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2022/12/26 03:31:11
Subject: Re:Azrael vaults over the Rubicon Primaris...
People, this thread is about the new Azrael miniature, not about what is or is not a Daemon Prince or about what rumors might or might not be validated. Take that discussion somewhere, anywhere else for feth's sake!
On topic, as a Dark Angels player I just about creamed my pants seeing the new Azrael. It's totally awesome and faithful to the original. My only regret is that it's probably months away from release. It could also mean the Lion is coming, but that is a discussion for another thread (hint hint guys...).
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/7/24, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~16000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Imperial Knights: ~2300 | Leagues of Votann: ~1300 | Tyranids: ~3400 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000 | Kruleboyz: ~3500 | Lumineth Realm-Lords: ~700
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2024: 40 | Total models painted in 2025: 23 | Current main painting project: Tomb Kings
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The Grotsnik Corp Bump Feelerer 9,000. It only looks like several bricks crudely gaffer taped to a cricket bat.
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2022/12/26 05:37:13
Subject: Azrael vaults over the Rubicon Primaris...
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: I like everything except the bolter, it looks like trash. The Magazine placement is awful
To be fair, have you seen the original?
The previous one (shown above) looks like a photoshop fail.
At first glance the new one looks at least feasible.
I could believe it had some crazy feed mechanism, but the lack of an ejection port is a bit disturbing.
Personally, it's the magazine not being linked to the bolter muzzle that keeps cracking me up.
That certainly seems stupid considering how modern guns work, but I think you can handwave that away with "crazy feed mechanism". Like maybe there's something going on inside that pulls the rounds into the chamber rather than your typical bolt stripping a round out of the magazine. But even assuming that, still need to get the spent cases out.
2022/12/26 07:25:01
Subject: Azrael vaults over the Rubicon Primaris...
Albertorius wrote: I find it hilarious how all the rubiconed characters survive the process and not a single one buys the farm, given how "dangerous" it was supposed to be...
I imagine that as they did it more and more, they refined the process.
2022/12/26 07:26:26
Subject: Azrael vaults over the Rubicon Primaris...
How knows how many faceless, nameless grunts died on the operating table so that good ole Albert Z Rell could become a Primaris.
Y'know, I'd actually kind of like it if the 9th edition fluff was that Azrael died on the operating table and this is Steve but he's calling himself Azrael now and everyone is going along with it cause let's face it it's been a tough millennium and we all need to cope somehow.
I’m not seeing anything saying Azrael must be your Warlord.
Is that normal for such a high ranking Astartes? Because if not, might that be another string to the rumour bow re The Lion’s return?
As far as I can tell, the only ones that have that stipulation are Primarchs and Abaddon.
Yeah this seems to be a supreme commander thing. Azrael & other chapter master current rules don't require them to be warlords.
Roll Three Dice wrote: Edit: also, new-ish user here, is it normal for this place to have a rumour thread derailed for multiple pages to argue semantics in an unrelated topic? Because I can get that on Reddit.
Yeah but at least on Reddit that stuff will get downvoted and hidden. Here anything unrelated to the original topic requires multiple-page thread derails!
Kid_Kyoto wrote: How knows how many faceless, nameless grunts died on the operating table so that good ole Albert Z Rell could become a Primaris.
Y'know, I'd actually kind of like it if the 9th edition fluff was that Azrael died on the operating table and this is Steve but he's calling himself Azrael now and everyone is going along with it cause let's face it it's been a tough millennium and we all need to cope somehow.
In fact that's my new head canon.
I'm now choosing to believe that Corvin Severax didn't survive the process, and instead they made up a story about him fighting Shadowsun.
2022/12/26 10:35:18
Subject: Azrael vaults over the Rubicon Primaris...
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I could believe it had some crazy feed mechanism, but the lack of an ejection port is a bit disturbing.
To be fair, it was designed back in the days when GW still recognised bolters as firing caseless ammunition.
Is it that old? I think ever since 3rd edition bolters have had ejection ports.
Azrael came with the Angels of Death codex in 2nd ed. I think that was in '96, maybe '97.
I'm dubious of that caseless ammo thing, though. Even in 2nd ed fluff the marksman honor was made from spent bolter cases, which is kind of hard to do if you universally treat bolters as shooting caseless ammo.
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Why is the rum always gone?
2022/12/26 12:11:08
Subject: Azrael vaults over the Rubicon Primaris...
Albertorius wrote: I find it hilarious how all the rubiconed characters survive the process and not a single one buys the farm, given how "dangerous" it was supposed to be...
I imagine that as they did it more and more, they refined the process.
That kind of talk is heresy. The process was perfect from the beginning. Clearly these named characters all have a superior strength of will to survive the process, and any Astartes who died were found wanting.
She/Her
"There are no problems that cannot be solved with cannons." - Chief Engineer Boris Krauss of Nuln
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H.B.M.C. wrote: The fluff mentioned caseless a bunch of times, but even artwork from that time shows streams of shells coming off of bolters.
The artwork was inconsistent. Many of the images had flames spurting from the front of them without any cases flying, but some artwork did have cases. It probably comes down to individual artists either not knowing the fluff or not knowing how firearms work. The models themselves back in 2nd edition didn't have ejection ports, I think maybe the Rogue Trader era ones did have? I don't any models from pre-2nd edition and don't have any good pics. I think it was the 3rd edition plastics when ejection ports got added back in.
I'm sure there's a lot of people in GW who don't know how guns work... but some of the old GW guys back in the day definitely had some knowledge about war, weapons and history. Many of the designers from back then have gone on to write rules for historic games, and/or were writing rules for historic games before they were writing fantasy/sci-fi rules for GW. But there was probably enough people who didn't know to let inconsistencies slip through.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: I could believe it had some crazy feed mechanism, but the lack of an ejection port is a bit disturbing.
To be fair, it was designed back in the days when GW still recognised bolters as firing caseless ammunition.
Is it that old? I think ever since 3rd edition bolters have had ejection ports.
Azrael came with the Angels of Death codex in 2nd ed. I think that was in '96, maybe '97.
I'm dubious of that caseless ammo thing, though. Even in 2nd ed fluff the marksman honor was made from spent bolter cases, which is kind of hard to do if you universally treat bolters as shooting caseless ammo.
For some reason I thought Azrael was remade, but yeah, looks like he's in my 1998 Citadel Annual.
If that's the case... I guess the model is fine, lol. There just needs to be a feed mechanism to bring the rounds up to the firing chamber (which could be mechanical, it could be vacuum, it could be magnetic, it could be scifi magic) then it'd be consistent with 2nd edition Bolters to not have an ejection port.
The new Azrael looks a bit off simply in the sense that the ejection port looks too close to the rear of the gun for the bolt to have space to travel back and eject the spent case, but maybe some space magic there or maybe the proportions don't come across properly in the images.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/12/26 17:02:43
2022/12/26 17:03:41
Subject: Azrael vaults over the Rubicon Primaris...
H.B.M.C. wrote: The fluff mentioned caseless a bunch of times, but even artwork from that time shows streams of shells coming off of bolters.
I have asked this before, but what fluff says bolters were caseless?
I have trawled through the RT rule book, the compilation book, the 2nd edition rules and wargear book and the Angels of Death book and nowhere does it note bolters as caseless. By comparison the RT auto gun entry states it up front. However, pretty sure that all artwork of Assault cannon in particular have also had casings pouring out
H.B.M.C. wrote: The fluff mentioned caseless a bunch of times, but even artwork from that time shows streams of shells coming off of bolters.
I have asked this before, but what fluff says bolters were caseless?
I have trawled through the RT rule book, the compilation book, the 2nd edition rules and wargear book and the Angels of Death book and nowhere does it note bolters as caseless. By comparison the RT auto gun entry states it up front. However, pretty sure that all artwork of Assault cannon in particular have also had casings pouring out
I get the feeling this might be a self perpetuating myth at this point
Can someone please put me out of my misery
I'm sure I read it somewhere in a codex, but maybe I dreamt it up, lol, or maybe my brain just interpreted "missile bullet" to mean caseless.
I remember having discussions about it back in the day, maybe it came from the models themselves not having a way to get casings out?
As for Assault Cannons, I don't think it's stated that they function the same as Bolters? I thought in the fluff they were just conventional bullets of smaller calibre fired at high velocity and high rate of fire.
EDIT: Or as you say, maybe I'm getting mixed up with the autoguns.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/12/26 17:19:26
2022/12/26 17:23:12
Subject: Azrael vaults over the Rubicon Primaris...
H.B.M.C. wrote: The fluff mentioned caseless a bunch of times, but even artwork from that time shows streams of shells coming off of bolters.
I have asked this before, but what fluff says bolters were caseless?
I have trawled through the RT rule book, the compilation book, the 2nd edition rules and wargear book and the Angels of Death book and nowhere does it note bolters as caseless. By comparison the RT auto gun entry states it up front. However, pretty sure that all artwork of Assault cannon in particular have also had casings pouring out
I get the feeling this might be a self perpetuating myth at this point
Can someone please put me out of my misery
As with you, I can't remember anything saying bolters were caseless in any fluff. Assault cannons were certainly mentioned a number of times to be caseless, despite all the artwork showing them spewing out hundreds of cases. The current Dread base even has a bunch of spent cases sculpted on it!
2022/12/26 17:29:18
Subject: Azrael vaults over the Rubicon Primaris...
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: I like everything except the bolter, it looks like trash. The Magazine placement is awful
To be fair, have you seen the original?
That's always bugged me because without the notch in the top left corner, that'd be a plausible-looking bullpup feed, but with it, it looks all sorts of wrong. It feels a bit like they had to add the notch there to be able to tuck the gun under Azrael's shoulder plate on the original model.
I now want to see some Marines with Sten Bolters, tho... :-D
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2022/12/26 19:28:36
The supply does not get to make the demands.
2022/12/26 23:44:03
Subject: Azrael vaults over the Rubicon Primaris...
Do we know the fluff of his transition. It seems most of the main characters are mortally wounded, then instead of being interned into a dreadnought go through this super dangerous procure and survive despite being on deaths door.
Yes, i still hate everything to do with primaris fluff. Could of just said hay look at this shiny new mark of armour and been done with it. Also will we see pureblood marines get MK9 one day?
The new model is nice, because its such a close copy of the original.
it's the quiet ones you have to look out for. Their the ones that change the world, the loud ones just take the credit for it.
2022/12/26 23:56:47
Subject: Azrael vaults over the Rubicon Primaris...
VictorVonTzeentch wrote: I like everything except the bolter, it looks like trash. The Magazine placement is awful
To be fair, have you seen the original?
That's always bugged me because without the notch in the top left corner, that'd be a plausible-looking bullpup feed, but with it, it looks all sorts of wrong. It feels a bit like they had to add the notch there to be able to tuck the gun under Azrael's shoulder plate on the original model.
I now want to see some Marines with Sten Bolters, tho... :-D
That's exactly what happened. "IRL" the gun is complete, just like a power sword wouldn't be three inches thick and a chainsword would have more than ten teeth.
2022/12/27 01:53:51
Subject: Azrael vaults over the Rubicon Primaris...
TalonZahn wrote: So people are cranky about a "bullpup" design bolter?
I think people were mostly complaining about the old gun not having the magazine aligned with the barrel, and the new gun having the magazine sticking outwards.
That shoots 30mm rocket rounds.....
19mm....
That would clearly require a case, regardless of being used in a Gatling gun or an automatic bolter....
Not sure why it would "need" a case. Could have a solid fast burning propellant surrounding the bullet to get it out of the barrel, then internal propellant that continues to accelerate it when it leaves.
41,000 years in the future.......
...yes?
People like to overanalyse sci-fi and fantasy, welcome to the internet, you must be new here
2022/12/27 06:58:17
Subject: Azrael vaults over the Rubicon Primaris...
TalonZahn wrote: So people are cranky about a "bullpup" design bolter?
I think people were mostly complaining about the old gun not having the magazine aligned with the barrel, and the new gun having the magazine sticking outwards.
That shoots 30mm rocket rounds.....
19mm....
That would clearly require a case, regardless of being used in a Gatling gun or an automatic bolter....
Not sure why it would "need" a case. Could have a solid fast burning propellant surrounding the bullet to get it out of the barrel, then internal propellant that continues to accelerate it when it leaves.
41,000 years in the future.......
...yes?
People like to overanalyse sci-fi and fantasy, welcome to the internet, you must be new here
A quick google indicates the existence of a 1.1” 75 calibre gun, but this is a naval weapon where the bore diameter is 1.1” and the 75 refers to the length of the barrel.
We all know they are show with casings, Skink was jet making the point that 41k years in the future, that caseless is a potential option, but building on my earlier point I’m not sure it’s ever been clearly recorded.
The original does have a wee plasma chamber just in front of the grip, but it does seem likely that they footled with tue magazine location to help align with the newer plasma design. The bullpup would be too hard to slot in under the arm again more than likely.
Please excuse any spelling errors. I use a tablet frequently and software keyboards are a pain!
The only thing gw would have to do to Make it "work" is put the mag up a bit and a straight line from the barrel back.
There perfectly acceptable bullpup combi plasma bolter.
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GW:"Space marines got too many options to balance, therefore we decided to legends HH units." Players: "why?!? Now we finally got decent plastic kits and you cut them?" Chaos marines players: "Since when are Daemonengines 30k models and why do i have NO droppods now?" GW" MONEY.... erm i meant TOO MANY OPTIONS (to resell your army to you again by disalowing former units)! Do you want specific tyranid fighiting Primaris? Even a new sabotage lieutnant!" Chaos players: Guess i stop playing or go to HH.
2022/12/27 09:04:44
Subject: Azrael vaults over the Rubicon Primaris...
TalonZahn wrote: So people are cranky about a "bullpup" design bolter?
I think people were mostly complaining about the old gun not having the magazine aligned with the barrel, and the new gun having the magazine sticking outwards.
That shoots 30mm rocket rounds.....
19mm....
That would clearly require a case, regardless of being used in a Gatling gun or an automatic bolter....
Not sure why it would "need" a case. Could have a solid fast burning propellant surrounding the bullet to get it out of the barrel, then internal propellant that continues to accelerate it when it leaves.
41,000 years in the future.......
...yes?
People like to overanalyse sci-fi and fantasy, welcome to the internet, you must be new here
Outter casing isnt included in the size of the round going down the barrel.
Besides, .75 Cal being 28mm is way off. Its 19.5mm roughly, so falling in the middle range of 12 gauge Shotgun slugs. If .50cal is 12.7mm, an additional .25 would not equal more than double the .50 cal.
Fun fact, your link mentions some of the older Bolters being .50 cal
2022/12/27 10:05:20
Subject: Azrael vaults over the Rubicon Primaris...
Huh, funny, he's just shown after I begin working on my old Dark Angels veterans I bought like ten years ago. He looks pretty good! Staying mainly true to the original mini from so long ago. It's about time GW finally update him!
Though I'm not too impressed with his helmetless head, but that could be due to the paint job more than anything. But the lack of much expression isn't good; the first one had a great roaring expression that made me like the mini a lot as a kid. I'm also glad he has hair, as so much art has depicted him having a shaved head in the codex etc. lol.
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After his organisation is hired to hunt down an influential gang leader on the Hive world, Omnartus. Attelus Kaltos is embroiled deeper into the complex world of the Assassin. This is the job which will change him, for better or for worse. Forevermore. Chapter 1.
The Angaran Chronicles: Hamar Noir. After coming back from a dangerous mission which left his friend and partner, the werewolf: Emilia in a coma. Anargrin is sent on another mission: to hunt down a rogue vampire. A rogue vampire with no consistent modus operandi and who is exceedingly good at hiding its tracks. So much so even the veteran Anargrin is forced into desperate speculation. But worst of all: drive him into desperate measures. Measures which drives Anargrin to wonder; does the ends, justify the means?
2022/12/27 13:29:17
Subject: Azrael vaults over the Rubicon Primaris...
So Yarrick is the only classic character so far in post 8e to not have cheated by crossing it and died instead? Shame. This was a perfect time to introduce new chapter leads while still keeping the classics as an option earlier in the time jump crusade.
People, this thread is about the new Azrael miniature, not about what is or is not a Daemon Prince or about what rumors might or might not be validated. Take that discussion somewhere, anywhere else for feth's sake!
~16000 Astra Militarum: 
~1200 | Imperial Knights: 
~2300 | Leagues of Votann: 
~1300 | Tyranids: 
~3400 | Stormcast Eternals: 
~5000 | Kruleboyz: 
~3500 | Lumineth Realm-Lords: 
~700
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