40k Balance Datasheet - Q1 2023

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**Platuan4th**

cuda1179 wrote:
Marines are faster and more durable and more flexible.

More durable is debatable since Votann get AP reduction and Marines don't.

**JNAProductions**

Platuan4th wrote:
cuda1179 wrote:
Marines are faster and more durable and more flexible.

More durable is debatable since Votann get AP reduction and Marines don't.

Warriors start at a 4+, though.

**Lammia**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
SemperMortis wrote:
883 free points of upgrades in a 2kpt game. But yeah, i get why you are "unconvinced"
Thank you, Semper, for so succinctly putting into words exactly why this change is so utterly absurd.

883 points worth of stuff for free. It's a shame that people can't see past "But that's a bad list!" without realising that the lists power doesn't matter: The fact that it suddenly gets damn near 900 points worth of upgrades for free is the problem. That sort of gak shouldn't be free.

Taking thunder hammers and plasma pistols everywhere shouldn't happen because it's stupid - and it's certainly not effective in things like Dev Squads - but you can because it's free and why the hell not? You don't lose anything for taking them because you're not making a choice. You're not giving anything up. You're not paying for the upgrade.

Any system where the sacrifice is meaningless is a bad system. I've been saying this since the second 3rd Ed Guard Codex came out (20 years ago this year!). In order to get the best Doctrines in that book, you had to give up a bunch of units, units that were generally recognised to be terrible anyway. And if you're giving up something you were never going to take in the first place, and get an advantage for "giving up" that thing, then you're not really giving anything up. You're just getting an advantage, for free, with no consequences.

Free upgrades sits in the same area. It's terrible game design and 100% on brand for the writers at GW who still, after 36 years of this, can't manage to be at all consistent for even a full edition...

It's always been a meaningless choice though.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

usernamesareannoying wrote:
Noob question, sorry guys.
Armor of contempt is gone?
Where was it even added, the last update?
I forget.

This time last year

**EviscerationPlague**

JNAProductions wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:
cuda1179 wrote:
Marines are faster and more durable and more flexible.

More durable is debatable since Votann get AP reduction and Marines don't.
Warriors start at a 4+, though.

In an edition of the game where even Fleshborers have an AP value?
Yeah, a 4+ with -1AP incoming and no reroll to wound allowed is a lot better than a 3+.

**JNAProductions**

EviscerationPlague wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:
cuda1179 wrote:
Marines are faster and more durable and more flexible.

More durable is debatable since Votann get AP reduction and Marines don't.
Warriors start at a 4+, though.

In an edition of the game where even Fleshborers have an AP value?
Yeah, a 4+ with -1AP incoming and no reroll to wound allowed is a lot better than a 3+.

You do realize that a 3+ against -1 AP is the same as a 4+?

The ONLY durability benefit they have built-in baseline is no rerolling wounds.

But, lemme put it this way. Assuming a S5 AP-1 D1 weapon hitting on a 4+, like the aforementioned Fleshborer, you'd need 120 shots to kill 10 MEQ. You'd need 66 shots to kill 10 Hearthkyn.
If you give them RR1s to wound, that drops to 103 shots to kill the MEQ.
If you give them FULL rerolls to-wound, that drops to 90 shots.

Notice how 90 is bigger than 66.

Edit: A S4 AP-1 D1 weapon is a bit better, if full rerolls to-wound are granted.
The numbers are 80 hits (no rerolls, MEQ), 54 (full rerolls, MEQ) and 44 (Warriors).

A S3 AP-1 D1 weapon is even better, relatively.
120 hits, 72 hits, and 66 hits.

And finally, a S1 or S2 AP-1 D1 weapon...
240 hits, 131 hits, and 132 hits.

So, if the weapon is both wounding them on 6s AND has full rerolls to wound while being AP-1 or better, the Marines are less durable to a D1 weapon.
Care to find an example of that?

**Sledgehammer**

Does anyone know if Forgeworld data sheets ever get updated? The vendetta is still sitting at bs4 when the new valkyrie i at bs3.

**ccs**

Sledgehammer wrote:
Does anyone know if Forgeworld data sheets ever get updated? The vendetta is still sitting at bs4 when the new valkyrie i at bs3.

They get updated occasionally.

**Matt.Kingsley**

Whenever the GW team remembers it's their job
And whenever the intern they hand it off to gets spare time between coffee runs and being the dartboard for rules-changes after that

**EviscerationPlague**

JNAProductions wrote:
EviscerationPlague wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
Platuan4th wrote:
cuda1179 wrote:
Marines are faster and more durable and more flexible.

More durable is debatable since Votann get AP reduction and Marines don't.
Warriors start at a 4+, though.

In an edition of the game where even Fleshborers have an AP value?
Yeah, a 4+ with -1AP incoming and no reroll to wound allowed is a lot better than a 3+.
You do realize that a 3+ against -1 AP is the same as a 4+?

The ONLY durability benefit they have built-in baseline is no rerolling wounds.

But, lemme put it this way. Assuming a S5 AP-1 D1 weapon hitting on a 4+, like the aforementioned Fleshborer, you'd need 120 shots to kill 10 MEQ. You'd need 66 shots to kill 10 Hearthkyn.
If you give them RR1s to wound, that drops to 103 shots to kill the MEQ.
If you give them FULL rerolls to-wound, that drops to 90 shots.

Notice how 90 is bigger than 66.

Edit: A S4 AP-1 D1 weapon is a bit better, if full rerolls to-wound are granted.
The numbers are 80 hits (no rerolls, MEQ), 54 (full rerolls, MEQ) and 44 (Warriors).

A S3 AP-1 D1 weapon is even better, relatively.
120 hits, 72 hits, and 66 hits.

And finally, a S1 or S2 AP-1 D1 weapon...
240 hits, 131 hits, and 132 hits.

So, if the weapon is both wounding them on 6s AND has full rerolls to wound while being AP-1 or better, the Marines are less durable to a D1 weapon.
Care to find an example of that?

You're not taking into account the fact that even Fleshborers are AP-1.

AP- is legit rarer than AP-1. You're paying for a 3+ that's negated. The bump to 13 points a model helps alleviate that, but make no mistake that, without AoC, a single Tactical or Intercessor is absolutely not worth two Votaan that are near the same price.

**JNAProductions**

Um…

13+13=26
18=18

Two Warriors are just shy of half again the cost of a single Tac Marine. And they don’t get free upgrades, while Tac Marines do.

**H.B.M.C.**

Sledgehammer wrote:
Does anyone know if Forgeworld data sheets ever get updated? The vendetta is still sitting at bs4 when the new valkyrie i at bs3.

Be careful what you wish for. Next thing you know the Hierodules will be back to being Lords of War...

**EviscerationPlague**

JNAProductions wrote:
Um…

13+13=26
18=18

Two Warriors are just shy of half again the cost of a single Tac Marine. And they don’t get free upgrades, while Tac Marines do.

Did you miss the part where I said the bump to 13 points alleviates the issue?

**GiToRaZor**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Sledgehammer wrote:
Does anyone know if Forgeworld data sheets ever get updated? The vendetta is still sitting at bs4 when the new valkyrie i at bs3.
Be careful what you wish for. Next thing you know the Hierodules will be back to being Lords of War...

Exactly. On the onew hand I would wish that they update the artillery pieces, now that GW was finally bothered to give us actual artillery rules (as giant Heavy Weapons Team). But then I remember that accoding to FW, the difference between the self propelled Basilisk and its stationary counterpart, that has only half the hitpoints, less toughness and no mobility at all, is a meagre 10pts discount. Yes the occasional good or even OP rules do happen. But in general you are being punished if FW updates something.

**Moopy**

Ever since they've moved to this endlessly shifting points format I've had zero interest in playing 40k. I want a codex that works. I don't want to have to find if there's a random "rebalancing" every 27 minutes.

Thank god for HH.

**Dudeface**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Sledgehammer wrote:
Does anyone know if Forgeworld data sheets ever get updated? The vendetta is still sitting at bs4 when the new valkyrie i at bs3.
Be careful what you wish for. Next thing you know the Hierodules will be back to being Lords of War...

Given they're not really any bigger or heavier armed than a tyrannofex, that'd be a head scratcher.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Moopy wrote:
Ever since they've moved to this endlessly shifting points format I've had zero interest in playing 40k. I want a codex that works. I don't want to have to find if there's a random "rebalancing" every 27 minutes.

Thank god for HH.

Define work? The codex does work, all these changes are technically optional anyway and HH sadly doesn't represent any xenos.

**xttz**

Sledgehammer wrote:
Does anyone know if Forgeworld data sheets ever get updated? The vendetta is still sitting at bs4 when the new valkyrie i at bs3.

They haven't really been changing IA unit statlines like this during an edition. The only revisions these units get are bare minimum amendments to keywords & abilities so they work with new codexes as they're replaced.

I expect the next IA FAQ will be done after the guard and/or WE codexes is released.

**Red Corsair**

Removed - rule #1 please..

**GiToRaZor**

Moopy wrote:
Ever since they've moved to this endlessly shifting points format I've had zero interest in playing 40k. I want a codex that works. I don't want to have to find if there's a random "rebalancing" every 27 minutes.

Thank god for HH.

Well I have stopped 40K for different reasons, but I wouldn't mind this point if 1) The App wasn't garbage and 2) would actually reflect all those changes on time and 3) the changes would at least be consistent. Compare Terminators, Chaos Terminators and Bullgryns and you can see a clear bias.It's good that they monitor external and internal balance. Previously if your codex was bad you had to wait 4 years to have a meaningful update. But I think there is something wrong with their statistic models.

What I see a lot more worrying though is that increasingly squads get their entire loadout for free. We are slowly aproaching AoS first edition levels of balancing.

**Some_Call_Me_Tim**

Well, deathwatch vets are kinda fethed as a unit now. Because they’re 27 (!) points a model now it basically makes their already useless bolters (cause special issue ammo wasn’t dumpstered enough in 9th) way worse, the shotgun garbage, and the sniper garbage. Unless you’re spamming out storm shield thunder hammer/combi weapon vets they just kinda suck.

**Tsagualsa**

Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Well, deathwatch vets are kinda fethed as a unit now. Because they’re 27 (!) points a model now it basically makes their already useless bolters (cause special issue ammo wasn’t dumpstered enough in 9th) way worse, the shotgun garbage, and the sniper garbage. Unless you’re spamming out storm shield thunder hammer/combi weapon vets they just kinda suck.

Deathwatch are unfortunately a prime candidate for getting the axe in the next edition - they do not really have a unique presence on the board outside of their flyer, and that can easily be rolled into sth. like an inquisition/agents codex or even made available to all marines. As it stands now, they're just another 'Marines+' force that does not have much going for them, specifically. Shame, because their background is awesome and they could be made worthwhile, but some pruning of the MEQ factions is probably necessary.

**Wayniac**

We all know these changes really aren't optional. The vast majority of people are going to take it as an errata/update whether they play tournaments or in a mate's garage. This is why balancing over the most degenerate of competitive lists is awful for the game. Just a constant treadmill of chasing their own tail for people who don't give a gak and will just jump to the next FOTM.

Whole I think losing AoC is ultimately a bad thing I like that there's no more having to look at an online only document for a critical rule. They need to stop that crap. The game's convoluted enough without having to hunt various places for the rules.

**Tsagualsa**

Wayniac wrote:
We all know these changes really aren't optional. The vast majority of people are going to take it as an errata/update whether they play tournaments or in a mate's garage. This is why balancing over the most degenerate of competitive lists is awful for the game. Just a constant treadmill of chasing their own tail for people who don't give a gak and will just jump to the next FOTM.

Whole I think losing AoC is ultimately a bad thing I like that there's no more having to look at an online only document for a critical rule. They need to stop that crap. The game's convoluted enough without having to hunt various places for the rules.

It certainly looks like they're in the process of giving up on even trying to balance stuff by individual points costs of options and gearing up for a more 'power level'-like modus of balance. In practice that means mostly that the only thing that hampers a rapid devolution towards the most 'meta' lists is the real-world cost of modelling and painting the most powerful combinations. That's just lazy game design and overall bad for competitive play, and probably bad for more relaxed play, secondary market and modelling projects too.

**Lammia**

Wayniac wrote:
We all know these changes really aren't optional. The vast majority of people are going to take it as an errata/update whether they play tournaments or in a mate's garage. This is why balancing over the most degenerate of competitive lists is awful for the game. Just a constant treadmill of chasing their own tail for people who don't give a gak and will just jump to the next FOTM.

Whole I think losing AoC is ultimately a bad thing I like that there's no more having to look at an online only document for a critical rule. They need to stop that crap. The game's convoluted enough without having to hunt various places for the rules.

Every modern game has critical rule updates online. I don't understand the hostility towards fixing problems that are missed in development...

**Wayniac**

If they're gonna do that then just make the wargear free but limit it to what's in the box. Would be better than having "options" that are free but the comp players will just spam the next anyway

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lammia wrote:
Wayniac wrote:
We all know these changes really aren't optional. The vast majority of people are going to take it as an errata/update whether they play tournaments or in a mate's garage. This is why balancing over the most degenerate of competitive lists is awful for the game. Just a constant treadmill of chasing their own tail for people who don't give a gak and will just jump to the next FOTM.

Whole I think losing AoC is ultimately a bad thing I like that there's no more having to look at an online only document for a critical rule. They need to stop that crap. The game's convoluted enough without having to hunt various places for the rules.
Every modern game has critical rule updates online. I don't understand the hostility towards fixing problems that are missed in development...

due to HOW they do it. They're only balancing based on whatever tournament lists do "too well"

**Some_Call_Me_Tim**

Tsagualsa wrote:
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Well, deathwatch vets are kinda fethed as a unit now. Because they’re 27 (!) points a model now it basically makes their already useless bolters (cause special issue ammo wasn’t dumpstered enough in 9th) way worse, the shotgun garbage, and the sniper garbage. Unless you’re spamming out storm shield thunder hammer/combi weapon vets they just kinda suck.

Deathwatch are unfortunately a prime candidate for getting the axe in the next edition - they do not really have a unique presence on the board outside of their flyer, and that can easily be rolled into sth. like an inquisition/agents codex or even made available to all marines. As it stands now, they're just another 'Marines+' force that does not have much going for them, specifically. Shame, because their background is awesome and they could be made worthwhile, but some pruning of the MEQ factions is probably necessary.

Honestly, I’m all for them going into an inquisitorial force type thing, it would help them feel a bit more unique, 8th was nice because of the limited options for the deathwatch tbh.

**Tsagualsa**

Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Tsagualsa wrote:
Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Well, deathwatch vets are kinda fethed as a unit now. Because they’re 27 (!) points a model now it basically makes their already useless bolters (cause special issue ammo wasn’t dumpstered enough in 9th) way worse, the shotgun garbage, and the sniper garbage. Unless you’re spamming out storm shield thunder hammer/combi weapon vets they just kinda suck.

Deathwatch are unfortunately a prime candidate for getting the axe in the next edition - they do not really have a unique presence on the board outside of their flyer, and that can easily be rolled into sth. like an inquisition/agents codex or even made available to all marines. As it stands now, they're just another 'Marines+' force that does not have much going for them, specifically. Shame, because their background is awesome and they could be made worthwhile, but some pruning of the MEQ factions is probably necessary.

Honestly, I’m all for them going into an inquisitorial force type thing, it would help them feel a bit more unique, 8th was nice because of the limited options for the deathwatch tbh.

On the same page, Grey Knights are a permanent problem child as well, they barely make sense as an independent force, have artificially inflated pseudo-differentiation between their various MEQ squads, and suffer from permanently oscillating between being not really good against demons or being ridiculously overpowered in the anti-demon matchup because they need to be priced for the average game against any random enemy. Just prune them down to PA squad, TA squad, characters and the Dreadknight and put them into the Inquisition dex.

**Lammia**

Wayniac wrote:
If they're gonna do that then just make the wargear free but limit it to what's in the box. Would be better than having "options" that are free but the comp players will just spam the next anyway

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Lammia wrote:
Wayniac wrote:
We all know these changes really aren't optional. The vast majority of people are going to take it as an errata/update whether they play tournaments or in a mate's garage. This is why balancing over the most degenerate of competitive lists is awful for the game. Just a constant treadmill of chasing their own tail for people who don't give a gak and will just jump to the next FOTM.

Whole I think losing AoC is ultimately a bad thing I like that there's no more having to look at an online only document for a critical rule. They need to stop that crap. The game's convoluted enough without having to hunt various places for the rules.
Every modern game has critical rule updates online. I don't understand the hostility towards fixing problems that are missed in development...
due to HOW they do it. They're only balancing based on whatever tournament lists do "too well"

Because Tournament is where things break and where 'skill issue' is the least variable. So that's the easiest basis to use to nerf overpeformers and buff underpeformers.

**The_Real_Chris**

Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:
Well, deathwatch vets are kinda fethed as a unit now. Because they’re 27 (!) points a model now it basically makes their already useless bolters (cause special issue ammo wasn’t dumpstered enough in 9th) way worse, the shotgun garbage, and the sniper garbage. Unless you’re spamming out storm shield thunder hammer/combi weapon vets they just kinda suck.

I think they expect everyone to spam that. Well and maybe a frag cannon squad.

**Not Online!!!**

Yeah, but the ammount of what GW needs to "correct" compared to what other companies need to correct and the fact that GW has also to correct day ONE (cue FAQ cue Votann) does show that their product is shoddy in this regard.

**The_Real_Chris**

Some_Call_Me_Tim wrote:

Honestly, I’m all for them going into an inquisitorial force type thing, it would help them feel a bit more unique, 8th was nice because of the limited options for the deathwatch tbh.

Unfortunately, an inquisition codex is too much fun for GW and they want separate armies.

But I can dream of a big book with

Generic
Inquisitorial Storm Troopers
Assassins
Other agents
Inquisitorial aligned space marines (make them all first born...)

Hereticus
Sisters of Battle
Adeptus Ministorum

Malleus
Grey Knights

Xenos
Deathwatch (should never have included Primaris)