40k Balance Datasheet - Q1 2023

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Agusto**

But what if you don't have a unit of Lascannon Devs or a bunch of extra magnetized Thunderhammers? Making a few, specific, unit upgrades broken by making them free is not a good way to make an army better. All it will do is make EVERY unit look exactly the same until SM 10th Ed drops. And then the latest hots will be cold again. If you are a tournament player and find it ok to always change gear/units/lists, well, I guess there are ways to make this update really, really good. But even us casual player would have liked to have our lists at least slightly improved. I play 5 armies for 40K, and by far the one I enjoy the most is my Dark Angels one. But playing an Old Marine Greenwing (not all DA are pure Deathwing!) had me at a straight 15 lose streak. AoC gave my ordinary tactical squads and such stuff as Assault Marines just that amount of staying power needed to do something.

Will there be SM-lists that will become stronger? Will certain units become broken? Absolutely! Will SM win tournaments? Most likely. I just wish that SM had become stronger over all. AoC gave us this, and now that that is gone, we are down to spamming Lascannons and Thunderhammers. Oh, and also, only play Primaris because... money. But that became clear years and years ago.

**Leo_the_Rat**

Dudeface wrote:
Tsons are priced to encompass their abilities (in theory) and are not immune to deny the witch

They can make it so that you are not allowed to take a deny the witch roll (or something equivilant to that) and with all the bonii they get as a practical matter it is difficult to deny what would otherwise be a middling dice roll (like a 7 being rolled but it counts as a 9). Also they usually have so many psykers on the table that unless you're using some special character they will probably be able to deny your abilities while you, at best get to try to negate 1 or 2 of theirs.

**Crimson**

Yeah, I'm not trilled about these power level points. It just massively narrows the options that are competitive.

**SemperMortis**

Agusto wrote:
But what if you don't have a unit of Lascannon Devs or a bunch of extra magnetized Thunderhammers? Making a few, specific, unit upgrades broken by making them free is not a good way to make an army better. All it will do is make EVERY unit look exactly the same until SM 10th Ed drops. And then the latest hots will be cold again. If you are a tournament player and find it ok to always change gear/units/lists, well, I guess there are ways to make this update really, really good. But even us casual player would have liked to have our lists at least slightly improved. I play 5 armies for 40K, and by far the one I enjoy the most is my Dark Angels one. But playing an Old Marine Greenwing (not all DA are pure Deathwing!) had me at a straight 15 lose streak. AoC gave my ordinary tactical squads and such stuff as Assault Marines just that amount of staying power needed to do something.

Will there be SM-lists that will become stronger? Will certain units become broken? Absolutely! Will SM win tournaments? Most likely. I just wish that SM had become stronger over all. AoC gave us this, and now that that is gone, we are down to spamming Lascannons and Thunderhammers. Oh, and also, only play Primaris because... money. But that became clear years and years ago.

Only play Primaris....

Intercessors went from 20ppm to 18ppm. Tac Marines (old Marines) stayed at 18ppm. Ready for the difference? Intercessors gained...nothing. In fact they lost AoC, so dropping 2ppm isn't even that bad considering. On the flip side of this, those Tac Marines which didn't get a points drop? Yeah, they just gained a free Heavy weapon/Special Weapon and free upgrades on the Sgt. So those 5 Intercessors are as good as before (sgt gets his free upgrades) but those 5 Tac Marines? They get a 20pt Multi-melta for free. So before 90pts of Tac Marines wasn't really that great, its now equipped with a MM and a kitted out Sgt for 90pts, compared to the intercessors whose only real advantage is +1 attack but are now as cheap as the Tac Marines. So you can take 5 Intercessors for the same price as 5 Tac Marines but the difference is the Intercessors get +5 attacks where as the Tac marines get a Multi-Melta or Plasma Cannon, Missile Launcher, Lascannon, Heavy Bolter or a Grav Cannon. I would call that a ridiculously good trade off.

As far as your other concern? This is a competitive 40k update, GW has publicly stated multiple times that these updates are for competitive 40k, IE the tournament scene, not casual play. You are under no obligations to play by these rules, you can stick to AoC, you can stick to 7th you can do whatever you like. The point is that this was meant to level the playing field and realistically it just tilted the ice completely in favor of Marines. (My opinion).

**Agusto**

"As far as your other concern? This is a competitive 40k update, GW has publicly stated multiple times that these updates are for competitive 40k, IE the tournament scene, not casual play. You are under no obligations to play by these rules, you can stick to AoC, you can stick to 7th you can do whatever you like. The point is that this was meant to level the playing field and realistically it just tilted the ice completely in favor of Marines. (My opinion) "

Agree with you 100%

Still think that AoC was a better way of leveling the playing field. (My opinion)

And yes, Intercessors might be even worse than Tacs right now, but given how many points the rest of the Primaris line are getting, I still think that they will be in a better spot than Old Marines.

Also, still think that free Thunderhammers and Lascannons is a really lazy, and bad, way to create balance.

**Daedalus81**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
A Lascannon shouldn't be free.

When is the last time you've seen someone take a LC on a squad though?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grimskul wrote:
Big oof to Harlequins, I feel bad for the guys, that's a pretty damn big nerf.

I'm really curious to see how much of an effect it will have. Clearly they still were dominating. Will people just drop them instead of giving it a whirl?

**SemperMortis**

Agusto wrote:
"As far as your other concern? This is a competitive 40k update, GW has publicly stated multiple times that these updates are for competitive 40k, IE the tournament scene, not casual play. You are under no obligations to play by these rules, you can stick to AoC, you can stick to 7th you can do whatever you like. The point is that this was meant to level the playing field and realistically it just tilted the ice completely in favor of Marines. (My opinion) "

Agree with you 100%

Still think that AoC was a better way of leveling the playing field. (My opinion)

And yes, Intercessors might be even worse than Tacs right now, but given how many points the rest of the Primaris line are getting, I still think that they will be in a better spot than Old Marines.

Also, still think that free Thunderhammers and Lascannons is a really lazy, and bad, way to create balance.

It is lazy, it is bad, and ironically it didn't balance the game at all. I honestly predict Marines to run away on the tournament scene like they did at the end of 8th. But to your other point about Primaris, they got points cuts but its still damn good for old Marines.

Eradicators get Free MM and Heavy Melta Rifles. on a Max squad of 6 that is 40pts of free stuff. So the unit went from 310pts to 270pts. Those Devastators went from 165 to 115. And again, the Sgt gets up to 20pts of Free upgrades on top of that if you want. So compare the two units, both have ROUGHLY the same mission albeit from difference angles. Eradicators dropped 13% in price, Devastators dropped 24.25% and if you equip the Sgt they dropped 32.4%

Terminators just dropped 5ppm and get free upgrades now, So a squad of 5 just went from 220pts with a Cyclone missile Launcher and Teleport Homer to 165pts. 55pts cut or a 25% price reduction. I can keep going, but the point is that from what I can see, Old Marines got the better deal.

**EviscerationPlague**

Daedalus81 wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
A Lascannon shouldn't be free.

When is the last time you've seen someone take a LC on a squad though?

Why does it matter when it's obviously better than the Bolter?

**SemperMortis**

Daedalus81 wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
A Lascannon shouldn't be free.

When is the last time you've seen someone take a LC on a squad though?

Honestly? Not this edition. The better question you should ask though is how often you see Marine players taking Token 5man troop squads to fill out requirements? Well, now those same units can have 30-40pts of Free upgrades because reasons. If we applied your logic to Ork units, how often did you see ANY heavy weapon on an Ork boyz squad? The answer is NEVER. So what did GW do? They made the Big shoota free...its actually a side grade to a choppa at best...and since we want to be in CC its a nerf and they made the Rokkit 5ppm instead of 10. So they brought it back to the old points value it used to have and even then it was rarely seen since BS5 in a game where -1 to hit is all over the place means its just not worth it. So why didn't my Rokkit become free? Why didn't they buff big shootas to be Dakka 5/8?

Daedalus81 wrote:
Automatically Appended Next Post:

Grimskul wrote:
Big oof to Harlequins, I feel bad for the guys, that's a pretty damn big nerf.

I'm really curious to see how much of an effect it will have. Clearly they still were dominating. Will people just drop them instead of giving it a whirl?

Honestly I think this will kill them outright, they relied exclusively on -1 to hit and army wide 4+ invuln to have durability. With it going to a 5+ they should have gotten at least a couple points drops

**H.B.M.C.**

I love how in the 40m "Metawatch" video they point out that the Tyranid changes are there to emphasise the "horde" nature of the faction, and to encourage people to take more of the little bugs.

Except that Termagants and Hormagaunts stayed 7 and 8 points a piece (respectively), and the one HQ that's meant to go with/supplement/fit thematically with them - the Tervigon - went up 20 points.

First good Codex in 5 editions (at least) and they've done nothing but rip it apart ever since...

Daedalus81 wrote:
When is the last time you've seen someone take a LC on a squad though?

How is that your response? You know this isn't about Lascannons specifically. Lascannons are just an example. I could have picked any weapon option available to any squad that suddenly doesn't have to pay points for it.

They're upgrades. They shouldn't be free. The only time an upgrade should be free is if its a lateral shift in power (ie. giving up something for something that's different but generally equal in power). Boltgun to Lascannon is not a lateral shift.

**Agusto**

"It is lazy, it is bad, and ironically it didn't balance the game at all. I honestly predict Marines to run away on the tournament scene like they did at the end of 8th"

I honestly fear that we are one step away from GW beginning with free units again, like with the transports for the SM Demi-Company. Once you start handing out free gear, free units aren't impossible.

"Hey Steve, do you know what would make us sell a lot more more Primaris Repulsors?"
"I don't know Gary, perhaps make the rules bett..."
"Exactly Steve, make them cost zero points in any SM list!"

**Tyran**

SemperMortis wrote:

I honestly predict Marines to run away on the tournament scene like they did at the end of 8th.

I'm unconvinced. They still have extremely weak datasheets, specially without AoC.

**tauist**

Cool, lots of free stuff for my firstborn! With the points reductions, I'll be able to fit more vehicles into my list

Where are the balance updates for IA Compendium units though? They didn't get any changes?

**Daedalus81**

Tyel wrote:
Possibly overstating it, but triple Gladiator Lancers could be interesting at just 125 points a model. Sure, don't really synergise with much (basically always the issue of Marine tanks), but 125 points for 12 T8 3+ wounds, and 2 S10 dark lances (with +1 to hit), potentially 12 S4 shots and a slightly odd autocannon seems kind of reasonable.

Meanwhile 30 point aggressors also feels... aggressively cheap.

I can see marines doing well. Game is certainly more deadly now, which kind of sucks.

Death Guard got screwed.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

H.B.M.C. wrote:
How is that your response? You know this isn't about Lascannons specifically. Lascannons are just an example. I could have picked any weapon option available to any squad that suddenly doesn't have to pay points for it.

They're upgrades. They shouldn't be free. The only time an upgrade should be free is if its a lateral shift in power (ie. giving up something for something that's different but generally equal in power). Boltgun to Lascannon is not a lateral shift.

That's sound logic, in general. The thing is that a lascannon wasn't a shift in power, because it robbed from elsewhere in the army and so was never taken.

**Insularum**

Daedalus81 wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
A Lascannon shouldn't be free.

When is the last time you've seen someone take a LC on a squad though?

The flip side of this will soon become "when did you last see a flamer or chainsword?" The answer is never as objectively better free gear will always be taken.

**tauist**

How long does it usually take for these points updates to propagate into the WH+ army builder app?

**Dudeface**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
I love how in the 40m "Metawatch" video they point out that the Tyranid changes are there to emphasise the "horde" nature of the faction, and to encourage people to take more of the little bugs.

Except that Termagants and Hormagaunts stayed 7 and 8 points a piece (respectively), and the one HQ that's meant to go with/supplement/fit thematically with them - the Tervigon - went up 20 points.

First good Codex in 5 editions (at least) and they've done nothing but rip it apart ever since...

Daedalus81 wrote:
When is the last time you've seen someone take a LC on a squad though?
How is that your response? You know this isn't about Lascannons specifically. Lascannons are just an example. I could have picked any weapon option available to any squad that suddenly doesn't have to pay points for it.

They're upgrades. They shouldn't be free. The only time an upgrade should be free is if its a lateral shift in power (ie. giving up something for something that's different but generally equal in power). Boltgun to Lascannon is not a lateral shift.

Conversely would 14 ppm tac marines be sensible?

**nekooni**

Tyran wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

I honestly predict Marines to run away on the tournament scene like they did at the end of 8th.

I'm unconvinced. They still have extremely weak datasheets, specially without AoC.

SemperMortis wrote:

The point is that this was meant to level the playing field and realistically it just tilted the ice completely in favor of Marines. (My opinion).

Marines were still well below 50% win rate with AoC from any metric I've seen recently. Much better than without AoC, but still below average.

What this update does well is prop up trash tier units (eg Lascan Devastators, Repulsors) and boost Devastator doctrine chapters.
What this update also is most likely to do is bring the while faction down. roughly 10% in points drops will not make up for AoC, especially when the best units aren't dropping by 10%.

IH and BA might be fine (+-5% from 50% WR), but everyone else?

**Dudeface**

Insularum wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
A Lascannon shouldn't be free.

When is the last time you've seen someone take a LC on a squad though?

The flip side of this will soon become "when did you last see a flamer or chainsword?" The answer is never as objectively better free gear will always be taken.

The better pointed gear was always taken. The answer is to simply not have intentionally bad guns in the first place

**EviscerationPlague**

Dudeface wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
I love how in the 40m "Metawatch" video they point out that the Tyranid changes are there to emphasise the "horde" nature of the faction, and to encourage people to take more of the little bugs.

Except that Termagants and Hormagaunts stayed 7 and 8 points a piece (respectively), and the one HQ that's meant to go with/supplement/fit thematically with them - the Tervigon - went up 20 points.

First good Codex in 5 editions (at least) and they've done nothing but rip it apart ever since...

Daedalus81 wrote:
When is the last time you've seen someone take a LC on a squad though?
How is that your response? You know this isn't about Lascannons specifically. Lascannons are just an example. I could have picked any weapon option available to any squad that suddenly doesn't have to pay points for it.

They're upgrades. They shouldn't be free. The only time an upgrade should be free is if its a lateral shift in power (ie. giving up something for something that's different but generally equal in power). Boltgun to Lascannon is not a lateral shift.

Conversely would 14 ppm tac marines be sensible?

Well you basically get that with new darlings Votaan.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also only thirty I get from this is that Black Templars make use of that free 5++ again. In fact, I think a majority of my list got a point cut. Aggressors at 30 is bonkers.

**Daedalus81**

Insularum wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
H.B.M.C. wrote:
A Lascannon shouldn't be free.

When is the last time you've seen someone take a LC on a squad though?

The flip side of this will soon become "when did you last see a flamer or chainsword?" The answer is never as objectively better free gear will always be taken.

Chainswords are just standard equipment. Basic flamers still need some solving as even with D6+3 shots you really wouldnt use them much unless you could equip the whole unit. Same reason why four lascannons don't do much to the old ork horde. They're very "optimized" weapons.

**NinthMusketeer**

I'm liking it, with my TWarriors points costs making sense rather than just being worse than sword/spits for no benefit I can bring them into boarding actions without feeling screwed. Good time to be devourer/rendyclaws!

**SemperMortis**

Tyran wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

I honestly predict Marines to run away on the tournament scene like they did at the end of 8th.

I'm unconvinced. They still have extremely weak datasheets, specially without AoC.

Ready for a wonderfully stupid list that exemplifies how ridiculous this is? Please note I don't play Marines and am relying on Battlescribe for legality.

Captain: Stormshield/TH: 95pts (add whatever relics/WL trait etc)
Librarian: Combi-Melta 80pts

Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts
Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts
Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts

Sternguard Vet Squad: 2 Combi-Melta, 2 Multi-Melta and Sgt W/ Combi-Melta and PF 100pts
Sternguard Vet Squad: 2 Combi-Melta, 2 Multi-Melta and Sgt W/ Combi-Melta and PF 100pts
Sternguard Vet Squad: 2 Combi-Melta, 2 Multi-Melta and Sgt W/ Combi-Melta and PF 100pts

Bike Squad: 2xMeltagun Sgt W/combi-Melta 90pts (Possibly a free attack Bike since it doesn't assign pts value, though I doubt it)
Bike Squad: 2xMeltagun Sgt W/combi-Melta 90pts
Bike Squad: 2xMeltagun Sgt W/combi-Melta 90pts

Devastator Squad: Cherub, 4x Lascannon Sgt W/Thunder Hammer and Plasma Pistol 115pts
Devastator Squad: Cherub, 4x Lascannon Sgt W/Thunder Hammer and Plasma Pistol 115pts
Devastator Squad: Cherub, 4x Lascannon Sgt W/Thunder Hammer and Plasma Pistol 115pts

That is 1,360pts. In Battlescribe that is 2,000pts currently. That means I can take another 640pts of stuff, so lets take this further. I'll use detachment shenanigans to give myself more slots, so lets take 3 more Tac Squads for 270pts and then finish off with 2 squads of Terminators for funsies. I'll give each one a Cyclone missile Launcher for free and a teleport homer and 1 squad will have 6 instead of 5. That puts me at 1993pts.

Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts
Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts
Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts

Terminator Squad: 4x w/sgt and Cyclone Missile Launcher 165pts
Terminator Squad: 5x w/sgt and Cyclone Missile Launcher 198pts

In battlescribe though, that puts me at 2883pts.

So to summarize, that is 6 Tac squads with 6 Multi-Meltas and 6 Combi Meltas, 3 Sternguard Squads with 6 Multi-Meltas and 9 Combi-Meltas, 3 Bike Squads with 3 Combi Meltas, 3 Devastator squads with 12 Lascannons and 2 Terminator squads with 2 Cyclone Missile launchers. Oh, and 6 Free Thunder Hammers, 3 Free powerfists and 3 free Plasma Pistols.

Grand total is 12 Multi-Meltas, 19 Combi-Meltas, 6 meltas, 12 Lascannons, 2 cyclone Missile Launchers and a partridge in a pear tree. 883 free points of upgrades in a 2kpt game. But yeah, i get why you are "unconvinced"

**Skywave**

I love how the Tyranids Warriors Barbed Strangler option got a 5pts increase (from 5 to 10pts), but the Venom Cannon stayed at 5pts each. Maybe I didn't see it and Barbed was the new hot stuff in the competitive front? The Venom is a clearly better option in my view! Otherwise it's fine that they priced some wargear on the Warriors instead of the base cost (but still weird as everyone and their mother get free upgrades now), but I hate that simplistic "multiple of 5" way they do it now.

Raveners never looked like they were consistent pick either, why such a harsh cost bump? They look decent, but every time I consider taking them I'm always thinking "why not just Warriors instead". Same for other stuff that got nerfed randomly. Tervigon, Hive Guards (what?), Trygon. Zoanthrope I can understand but again, they went too hard instead of going small then seeing how it plays out. Guess end-of-edition made them go "whatever" and they swung hard just because.

The spore mine thing is weird. Tervigon can still spawn 10 Termagants "for free". If spamming free spore mine is an issue, there's other way to fix that than this. Without a price cut for at least Biovores and Sporocysts, that's a bad fix.

Also another weird discrepancy, all tanks (at least for Thousand Sons) got the upgrade Combi-Bolter and Havoc Launcher for free (Rhino, both Predators, Land Raider, even the Defiler), except the Vindicator. Why? What have Vindicator done to get that!

**Tyran**

Raveners were a consistent pick at the competitive level. 10-15 Ravener lists were extremely common.

Still it is so dumb they got 10+ base increase but deathspitters remain free.

**xttz**

Skywave wrote:

The spore mine thing is weird. Tervigon can still spawn 10 Termagants "for free". If spamming free spore mine is an issue, there's other way to fix that than this. Without a price cut for at least Biovores and Sporocysts, that's a bad fix.

As I understand there was a meta list that involved spamming free spore mines to prevent an opponent's movement, which was obviously unpleasant to play against.

The same kind of shenanigans aren't possible with the once-per-game new gaunt unit, although the Tervigon still did eat a points increase ( probably to discourage taking multiples).

**Rihgu**

SemperMortis wrote:
Tyran wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:

I honestly predict Marines to run away on the tournament scene like they did at the end of 8th.

I'm unconvinced. They still have extremely weak datasheets, specially without AoC.

Ready for a wonderfully stupid list that exemplifies how ridiculous this is? Please note I don't play Marines and am relying on Battlescribe for legality.

Captain: Stormshield/TH: 95pts (add whatever relics/WL trait etc)
Librarian: Combi-Melta 80pts

Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts
Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts
Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts

Sternguard Vet Squad: 2 Combi-Melta, 2 Multi-Melta and Sgt W/ Combi-Melta and PF 100pts
Sternguard Vet Squad: 2 Combi-Melta, 2 Multi-Melta and Sgt W/ Combi-Melta and PF 100pts
Sternguard Vet Squad: 2 Combi-Melta, 2 Multi-Melta and Sgt W/ Combi-Melta and PF 100pts

Bike Squad: 2xMeltagun Sgt W/combi-Melta 90pts (Possibly a free attack Bike since it doesn't assign pts value, though I doubt it)
Bike Squad: 2xMeltagun Sgt W/combi-Melta 90pts
Bike Squad: 2xMeltagun Sgt W/combi-Melta 90pts

Devastator Squad: Cherub, 4x Lascannon Sgt W/Thunder Hammer and Plasma Pistol 115pts
Devastator Squad: Cherub, 4x Lascannon Sgt W/Thunder Hammer and Plasma Pistol 115pts
Devastator Squad: Cherub, 4x Lascannon Sgt W/Thunder Hammer and Plasma Pistol 115pts

That is 1,360pts. In Battlescribe that is 2,000pts currently. That means I can take another 640pts of stuff, so lets take this further. I'll use detachment shenanigans to give myself more slots, so lets take 3 more Tac Squads for 270pts and then finish off with 2 squads of Terminators for funsies. I'll give each one a Cyclone missile Launcher for free and a teleport homer and 1 squad will have 6 instead of 5. That puts me at 1993pts.

Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts
Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts
Tac Marines: Multi-Melta, Sgt W/Combi-Melta and TH - 90pts

Terminator Squad: 4x w/sgt and Cyclone Missile Launcher 165pts
Terminator Squad: 5x w/sgt and Cyclone Missile Launcher 198pts

In battlescribe though, that puts me at 2883pts.

So to summarize, that is 6 Tac squads with 6 Multi-Meltas and 6 Combi Meltas, 3 Sternguard Squads with 6 Multi-Meltas and 9 Combi-Meltas, 3 Bike Squads with 3 Combi Meltas, 3 Devastator squads with 12 Lascannons and 2 Terminator squads with 2 Cyclone Missile launchers. Oh, and 6 Free Thunder Hammers, 3 Free powerfists and 3 free Plasma Pistols.

Grand total is 12 Multi-Meltas, 19 Combi-Meltas, 6 meltas, 12 Lascannons, 2 cyclone Missile Launchers and a partridge in a pear tree. 883 free points of upgrades in a 2kpt game. But yeah, i get why you are "unconvinced"

Do you think that list is "worth" 2883 points?

**tauist**

No offense but that list sounds boring af. Maybe that list wins games, no idea, would never field it nor play against one. Cheese will always be cheese

**Rihgu**

It's basically a mixed battle company + veteran company, a very fluffy marine list. Based on equipment, seems like they're fighting a very mechanized enemy force - possibly a stompa mob or traitor tank force? something like that.

If it's boring, it's because space marines are boring, I guess. My guess would be that it wouldn't win top-level games.

**xttz**

Rihgu wrote:

Do you think that list is "worth" 2883 points?

That list wasn't even worth the 2883 words it took to explain in a post.