkien himself said, or is this a case of you assuming that "inspired by" means "does not deviate at all from"?
Also, why does this change upset you so much more than all of the other changes that have been made?
Edit: I don't see how it's any different than saying that there shouldn't be any white actors or characters cast in Mulan or Aladdin or other non-European story.
You do know that Middle Earth is a fictional world, right? And that Aladdin and Mulan are set in the real world? And if you want to complain that the show goes beyond a European setting then shouldn't you also be upset about the existence of elves, dwarves, and hobbits, given the fact that none of those things existed in the real Europe?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/08 04:08:29
I was not aware that the real world had flying carpets and djinn and magic and strangely intelligent monkeys and talking dragons and ancestor spirits that actually help out their descendants.
The only way we can ever solve anything is to look in the mirror and find no enemy
trexmeyer wrote: I was not aware that the real world had flying carpets and djinn and magic and strangely intelligent monkeys and talking dragons and ancestor spirits that actually help out their descendants.
Set in the real world, not real events. Mulan is a retelling of a specific Chinese story about to a (supposed) actual person and the Disney movie is still set in China even if it is an "alternate history" China where certain Chinese mythological elements are real creatures and not mere stories. It is absolutely appropriate that it would not have non-Chinese actors or characters who would not have existed in 4th-6th century China. Rings of Power and Tolkien's original works, on the other hand, are set in an entirely fictional world which does not exist in reality. Middle Earth and the stories set in it may borrow some elements from Scandinavian/Germanic mythology but it is inspiration, nothing more. The stories are not set there, nor do they exclusively borrow from those cultures.
But, once more:
Could you post the canon sources where Tolkien states that his stories have only Scandinavian/Germanic people in the world? Is this something Tolkien himself said, or is this a case of you assuming that "inspired by" means "does not deviate at all from"?
Also, why does this change upset you so much more than all of the other changes that have been made?
trexmeyer wrote: TBF I do not think that you can really get into the animosity towards "forced" diversity casting without going too political for DakkaDakka. The root causes for resentment have not been addressed in this thread or on this forum ever...so far as I know and it is not as simple as "the complainers are racist."
If it's not racism then what is it? Are the producers lowering their standards to get a member of a particular minority into the cast at all costs, even if they suck at acting? Nope. So far the non-white actors have done just fine, and certainly no worse than the white actors. Are they mixing in real-world racial issues where they don't belong? Nope. To the extent that race matters at all it's only in the ways that are well established in Tolkien's original works: Men vs. Elves vs. Dwarves. So tell me, where exactly is this resentment coming from? How has "forced diversity" harmed the complainers in any meaningful way, other than having to suffer the horror of seeing non-white characters in a popular show?
(Spoiler: it's all about racism.)
Tolkien wrote LotR to provide his country with a new mythology heavily inspired by Scandinavian and Germanic mythology. The casting is not true to the source material. It is not complicated.
Edit: I don't see how it's any different than saying that there shouldn't be any white actors or characters cast in Mulan or Aladdin or other non-European story.
The difference is a history of White Washing. Things don't instantly snap into perfect place where the only casting done is by merit. If Asian, Black, Middle Eastern, First Nation actors were not constantly passed over for white actors since the invention of cinema there wouldn't be anything to complain about. But since they have been the pendulum needs to swing the other way, and they need to fight for opportunity and representation. Eventually the pendulum should settle in the middle and none of it should really matter unless it's something where it inherently does. We ain't there yet. And ensuring that the minorities get their fair share in the meantime is just them getting their dues.
These are my opinions. This is how I feel. Others may feel differently. This needs to be stated for some reason.
trexmeyer wrote: TBF I do not think that you can really get into the animosity towards "forced" diversity casting without going too political for DakkaDakka. The root causes for resentment have not been addressed in this thread or on this forum ever...so far as I know and it is not as simple as "the complainers are racist."
If it's not racism then what is it? Are the producers lowering their standards to get a member of a particular minority into the cast at all costs, even if they suck at acting? Nope. So far the non-white actors have done just fine, and certainly no worse than the white actors. Are they mixing in real-world racial issues where they don't belong? Nope. To the extent that race matters at all it's only in the ways that are well established in Tolkien's original works: Men vs. Elves vs. Dwarves. So tell me, where exactly is this resentment coming from? How has "forced diversity" harmed the complainers in any meaningful way, other than having to suffer the horror of seeing non-white characters in a popular show?
(Spoiler: it's all about racism.)
Tolkien wrote LotR to provide his country with a new mythology heavily inspired by Scandinavian and Germanic mythology. The casting is not true to the source material. It is not complicated.
Edit: I don't see how it's any different than saying that there shouldn't be any white actors or characters cast in Mulan or Aladdin or other non-European story.
The difference is a history of White Washing. Things don't instantly snap into perfect place where the only casting done is by merit. If Asian, Black, Middle Eastern, First Nation actors were not constantly passed over for white actors since the invention of cinema there wouldn't be anything to complain about. But since they have been the pendulum needs to swing the other way, and they need to fight for opportunity and representation. Eventually the pendulum should settle in the middle and none of it should really matter unless it's something where it inherently does. We ain't there yet. And ensuring that the minorities get their fair share in the meantime is just them getting their dues.
Ah, yes. Nothing like some affirmative action like hiring people based on race because the sins of the father are being passed onto the son. I never get this logic that somehow discriminating against white people makes up for discrimination against minorities in the past. Two wrongs don't make a right, and doing it so blatantly only ensures further marginalization for people to go towards extremism and actual "systemic racism" that you ironically are supposed to be against. Oh, you say "we ain't there yet" but who gets to decide that? When you set up fundamentally discriminatory practices framed within the context of "we know better than you", it's not something that's just going to go away when people profit from it and it's unsurprising that people are sick of it and frankly insulting to minorities like myself that we need (typically self-righteous white) people to give us handouts because we're seen as so inferior to white actors. It's the exact same thing they've been doing with diversity hires in university where even people in the sciences are being forced to follow EDI requirements to even get funding for grants.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/09/08 04:39:11
Grimskul wrote: I never get this logic that somehow discriminating against white people makes up for discrimination against minorities in the past.
It doesn't, but that's not the point of it. The purpose is to counter the demonstrated fact* that discrimination against non-white people, against women, etc, still happens and will continue to happen without active efforts to overcome that bias. Removing the unfair advantage that white people/men/etc have is not discrimination against them, it's simply attempting to return to a level playing field where the best-qualified candidate gets the job. And in the context of Rings of Power I don't think anyone can make a credible argument that even if diversity was a factor in casting decisions the result was unfair towards white actors, or that the non-white actors that were hired are not qualified for the job or have given poor performances.
*For example, if you submit an identical resume under a white-sounding name and a non-white-sounding name the one the companies assume is a white person will get better results.
